Player Choice (in reply to Musco)

[Chessack]

I find all these threads laughable. Take two of my own characters, one has lost no companions though storyline the other has lost several. (not counting old comps not returned yet)

 

OK, fair enough, but,this points out one problem with the way it is structured: you have to play through multiple times to see that the choices matter. The consequences of, say, doing the thing that upsets Koth into leaving, are not evident to someone who didn't do that. So to anyone who played through it once, that person would not know you could lose the Gravestone at the end.

 

This is not true of the class stories. When you do certain things they clearly have immediate consequences. For example, as the Trooper there is a point where you can stop to disarm a bomb or let it go off and kill someone. I chose to let the guy die... and next time I was at my ship holo, I got dressed down for it by the General. The action had an immediate consequence.

 

If you do all the things that prevent you from losing companions, then it looks like there were no consequences because one of the two possible consequences is a lack of outcome. You can't know there was a consequence when something doesn't happen. This makes it appear that even the few consequences there are, aren't even present. For example, I only know it is possible to lose those few companions because of the forums. If I hadn't read the threads here, I wouldn't have known you could lose the Gravestone, Koth, etc. It's not apparent from anything that happens in the story -- not at all.

 

Also, I would argue that, other than Koth, no significant companions can be lost. By the end of KOTFE, you have like 97 companions (hyperbole). Other than Koth, Theron, and Lana, they're all interchangeable and completely indistinguishable from one another. So I lose Kaliyo. Unless I'm a BH why would I care? I have zero past relationship with her.

 

But the other problem is that they DO present you with choices that seem like they should be impactful. The biggies are (1) whether to accept/reject V, (2) whether to kill Arcann, (3) whether to kill Senya. All of these are clear-cut choices with Dark/Light options etc. They are clear either/or situations. And they should have MAJOR consequences. But none of them do. The story happens only one way, whatever you choose in these instances.

 

So the 'choices that matter' are mostly-trivial ones that affect who is on our companion roster (when we have way more than we need anyway), and the really important choices, like whether to kill a major character, really don't matter at all.

 

If any of you thought choices would be different to that then I question your common sense. Also I note that while there are lots of these threads NONE yet has even given a reasonable choice that could of happened.

 

Sure we have. You're not reading carefully enough.

 

Kill Arcan? Ok fine kill him and then BW puts up a rolling dialog saying, This is now the end of this characters storyline. In your choice matters KotET does not happen. Feel free to start a new character.

 

Honestly I would have ZERO problem with this. I consider my level 65 who went through KOTFE to be effectively 'retired' now anyway (story wise, I cannot use her for ANYTHING else now, as a RPer, since she has moved into a different timeline from every other planet in the galaxy other than Odessen and Zakull). I didn't like the KOTFE story so I am not really looking forward to KOTET and not sure I will even play it. So I'd have absolutely NO problem with them saying that because of my choice, the Eternal Empire was defeated, my story is over, and my character cannot be used for future expansions.

 

This really would be a consequence... and I'd be fine with it.

 

However, I do not think that they needed to do anything this drastic to make choices matter.

 

But you are also buying into a false premise. BW wrote a story where they are going to use Arcann in season 2, and consequently they could not let you kill him. They why give me the choice? Just don't... and I won't complain about it so much. The choice is a lie... and so are many others. And THAT is actually worse than having no choice given to you at all.

 

Any choice in game has to be done in a way BW can continue the story, BW could not write a thousand different storylines to cater for any other choice than what BW are doing now.

 

If that's so -- if they don't have the manpower to do anything other than ONE storyline -- that's fine. Then don't tell me choices matter. Just be honest.

[Exly]

Using player choice as an excuse to take away companions that we were encouraged to spend time, credits and in some cases real money to increase influence on was cruel and unnecessary.

 

When I first heard that people were losing companions due to choices made, all that it meant to me was that I should stop trying to gain influence with them just in case they chose to take some away from me.

[OldVengeance]

We don't have any superiors anymore.

 

For example, the Sith Inquisitor is the rightful Emperor of the Sith Empire as of the point he is out of carbonite. He only has Darth Acina and the Sith Warrior as possible rival claimants.

 

Everyone else, we've left the Republic/Empire and basically founded our own Resistance. So basically how Leia has no superiors. It's established cannon that the Resistance is not affiliated with the New Republic as of Ep7. We are in Leia's position as the leader of that alliance/resistance.

 

I don't think being one of the missing Dark Council members would make the Inquisitor more of a rightful ruler of the Sith Empire than the one who was left, but regardless, I mentioned our characters' subordinates as well (or peers in some cases). Our Sith characters were already above Lana even in Shadow of Revan for example, yet she and Theron were often the ones formulating the team's objectives on Rishi.

[FixerFortyKay]

I don't think being one of the missing Dark Council members would make the Inquisitor more of a rightful ruler of the Sith Empire than the one who was left, but regardless, I mentioned our characters' subordinates as well (or peers in some cases). Our Sith characters were already above Lana even in Shadow of Revan for example, yet she and Theron were often the ones formulating the team's objectives on Rishi.

 

The situation is different there though. There was no real power structure between the characters. You were a small team working against a conspiracy in your own government. After chapter 9 you're supposed to be the supreme Commander of the Alliance. Everyone in that base is your subordinate to some degree.

[Zasszz]

I understand that we receive mostly orders from our alliance officers from the time since we are free out of carbonite. I dont feel like an alliance commander in power, I feel like a puppet just in the seat because my officers put me there thinking people will take orders from me when infact the orders come from the officers. Im more like a messenger.

 

Things that really bugged me on my dark side chars are the connections between the decision to join valkorion and the fight against arcann on asylum. In the latter case you dictate the outcome only if you refuse valkorions offer in chapter one.

I didnt play through the chapters for some time after Ive done two runs. One with my token char who nearly gets everything wrong and my main sorcerer whos supposed to get everything right. I hesitated to play another char through because I couldnt tell how my actions were screwing up the outcomes. There was no way for me to tell how to get the asylum choice I wanted. Not until someone figured it out and told me. But that didnt make it much better. I felt punished as a dark side player when only light side chars have a choice in that situation.

 

The other thing is the recruitement. I didnt want to recruit kaliyo, I wanted her dead on every char and definately NOT on odessen where she screwed things up from the reports but I had no choice but to take her. It got even worse that my main wasnt allowed to kill her because she screwed up either way, by bombing a hospital or for disobeying orders. I made a choice and then the game turned it against me. At the time of the chapter to decide if kaliyo or aric should do something it was a good idea to try both options with both chars. My main couldnt kill kaliyo while my 2nd char didnt want to kill aric because it didnt feel right. Again the game screwed me up and took away my choice. A choice would have been to decide who I could kill. Now I know I have to make a decision at one point which I dont feel comfortable with to get the desired outcome.

I have to plan my decision for a desired outcome because I dont have a choice! How dumb is that?

 

I tried to correct all that with my dark side jedi. Well, at least I was able to get the desired outcome on asylum, killed kyliyo and even the romance with theron worked. So I had three chars on the same level when mandalores revenge got released. At this point I stopped playing my token screw up char and got an event char, light side this time. Nearly everything worked as predicted except the romance bugged again.

 

Ok, still three chars for the last chapters. All cleared but as others pointed out, its not a victory. Senya, as usual, didnt care about anything but her own goals, my army of recruits was nowhere to be seen, vaylin nowhere to be seen, scorpio sabotaging everything for no reason, arcann surviving my useless "improved" weapon and the falling debris and I was denied to shoot him and his egoistical, disobedient mother only to find out that scorpio turns against me to join an enemy who doesnt give a scrap about anyone.

At that point it feels like a total defeat with only odessen still floating around waiting to get vaporized by either the eternal fleet whos allied with the throne or getting overrun by ground troops from the eternal throne.

 

So I have a hard time taking eric musco serious when he talks about player choices who are no choices at all because cause and effect are too far away. This is obvious in the planning stages, not after everything is done.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Zasszz

[FixerFortyKay]

The other thing is the recruitement. I didnt want to recruit kaliyo, I wanted her dead on every char and definately NOT on odessen where she screwed things up from the reports but I had no choice but to take her. It got even worse that my main wasnt allowed to kill her because she screwed up either way, by bombing a hospital or for disobeying orders. I made a choice and then the game turned it against me. At the time of the chapter to decide if kaliyo or aric should do something it was a good idea to try both options with both chars. My main couldnt kill kaliyo while my 2nd char didnt want to kill aric because it didnt feel right. Again the game screwed me up and took away my choice. A choice would have been to decide who I could kill. Now I know I have to make a decision at one point which I dont feel comfortable with to get the desired outcome.

I have to plan my decision for a desired outcome because I dont have a choice! How dumb is that?

 

 

This is one that has bugged me as well.

Without knowing ahead of time the outcome of Chapter 12/13 there's way you could plan for killing off Kaliyo/Aric.

 

A trooper sends Aric to hit the communication hub. She doesn't trust Kaliyo to do it and in fact, wants that untrustworthy crazy person off her base. It goes pear shaped. I order Kaliyo to save Aric because I believe that's the best plan of action.

 

A month later you discover you can no-longer get rid of her because she didn't disobey your order. Important outcomes are still indirect from your actions.

[Cuiwe]

Are you so certain that even in real life you have some kind of big influence over the events? In my experience, events remain the same, it's just people around you that change. Which swtor never really portrayed well because of the lack of ability to kill off the characters(or refuse their help). Malavai, Tyresius(Gault) etc etc. They could've made that if you killed / refused Skadge, the Black Sun would send you a melee tank droid or if you went through with Gault contract, someone got inspired and joined your crew(rDPS). There are ways, it's just that BW was often reluctant(at best) to explore them. Or often ignored it at worst. Edited September 19, 2016 by Cuiwe

[Zasszz]

The actual outcome is unchanged, right. Look at the conversation before you get to decide who you can kill.

 

The only choice you have is how badly kaliyo screws up. Kaliyo screws up the mission by getting caught with her pants down, gets havoc killed and causes collateral damage. You can only kill her if you send aric in and she refuses to stay put and you use only the third conversation options during the end of chapter 13.

 

A choice would have been to select to kill kaliyo for not staying put, getting havoc killed or to kill aric for disobeying or getting caught. But we dont have that choice in that moment except if we coincidently used the choice we desire in chapter 12. Choices must be immediate. Currently they are mostly not.

 

I see eric agreeing on that point but given the feedback his team received after chapter 13, he has no excuse for the end of chapter 16 where our choices dont matter at all even when they are immediate.

 

If our choices will matter in the future, we need at least two different outcomes. Like in mass effect 3 where we had at least 3 different endings. But I doubt we will see that here. The ending of chapter 16 is the story for the next expansion. So I can understand alittle that we wont see different endings/outcomes here.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Zasszz

[FixerFortyKay]

That's what I meant. You have to give the character an Order that they will disobey.

You can't know they'll disobey it until you give the order.

You don't know that them disobeying the order is the only thing that will allow you to exile or kill them ahead of time. (there's no YOU HAVE FAILED ME FOR THE LAST TIME force choking here)

 

Without a previous playthrough or strategy guide there's no logical way you could divine ahead of time that those choices would be the ones that would allow you to get a desired result, which in this case means removing one of those characters.

[Gokkus]

I find all these threads laughable. Take two of my own characters, one has lost no companions though storyline the other has lost several. (not counting old comps not returned yet)

 

Yeah yeah fine, but that is not the point. You get to make decisions that do NOTHING under the illusion of it being of importance. I.e. killing Satele, killing Arcann, shooting down Senya, etc.

In addition, you feel very much like everyone commands you instead of you being the commander. THAT is what this thread is about. Not about whether some decisions influence the game in some non-mainstory way.

Are you so certain that even in real life you have some kind of big influence over the events? In my experience, events remain the same, it's just people around you that change. Which swtor never really portrayed well because of the lack of ability to kill off the characters(or refuse their help). Malavai, Tyresius(Gault) etc etc. They could've made that if you killed / refused Skadge, the Black Sun would send you a melee tank droid or if you went through with Gault contract, someone got inspired and joined your crew(rDPS). There are ways, it's just that BW was often reluctant(at best) to explore them. Or often ignored it at worst.

 

In real life, we are 1 in a few billion people that will largely only impact our surroundings. In SWTOR you are (apart from Valkorion maybe) the most important person in the galaxy, that is quite a big difference from real life.

Not to mention all the times the game claims you are the chosen one, you have a destiny, you are different from everybody else, you are their only hope, etc. That pretty much implies we can have a significant impact on the galaxy.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Gokkus

[Savej]

I don't think the issue is one of storytelling, it's gameplay. I'm told I'm a commander of a galactic force, a huge war game is set up, but I never get to play it. How many troops do I have? How many planets? How large is the enemy fleet? How many planets are under Zakuul's control? Those are just basic questions that a commander should be able to answer, right? But for all purposes I'm just watching a show about someone that has the answers to those questions. The drama, suspense, tension... isn't really there when I don't feel like there's any way I can "win" or "lose" anything other than a companion or two (that I can't even customize which means I don't use them outside of crafting anyways). While I love many good TV shows and movies, for my day-to-day gaming this format and the massive amount of work done on it are largely a waste and have nothing to do with why I started playing or why I'm still playing.

[JediAkemi]

I wouldn't mind the [Kill person X] choices failing if they were actually labeled as [Attack] rather than [Kill].

 

Chapter XII - no way to kill Satele, so label it [Attack Satele]. That way it doesn't feel as fake when the attack does nothing.

 

Chapter XVI - call the [Kill Arcann] option [strike Him Down] or something. It still implies that you're going to finish him (and you try your hardest - lousy Ceiling Ex Machina) but allows the possibility that something or someone might stop you.

Same deal with trying to blow up the shuttle carrying Senya & Arcann. If it was labeled [Attack] or [Open Fire] then it wouldn't be as big a kick in the teeth that they escape.

[FixerFortyKay]

I wouldn't mind the [Kill person X] choices failing if they were actually labeled as [Attack] rather than [Kill].

 

Chapter XII - no way to kill Satele, so label it [Attack Satele]. That way it doesn't feel as fake when the attack does nothing.

 

Chapter XVI - call the [Kill Arcann] option [strike Him Down] or something. It still implies that you're going to finish him (and you try your hardest - lousy Ceiling Ex Machina) but allows the possibility that something or someone might stop you.

Same deal with trying to blow up the shuttle carrying Senya & Arcann. If it was labeled [Attack] or [Open Fire] then it wouldn't be as big a kick in the teeth that they escape.

 

The underlying problem is that regardless of the name, [ATTACK] or [KILL] is unsuccessful.

You can get away with the character not succeeding in an attack or a kill some of the time, but when it happens every time there's a major character it becomes a choice between [THE JEDI PLOT] and [FAILURE].

 

Two failures in a row against Arcann after a bunch of other defeats and betrayals at the conclusion of the story isn't great.

[Zasszz]

The underlying problem is that regardless of the name, [ATTACK] or [KILL] is unsuccessful.

It would change the way we think about the outcome right now.

[FixerFortyKay]

It would change the way we think about the outcome right now.

 

Changing the name of the option to one that suggests the possibility for failure still doesn't change the problem that any choice that does not follow the set path will automatically fail.

 

When the outcome is identical the "choice that matters" comes down to letting your character follow the path the writers planned or choose for him to be a loser who only ever fails at trying to change the result.

Edited September 19, 2016 by FixerFortyKay

[PlasmaJohn]

Yeah, we heard that song when they announced KotFE. Or are you saying that BW Austin has the foresight to think two expansions ahead? I have seen nothing from this studio to lend any credit to that assessment.

Seems pretty obvious that they always intended this story to stretch across multiple ex-packs. Just the number of missing companions alone should have been a hint. I'm sure they had contingency plans if 1-9 wasn't so well received. Unfortunately the ending of KotFE was unsatisfying to a large amount of people.

 

I personally think dragging it out across multiple years is a huge mistake. Worse, they still haven't resolved the Vitiate arc that started at launch. That's really poor storytelling. Very typical of EA's spin on "BioWare". Or maybe the real storytellers were the folks from Black Isle Studios. *shrugs*

[Keta]

I've said this elsewhere before, but I'll repeat this example to show how easily it could be done. ...

 

 

If you draw that storyline out on paper it looks like a football, digressing then converging. That's the way it should look. As it is now, we have no reason to believe it's much other than a straight line where choices result in side effects only.

[OldVengeance]

The situation is different there though. There was no real power structure between the characters. You were a small team working against a conspiracy in your own government. After chapter 9 you're supposed to be the supreme Commander of the Alliance. Everyone in that base is your subordinate to some degree.

 

As a Sith Lord there are still elements of the Sith hierarchy in play in your interactions with Lana over the course of the Shadow of Revan, especially later on. But that's not even the only example. In Rise of the Hutt Cartel you are explicitly given command of the Imperial operation there. I think Makeb maybe gave us a few more moments of feeling like you were in charge, but the basic premise of minions formulating the objectives and sending you off to do the was the same.

Edited September 19, 2016 by OldVengeance

[Cuiwe]

Yeah yeah fine, but that is not the point. You get to make decisions that do NOTHING under the illusion of it being of importance. I.e. killing Satele, killing Arcann, shooting down Senya, etc.

In addition, you feel very much like everyone commands you instead of you being the commander. THAT is what this thread is about. Not about whether some decisions influence the game in some non-mainstory way.

 

 

In real life, we are 1 in a few billion people that will largely only impact our surroundings. In SWTOR you are (apart from Valkorion maybe) the most important person in the galaxy, that is quite a big difference from real life.

Not to mention all the times the game claims you are the chosen one, you have a destiny, you are different from everybody else, you are their only hope, etc. That pretty much implies we can have a significant impact on the galaxy.

 

Disagreed. BW was always more about relations between the characters(something that's missing from swtor as well), reactions of characters to occurences and overcoming obstacles as a team. If you want consenquences, cause and effect and really two fingers thick story, maybe you should go with Obsidian? Idk, both BW and Obs are good at what they do. I like Obs more tbh.

 

Besides, world changes are just smokes, mirrors and theatricality. Very effective if pulled off properly. If a studio can't make this work or seem plausible, it should just refocus its efforts into something else.

[FixerFortyKay]

As a Sith Lord there are still elements of the Sith hierarchy in play in your interactions with Lana over the course of the Shadow of Revan, especially later on. But that's not even the only example. In Rise of the Hutt Cartel you are explicitly given command of the Imperial operation there. I think Makeb maybe gave us a few more moments of feeling like you were in charge, but the basic premise of minions formulating the objectives and sending you off to do the was the same.

 

I think Imperial side Makeb was actually handled pretty well.

It was made clear you were the only person capable of leading the operation to victory. When the first plan went sour, you declare what the new goal is and you can demand every applicable resource in the Empire to be pointed towards finding the solution.

 

They then give you the solution, and you go and kick butt to get that done while they act as support. Even dying in the line of duty to get you towards victory.

 

Even though the story is essentially on rails, the choices you make plus the fact your character is the one driving the story/tone makes you feel much more involved. Whereas a lot of KotFE Chapter 10-16 you've felt like a follower to someone else's mission or a passive observer to the Valkorion family feuds.

[SFDebris]

I think Imperial side Makeb was actually handled pretty well.

It was made clear you were the only person capable of leading the operation to victory. When the first plan went sour, you declare what the new goal is and you can demand every applicable resource in the Empire to be pointed towards finding the solution.

 

They then give you the solution, and you go and kick butt to get that done while they act as support. Even dying in the line of duty to get you towards victory.

 

Even though the story is essentially on rails, the choices you make plus the fact your character is the one driving the story/tone makes you feel much more involved. Whereas a lot of KotFE Chapter 10-16 you've felt like a follower to someone else's mission or a passive observer to the Valkorion family feuds.

 

Exactly, RotHC at least made it feel like you were in charge, KOTFE makes it feel like you're the puppet leader with Lana and Theron pulling the strings. The story needs a fundamental transformation in season two to try to regain the sense that the person called the Commander actually feels like they're in command. Like I said, it's a magic trick, and right now, BW is proving to be a godawful magician.

[ZanyaCross]

I think Imperial side Makeb was actually handled pretty well.

It was made clear you were the only person capable of leading the operation to victory. When the first plan went sour, you declare what the new goal is and you can demand every applicable resource in the Empire to be pointed towards finding the solution.

 

They then give you the solution, and you go and kick butt to get that done while they act as support. Even dying in the line of duty to get you towards victory.

 

Even though the story is essentially on rails, the choices you make plus the fact your character is the one driving the story/tone makes you feel much more involved. Whereas a lot of KotFE Chapter 10-16 you've felt like a follower to someone else's mission or a passive observer to the Valkorion family feuds.

 

This, so much this.

[Nempo]

Get off the kill Koth train people. I laugh at how people harp on him yet give a pass for characters that are the EXACT same way...yet because we know about the Republic or Empire we give them a pass. Koth is simple, he wants to save his people. He has never once whitnessed the emperor be anything but awesome in regards to the populace of zykuul, so why would he just believe you? He hates senya for a simple reason, she's spent 4-5 YEARS hunting him...you would have a pretty big antagonistic relationship with someone who you've been running away from for so long.

 

Koth is actually funny at times. Yes he is a moral high road character...and he is JUST AS PREACHY as any pure lightside PC.

The great irony is people have all this hate for him...when he is basically an npc version of every pc out there. He IS you. You fight for the rep or empire, against the other side...you do whatever you can to ensure your people survive. He simply wants zykuulans to be spared...same as you feel for your own faction. Now you get a taste of yourselves and cannot stand it, and should now have a greater appreciation of all of those npc's you hated while leveling that couldn't stand you and treated you like crap/like you didn't matter.

 

All that said, my dark play through will totally kill his *** for stealing the gravestone, traitors die. That play through will put him and senya in side by side graves.

[Khaleijo]

...

All that said, my dark play through will totally kill his *** for stealing the gravestone, traitors die. That play through will put him and senya in side by side graves.

 

Only if you'll get the chance to kil him. And not a "choice that doesn't matter" like with chapter 16. Considering how KOTFE was handled, you'll probably get the conversation choice "kill" but nothing happens to him anyway.

That is what is discussed here. This whole thread isn't about hate for Koth or not, it is about the construction of choices behind the scenes. Koth is only mentioned because the choice resulting in him leaving and stealing is the only choice that alters the outcome of the story at least a little bit.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Khaleijo

[SFDebris]

The great irony is people have all this hate for him...when he is basically an npc version of every pc out there.

 

I can partially agree with this. Koth is exactly like being paired with an a-hole player:

1) Convinced he's awesome when he isn't

2) Hates on you if you don't do things his way

3) Believes he has first claim on any loot discovered

4) Thinks his terrible attempts at wit are awesome

5) Will rage quit

6) Will use exploits to take your loot

 

Bioware is to be commended: they were so intent on recreating for the solo player the group player experience, they even forced a dick player on your team.