You've created an antisocial community

[NakodaTheJedi]

By adding xp bonuses to guilds and making heroics and flashpoints soloable you have created an antisocial community. Why even join a guild which is meant to be social and to make friends to play with people? (The xp bonus in my opinion is stupid its already easy to lvl up without it)

[CaptRogue]

By adding xp bonuses to guilds and making heroics and flashpoints soloable you have created an antisocial community. Why even join a guild which is meant to be social and to make friends to play with people? (The xp bonus in my opinion is stupid its already easy to lvl up without it)

 

How in the world do you consider having an XP boost in a guild, anti-social?? I can understand your points on heroics & FPs but seriously?

 

BTW, the XP boost in guild's has been around since like 2.0....Long time ago. Why are you now just singling it out, when in the past guilds were doing great??

[gabigool]

How in the world do you consider having an XP boost in a guild, anti-social?? I can understand your points on heroics & FPs but seriously?

 

BTW, the XP boost in guild's has been around since like 2.0....Long time ago. Why are you now just singling it out, when in the past guilds were doing great??

 

His point is that people join the first guild that advertises on the starter planet rather than seeking out guilds that may potentially be a good social fit.

 

At least I believe that's his point. I don't know if I agree with that however I can say during DvL, rather than wait for guildmates to log in, that's what I did. I don't see that as the problem though.

 

I do agree with the idea that guilds, grouping and social interaction have been massively devalued by this studio and I think that's an unhealthy long-term approach for an MMO. For a number of reasons, I think it's a terrible idea, and I am not certain the studio even understands the importance of guilds (and the required cadence of group content to sustain them) to their own success.

 

/shrug.

 

The in-game community is horrible compared to the first few years. Obviously that's just my opinion but I can't see much in the way of anything to support an opposing point of view.

 

I don't see the XP boost as the problem though, rather the lack of content that guilds historically coalesced around.

[LyraineAlei]

Flashpoints were soloable even before 4.0, you just had to be a high enough level. And small guilds might not have an FP group ready for FPs all the time.

 

I'm not sure I'd say the community is anti-social. Maybe just not guild-friendly. Genchats get people talking most of the time.

[AllisonLightning]

By adding xp bonuses to guilds and making heroics and flashpoints soloable you have created an antisocial community. Why even join a guild which is meant to be social and to make friends to play with people? (The xp bonus in my opinion is stupid its already easy to lvl up without it)

 

Really, I have more problem with idiots who join us for the group content and rage when it doesn't go to plan. You end up joining a lot of guilds over the XP bonuses and my main guild was one I joined for the bonus, participated and made friends with amazing people. We've gotten some great new recruits- guilds are responsible for their own social atmospheres.

 

Solo flashpoints especially protect people from what I endure running tacticals to get through the story, rage quits and idiots. I get people who rage quit on the last heroic after another group member tells them they're headed the wrong way- you can group on choice but we'd lose players. In any case- solo flashpoints are dull- running one with your guild is much more fun than your best random flashpoint run.

[Chessack]

Genchats get people talking most of the time.

 

I dunno.

 

When I re-joined the game in January, Gen Chat was so spammy I had to tab away from it most of the time, even on higher-level worlds. Now, other than fleet, Gen Chat is so quiet I mostly don't notice the tab is open.

[Aowin]

Folks have been shouting doom and gloom about how "anti-social" MMOs have become since WoW. What you consider "anti-social" BioWare considers casual, streamlined, and accessible.

 

Star Wars Galaxies was by far one of the most community-driven MMORPGs ever made. You could not do anything by yourself. You needed something from every profession (34 to be exact) if you wanted to excel in the game. If you wanted to wear armor and be proficient with weapons, you needed to get buffs from doctors as well as listen or watch entertainers. If you wanted to even have gear at all, you needed a weapon smith and an armor smith.

 

If you wanted to get around on planets without it taking hours (one planet dwarfs all the planets in SWTOR combined), you needed to get a vehicle from an engineer. For additional buffs to make yourself even more proficient, you'd need to find a cook to produce food and drinks. You could even get spice from a smuggler for additional benefits, as well as negatives. All of these steps are merely foundational for just being prepared to go out into the wild and grind experience...

 

This level of community-driven gameplay was also a serious turnoff for many players. MMORPGs since WoW have gone away from this community-driven approach becoming much more linear, easier, and accessible. There is little reason to criticize SWTOR for being more "anti-social" as MMOs have become much more solo-oriented for the past decade. Any minor change BioWare makes in this game hardly changes what has already been happening to the entire genre for the last ten years.

 

If you really wanted a social community where guilds matter, I suggest you look towards a sand box MMO.

[JOrifice]

I have noticed a three tiered system developing in MMO's over the years:

Tier 1: Social. Everyone mostly does their own thing, grouping occasionally, mostly PUGS or shorter term team ups. This usually makes up the Basic Story.

Tier 2: Multi-Player. Small, defined groups, usually pre-made or the kind of PUGs where everyone is expected to know what they are doing. This represents Dungeons, Extended Story(in this Game, your more difficult Heroics), and Basic Endgame.

Tier 3: Massively Multi-Player. This is your Bleeding Edge Endgame, huge Raids, Guild Warfare, etc.

 

Each Tier is only a fraction the size of the one preceding it, but is more likely to stay longer and make a larger cash investment over time. However, each Tier ALSO has much higher expectations than the one before it. Tier 1 content can be quick and easy to produce and a certain level of Bugs are easily tolerated, while Tier 3 needs to be extensive and flawless or the Dev. Team will be drowned in a river of Flame and the content will go ignored as unplayable.

 

Right now, it would seem that they are focusing mostly on expanding Tier 1 and some Tier 2. That would seem to be where the money is on a Free-To-Play game. The Subscription Model would see more Tier 2 and Tier 3 content due to greater player investment and more predictable income streams.

Edited September 8, 2016 by JOrifice

[Deewe]

Folks have been shouting doom and gloom about how "anti-social" MMOs have become since WoW. What you consider "anti-social" BioWare considers casual, streamlined, and accessible.

 

Star Wars Galaxies was by far one of the most community-driven MMORPGs ever made. You could not do anything by yourself. You needed something from every profession (34 to be exact) if you wanted to excel in the game. If you wanted to wear armor and be proficient with weapons, you needed to get buffs from doctors as well as listen or watch entertainers. If you wanted to even have gear at all, you needed a weapon smith and an armor smith.

 

If you wanted to get around on planets without it taking hours (one planet dwarfs all the planets in SWTOR combined), you needed to get a vehicle from an engineer. For additional buffs to make yourself even more proficient, you'd need to find a cook to produce food and drinks. You could even get spice from a smuggler for additional benefits, as well as negatives. All of these steps are merely foundational for just being prepared to go out into the wild and grind experience...

 

This level of community-driven gameplay was also a serious turnoff for many players. MMORPGs since WoW have gone away from this community-driven approach becoming much more linear, easier, and accessible. There is little reason to criticize SWTOR for being more "anti-social" as MMOs have become much more solo-oriented for the past decade. Any minor change BioWare makes in this game hardly changes what has already been happening to the entire genre for the last ten years.

 

If you really wanted a social community where guilds matter, I suggest you look towards a sand box MMO.

IMHO and from my experience most of the turnoff in SWG was the grind and not that you needed others to excel as everyone was unique and needed in a way.

 

Bugs, lies abysmal communication and others issues are another story. Still gameplay wise it's what was the main issue.

[LyraineAlei]

I dunno.

 

When I re-joined the game in January, Gen Chat was so spammy I had to tab away from it most of the time, even on higher-level worlds. Now, other than fleet, Gen Chat is so quiet I mostly don't notice the tab is open.

 

It would be more accurate for me to say that GenChat is pretty active on several planets. Although in January, it is fully plausible that the spam you experienced was because fewer people were talking about stuff and trying out the 4.0 changes instead.

[Nempo]

Guilds rally around 3 things. Raids, PvP, and RP.

 

Small group content will never sustain a guild despite that truly hard group content make ANY raid look like a walk in the park. No, we haven't had that kind of group content in TOR exept for when the rackgoul fps were first released and then nerfed a week later. Ironically due in large part to whining from raiders!

 

Raids are boring to me personally (too damn much standing around waiting) and for the majority of modern gamers (go look at the statistics, YOU my dear reader may not fit this but you are a minority) anything over an hour is too long, and even an hour can become too long for a single uninteruptible time block. People have lives and families and need to get up and move away from the computer. The old raid styles are dead and gone, some games still try but the "wing" method is far more embraced as you can plan half hour-45 min blocks for a wing then do another wing another night. Raids themselves are dying simply because people are sick of waiting on that 'one' person who is always late, or always gets up in the middle of a run, etc. Raiders tend to brign out elitist snobs that demand the best of everything, from the game's community (raiders deserve 224, the rest of the community should be fine with 208) and from even within their own guilds (I need that upgrade, I do more than you).

 

PvP itself breaks down into two paths. Deathmatchers and objective players. This is in ANY game btw with instanced PvP (and non instanced PvP games typically still have objectives). Deathmatch guilds form and die out constantly. This kind of playstyle gets old fast and tends to breed the most toxic of communities and the guilds tend to implode quickly. The objective guilds tend to survive for as long as the PvP is fun. It need not be rewarding, simply fun and enjoyable. The toxicity here tends to come from people sick of yelling at guildmates that get target fixation or deathmatch and not focusing on objectives.

 

RP guilds are made, die, merge, break, fracture, last... they tend to be havens for PvErs that can RP a small bit but otherwise just sorta tag along. RPers themselves tend to not be very demanding, give them tools to look how they want, simple interaction with the world, and they will be off and running. They do, however, bring all kinds of people and playstyles which don't always mesh well.

 

Basically, every time you bring a group of people together you will have drama, and people gravitate then fall apart in an endless loop. This expectation of a dev to create a reason for people to socialize is a fallacy. Don't be a git, actually talk to strangers like normal everyday people...and you will find others even in a solo focused story focused game. I always find people to chat with, in random FPs I constantly chatter if the people aren't sticks in the mud. The only thing that can make a game anti-social is you by not being social in the first place.

[NakodaTheJedi]

How in the world do you consider having an XP boost in a guild, anti-social?? I can understand your points on heroics & FPs but seriously?

 

BTW, the XP boost in guild's has been around since like 2.0....Long time ago. Why are you now just singling it out, when in the past guilds were doing great??

 

because people just join for the bonus and never speak a word THAT is how

[PetFish]

because people just join for the bonus and never speak a word THAT is how

 

Then blame the guild leader for bringing them in. It's not the fault of the game if people want to be antisocial and in this specific example it's the guild itself that has the power to be whatever it wants to be.

 

 

If anyone has created an antisocial community it's... the community. Try taking some personal responsibility instead of the easy route and blaming something else.

 

If you want to be antisocial that's your prerogative and more power to you. If you want to be social that's also your prerogative.

 

It's the players that make the community the way it is, not the game.

Edited September 8, 2016 by PetFish

[Aowin]

IMHO and from my experience most of the turnoff in SWG was the grind and not that you needed others to excel as everyone was unique and needed in a way.

 

Bugs, lies abysmal communication and others issues are another story. Still gameplay wise it's what was the main issue.

 

I disagree for the simple fact that EVERY MMORPG back then was grind-intensive. Even Vanilla WoW was grind-intensive. I never personally minded the grinding, as you'd play with friends anyway to pass the time. The game just was too hardcore, too complex, and too group-driven for most folks. A lot of people don't necessarily have the time or the will to commit all that effort into a game. Some would rather have a more relaxing experience where they can just do things alone. SWG was never that game. I loved it, but I also know why MMORPGs like that don't exist anymore. They don't exactly appeal to the majority, thus they aren't really profitable.

[NakodaTheJedi]

Then blame the guild leader for bringing them in. It's not the fault of the game if people want to be antisocial and in this specific example it's the guild itself that has the power to be whatever it wants to be.

 

 

If anyone has created an antisocial community it's... the community. Try taking some personal responsibility instead of the easy route and blaming something else.

 

If you want to be antisocial that's your prerogative and more power to you. If you want to be social that's also your prerogative.

 

It's the players that make the community the way it is, not the game.

 

You are completely wrong. It is not the Guild leaders fault. You cannot make someone talk over the internet and type or download and use voice chat. You cannot force anyone to do anything over the internet. It is only the Guild leaders fault IF that guild leader allows said person to stay. Often its those people who are antisocial who are the ones in the guild who don't even do diddly to contribute and need to be kicked any ways because why? They're just there for the xp bonus so you need to kick them anyways to make your guild better.

[LyraineAlei]

You are completely wrong. It is not the Guild leaders fault. You cannot make someone talk over the internet and type or download and use voice chat. You cannot force anyone to do anything over the internet. It is only the Guild leaders fault IF that guild leader allows said person to stay. Often its those people who are antisocial who are the ones in the guild who don't even do diddly to contribute and need to be kicked any ways because why? They're just there for the xp bonus so you need to kick them anyways to make your guild better.

 

Pet Fish didn't say "Guild Leader," Pet Fish said "community". Guild Leaders are part of a community, but they are not the whole community. The community is everyone who plays.

[Deewe]

I disagree for the simple fact that EVERY MMORPG back then was grind-intensive. Even Vanilla WoW was grind-intensive. I never personally minded the grinding, as you'd play with friends anyway to pass the time. The game just was too hardcore, too complex, and too group-driven for most folks. A lot of people don't necessarily have the time or the will to commit all that effort into a game. Some would rather have a more relaxing experience where they can just do things alone. SWG was never that game. I loved it, but I also know why MMORPGs like that don't exist anymore. They don't exactly appeal to the majority, thus they aren't really profitable.

SWG, especially the hologrind, what the worst of what was done in regards of grind at the time.

 

Another, often forgotten, issue was the lack of dev made content, i.e. quests.

 

BTW you could play SWG hardcore, like I did (was the first master doc and the first to craft advanced stims and buffs on my server) but I had plenty of friends playing very much casually, who did not enjoy the game less.

 

In fact, as I posted long time ago, SWG best design feature was about choice. The choice to play how you wanted.

[thedogwredeyes]

How in the world do you consider having an XP boost in a guild, anti-social?? I can understand your points on heroics & FPs but seriously?

 

BTW, the XP boost in guild's has been around since like 2.0....Long time ago. Why are you now just singling it out, when in the past guilds were doing great??

 

You have no idea how hard I laughed at that snarky response.

[Halinalle]

How in the world do you consider having an XP boost in a guild, anti-social?? I can understand your points on heroics & FPs but seriously?

 

Many join first guild they find, never play with anyone or talk to anyone. When they hit level 65 they leave.

 

I've even seen a lot of guilds specifically created for this: leveling guilds anyone can join and leave at 65.

[ottomadduxone]

As to the first point that was discussed about people joining the first guild that invites them, I know that there should be an easier way to ask for an invite from the guild you desire. That would help people get in the right guild for them.

[Aowin]

SWG, especially the hologrind, what the worst of what was done in regards of grind at the time.

 

Another, often forgotten, issue was the lack of dev made content, i.e. quests.

 

BTW you could play SWG hardcore, like I did (was the first master doc and the first to craft advanced stims and buffs on my server) but I had plenty of friends playing very much casually, who did not enjoy the game less.

 

In fact, as I posted long time ago, SWG best design feature was about choice. The choice to play how you wanted.

 

The hologrind was the "worst" for the simple reason that it was necessary to unlock Jedi, which was the alpha class in the game. If the grind wasn't terrible, everybody would have unlocked Jedi with ease. That was the whole point.

 

SWG didn't need quests. Not the kind of fetch quests theme park MMOs generally create anyway. What SWG needed was more sand box features to compliment what was already a great game. Those systems were eventually added, but it also came at the cost of a lot of the sand box elements. The NGE reduced the amount professions from 34 to 9 classes, but by its end it added a lot of content that made SWG a very great sand box MMO.

 

By hardcore I meant it wasn't necessarily casual-friendly. There were no tutorials. There wasn't a lot of explanation. It was really up to you to figure out how the game worked, and of course you could always ask other players. MMORPGs just aren't like that anymore. The experience is so streamlined and simple that people have been spoiled by MMOs such as SWTOR.

 

SWG's greatest feature was choice. You could be whatever you wanted in the Star Wars universe. It had far more variety than any MMO then and now. I'd like to see SWTOR learn from SWG in some way, shape, or form, but BioWare never seems to consider sand box MMOs as a viable game for learning.

[lightSaberzFan]

The hologrind was the "worst" for the simple reason that it was necessary to unlock Jedi, which was the alpha class in the game. If the grind wasn't terrible, everybody would have unlocked Jedi with ease. That was the whole point.

 

SWG didn't need quests. Not the kind of fetch quests theme park MMOs generally create anyway. What SWG needed was more sand box features to compliment what was already a great game. Those systems were eventually added, but it also came at the cost of a lot of the sand box elements. The NGE reduced the amount professions from 34 to 9 classes, but by its end it added a lot of content that made SWG a very great sand box MMO.

 

By hardcore I meant it wasn't necessarily casual-friendly. There were no tutorials. There wasn't a lot of explanation. It was really up to you to figure out how the game worked, and of course you could always ask other players. MMORPGs just aren't like that anymore. The experience is so streamlined and simple that people have been spoiled by MMOs such as SWTOR.

 

SWG's greatest feature was choice. You could be whatever you wanted in the Star Wars universe. It had far more variety than any MMO then and now. I'd like to see SWTOR learn from SWG in some way, shape, or form, but BioWare never seems to consider sand box MMOs as a viable game for learning.

 

SWG was never a extremely popular, or successful game. It did have however, a small but dedicated player base. For the most part, it is looked upon with rose colored glasses. Although their housing system was awesome. Enjoyed traveling and seeing player cities.

 

Not to mention, whether people admit it or not to themselves, the "sandbox" MMO game design has never been successful. As much as certain people like to try and look down at the theme park MMO as they like to call them, that is what people generally want.

[Icykill_]

By adding xp bonuses to guilds and making heroics and flashpoints soloable you have created an antisocial community. Why even join a guild which is meant to be social and to make friends to play with people? (The xp bonus in my opinion is stupid its already easy to lvl up without it)

 

They've taken the game down the solo story route. Which is extremely sad for all us long time players. We came for an MMO experience and are now left with a subscriber story game.

 

Lots of the old players have left, some have stayed and we are extremely disallusioned to the point that lots are still leaving.

Bioware don't care about this because they've attracted and captured the story mode players out there. The ones that are SW fans, but aren't into MMOs.

 

It's all because of the movies and a quick grab for cash. Story subs and cartel market combined make more money than MMO subs and F2P MMO alone.

 

What's sad and nonsensical is that Bio could have had both. They've sacrificed the MMO players for the story players, when if they had just catered to both, they would have a larger player base, more subs and more potential players buying stuff from the cartel.

 

It was short sighted thinking. More than likely the brain child of some upper management type who doesn't even game or understand a gamers ethos.

 

I wouldn't even be surprised to learn that this exact argument to grow both story and MMO together was presented to upper management and they said no, lets just concentrate on milking the SW movie hype instead of building a long term strategy to expand the game.

 

This is why the game as it used to be is dying. While it might be strong in other areas, such as subs and story. No one can say that the populations of the game haven't diminished significantly. The pvp community is nearly dead, the pve MMO community is also decreasing. Soon the only people left will be story people. Which is what I guess the strategy is by upper management. It's much easier to focus on making a story game than making a proper MMO experience.

 

Management is milking the Star Wars movie hype for all it is. Once that hype dies, the game will too. People might say that's what happened around movie games. But let's remember that this game was released well before any movies were announced or any movie hype. It was based on the already existing strong SW fan base. But by driving that fan base who was originally attracted to the original game away, they have essentially put a very short life span on a game that could have lasted longer than it will. ie WoW is still going strong after all these years because they listened to their dedicated fans and try to give them what they want.

[Lunafox]

I've been here since before launch, which makes me a long time player, but I guess in terms of sociability, I think I'm a bit of an anomaly. I am not sad or disappointed with the direction the game has taken in allowing soloers the ability to do things and complete stuff. I don't care so much about the MMO aspect. I'm here, cause Star Wars.

 

I don't think xp bonuses or the ability to run things solo has created an antisocial community at all. Those that are sociable and inclined to do things with other people always will. They will group and do things together because that's their nature and its fun for them.

 

And then there are those, like me. I play alone, I enjoy playing alone, I have my reasons for not grouping or wanting to group. I like the freedom to come and go as I need to without the need to explain myself to a bunch of people. If I want to spend 4 hours redecorating my house for the umpteenth time, that's for me, I shouldn't feel pressure from others to 'help' or do things. When I come on here, I want to do my own thing. It's practically the only thing where I can do whatever *I* want. I don't want to feel like I'm being mean or rude or selfish just because I want to spend my gaming time, my way.

 

When others depend on you that freedom vanishes to a degree. The ability to solo things and do activities on my own allows me to enjoy the game too. I will never group and if a game forces me to group or depend on others, then I will leave that game.

 

SWG was a wonderful game in many ways. I liked the crafting and decorating especially, that was top notch. But, I'm not a raider or groupy sort of person, and the one thing I utterly despised about that game was the need to waste time sitting in a cantina pretending to enjoy the entertainment so I could get a buff, that usually needed to be paid for anyway. The sociability factor in that game was hard core and I didn't like it. I probably wouldn't have stayed as long as I did, were it not for the one friend I had in the game, who I'd met in a different game.

 

Bottom line, I like that there are outlets for solo players here, stories are wonderful. The only reason I like other people in the world with me is for gtn purposes. I like being on my own, selfish or not, it's the honest truth.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Lunafox

[ottomadduxone]

As to the first point that was discussed about people joining the first guild that invites them, I know that there should be an easier way to ask for an invite from the guild you desire. That would help people get in the right guild for them.