Swap Character sex 5.0

[peter_plankskull]

See, the thing I don't get about posts like this, is I just don't see people complaining about Theron/Lana/Koth being able to go either way. So who are the people who actually care? It seems they largely exist in the land of hypotheticals. Or, I suppose more likely, they exist in the land of "I'm afraid of pre-existing characters changing in some way."

 

To be fair, those 3 companions are unique in the playing field, we have more than two handfuls of other love interest companions to balance everything out. Not everyone should be straight, bi, or gay, it should each be different for each player, however all companions should not bend to the players will.

[Rolodome]

To be fair, those 3 companions are unique in the playing field, we have more than two handfuls of other love interest companions to balance everything out. Not everyone should be straight, bi, or gay, it should each be different for each player, however all companions should not bend to the players will.

Yeah, but it seems to me like if the vanilla companions had been like Theron/Lana/Koth from the start, basically no one would be complaining about it, at least not at this stage.

 

I think what gets people going is the thought that their old companions could somehow change. I mean, look at the stuff about Jaesa and wanting her alignment to be the same as what the player originally chose when she returns.

[Frenesi]

Yeah, but it seems to me like if the vanilla companions had been like Theron/Lana/Koth from the start, basically no one would be complaining about it, at least not at this stage.

 

I think what gets people going is the thought that their old companions could somehow change. I mean, look at the stuff about Jaesa and wanting her alignment to be the same as what the player originally chose when she returns.

 

After DA2 and Anders? No. **** unisex companions in Bioware games. They are extremely incompetent at doing them. And it clutters dialogue wheel limiting my already limited roleplay options. Female knights already were complaining about not being able to communicate with Doc properly - no reason to give same problems to males.

 

I mean, c'mon. When talking to Theron, I can only tell him how we are BFFs (me being DS5 inquisitor), how I hate him and want to kill him (me trying to play SMART DS5 inquisitor), or confess secret love? Yay... Regardless of sex of said inquisitor to be honest.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Frenesi

[Rolodome]

After DA2 and Anders? No. **** unisex companions in Bioware games. They are extremely incompetent at doing them. And it clutters dialogue wheel limiting my already limited roleplay options. Female knights already were complaining about not being able to communicate with Doc properly - no reason to give same problems to males.

 

I mean, c'mon. When talking to Theron, I can only tell him how we are BFFs (me being DS5 inquisitor), how I hate him and want to kill him (me trying to play SMART DS5 inquisitor), or confess secret love? Yay... Regardless of sex of said inquisitor to be honest.

I don't understand this as an argument against it, tbh. It sounds like you want companions whose flirt is hidden in a fourth wheel option or something. Doc is a special case who comes onto anything female and a lot of people dislike him for that reason. 99% of companions are not Doc. He is the only one I know of who is that overt.

[TrixxieTriss]

The same sex romances issue was brought up in closed beta as soon as companion romances were introduced. Many, if not most, players wanted that option. Sadly it was not implemented.

 

If they were to offer a sex change option (similar to the rest of appearance changes you can do now) I don't see why they'd have to change a thing in romances. Just leave them as they are.

 

My point exactly

[SithKoriandr]

Don't know what Dragon Effect 2 is but I still find that messed up that they didn't make story companions flirtable for both male and female to begin with because that was highly unfair to the LGBT community. I for one didn't like that I play male characters and the only people I was allowed to flirt with were females. I felt very offended by that. I was thrilled when I played RotHC and was able to flirt with the male pure blood Sith only to be disappointed that it didn't get very far cause you either sacrifice him and he dies or if you save him he is severely injured and ends up leaving you either way. Then Theron came along and then you mostly got the same idea and when I saw he had returned for KOTFE and you could enter a romantic relationship with him I was thrilled but that still doesn't compensate for the disappointment I still feel that I was not able to do so with my class companions. I'd have enjoyed a bit of drama if one of my male love interest had come back and met my new love interest Theron but I'm denied that because it wasn't available unlike those who got to do that with their female companions they romanced if they are male or their male companions if they are female. That's like a swift kick in the balls to me for being gay.

 

Add-on: Not to mention but say if my Sith Warrior had romanced Malavai Quinn his betrayal to me and the difference that may have made to his betrayal to the Sith Warrior would have been so much of an interesting situation.

 

Do you get offended that females couldn't flirt with the male in RotHC? Is one able to be offended because they didn't get a flirt option? What if you got a flirt option, but they rebutted it, still offended? Should people get offended by the flirt options in game that get rebutted?

 

I wished my Agent could have flirted with Hunter, before it was found out about Hunter's secret. However, I didn't get offended by it, even though it left me wondering the whole time (until the reveal) "Why can't I flirt with him?"

[TrixxieTriss]

It's also lazy, from a writer's perspective. If their reactions are exactly the same to advances from anyone, it saves time writing dialogue or blocking out scenes.

 

But isn't this exactly what the writers have done with everything after the vanilla story. Lana and Theron both behave the same.

 

Allowing certain vanilla companions to be romancable by the same gender through vanilla story would have added more depth to it. Even possibly having 2 crew who were romancable, one for straight or one for gay. But the easiest would have been to make the current romancable companion unisex, which is only affects your own character. Yours might be gay, your friends might be straight. No one would know, but you as you play along.

[Ralei]

 

I wished my Agent could have flirted with Hunter, before it was found out about Hunter's secret. However, I didn't get offended by it, even though it left me wondering the whole time (until the reveal) "Why can't I flirt with him?"

 

I'm offended that if you're a male agent, after the reveal, you can flirt -_-. " Hey, you've been trying to kill me for months now, but since you're a woman all the sudden, lets kiss"....... SO WEIRD.

[SithKoriandr]

I'm offended that if you're a male agent, after the reveal, you can flirt -_-. " Hey, you've been trying to kill me for months now, but since you're a woman all the sudden, lets kiss"....... SO WEIRD.

 

Was it some sort of "That's why I was always so secretly attracted to you?"?

 

Now...as to the idea of player sexual companions, I used to not be for it. I thought the idea that companions would have set "I'm straight, bi, or gay" would be better writing wise. However, now, I have started to feel, while yes, it may be lazy writing, it's not exactly like TOR is the great writing many fans like to make it out to be. I find it typical MMO level, except it had multiple story lines, instead of one like other MMOs.

 

As for Lana, Theron and Koth. I always considered them bi

[TrixxieTriss]

It doesn't affect Theron, but it would affect people like Doc, he's a real ladies men, so is Corso, he's very chivalrous towards women. They have personalities that go with their sexualities. Where it wouldn't matter are people like Kaliyo, or Jaesa, and a few others I can't think of right now.

 

This I have to agree with this. Certain companions personalities have had their sexual preferences written so strongly into the story, that it wouldn't work for them to have a unisex option after that.

But that just means that you don't have a unisex romance for that companion. Maybe they allow another to be romanced or it's the same as now for that companion.

For my immersion into the game to work, I have to deny "all" vanilla romance options because as in my RL, I'm a lesbian. The thought of being with one of these males is a massive turn off. Having someone like doc (who is a pig by the way), hittting on you for most of his companion story and not taking the hint near the start is off putting for me.

They can allow this massive sleazy womaniser as a companion, but they can't let me kiss Kaliyo or Jaesa.

 

I can understand the "old" post by Bio saying that swapping sexes is too difficult because it affects vanilla story choices.

But we have moved on from that now. Once past the Vanilla story, there is nothing to stop your character from swapping gender. If anything, 4.0 opened a door to allow this because of the time gap and the dispersion of your companions. Plus the fact that if you romanced either Lana or Theron, that sort of negates your previous vanilla companion relationship.

[Ralei]

Was it some sort of "That's why I was always so secretly attracted to you?"?

 

Now...as to the idea of player sexual companions, I used to not be for it. I thought the idea that companions would have set "I'm straight, bi, or gay" would be better writing wise. However, now, I have started to feel, while yes, it may be lazy writing, it's not exactly like TOR is the great writing many fans like to make it out to be. I find it typical MMO level, except it had multiple story lines, instead of one like other MMOs.

 

As for Lana, Theron and Koth. I always considered them bi

 

I feel like lazy writing is relying on stereotypes of LBGTQ people to craft their personalities and back stories. Why cant they just be "normal" in the sense that they aren't defined by their sexuality? Just like Lana and Theron. It doesn't have to be "canon" that every single person in the universe of SWToR is bisexual. There aren't thousands of outlanders running around. There is only One, and that One's story decides what happens and who falls in love.

 

It's an MMO, it's made to appeal to a broad range of people and playstyles. If we were all reading a novel, I could see that "lazy writing" argument being a little more relevant.

[TrixxieTriss]

Thinking about the technical issues... perhaps they could have an option to do this, but it locks the character out of story? Or maybe just resets all of their story stuff back to the beginning? Would need a major warning on use to protect people from mistakes, but that might, in theory, be a way to get around bugs.

 

Either a hard wipe of everything story-related (if that's even feasible) or a permanent lockout.

 

It's not the ideal, but it'd be something.

 

That wouldn't be much different to instant lvl 60 token characters.

[TrixxieTriss]

Oh God don't remind me of Doc, I despised him and almost every conversation when the choices you make for the conversation always, always covered his crotch and so I had to look at that while reading the options and then want burn my eyes cause I despised this companion so much for his behavior towards women. I may be gay but I still respect women.

 

Thank god someone else thinks the same thing. Doc is such a pig.

[SithKoriandr]

This I have to agree with this. Certain companions personalities have had their sexual preferences written so strongly into the story, that it wouldn't work for them to have a unisex option after that.

But that just means that you don't have a unisex romance for that companion. Maybe they allow another to be romanced or it's the same as now for that companion.

For my immersion into the game to work, I have to deny "all" vanilla romance options because as in my RL, I'm a lesbian. The thought of being with one of these males is a massive turn off. Having someone like doc (who is a pig by the way), hittting on you for most of his companion story and not taking the hint near the start is off putting for me.

They can allow this massive sleazy womaniser as a companion, but they can't let me kiss Kaliyo or Jaesa.

 

I can understand the "old" post by Bio saying that swapping sexes is too difficult because it affects vanilla story choices.

But we have moved on from that now. Once past the Vanilla story, there is nothing to stop your character from swapping gender. If anything, 4.0 opened a door to allow this because of the time gap and the dispersion of your companions. Plus the fact that if you romanced either Lana or Theron, that sort of negates your previous vanilla companion relationship.

 

By that same comment then, Kaliyo isn't gay, so why would she allow you to kiss her? Jaesa doesn't romance anyone unless you physically and mentally torment her, so why would you kiss her (seeing as how doc being a womanizer comes off so bad for you, I would think a DS relationship with Jaesa would be worse).

 

I do agree though, that if they went full on player sexual with later game (Theron, Lana, Koth if they're not bi) why couldn't they make all companions that way (or some) in KotFE on forward? A little late now, with the return of 4 of them, but maybe with some of the ones not returned yet?

[SithKoriandr]

I feel like lazy writing is relying on stereotypes of LBGTQ people to craft their personalities and back stories. Why cant they just be "normal" in the sense that they aren't defined by their sexuality? Just like Lana and Theron. It doesn't have to be "canon" that every single person in the universe of SWToR is bisexual. There aren't thousands of outlanders running around. There is only One, and that One's story decides what happens and who falls in love.

 

It's an MMO, it's made to appeal to a broad range of people and playstyles. If we were all reading a novel, I could see that "lazy writing" argument being a little more relevant.

 

Well, I did say I stopped thinking they should have done a "This person is this and this person is this..." and went straight up player sexual, in part because, well the writing isn't as great as some players like to say (this isn't to say I don't enjoy the stories), but for what you said, and also, things have just changed.

 

TOR isn't canon anymore, so who cares now? All that might matter now, is what the player wants. I only ever thought two class were obviously meant to be a certain gender anyways (Inquisitor seems to have be obviously female and smuggler male), but does it even matter now that TOR isn't canon? There is no canon line anymore, that we knew there was before.

 

Hell, it might even extend people playing, as they may then go "Well great! Now I have to reroll this class AGAIN, so I can FINALLY have my class with who I wanted!"

 

Though, yeah, some still wouldn't make sense imo (Doc, Corso being a couple of them).

[TrixxieTriss]

By that same comment then, Kaliyo isn't gay, so why would she allow you to kiss her? Jaesa doesn't romance anyone unless you physically and mentally torment her, so why would you kiss her (seeing as how doc being a womanizer comes off so bad for you, I would think a DS relationship with Jaesa would be worse).

 

I do agree though, that if they went full on player sexual with later game (Theron, Lana, Koth if they're not bi) why couldn't they make all companions that way (or some) in KotFE on forward? A little late now, with the return of 4 of them, but maybe with some of the ones not returned yet?

 

Actually it's possible that was an option for Kaliyo when they were first doing the stories in the alpha/beta phase of development. Bioware were moving forward with LG options for companions until certain religious conservatives found out and threatened to protest and get people to boycott the game.

If you actually play a female with Kaliyo as your companion, the whole start of your story with her is just one big flirt. I truthfully thought with the way it was progressing, that it would move to the next stage.

Regardless, you are only basing your assumption on wether a character is gay or not on the way the options are currently set. Not on the personalities of the companions.

My point about Doc was that his personality is written so strongly and his womanising is such a big part, that it wouldn't work.

As for romancing Jaesa, I've never done it on a male character, so I don't know how that works. But if what you are say is correct for a male character to romance her, then that is another issue altogether. Without actually seeing this myself, I'm not going to debate the pros or cons to that.

[SithKoriandr]

Actually it's possible that was an option for Kaliyo when they were first doing the stories in the alpha/beta phase of development. Bioware were moving forward with LG options for companions until certain religious conservatives found out and threatened to protest and get people to boycott the game.

If you actually play a female with Kaliyo as your companion, the whole start of your story with her is just one big flirt. I truthfully thought with the way it was progressing, that it would move to the next stage.

Regardless, you are only basing your assumption on wether a character is gay or not on the way the options are currently set. Not on the personalities of the companions.

My point about Doc was that his personality is written so strongly and his womanising is such a big part, that it wouldn't work.

As for romancing Jaesa, I've never done it on a male character, so I don't know how that works. But if what you are say is correct for a male character to romance her, then that is another issue altogether. Without actually seeing this myself, I'm not going to debate the pros or cons to that.

 

Haven't done the romance either (female SW), but how do you get her to be darksided? It's not by being sweet to her Also, any reading of the forums will tell you that. So. of one is to hate on Doc, one should really hate on the Male Sith Warrior who romances Jaesa, as he's far worse than anything Doc has ever done, so Female Sith Warrior romancing her wouldn't be any better, and you wrote how you wish you she could be romanced by females.

 

As for Kaliyo, my agents were female However, as per KotFE she says "Not gay, sorry, though I like to tease." (basically) so, that whole time you see as "Look! She's gay!" was actually her playing the Agent.

[Eshvara]

Bioware were moving forward with LG options for companions until certain religious conservatives found out and threatened to protest and get people to boycott the game.

 

Did this really happen, is there some news article or whatever?

[SithKoriandr]

Did this really happen, is there some news article or whatever?

 

I haven't actually been able to find such an article, but it seems to be what part of the fan base likes to say. Could be true. They also like to say it was George who said no. So, conservative fan base or George? Or was it both and people pick a side?

 

I've also heard it was just a matter of time and money. It would have required more time, money investment, and EA wanted the game out now.

[SerraShar]

I haven't actually been able to find such an article, but it seems to be what part of the fan base likes to say. Could be true. They also like to say it was George who said no. So, conservative fan base or George? Or was it both and people pick a side?

 

I've also heard it was just a matter of time and money. It would have required more time, money investment, and EA wanted the game out now.

 

Could be Lucas . I mean , BW made kotor 1 and we get a lesbian Juhani . Come kotor 2 made by Lucas and Obsidian and we get nothing .

 

It could be both as well lol since the line between them is blurred..and the end result is the same .

 

Time and money ? It could've been done when they were writting them.....that's a lame exuse .

[TrixxieTriss]

Haven't done the romance either (female SW), but how do you get her to be darksided? It's not by being sweet to her Also, any reading of the forums will tell you that. So. of one is to hate on Doc, one should really hate on the Male Sith Warrior who romances Jaesa, as he's far worse than anything Doc has ever done, so Female Sith Warrior romancing her wouldn't be any better, and you wrote how you wish you she could be romanced by females.

 

As for Kaliyo, my agents were female However, as per KotFE she says "Not gay, sorry, though I like to tease." (basically) so, that whole time you see as "Look! She's gay!" was actually her playing the Agent.

 

You are really missing the point about Kaliyo and I actually explained it many posts before yours, so please go back and read it.

[Eshvara]

I haven't actually been able to find such an article, but it seems to be what part of the fan base likes to say. Could be true. They also like to say it was George who said no. So, conservative fan base or George? Or was it both and people pick a side?

 

I've also heard it was just a matter of time and money. It would have required more time, money investment, and EA wanted the game out now.

 

I did hear about about them wanting the game out fast and rushed things. But never the first part. I'd find it weird if George said no, wasn't Juhani from Kotor lesbian? I'd have to wonder why he would be against it now.

 

Edit, I see someone posted about Juhani while I was posting about Juhani:rak_03:

Edited November 3, 2016 by Eshvara

[TrixxieTriss]

Did this really happen, is there some news article or whatever?

 

There were a couple, most were on hosted by or on conservative websites. Obviously Bioware never released anything publically about this. I'm not even sure how the religious people originally found out about the content, but once they did, they made sure that Bioware heard them.

I'm trying to find some links for you, but I think because they were hosted by those groups to start with, the content has been removed because they got their way and there wasn't any reason to keep it on their server or web pages/forums etc.

I'll keep trying to find something. The links I actually had saved in my favourites now default to "page unfound".

Edited November 3, 2016 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

Could be Lucas . I mean , BW made kotor 1 and we get a lesbian Juhani . Come kotor 2 made by Lucas and Obsidian and we get nothing .

 

It could be both as well lol since the line between them is blurred..and the end result is the same .

 

Time and money ? It could've been done when they were writting them.....that's a lame exuse .

 

George Lucas may have been consulted and he possibly pulled it back because he knew he was going to sell the franchise and didn't want any controversy from the religious conservative community.

 

Nobody but Lucas Arts and Bioware would know if he had any input. All we know is that it was changed due to the conservative reaction to it.

 

Time and money would have been zero reason to pull content they were already developing. Especially when some of it was fairly advanced already. It would have cost them time and money to pull it out, but they did it anyway.

Edited November 3, 2016 by TrixxieTriss

[Nothing_Shines]

Bioware has gay/bi characters in all of their games...except vanilla SWTOR. Random non-gamers upset at pixelated nudity and gay aliens have barked objections for decades with no effect on Bioware. Someone powerful (Lucas) said "No" to SGR during development. Some outside "religious conservative" outcry had zero input on the game's development. Disney then buys SW and suddenly ROTHC comes out with gay one-shot NPCs, followed by SOR with more elaborate relationships and now KOTFE with full blown SGR companions. Edited November 3, 2016 by Nothing_Shines