Working for BW/EA must be...

[Jadescythe]

I don't understand the wailing and gnashing of teeth over the RNG gear. They haven't even finished tuning it yet, and we've got people screaming about years long grinds and 26,325 pairs of bracers. It is complete hysteria around here.

 

I'm really tired of seeing this as it isn't really the problem. Let's say it is tuned great and 99% of people have the best gear in the amount of time BW intended. Why would we want a system that actively disappointed 1% of players for literally no reason? If BW had just given a set amount of rep or commendations that it costs to purchase a piece, then 100% of players would get the gear they wanted in the same timeframe (as related to time played, not real time).

 

So in order to get players "excited" we went with a lottery system, so we'll have some winners who are really happy and some losers who are really unhappy. Whether it ends up being a 50/50 split or a 99/1 split is irrelevant as you end up with unhappy players who are behind for no reason other than total luck. And yes, some poor soul is going to get the same piece in 5 crates in a row because of how probability works in a large population. The rare circumstances have to happen to someone.

[Andryah]

Man, I really don't envy Eric's job. Constant negativity can bring you down. People get CRAZY over their games.

 

Having watched Eric (in internet virtual terms) for a long time now, he is actually the perfect personality for a community manager in my view. Much better then earlier CMs here at swtor.com.

 

Customer facing, he is like the Pillsbury Doughboy... you can poke him but you cannot upset him.

 

Now, behind the studio walls, in the privacy of his office, he may very well be rolling his eyes at some of the threads in the forum and perhaps occasionally throwing his morning beverage at the cubicle walls..... /shrug... but I doubt it.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Andryah

[TheAresian]

It's true that the community rarely agrees on anything, and often will talk over each other in order to press their personal narratives.

 

It is also true that studios generally do not allow player passion and rage to dictate direction of content. They listen, but since they have to make a product that appeals to the masses, extreme views or passionate exaggerations by the community are generally not valuable in moving a product forward. Players simply have to decide if what is offered is right for them, or close enough that they enjoy it, or not.

 

That said... this is a very poor time to make a thread like this. It's catnip for the disaffected, so expect many snarky and over the top drive by comments to your thread. But you probably already knew this.

 

Good luck with the thread.

 

The problem lies in trying to produce a game for the masses. The bigger you want the customer base to be, the more you have to water the game down to please everybody. I don't blame any business for trying to make money, but I do question the wisdom of constantly trying to grab the short dollar. Long term survival is dependent on a loyal customer base and constantly taking away from them in the hopes of making a larger profit now is risky for those games without a base large enough to survive mass departures of players. As for the forums, all I can say is "If you build it, they will come. And some of them will crap all over it."

[Radzkie]

 

So in order to get players "excited" we went with a lottery system, so we'll have some winners who are really happy and some losers who are really unhappy. Whether it ends up being a 50/50 split or a 99/1 split is irrelevant as you end up with unhappy players who are behind for no reason other than total luck. And yes, some poor soul is going to get the same piece in 5 crates in a row because of how probability works in a large population. The rare circumstances have to happen to someone.

My thoughts exactly.

 

Some people will get crapped on by RNG, no matter how they "tune" it. RIP those people.

[GythralSWTOR]

How about they stop thinking and start reading?

 

Probably because they are only allowed to do what the suits tell them

[kodrac]

The problem is they swung too far to the easy to get gear with 4.0 (EV and KP granted 11 of 14 slots) and now they are swinging too far in the other direction (RNG grind), they cannot find a healthy balance.

 

They swung too far easy with everything in 4.0. God mode companions, no skills needed for the linear auto-play story line, simplified heroics with tons of credits... There was no challenge whatsoever. And no challenge makes for a boring game with no subscriber retention. They're swinging back. It may not be harder, but it'll take longer. This time the aim is the carrot on a stick. They're betting on the value of the carrot will equal the value of the sub, or outweigh the value of the difficulty, or both. I agree they can't find a healthy balance. It's like they're saying we know we screwed up in 4.0 without actually say 'hey we screwed up in 4.0'.

[CorellianWannabe]

They work to bring us stuff they think will be cool and all the community does is whinge and moan and post about quitting.

 

When do they ask what 'stuff' WE think will be cool? I have yet to see an in-game poll. Who asked for RNG? The same people that buy cartel crates by the dozen and play with the slot machine? Is the game designed around what the whales think would be 'cool'?

 

As for working, reskinning cartel gear likely isn't the most difficult work, nor is writing an 'epic' story that doesn't need to take player decisions into account.

Edited October 19, 2016 by CorellianWannabe

[RagnarAugustus]

OP you've completely missed the boat on this one. Yes nobody, especially community mangers here who don't have any input into the game except to report what the community thinks of the state of the game or what the community thinks about future changes to the devs deserve threats or disrespect.

 

That being said if the devs want SWTOR to continue to be a successful money making game they have a duty to listen to the community. Given not every idea or nerf from the community is a good idea or needed but for sweeping changes like they are proposing in 5.0 they really should have solicited the community's feedback. I think the devs expected some blowback from the dev livestream but they were probably completely unprepared for the almost unanimous rejection of the 5.0 changes that we've seen here. Never before have I seen raiders and PVPers agree on something like this, but darn it I've witnessed it this week!

 

As people who put a lot of time and money into the games that we love it is our duty to voice our displeasure when potentially negative changes are announced - especially negative changes of this magnitude. The only chance to stop a change is before it is implemented, after a change is implemented those changes are rarely rolled back, just tweaked - so sound off before they're implemented. I'd rather have this expansion delayed 3-6 months and reworked to remove the bad ideas than see these changes go live. Let's just keep our feedback sane and respectful.

Edited October 19, 2016 by RagnarAugustus

[americanaussie]

Man, I really don't envy Eric's job. Constant negativity can bring you down. People get CRAZY over their games.

 

The worst job I ever had was selling smartphones in rural Appalachia. It was like giving The Monolith to the apes. They'd return day after day SO ANGRY about basic things like losing their gmail passwords ("can you call The Google to get it back for me?") that you really had to just laugh constantly and try not to despair for humanity.

 

I don't understand the wailing and gnashing of teeth over the RNG gear. They haven't even finished tuning it yet, and we've got people screaming about years long grinds and 26,325 pairs of bracers. It is complete hysteria around here.

 

It is one thing to speculate about how you think the changes will effect raiding, queues, progression...etc.. but I see people come up with a theory on the spot, test it in their brilliant mind like rain man with the fingers, present it as fact - and then get really angry over it and threaten to quit all in the span of an hour. It is just hilarious. It has to be.

 

LOL. Agreed. I worked in an electronics store in rural Appalachia and I remember having one particular customer who bought a computer tower as it was "cheap". She went home and hooked up her printer then called in asking how she could print things without the computer screen. She was not a very happy customer since she needed to "buy" a monitor to "see" what she was doing on her computer. One does have to do their best not to burst out laughing.

 

I've seen those freaking out posts. I'll wait until the game drops before getting too concerned. I'm a little worried over them dropping crystals as that's how I pay to upgrade my gear. You get so few credits at lower levels. But I'll believe that if it's not working out that they will fix it so that it is better. People whinged about treasure hunting credits so they removed that so they do listen.

[Ralei]

LOL. Agreed. I worked in an electronics store in rural Appalachia and I remember having one particular customer who bought a computer tower as it was "cheap". She went home and hooked up her printer then called in asking how she could print things without the computer screen. She was not a very happy customer since she needed to "buy" a monitor to "see" what she was doing on her computer. One does have to do their best not to burst out laughing.

 

I've seen those freaking out posts. I'll wait until the game drops before getting too concerned. I'm a little worried over them dropping crystals as that's how I pay to upgrade my gear. You get so few credits at lower levels. But I'll believe that if it's not working out that they will fix it so that it is better. People whinged about treasure hunting credits so they removed that so they do listen.

 

Oh, Lord. I bet we could trade stories for hours. Working there definitely cured me of customer facing positions forever. I will never complain about being couped up in an office again.

 

Honestly, I'm more worried about the combat/class changes coming through. I can deal with getting gear more slowly, they can tweak that stuff all day. What I can't deal with is someone messing up the "flow" of my warrior and making combat clunky/boring.

[Alssaran]

I don't understand the wailing and gnashing of teeth over the RNG gear. They haven't even finished tuning it yet, and we've got people screaming about years long grinds and 26,325 pairs of bracers. It is complete hysteria around here.

 

If I have learned anything over the past five years, then it's pretty much this: The SWTOR forum/reddit will go ******* crazy over stuff that would be an otherwise 100 comment discussion in other MMORPGs. Pretty much everyone I know in-game has stopped paying any attention to the forums and to reddit because the constant amount of passive-aggressive entitlement is unbearable for prolongued periods of time.

 

I remember when people went ******* crazy pre-release because on-rail space combat was not what they had envisioned for the game. People said this would make the game unplayable, and that they would not buy the game until new space combat was announced. Fast forward to release: The game sold 2.1 million copies during the launch window.

 

I remember when people were bashing Utilities and Disciplines as the "NGE of SWTOR." People said - literally - that this would destroy the combat system as we know it, take out the choice from this game's skill system, and leave us high and dry. Fast forward two months after it's release: Nobody paid any attention to it.

 

I remember when people went crazy over level-synch. They went to all sorts of trouble explaining why it is a bad idea. They don't want to feel powerless, they don't want to be disturbed by some blasted sand people while farming materials on Tatooine, and their (RP) character was a Darth at level 60. Then the feature was released, and people commented stuff like: "Well, this isn't as bad as I imagined..."

 

This outrage is not entirely new, and veterans will remember that this is the fourth or fifth time of this phenomenon happening. And, no, this is not particularly worse than anything before it. People around here love to go crazy about stuff that they do not have all the details about. I remember reading a thread about someone calculating the odds of receiving an entire set by assuming different variables for the calculation. He came out at ~91 packs for an entire set on average. Another one came out at ~50 packs for an entire set because he had different assumptions about the fine-print.

 

Point is: Watch the live-stream tonight, and then apply the criticism to the fine-print you actually know something about. And for gods good graces: Do it in the appropriate sticky thread. This entire premature outrage with two dozen different posts an hour that are filled by the very same people over and over again is instance number eight of a phenomenon that has happened before. Yet we have some people on YouTube with 300 likes "speaking out and crying out for the community!". My skateboarding Chihuahua has ten times that amount of likes...

 

And before someone makes some basic assumptions to discredit this: No, I do not like RNG. Yes, I do like the new Galactic Command idea. No, I could do without RNG loot. No, I'm not leaving the game. Yes, I do not bloody mind either RNG loot or not. I simply don't care. Most people who only play casually probably don't care either way. The people I know who'll return for KotET just shrug it off. They aren't encouraged by it, and they are not stopped by it either. They simply do not care either way. Obtaining BiS gear is not something that has to be done in a week. Not for most of them anyway. If you are a hardcore raider, then you might need it. The simple fact remains that most people aren't hard-bend on clearing raids or playing ranked PvP. Obtaining gear is probably just a means to an end, and not something that needs to be rushed.

 

That being said if the devs want SWTOR to continue to be a successful money making game they have a duty to listen to the metrics.

 

I fixed that for you. Contrary to popular believe, developers do not have to listen to the vocal minority to make a game great. They have to listen to the tons of data colleceted about the broad behaviour of the playerbase. This was said by an ex-Blizzard employee who now works for another company: When it comes to class balance, mechanics and the overall gameplay design behind an MMORPG, you never want to listen to the forums. The forums are a small segment of an otherwise big community, and even the threads with dozens of pages don't tell you the entire story.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Alssaran

[Aowin]

Bottom line, there is no need to be disrespectful to the employees no matter how upset you are with the game announcement. They don't "DESERVE" it. If you think they do, then get out of your mum's basement and go find a real job/your own house/life.

 

BioWare also doesn't need you defending it or being its self-proclaimed cheerleader. BioWare is a company that has been designing video games for over 20 years. I think it understands a little bit about how fans operate, especially with SWTOR running for the past five years.

 

This post is not at all a criticism of BioWare either, but the pointlessness and futility of your thread. The forums do not represent the entire "community" of SWTOR. What you largely find here are extremes and the unreasonable. Where there are a handful of disgruntled players who claim the world is ending, there are hundreds (if not more) who log in everyday happily enjoying the game.

 

I know the multitude of pointless threads that are created on a daily basis here can seem troubling and even downright depressing, but have confidence in knowing this is the norm for any MMORPG community. It could be far worse. Welcome to SWTOR.

[Tsillah]

I've had thankless jobs before. It's extremely depressing, especially when people are likely being told what needs to be done and merely follow what the higher ups want. The least we can do is wait until 5.0 is here before addressing complaints. Sure, we can post our concerns but this hate is going too far. Now I see why game forums get closed down. Incessant, possibly unnecessary whinging.

 

So how do you think that opening another thread on the topic, that no doubt gets a lot more negative replies than positive, will actually help the situation? If you want a positive vibe, don't lash out at others. It's counterproductive.

 

Tell me, why, if you really believe this, do you do the opposite of what could actually help?

 

Bottom line, there is no need to be disrespectful to the employees no matter how upset you are with the game announcement. They don't "DESERVE" it. If you think they do, then get out of your mum's basement and go find a real job/your own house/life.

 

Something that I really hate is people who talk about moral concepts like respect and then show no respect themselves. Either don't talk about it or lead by example. Practice what you preach.

 

How the hell do you think you have any credibility when accusing people of being disrespectful and then being disrespectful yourself? The end does not justify the means. Just because you think you're right, doesn't mean you have the right to be disrespectful yourself. Now, I am not telling you that you have to be perfect but....

 

if you want to accuse people of being disrespectful then don't be disrespectful yourself. Or do you really just not get that to tell people to "get out of your mum's basement and go find a real job/your own house/life" is disrespectful?

 

It's comments like that, that rile people up and give them a reason to disagree with you. As I said before, it's counterproductive if you really mean what you say here.

[Icykill_]

a super thankless job. Seriously. They work to bring us stuff they think will be cool and all the community does is whinge and moan and post about quitting. Gamers in the past threatening employees and their families and more recently, as in today, people saying that Eric and co deserve the abuse because they work for BW etc. Seriously?

 

I've had thankless jobs before. It's extremely depressing, especially when people are likely being told what needs to be done and merely follow what the higher ups want. The least we can do is wait until 5.0 is here before addressing complaints. Sure, we can post our concerns but this hate is going too far. Now I see why game forums get closed down. Incessant, possibly unnecessary whinging.

 

If you're going to quit over what you think 5.0 is going to be like, then there's no need to announce it unless you're giving away your stuffs.

 

Bottom line, there is no need to be disrespectful to the employees no matter how upset you are with the game announcement. They don't "DESERVE" it. If you think they do, then get out of your mum's basement and go find a real job/your own house/life.

 

While they don't deserve abuse... what they think is "cool" and what the players/customers want are often at different ends of the scales.

They often force stuff on us that no one wants and don't listen to things we do want. That's not how you treat your customers or keep them happy.

It gives the impression of we don't care what you want, you will take this because this is what we want you like.

Even when they ask for feed back and a majority say it's bad or the majority agrees on what they like, they don't listen to the feed back. I have to question why they even bother asking.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when they throw ideas around and decide on stuff that they "think we should have"...

You would think they would learn, but they keep making the same mistakes over and over.

This whole gearing thing didn't need to happen. Nobody wants it, the current system isn't broken and works fine. But they change it for the sake of change.

There are things that are broken in the game or could enhanced if they wanted to change something or improve it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it or change it. That's how things end up broken and it's a good way to alienate your paying customers.

They could have easily asked for some feed back on this gearing idea back when they thought of it, but they didn't. If they did, they would have seen the overwhelming opposition to the idea.

If you're going to make such sweeping changes and expect your paying customers to be on side, then communication is essential if you don't want to piss them off.

If they'd consulted and the majority agreed, then it would be tough luck. But no consultation on something as game changing as this can bite them in the butt if everyone hates it. So it's their own fault if they get flak from it.