Galactic Command =/= Battlemaster Bags

[Aowin]

...

 

Highly unlikely and baseless speculation.

 

As I said, I was here at launch. I had to deal with the monstrosity that was Battlemaster Bags. In theory, I could have never received a Battlemaster Commendation due to having a 75% chance of failure. Yet, I was able to get more than enough comms to get the entire Battlemaster set and most of a second set before War Hero gear was introduced.

 

Galactic Command is far more lenient than Battlemaster Bags will ever be. Sure, we can argue there's a chance you might never get one or two pieces. Or, we can argue you could get every piece on your first try. It's RNG. One person's chance will differ from another person's chance. Again, this is an incredibly simplistic way of looking at RNG when the system BioWare is incorporating is far more comprehensive and nuanced.

[peter_plankskull]

Highly unlikely and baseless speculation.

 

As I said, I was here at launch. I had to deal with the monstrosity that was Battlemaster Bags. In theory, I could have never received a Battlemaster Commendation due to having a 75% chance of failure. Yet, I was able to get more than enough comms to get the entire Battlemaster set and most of a second set before War Hero gear was introduced.

 

Galactic Command is far more lenient than Battlemaster Bags will ever be. Sure, we can argue there's a chance you might never get one or two pieces. Or, we can argue you could get every piece on your first try. It's RNG. One person's chance will differ from another person's chance. Again, this is an incredibly simplistic way of looking at RNG when the system BioWare is incorporating is far more comprehensive and nuanced.

 

You're right, its RNG, so where going to take the most likely statistical scenario here.

 

Spoiler: it still sucks and still takes forever to grind.

[Khevar]

Highly unlikely and baseless speculation.

 

...

 

Again, this is an incredibly simplistic way of looking at RNG when the system BioWare is incorporating is far more comprehensive and nuanced.

See look, here you are telling someone else that they're engaging in speculation, while doing the same.

 

The system Bioware is incorporating MAY be more comprehensive and nuanced. But you couldn't possibly know that, as there have been no further details released. It could be as simple as:

 

1. Command rank goes up.

2. You get crates in your stash.

3. Opening the crates has X% for a gear drops matching the level of your command rank.

 

Or it could be more sophisticated than that. One would hope.

 

But we won't know until further details are released. And we REALLY won't know until it's been put into practice.

[Aowin]

You're right, its RNG, so where going to take the most likely statistical scenario here.

 

Spoiler: it still sucks and still takes forever to grind.

 

My point is we do not know the ins and outs of Galactic Command and to just label it as "RNG" is a simplistic and uninformed outlook on trying to understand what this new progression system will accomplish. Do you really believe BioWare has not already considered the pitfalls many are bringing up? Do you truly believe they are that incompetent when it comes to game design?

 

"RNG" is such a vague and ambiguous term it almost serves no value. It is completely dependent on how the RNG is used and how these statistical variables are calculated in the game compounded by the loot tables introduced. For all you know your chances of getting gear may actually be substantially better than you think. Just because there is a random component doesn't mean the entire system is completely invalidated and without merit.

 

Slow down. Take a second to process what BioWare is actually thinking. We will know soon enough just how well Galactic Command works (or doesn't). Save your criticism for when you've actually tested the system instead of trying to coerce BioWare into changing something they won't.

 

I survived the Battlemaster Bag debacle and came through just fine. I'm sure you'll be okay with what is literally child's play in comparison.

[IanArgent]

If I could know one thing that I do not yet know, from official statements or unofficial sources, it would be this:

 

How much GXP do you get for disintegrating items from the Command Stash?

 

Because if you get a 100% refund for disintegrating a pack's worth of items (say a Command Crate has 2 drop slots like an Alliance crate, and you get 1 "gear item" and 1 "other", and to get the full value you have to disintegrate both), then the RNG is "cosmetic" and you just draw and discard until you get something you like.

[Aowin]

...

 

I never claimed I wasn't speculating. What I have said is this is far better than the Battlemaster Bag system, which it is. I also know that we don't have enough information to truly judge this system based on what we know currently. I am suggesting caution and patience before picking up the pitchforks and torches. All of your concerns will be far more credible once we actually see how Galactic Command functions.

[peter_plankskull]

I never claimed I wasn't speculating. What I have said is this is far better than the Battlemaster Bag system, which it is. I also know that we don't have enough information to truly judge this system based on what we know currently. I am suggesting caution and patience before picking up the pitchforks and torches. All of your concerns will be far more credible once we actually see how Galactic Command functions.

 

As mentioned before, just because its better than the BBS, doesn't mean its still a solid system.

 

You think they would of responded by now or addressed the RNG concern issues that the entire community is freaking out about if they had it all methodically planned through.

[IanArgent]

As mentioned before, just because its better than the BBS, doesn't mean its still a solid system.

 

You think they would of responded by now or addressed the RNG concern issues that the entire community is freaking out about if they had it all methodically planned through.

 

I'm sort of heartened by the lack of comment specific to the gear generation system. Means they're thinking about what they should do instead of whipping out a prepared response.

[peter_plankskull]

I'm sort of heartened by the lack of comment specific to the gear generation system. Means they're thinking about what they should do instead of whipping out a prepared response.

 

Well it depends, I too hope their finding a way to address the community properly, and not trying to panic and simply stop the riot, but to further prevent them, but in the past, they have shown to wait it all out, let the city be burned, the dust settle, and then talk to the community. Sometimes they don't even do that, IE operations. I do like that Eric is sharing tons of details about KOTET, but it seems the data miners beat him on most subjects so far.

[Khevar]

Do you really believe BioWare has not already considered the pitfalls many are bringing up? Do you truly believe they are that incompetent when it comes to game design?

That's an extreme way of looking at it.

 

I'm not worried about incompetence. I'm worried about someone having an idea that seems good on paper, but doesn't work out in actual practice. Here's a real-world example (albeit in different aspect of software development):

During the development of Windows Server 2008, there was a team tasked with the UI for the "Start Menu". They eventually came up with the idea to:

 

1. Replace the "Log out" button with a "Power Down" button.

2. Change the flyout menu to include the "Log out" option.

 

This made it through every review approval process, and actually went to market. Despite the fact that the most frequent use-case for the Windows Server operating system is on a machine at an off-site location. Where one would hardly EVER use the "power down" option.

 

The backlash on this feature resulted in Windows Server 2008 R2 reverting that UI, such that the "Log Out" button was the first think you'd see, and the "Power Down" was put back into the flyout.

Here's another example:

Logitech released the Harmony One universal remote with great success. In terms of volume of sales, in professional reviews, and in customer feedback.

 

After X time had passed, R&D decided to come up with a new flagship product. Their engineering team decided to move the touchscreen closer to the thumb for easier access. To do this, it required putting the "play / stop / rew / ffwd" buttons at the top of the remote.

 

This made it all the way to market. Upon which a volume of complaints flooded in by consumers that preferred to use the manual buttons, but kept accidentally triggering the touch screen. It seems obvious in hindsight -- but some engineer (and every approval terminal along the way) seemed to think this was a great idea.

The point being that a developer can have a vision about their software. But once it makes it into practice, it may turn out that they didn't think it all the way through.

 

That may happen with Galactic Command. It may not, but it's hardly out of the question.

[phalczen]

A character use 14 items : ear, 2 implants, 2 relics, main hand, off hand and 7 armor pieces.

Let's say that you only need 2 of the same implant and that a dps and a healer use the same weapons, off hands, earpieces, implants and relics.

A loot table tuned to the commando would have 20 items : earpiece, one implant, one main weapon, one off hand, 2 relics and 2 sets of 7 armor pieces.

 

That means that for my commando healer, every crate will have 7/20 items I don't want and don't need. Sure that's a better rate than the 25% for battlemaster. Forgive me if I'm still not that happy.

 

And that's worse for the advanced class with tank and dps disciplines.

 

The first time that you earn a crate, its a 13/20 chance that its something you need. But the second time you earn a crate, its only 12/20, and it goes down from there. By crate #13, you have a 95% chance of getting something you don't need, but it stays fixed there.

 

Now, compound this with the fact that this process will have to be repeated all over again when you reach a new tier of gear or are trying to progress.

 

Said differently, what we really want to know is how many crates will we have to open, to have a 95-97.5% chance of being fully geared.

 

By crate #4, you have an approximately 97% chance of getting something you need. But again, as you fill gear slots, you have less and less chance of getting what you need, and the # of crates you'll have to open continues to increase. I simply don't know statistics well enough to compute these probabilities. But my very cursory knowledge of probabilities and my excel spreadsheet estimate that for your sixth gear slot, you're already up to 34 crates before you'll be 97% likely to have gotten a piece you need.

 

So, for six gear slots, you will have a 97% chance to have gotten six pieces you need after 85 crates.

 

For comparison, let's look at live.

 

If you include Colossal Monolith and Golden Fury (TC), plus all the existing ops bosses, but not Eyeless or Xeno, that's 48 potential drops a week. In a standard raid team of 8, you have a 1/8 chance of winning the loot roll per boss. That means you have a 7/8 chance of not getting a piece. Now, that's not entirely accurate, since there are unoptimized pieces which drop, but since those appear to be going the way of the dodo as well, we won't consider them.

 

There is a less than 3% chance that you will not have won a loot roll after 26 bosses. That means you are 97% likely to have gotten a piece you need after about 26 bosses. So, its pretty likely that over the course of 48 bosses a week, you'd get a couple of pieces you can use. 14 gear slots x 26 bosses divided by 48 bosses per week means it will take you roughly 8 weeks to gear up.

 

That's if you relied solely on the RNG, like you only went through group finder. A proper team or a friendly guild would distribute the loot such that naturally people wouldn't be rolling if they already had the piece, which would increase your chances both within a given week and also as the weeks progress. In any given week, with 48 bosses, all the team members would likely have six items. It won't be exactly that since the drops from CM and TC are random, but it will be pretty close. It's highly likely the whole team would be in tier 1 set bonus gear within a month.

 

But we're relying on the RNG, not a nice group of friends who raid, so we're back to the 26 bosses after which you'd be 97% likely to have won a loot roll.

 

The real unanswered question is how many bosses, or weekly ops missions, will it take to earn a crate? If that number is less than 26, then the system is ARGUABLY an improvement over Live. I mean, if at low command ranks I earn boxes every boss, then 85 boxes/six things I can use won't be that hard to come by, and I can feel reasonably secure after about two weeks that I'll have a fair amount of story mode gear.

The problem is, rank appears to be exponential. If its as bad as influence, we could be well out of the range of one box every boss after a week of raiding. What happens then?

 

I just don't get it, Devs.

[CorellianWannabe]

My point is we do not know the ins and outs of Galactic Command and to just label it as "RNG" is a simplistic and uninformed outlook on trying to understand what this new progression system will accomplish. Do you really believe BioWare has not already considered the pitfalls many are bringing up? Do you truly believe they are that incompetent when it comes to game design?

 

Looking at past decisions over the last five years...

[CorellianWannabe]

"Waaah! I want what I want and I want it NOW!"

 

Seriously, as I have said before. Get over yourself. RNG helps keep a game going. If you have never tried to design even a simple level in a game editor, try it. To create content that is only an hour long can take a month. Think about that.

So here is where we are at...RNG that could gear a person potentially insanely fast, or we let you have currency but you can only get 1 token a week and it takes 5 tokens for belt OR bracers, 7 for boots or gloves or helmet, and 10 for chest or pants. You know...so they have time to actually make the next content before you chew through it in your demanding self centeredness that apparently doesn't actually ENJOY the content you play (if you enjoy it you don't need a carrot on a stick...IE gear...as a reward to do it).

 

 

Yeah, ok, sorry for that coming across so mean but seriously people! This "I want it now" is total crap. EVERYTHING you do at 70 earns you exp for those boxes...so it isn't like you will have an ultra hard time at getting them. Simply play the game, enjoy what you do, and the rest will come your way.

 

Again, Everquest is that way. Odd how it's not more popular...

 

What about my EVE idea-making strongholds/guild ships destructible? Wouldn't earning millions to rebuild keep the game going as well?

Edited October 19, 2016 by CorellianWannabe

[micmitja]

Well u guys are forgetting one thing there if u want to play statistics, there aren't only 2 implants/earpieces there are 3 for dps/ heal acc/crit/acu, tank are only 2, and relics are 4 different per dps/tank. So it can takes way longer to get what u want to get optimized, not to mention enhancements u always have to change those.

 

As for crafting gear goes y i will be willing to take millions again per each piece if i will stay in game at all will decide for that when expansion hit. Its not so much about the rng thing and that it will be the only way to get any gear whats so ever besides overpriced crafts on gtn as it i of lack of new content. Some of us are tired of regrinding same stuff since start and repacked in past 2 years to do all over again.

Edited October 19, 2016 by micmitja

[Shwarzchild]

Well u guys are forgetting one thing there if u want to play statistics, there aren't only 2 implants/earpieces there are 3 for dps/ heal acc/crit/acu, tank are only 2, and relics are 4 different per dps/tank. So it can takes way longer to get what u want to get optimized, not to mention enhancements u always have to change those.

 

As for crafting gear goes y i will be willing to take millions again per each piece if i will stay in game at all will decide for that when expansion hit. Its not so much about the rng thing and that it will be the only way to get any gear whats so ever besides overpriced crafts on gtn as it i of lack of new content. Some of us are tired of regrinding same stuff since start and repacked in past 2 years to do all over again.

 

If we use our current system different types of ears or implants is inconsequential considering the token piece you'd get you'd be able to get any of those three. Enhancements are a story where you can just as easily use the mk2 drops. But regardless you are correct.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Shwarzchild

[micmitja]

If we use our current system different types of ears or implants is inconsequential considering the token piece you'd get you'd be able to get any of those three. Enhancements are a story where you can just as easily use the mk2 drops

 

Y still whole thing is based on grind grind grind who knows how long till u will be able to get some gear out of and when u will finally reached the proper lvl and gear will start dropping u can happily grind for what ever stats u guys are dropping out.

 

And all that on each alt u want to gear up.

 

So now we got chance to grind same content 3rd year in a row good stuff

Edited October 19, 2016 by micmitja

[Aowin]

...

 

This change is two-fold. One, BioWare wants progression to be fair across the board, regardless of your play style. Secondly, BioWare wants to elongate the gear progression process. Admittedly, obtaining the high-end gear in this game is too easy and the best players are able to obtain the BiS gear within a relatively short period of time.

 

This prevents that from being as likely and drastically slows down the progression process so that players aren't burning through content as quickly and eventually hitting a progression wall. This, in theory, would give BioWare more time to actually develop other content while players are occupied with finishing the gear sets they currently have.

 

Of course, how long this will take largely depends on how long is required to grind the necessary amount of Command Levels to obtain the corresponding gear everybody will want.

[devincor]

With the RNG system is it quite conceivable that you will grind your way to tier 4 gear and never have a complete set of gear for the bonus because one or two crucial pieces just wont drop for you.

 

Highly unlikely and baseless speculation....

 

I don't think it is baseless speculation at all, in fact we have a current model of this in the Heroic Boxes.

I have had many characters go through the 5 level span of Gear Set and not complete one. I have one character that went from 56 through 60 doing just heroics and only got 5 pieces of the 178 set. And these boxes are spec specific, it will be worse with GC crates.

 

I don't buy CM packs because I hate RNG, and If my luck from Heroics holds out I am probably not going to like this rewards system either.

[Aowin]

...

 

The one major distinction between Heroic crates and Galactic Command crates is the latter is only accessible when you are level 70. While you may not have achieved all the pieces for the 178 set, you'll never out-level the gear in the Galactic Command crates unless you just get to a higher Galactic Command level.

 

Either way, if you dedicate enough time to the Galactic Command progression system, it is more than likely you will eventually achieve the entire set you are striving for.

[phalczen]

Secondly, BioWare wants to elongate the gear progression process. Admittedly, obtaining the high-end gear in this game is too easy and the best players are able to obtain the BiS gear within a relatively short period of time.

 

This prevents that from being as likely and drastically slows down the progression process so that players aren't burning through content as quickly and eventually hitting a progression wall. This, in theory, would give BioWare more time to actually develop other content while players are occupied with finishing the gear sets they currently have.

 

I'm not buying that logic. Bioware knows that what raiders want are raids, not longer progression cycles (while simultaneously arguing that the majority of the playerbase are not raiders.) If Bioware was worried about the length of the gear progression cycle, they would not have lowered the cost of pvp gear (a fantastic move in my opinion), or created the Highlighted Hard Mode system (has pluses and minuses). Everything they've done and said in interviews this year has been about making things more accessible and re-using old content (see recent evidence in the Bad Feeling podcast Ben Irving and Passionately Casual podcast Eric Musco.) I sincerely doubt this system was done purely for the benefit of the hard core raiders. Remember, they're not talking about any operations until they're ready to consider starting to design them in January 2017.

 

I DO believe that someone, somewhere, in the organization thought this was a good idea in some way. I DO believe as a player that it will feel more satisfying to earn command rank points with every boss kill, instead of walking away from an op empty handed, with nothing but a handful of data crystals that even when I collect enough I won't use because the gear is so poorly optimized. I DO believe as a player it will feel better inching closer to that next rank ... Until I get that Command Crate and get my fifth straight tank earpiece for my dps powertech who has a 2/6 set bonus and pre 5.0 left side.

 

I am willing to concede that there might be some structure to this system where Command Crates might flow like water for the first few levels doing ops or pvp weeklies, making us all seem like crybabies. The math, however, dictates you're going to need hundreds of crates to have a high probability of gearing yourself completely, unless you're a sniper or a mara. Now granted, not everyone will require that many crates. But its those unlucky outliers that can have a miserable experience and be permanently turned off from the game. We don't need that.

 

It is also possible that the crafters will make out very well in this new system, particularly artificers, cybertechs and biochemists, who will make the left-side stuff that has never been tradeable via legacy gear. And, perhaps that's intended too. We just don't know enough about the crafting changes in 5.0, but Musco has alluded that crafted items will be comparable (not identical, but competitive).

 

Crafted 220 left side and 216 set bonus stuff is enough to do HM EV and KP currently. Maybe even some bosses in HM S&V or TfB? It is possible that if the tier 1 gear set bonus can be acquired readily enough, it won't be too bad for progression raiders.

 

But we're making a lot of assumptions:

1) Crafted gear won't require operation material drops.

2) Command Crates that drop Tier 1 end game gear will be plentiful enough to get you geared for progression or pvp

3) At Level 70, Story mode ops or unranked pvp matches will have a bolster that is effective and isn't bugged.

[EVO_D]

I too was about in the battlemaster bag days as awful as those were these new bags will be just as bad. Instead of a broken open world PVP weekly where we had to farm armaments we will have to grind for god knows how long in order to get our PVP gear. I had saved up all my warzone comms for full gear for all my chars when they reach 70 but no, now I have to grind this s*** for who knows how long! adding to that this valour nonsense for ranked warzones, some of my chars might not be eligible to compete what the hell is this? It's sounding like a terrible change to me

[Aowin]

...

 

Galactic Command isn't just for raiders. This progression system is for all players at endgame. It's not meant to promote one playstyle over the other, at least that's the intention. As far as PvP gear being too accessible, that's a non-issue as PvP ranked gear (rating 208) was vastly inferior to NiM Op gear (rating 224). What BioWare is doing is placing all players, regardless of their interests, on the same progression path. If anything, this system is merely meant to make things easier to maintain from a development standpoint rather than giving preferential treatment to any demographic of the playerbase.

 

Again, you are merely speculating on how you perceive RNG to function with Galactic Command. We don't know all the facts and it's too early to make such frivolous statements until we see the system in action. I know you are going to stick by your numbers and probabilities. However, until we learn how fast we level in Galactic Command, how easy it is to obtain crates, and how much these GCXP daily bonus boosts provide, your remarks are pure speculation based on the RNG you perceive to exist.

 

Comparable suggests it's good enough to be competitive. It won't be the best, but you won't be in a situation where your gear is vastly inferior either.

 

1) I can almost guarantee you that crafted materials will no longer drop in Operations. Why is that? BioWare is unlikely to give raiders an advantage over PvPers and others in terms of being able to monopolize that part of the market. If anything, I'm under the impression all relevant crafted materials will be available in the Galactic Command crates in order to provide that equal and fair progression for all.

 

2) We don't even know how many sets there are going to be. For PvP there has been an unranked set and a ranked set. For PvE, there has been the common set, the glowing set, the radiant set, and then the operation set. I'm not expecting the lowest tier set to be that difficult to obtain as players that are participating in harder content will likely move up to the next tier of gear rather quickly.

 

3) Warzones are going to be a nightmare. Unless BioWare retroactively upscales ranked PvP gear to be the equivalent of NiM Op gear (224), raiders will have a huge advantage in PvP. That will be the case until we are able to start collecting the new Galactic Command gear anyway, but it's definitely an oversight on BioWare's part.

[gabigool]

Do you really believe BioWare has not already considered the pitfalls many are bringing up? Do you truly believe they are that incompetent when it comes to game design?

 

Game design that impacts players that subscribe (or play) primarily for Operations or PvP? Yes, most certainly. Although perhaps ignorant is a better word.

 

The Operations themselves have been great. However the structure around them has been horrible. Most of us are here despite the decision-making in this area, not because of it.

 

I am not knocking the studio or its employees. Nor I do not think it's an intentional slight. It's just that the decision making has consistently shown a lack of understanding of why such players are here. At no point since the stream have I given a moment's thought to the idea that someone from Bioware understands what this type of gearing model means to guilds such as mine and players such as myself. Because I do believe they do not want us to go. And I believe anyone who understands this aspect of MMO gameplay would also understand this model kills our enjoyment of this game. Starting 12/2 we can't raid seriously anymore. We can't do fun stuff anymore. Until when? that's the best part. We don't know.

 

Again, I'm not trying to pick on them. You just asked a simple, probably rhetorical question, but I do not know anyone - I mean, literally anyone - I speak with that wouldn't agree with what I've just said. And I'm pretty sure the studio doesn't understand why. As such, no, I do not believe they have thought through the actual problems this system creates for raiding guilds. Because they do not know what they are.

 

Listen, I can think of 20 people that would be happy to sit down with Eric and discuss the problem. Myself included. These forums are a cesspool and the relevant info gets diluted in moments here. There's nothing of value to be gleaned here. It's just a bunch of people venting or trolling. Anything resembling a constructive conversation is obliterated by post 5.

 

This requires someone to sit down with them and walk them through what actually happens in the day to day and what this means to teams that have played together for 2,3,4 or more years. What this means to players that raid on multiple characters, in multiple guilds and on multiple servers. Players that play multiple characters. The game wont be fun on 12/2 for us. It's over.

 

No, I don't think they understand that. They don't understand how far this pushes players from the content they want to be doing. Players that are serious are going to have to choose between activities they hate and limited raid opportunities. There is no angle from which that is an enjoyable experience for players that PvE seriously, and I suspect my PvP brothers are in the same boat.

 

So, no, I don't think they have thought it through.

[IanArgent]

I honestly don't think they realized what the impact of even a month-long elongation of the regearing process would be for end-game raiders.

 

One way out from under this would be to delay dropping the rescale of content until it is reasonable for the current end-game players to have geared up to face the rescale. (This is a bad idea required to patch around a worse idea)

 

At the same time, though, I do not think it's reasonable to expect rising end-game players to take months to grind to fill out their character to endgame gearing.

[Jadescythe]

I don't think anyone is even considering the grind to even START your real grind. Sure, you'll start getting boxes at character level 70, but that won't be the best gear. You have to grind out your comand levels towards the max to even start getting your RNG drops for the best stuff as I understand the system. It isn't just 1 RNG grind, it's a constant RNG grind to even get some decent gear before you start the RNG grind for the good stuff.