CM - CC - Gold sellers: let's speak of the devil

[Deewe]

The gold spammers are getting out of hand and it's becoming annoying to have to deal with them.

 

Some even wonder whether BioWare don't do much about them because it's profitable for them to have these people running multiple accounts. I'd say it's more because they don't see this as much of an issue vs the effort needed to mitigate the issue.

 

Due to BioWare lack of proper management with those spammers we all know Gold Sellers and Scammers

are selling illegally gold at roundly $5/10M credits.

 

On the other side we have CM items and packs without a fixed price.

If you buy CC from BioWare a CM crate at 250CC would cost from $1.70 to $2.00 depending on which CM coins stack you get.

 

On my server the packs (not crates) that we buy for 250CC goes from 1.2M to 2.5M

 

So by selling cates at 2.5M each you need about 1000CC to make 10M by selling unopened crates, ie $6.80.

 

I guess BioWare should just sell gold and gold sellers would be way less profitable as people would rather pay a bit more but still being legit and not having to manage to sell crates and so.

 

In the end we players suffer from the spammers because BioWare doesn't do enough against this issue.

[Kallie]

So we need another topic

[Setta]

So we need another topic

 

Well ya, obviously if you can't beat them, join them.

[MACharlieV]

As I said in the other thread, this would spike inflation and everything in the game would become more expensive. Thus anyone who isn't buying credits (perhaps on top of their subscription) is at a big disadvantage and it becomes pay to win.

[Kheeleb]

As I said in the other thread, this would spike inflation and everything in the game would become more expensive. Thus anyone who isn't buying credits (perhaps on top of their subscription) is at a big disadvantage and it becomes pay to win.

 

I agree, BW should never sell credits directly. But there are other ways to handle the situation.

 

They could implement a "currency broker", where players can buy credits from other players for cartel coins, like GW2 does. This would not impact inflation because the credits aren't just generated and throwed into the game. Then they should implement a CM item that grants a month sub on use, so there is a sink for all the CCs people get from selling their credits.

 

Or, like many other MMOs do, just implement a one month sub token, obtainable for real money, and tradeable in the GTN. Problem solved.

[Halinalle]

When do you CM haters understand this one very simple thing?

 

Selling items in GTN doesn't put more credits into game. In fact, it's actually removing credits from the game.

 

Now, credit sellers get their credits by doing things that add credits to game: slicing, TH lockboxes when they still gave credits, etc. Things that can be easily automated. Reason why they can sell the credits at low price is because they got them through effortless activities. If you've ever seen slicing bot running around then you know what I mean by that. There's no player playing on that character, it's just a script.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Halinalle

[Celise]

I agree, BW should never sell credits directly. But there are other ways to handle the situation.

 

They could implement a "currency broker", where players can buy credits from other players for cartel coins, like GW2 does. This would not impact inflation because the credits aren't just generated and throwed into the game. Then they should implement a CM item that grants a month sub on use, so there is a sink for all the CCs people get from selling their credits.

 

Or, like many other MMOs do, just implement a one month sub token, obtainable for real money, and tradeable in the GTN. Problem solved.

 

STO has this system through dilithium to zen conversion, the problem with this system is that it won't work as well as you may expect, when i left STO months ago the dilithium to zen conversation was at a ratio or around 400 to 1, the upper limit is 500, at the current rate i worked out for a 3000z ship, it would take over a year at the current numbers to make up 3k zen. and that is insane. i would never want to see that system on here, it was blatantly fall into the hands of the CC sellers where they could charge extortionist sums of special currency for 1 CC.

[DeVanagloris]

Gold sellers have been there for years already. Just ignore them, and qhen your ignore list is full, empty it and start filling it again.

[Zasszz]

So we need another topic

When bioware starts to act, we might stop reminding them to act.

[Andryah]

First, I think we all can agree that credit sellers are bad, and should be punished wherever they are found.

 

Now... this idea here.... BAD IDEA.

 

Why?

 

1) Because a studio selling credits actually does inflate the credit supply in game. And they can't throttle the supply once they start selling credits directly to players for real money. They would have to sell to any/every player at the listed price, or face severe blowback from players. In fact, they will get severe blowback anyway.... as evidenced simply by the blowback that comes from some players over the concept of a CM to begin with.

 

2) Whereas, credit sellers (evil and punishable in the extreme) do not add any credits into the credit supply of a server economy. They buy credits from one player, mark up the RMT price, and then resell them to another player. For all the ills of credit sellers, they are credit neutral to the economy.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Andryah

[ikinai]

My father has sent me a memo that he would like to convey to everyone:

 

"I, Lucifer, commonly referred to as the devil, categorically deny any involvement in these credit or gold selling schemes. These schemes are purely 100% man-made problems. Now, I may have caused a few problems, here and there, but this, no, this one is not me."

 

I'm pretty sure he still doesn't understand idioms and colloquialisms, he's kinda old fashioned and takes everything sooo literally. He also thinks it would be a bad idea for Bioware to sell credits directly to the people, so yeah, even the devil thinks it's a bad idea.

[Thoronmir]

My father has sent me a memo that he would like to convey to everyone:

 

"I, Lucifer, commonly referred to as the devil, categorically deny any involvement in these credit or gold selling schemes. These schemes are purely 100% man-made problems. Now, I may have caused a few problems, here and there, but this, no, this one is not me."

 

I'm pretty sure he still doesn't understand idioms and colloquialisms, he's kinda old fashioned and takes everything sooo literally. He also thinks it would be a bad idea for Bioware to sell credits directly to the people, so yeah, even the devil thinks it's a bad idea.

So ... your real name is Lucy. Good to know.

 

All these discussions about gold-sellers and inflation and cartel items and GTN and economonics confuse and anger me. You folks may understand these matters, but I'm just a caveman. I was found frozen in ice and thawed by your scientists. Then I went to law school. I marvel at the glow-box thing that brings me updates on the status of my diversified investment portfolio. When I watch adult moves on my compu-box, I wonder, are there little, naked people inside the Magic Laptop of Stimulation? Can they see me like I can see them? I may be a simple caveman lawyer, unschooled in the high finance world of videogames, but this much I know ...

 

The primary cause of inflation is adding currency to a market. Currency-neutral transactions (e.g., I sell you this Smilodon-bone club for your credits) does not cause inflation. Activities that create new currency (e.g., tradeskills) may be the genesis of transactions that cause inflation, but said inflation does not occur until someone uses the newly minted credits to purchase that shiny thing (either via trade or the GTN). Direct selling of credits by EA/BW would do nothing to ease inflation ... it would exacerbate it. I'll never buy credits from a credit-seller ... mainly because it's against the rules. But legalize direct purchase of credits from EA/BW, and I have no reason to not buy credits ... thus minting new credits, which I would use to buy a new loincloth or maybe a stone wheel ... thus leading to rampant inflation of caveman-related goods.

 

The easier it is to earn gil, the less reason any player has to resort to RMT purchase of coin. Making it harder to generate income simply drives players into the arms of the credit-sellers. Yes, easy acquisition of Quatloos allows currency-brokers to more easily build their stashes. But they can only sell those tainted credits to willing buyers. There will likely always be some segment of the player population willing to risk security breaches and possible banishment from the game to buy credits. There will always be players who steadfastly refuse to buy currency. We should focus our efforts on winning the hearts and minds of the players in the middle ... players who prefer to earn their own credits, as long as doing so doesn't become either a job or a mini-game.

 

RIP Phil Hartman

 

 

EDIT: I was considering trying Star Trek Online (inspired by BBC America's Star Trek marathon last weekend), until I learned that the Quatloo is not the official in-game currency.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Thoronmir

[ikinai]

So ... your real name is Lucy. Good to know.

 

 

 

RIP Phil Hartman

 

 

EDIT: I was considering trying Star Trek Online (inspired by BBC America's Star Trek marathon last weekend), until I learned that the Quatloo is not the official in-game currency.

 

Indubitably, the spoiler oh so much so very much missed, and I wish my daddy named me Lucy, that's my oh so perfect older sister. *glares in her general direction, I think that's where she is*

 

And your explanation is quite correct, even for a caveman lawyer, taken from the frozen ice.

[Deewe]

When do you CM haters understand this one very simple thing?

 

Selling items in GTN doesn't put more credits into game. In fact, it's actually removing credits from the game.

 

Now, credit sellers get their credits by doing things that add credits to game: slicing, TH lockboxes when they still gave credits, etc. Things that can be easily automated. Reason why they can sell the credits at low price is because they got them through effortless activities. If you've ever seen slicing bot running around then you know what I mean by that. There's no player playing on that character, it's just a script.

You are right the GTN removes 6% of the total amount of each successful transaction.

 

The issues with nodes is the spawning area isn't random so even a pretty simple autohotkey macro can automate gathering.

 

The primary cause of inflation is adding currency to a market. Currency-neutral transactions (e.g., I sell you this Smilodon-bone club for your credits) does not cause inflation. Activities that create new currency (e.g., tradeskills) may be the genesis of transactions that cause inflation, but said inflation does not occur until someone uses the newly minted credits to purchase that shiny thing (either via trade or the GTN). Direct selling of credits by EA/BW would do nothing to ease inflation ... it would exacerbate it. I'll never buy credits from a credit-seller ... mainly because it's against the rules. But legalize direct purchase of credits from EA/BW, and I have no reason to not buy credits ... thus minting new credits, which I would use to buy a new loincloth or maybe a stone wheel ... thus leading to rampant inflation of caveman-related goods.

 

The easier it is to earn gil, the less reason any player has to resort to RMT purchase of coin. Making it harder to generate income simply drives players into the arms of the credit-sellers. Yes, easy acquisition of Quatloos allows currency-brokers to more easily build their stashes. But they can only sell those tainted credits to willing buyers. There will likely always be some segment of the player population willing to risk security breaches and possible banishment from the game to buy credits. There will always be players who steadfastly refuse to buy currency. We should focus our efforts on winning the hearts and minds of the players in the middle ... players who prefer to earn their own credits, as long as doing so doesn't become either a job or a mini-game.

Good analysis.

 

Now I might be the only one but I don't mind any inflation, that is provided earning credits rises by roundly the same amount. Although it would be an issue for players returning after a long break.

 

I guess by going the illegal route, players are assured to get a specific amount of credits for their hard earned money in a matter of minutes....

 

Versus with the randomness in the CM packs players don't know how much they're going to get. Then there's the hassle of having to go through the whole GTN lackluster feature. And if you open the packs to sell items individually you have to wait 2 days before being even able to sell the items.

 

So the trade off of taking the risk to being banned might look a minor inconvenience for some players, otherwise credits sellers would have been long gone. Going on a limb here: pretty sure BioWare doesn't ban that much players buying creds as not only it's difficult to prove and by banning a player you might certainly never see his cash in game again.

[Andryah]

Now I might be the only one but I don't mind any inflation, that is provided earning credits rises by roundly the same amount. Although it would be an issue for players returning after a long break.

 

As long as the broad ability to earn credits => then the broad requirement to expend, I also have no issue.

 

SWTOR overall, has done a good job of balancing income vs expense in the game.

 

Many items in game in fact suffer modest deflation over time. There are of course always some hot commodities in higher demand than supply, and the market takes care of that through normal buy/sell demand balancing between players.

 

Where people get wound around the axle here in the forum is when they look at some super super rare and highly collectable item on the GTN that came from the CM. These are small in number and are something that is very much on the wealthy collectors end of the player base, as it should be. Just like real life. But some people disagree, and want these super rare and coveted items to be low priced so they can buy them too. So some people demand price fixing on the GTN by the studio, which will simply drive players out of the GTN and spamming up the chat channels. Some people want super rare things to be so common that they are common and therefore low priced, which is the antithesis of what most players desire in terms of super rare collectable items they can use as braging rights or other vanity endeavors.

 

A significant ongoing cap to inflationary pressures in SWTOR is the fact that most of us earn credits faster then we can/will spend them. So.. guess what.. they sit in our wallets, and may or may not ever be spent. If they are not in circulation, then they do not apply any inflationary pressures in the economy. Same is true for players that quit the game and leave credit balances on their characters.

 

As for returning players, since 4.0, credits flow really freely in many places in this game, so any returning player can be back up the curve fairly quickly. 4.0+ is new player friendly and returning veteran friendly to qood degree. That's a good thing, IMO.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Andryah

[Rolodome]

Adding the ability to buy credits directly from the store is not inherently a bad idea. GW2 does it and it hasn't ruined their economy.

 

BUT... GW2 also has at least one dedicated economist on staff, whose job revolves around managing (and occasionally micro-managing) the workings of the economy. Unfortunately, it's kind of one of those "go big or go home" situations. And going big requires money money money.

 

I don't have any reason to believe that they aren't trying to stop the gold sellers to the utmost of their abilities. I've had some "come on..." moments, but overall, you have to keep in mind what they're up against. It's sort of like the fight between anti-virus and virus-creation/proliferation. The only way to end the battle outright, in this case, is to restrict things to such a degree that it probably disrupts/hurts legit players in the process. Plenty of bright and experienced game devs have tried to figure out how to stop the gold selling problem completely, with mixed levels of success.

 

Part of what makes it difficult is that many of these guys are a result of bad economic conditions in whatever country, state, town, village that they live in. They turn to shady businesses like these because doing things on the up and up never made off. Sure, there are criminals who probably enjoy it, but if most of these guys had legit jobs going strong and money wasn't a concern, I doubt they'd be doing it. Which means, they care... a lot. For some of the individuals, their livelihood depends on it working.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying I approve of it in any way, shape, or form. Just pointing out the difference in motivation. When you have two groups and one cares more, which do you think is going to leak through the castle walls? BW obviously cares to a point, but they know that most players despise gold sellers, so that's half the battle already. Dealing with the spam is an inconvenience for us, but given BW's obviously limited resources for this game, putting more time into this particular issue would probably detract from some area of the game itself that can be improved.

[Deewe]

Adding the ability to buy credits directly from the store is not inherently a bad idea. GW2 does it and it hasn't ruined their economy.

 

BUT... GW2 also has at least one dedicated economist on staff, whose job revolves around managing (and occasionally micro-managing) the workings of the economy. Unfortunately, it's kind of one of those "go big or go home" situations. And going big requires money money money.

Not sure the game needs that right now, nor the producer's willing to allow that much of a budget either.

 

I don't have any reason to believe that they aren't trying to stop the gold sellers to the utmost of their abilities. I've had some "come on..." moments, but overall, you have to keep in mind what they're up against. It's sort of like the fight between anti-virus and virus-creation/proliferation. The only way to end the battle outright, in this case, is to restrict things to such a degree that it probably disrupts/hurts legit players in the process. Plenty of bright and experienced game devs have tried to figure out how to stop the gold selling problem completely, with mixed levels of success.

I tend to disagree here. From what we've see, on client side, it doesn't look like they are doing that much.

 

For example we are still missing a report function that automatically ignore the spammer and eventually spans account wide. And that's just scratching the surface of the needed mitigation.

[Rolodome]

Not sure the game needs that right now, nor the producer's willing to allow that much of a budget either.

 

 

I tend to disagree here. From what we've see, on client side, it doesn't look like they are doing that much.

 

For example we are still missing a report function that automatically ignore the spammer and eventually spans account wide. And that's just scratching the surface of the needed mitigation.

I think your first sentence hits on what my points was though. Even something as seemingly simple as improving the reporting feature takes time and resources (aka: money).

 

When I talked about them doing their utmost, I was mostly referring to the dealing with reports. They seem to handle that part pretty well. The in-built features for handling it on our end are lackluster; I agree with that. But is it enough of a priority compared to improving gameplay? Is the question.

[Icykill_]

So we need another topic

 

Why not, seems like the only way Bio do anything is if there are 50 threads of the same rage on the forums.

 

 

The credit spam is out of control. 5 spam messages from 5 different spammers in 40secs. Gen chat is so flooded with them, that conversations have broke down or aren't even happening. They've even started to spam the pvp channel.

[Icykill_]

For example we are still missing a report function that automatically ignore the spammer and eventually spans account wide. And that's just scratching the surface of the needed mitigation.

 

It should also put them on automatic ignore.

[MayhemofChaonus]

Skyforge has been selling credits since launch. Oh sure it hasn't stopped the sellers, but there are significantly less of them in there than in here

[MackPol]

Or you can just let them spam their thing every now and again. Dont read it and move on.

Not like anything else going on in the chat

[SFDebris]

Or you can just let them spam their thing every now and again. Dont read it and move on.

Not like anything else going on in the chat

 

How will I learn about the latest Jawa movies then?

[Thoronmir]

Or you can just let them spam their thing every now and again. Dont read it and move on.

Not like anything else going on in the chat

Yeah, we studied this in my college Philosophy course:

 

If a gold-seller spams in General and no one is there to see it, does he still offer ridiculously large quantities of credits for insanely low prices?

 

Or maybe it was forests and trees falling? Who can remember college?