Nerf Operatives

[VixenRawR]

Biggest things people complain about ops: concealment roll, heals, and cc.

 

Remove immunity from roll. Remove self heals. Remove evasion and shield probe. Make flashbang single target or only last 6 seconds. Give them marauder-like defensive cooldowns. Heck even replace cloaking screen with something like camo. You can even top it off by removing sleep dart. Buff their damage moderately or don't buff (QQ level would be the same either way I bet).

 

They would have strong cooldowns that aren't gimmicky. All those globals used on rolls and heals would be replaced with damage. I bet the QQ would never end. There would be just as much QQ as their currently is. People would complain because ops would actually be able to survive while dealing damage. They wouldn't have the longevity they have now, but they would be much more dangerous.

 

I would be interested to see what the community's reaction would be.

 

Honestly I bet if I sat on the side lines rolling back and fourth so all could see me while laughing constantly so that both teams could hear that would be enough for people to scream for nerfs.

[foxmob]

Biggest things people complain about ops: concealment roll, heals, and cc.

 

Remove immunity from roll. Remove self heals. Remove evasion and shield probe. Make flashbang single target or only last 6 seconds. Give them marauder-like defensive cooldowns. Heck even replace cloaking screen with something like camo. You can even top it off by removing sleep dart. Buff their damage moderately or don't buff (QQ level would be the same either way I bet).

 

They would have strong cooldowns that aren't gimmicky. All those globals used on rolls and heals would be replaced with damage. I bet the QQ would never end. There would be just as much QQ as their currently is. People would complain because ops would actually be able to survive while dealing damage. They wouldn't have the longevity they have now, but they would be much more dangerous.

 

I would be interested to see what the community's reaction would be.

 

well...no. most regs are objective WZs, and ops are the poster child for why WZs are broken in 3.x and 4.x. it's the CC + movement speed + stealth + survivability. theirs is not the only AC that sort of "out class" the current map designs, but theirs are the abilities that do it most egregiously...if that makes any sense.

 

PW makes a mockery of most maps as well (CW, AHG, Pit, Quesh, VS)

Edited September 7, 2016 by foxmob

[snave]

well...no. most regs are objective WZs, and ops are the poster child for why WZs are broken in 3.x and 4.x. it's the CC + movement speed + stealth + survivability. theirs is not the only AC that sort of "out class" the current map designs, but theirs are the abilities that do it most egregiously...if that makes any sense.

 

PW makes a mockery of most maps as well (CW, AHG, Pit, Quesh, VS)

 

I'd argue that Powertech and Sorc "out class" warzones far more so than operatives. By quite a margin tbh.

[Greezt]

I'd argue that Powertech and Sorc "out class" warzones far more so than operatives. By quite a margin tbh.

 

Please explain why PTs?

[snave]

Please explain why PTs?

 

Leap, pull, immunity to physics and speed increase are all strong on all maps.

 

Good damage, good utility, can skank / shank tank and are good defenders. They kinda come unstuck when focused but on paper they bring much to the table.

[Greezt]

Leap, pull, immunity to physics and speed increase are all strong on all maps.

 

Good damage, good utility, can skank / shank tank and are good defenders. They kinda come unstuck when focused but on paper they bring much to the table.

 

Fair enough, although I feel that (apart for tanks) the fact that they die so fast under focus partially negates this.

[foxmob]

Leap, pull, immunity to physics and speed increase are all strong on all maps.

 

Good damage, good utility, can skank / shank tank and are good defenders. They kinda come unstuck when focused but on paper they bring much to the table.

 

PT pull actually makes hazards relevant. roll and holotraverse make them irrelevant (same with RO, mad dash, etc.).

 

anyway, the point I was making about objective WZs was primarily about node capture maps. 1 op can prevent any 1 other player from capping indefinitely and can delay 2 players for an obscenely long time -- that's 2 decent players, not two random trash players. the fact of the matter is the op doesn't need to fight. and he's so highly mobile that he can get to off nodes before caps and get to los while the opponent's white bar drains. it's just a really stupidly frustrating combination that breaks the node capture maps (except for NC b/c progress doesn't reset when interrupted). NC has the only node capture mechanic that isn't easily abused (primarily by stealth -- ops moreso b/c of up time on roll).

[VixenRawR]

Leap, pull, immunity to physics and speed increase are all strong on all maps.

 

Good damage, good utility, can skank / shank tank and are good defenders. They kinda come unstuck when focused but on paper they bring much to the table.

 

As explained in other threads PT's also have the only potential out of any single class to actually stunlock and burst you to the ground. Even though that's hard enough they have thee highest burst in their 2 hardstun window. Anyone else who can use two hard stuns cannot kill someone in time.

 

I agree that their dcd's are mediocre at best, mercs without heals but their utility is pretty godly in comparison. Burst is definitely better than an OP, and easier to use.

[snave]

PT pull actually makes hazards relevant. roll and holotraverse make them irrelevant (same with RO, mad dash, etc.). .

 

That's completely incorrect. Pull is a pretty hard counter to roll on maps like huttball, in fact pull is ridiculously powerful on those maps to the point where a team with 1 pull vs one with 0 will have a large advantage.

 

anyway, the point I was making about objective WZs was primarily about node capture maps. 1 op can prevent any 1 other player from capping indefinitely and can delay 2 players for an obscenely long time -- that's 2 decent players, not two random trash players. the fact of the matter is the op doesn't need to fight. and he's so highly mobile that he can get to off nodes before caps and get to los while the opponent's white bar drains. it's just a really stupidly frustrating combination that breaks the node capture maps (except for NC b/c progress doesn't reset when interrupted). NC has the only node capture mechanic that isn't easily abused (primarily by stealth -- ops moreso b/c of up time on roll).

 

This isn't really true at all. 2 decent players can shut down an operative as soon as breaker is used, which if they're decent should be earlyish.

[Saikochoro]

This isn't really true at all. 2 decent players can shut down an operative as soon as breaker is used, which if they're decent should be earlyish.

 

Didn't you know that ops can damage, stun, heal, and roll all at the same time with no cooldown while they are in stealth? It takes 6 outstanding players to stop a mediocre concealment operative node guard. And according to one guy they have infinite cc escapes too.

 

At least that's how people make it out to be. I've never had a problem luring out and shutting down an operative fairly quickly with a teammate. Either way the "can guard indefinitely" is an irrelevant argument even if it wasn't hyperbole. Any class can hold out long enough with proper calls and responses for help to come. Ops do have some of the best tools for guarding, but in proper team play this really doesn't matter much.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Saikochoro

[foxmob]

At least that's how people make it out to be. I've never had a problem luring out and shutting down an operative fairly quickly with a teammate. Either way the "can guard indefinitely" is an irrelevant argument even if it wasn't hyperbole. Any class can hold out long enough with proper calls and responses for help to come. Ops do have some of the best tools for guarding, but in proper team play this really doesn't matter much.

 

I mean...no. it is not. and they can stall indefinitely so that the opposing team has to send an inordinate number of players over there to kill him.

 

no. 2 decent players cannot simply root out and kill a decent op. 2 decent players of the correct class and spec can. you have to be able to hold them down.

 

you're turning me into the OPs are op guy now. and w/e. but their mobility + CC + self healing + stealth make node cap regs a joke. they're not alone in that regard. but it's the singularly most stupid/frustrating aspect.

Edited September 7, 2016 by foxmob

[Nempo]

In some seriousness. I will say that roll should make them drop the huttball.

[Sappharan]

There have been a few nerf this class and nerf that class threads popping up lately as we get closer to 5.0 release.

 

We've not seen a nerf Operatives thread in a long time and I wanted to make sure that Operatives didn't feel left out.

 

So Bio, please nerf them for no other reason than they are annoying and they're Operatives.

 

Here is a bottle and binky. Operative diapers have been changed several times already so I don't really know what more they want. Oh, and just so my comment is not interpreted as too incendiary, the obligatory

Edited September 8, 2016 by Sappharan

[QuiveringPotato]

I mean...no. it is not. and they can stall indefinitely so that the opposing team has to send an inordinate number of players over there to kill him.

 

no. 2 decent players cannot simply root out and kill a decent op. 2 decent players of the correct class and spec can. you have to be able to hold them down.

 

you're turning me into the OPs are op guy now. and w/e. but their mobility + CC + self healing + stealth make node cap regs a joke. they're not alone in that regard. but it's the singularly most stupid/frustrating aspect.

 

I can shut down most operatives solo on my marauder. :l

[VixenRawR]

I mean...no. it is not. and they can stall indefinitely so that the opposing team has to send an inordinate number of players over there to kill him.

 

no. 2 decent players cannot simply root out and kill a decent op. 2 decent players of the correct class and spec can. you have to be able to hold them down.

 

you're turning me into the OPs are op guy now. and w/e. but their mobility + CC + self healing + stealth make node cap regs a joke. they're not alone in that regard. but it's the singularly most stupid/frustrating aspect.

 

On the correct class off course if a healer and tank roll over to grass or snow to and an operative that is there, then YES it will hold the node off, even if another dps arrives the tank may not have the burst, and the heals is pretty limited in it's damage capabilities though they can still slow, knockback root (Considering we all know its a sorc) and stuff to deter an operative. But yeah a Trinity combo, an operative probably stands the best chance at holding people off. However in most cases and the general role of thumb for taking a node or defending a node (Considering most teams should never have more than 1 tank or healer) is that a dps should be sent. So dps will be contending with the intruder operative. The operative will not be able to last forever against 2 dps at the same skill level. Maybe 45 seconds top. And honestly if it is a merc and pt, I'd lower that to 20-30 seconds. 2 juggs I might up it just because melee and gap closing might be hard a few times. Especially if the op is only trolling. Maras...2 maras will eat an op for lunch. Maras have insane burst. If you consider kolto probes actual heals that can contend with dps its a joke. It will increase overall survivability by a few seconds but its not going to game change anything. They don't have static barrier and can't phasewalk, or speed around a corner and spam 11k dark heals.

 

Ops mobility is great without focus, ops mobility can be locked with stuns and roots. Their CC as I have posted is by far inferior to other classes (They only have 1 hard stun). They just have a strategy with mindtrap and flashbang that other players with no skills or tactics at node guarding will fall to that.

 

A good operative against an inferior skilled player will seem strong and overly so. In battle there are various aoes, dots, and attacks that land your way and you may not catch who did it. Yet an operative is obvious. It is locked in at 4m right next to you slapping and laughing. You will notice. It's like watching only one news channel, you will only see the thing you watch. Pay attention to everything around you and you will find operatives aren't the ones pulling the strings in a warzone. A healer with a marauder is probably one of the most deadliest combos in the game in my opinion. Marauders have insane burst and mobility with predation and can constantly be in your face...add a healer behind it and you will be wishing for help so fast you will be dead before you finish collecting your thoughts.

 

There are no real duels in a warzone as has been stated in previous threads or posts by other people. No one will have all their cooldowns and be ready for a perfect 1 v 1. Gear, cooldowns, and communication in a TEAM based warzone pull away from what you might consider a true one versus one. While I may have one the duel I decided as a precaution to spend time to call out for help in case more enemies arrived and suddenly I was dead and its to late.

 

Equal in skill, no class can 1 v 2 period. A healer and tank vs op may never kill the op but healer and tank should struggle against any player as they are support classes and shouldn't be high in dps. (yes I believe some of the dmg in tanks can be above what it should be) but that's not really the point as usually superior sorc heals and overall balance plays a big role here.

 

To some it up, VS 2 dps of any types an operative will not be able to defend indefinitely.

[VixenRawR]

In some seriousness. I will say that roll should make them drop the huttball.

 

I've actually considered that. To make it more team based make all movement abilities nullified with the huttball but give temporary powers along side the throw huttball to ball carrier. Maybe a temp shield, maybe a leap or a speed directly associated with holding the ball with limitations of course. Make the ball carrier more beefy but disable actual move abilities. Maybe to satisfy needs of class ability allow ops to roll but not move allowing them to get defenses, or instant heals. Sorcs to break roots but not run or whatever. Or just make the temporary powers good enough that you will just have to make that sacrificing while holding the ball. Maybe overall movement speed is increased or lowered and damage reduction in creased. Granted the real balance of this is up for questions but only op roll? That's a pretty ignorant statement. As I remember all of 1.0 force speed and sin tank ball carrying was the thing to do. I loved speed jumping over the fire and popping shroud so no one could stop me. Limiting roll only is just creating more problems not fixing one. It really is a l2p issue as operatives cannot roll to the goalline from picking up the ball and usually requires teamwork on both sides to counter and protect. If an operative is using roll and they will score...it was to late anyways. Besides the PT would have run in with sonic overrides like 5 seconds earlier if they had the ball.

[Saikochoro]

I mean...no. it is not. and they can stall indefinitely so that the opposing team has to send an inordinate number of players over there to kill him.

 

no. 2 decent players cannot simply root out and kill a decent op. 2 decent players of the correct class and spec can. you have to be able to hold them down.

 

you're turning me into the OPs are op guy now. and w/e. but their mobility + CC + self healing + stealth make node cap regs a joke. they're not alone in that regard. but it's the singularly most stupid/frustrating aspect.

 

I respect your opinion on these forums so we will just have to agree to disagree. I do not agree that 2 decent players cannot shut down an operative fairly quickly. But agree to disagree.

 

I honestly wish they would just rework it now. Give them strong off the global cooldown defenses and buff their damage. Reduce healing.

[QuiveringPotato]

I respect your opinion on these forums so we will just have to agree to disagree. I do not agree that 2 decent players cannot shut down an operative fairly quickly. But agree to disagree.

 

I honestly wish they would just rework it now. Give them strong off the global cooldown defenses and buff their damage. Reduce healing.

 

1 decent player of most classes can shut down 99% of DPS operatives. Like, seriously, I can count the number of operatives I'm actually even slightly afraid of on my non-stealth classes.. on one hand (on TEH anyway).

[Icykill_]

1 decent player of most classes can shut down 99% of DPS operatives. Like, seriously, I can count the number of operatives I'm actually even slightly afraid of on my non-stealth classes.. on one hand (on TEH anyway).

 

I started the thread as a joke, but I do have a gripe with operatives (not solo ones or good players, but with troll groups)

It's not the solo Operative that is ever an issue for me. It's the Operative death squad of 2 or more. Not being able to turn to defend yourself or attack is a huge advantage for them.

When I say nerf operatives I am of course being sarcastic. Every class has its strengths and weaknesses which are annoying to certain other classes. But I would have to say Operatives are about the most annoying class in the whole match, even against other operatives.

I don't really think they need a nerf as such. I just think that the attack cone should be smaller. Ie if an operative is behind you, then they should only have a 5% attack arc/cone that they can safely stay in to stay out of your attack or defence. Either that or allow people to be able to turn on the spot to at least defend themselves.

This will of course have no effect on any good operatives in the game because most of them stay in that position anyway. But it would stop the operative troll squads from running around matches to gank troll. Most of those guys can't play a operative solo, so only play in a group of them. They rarely play the objectives because all they are interested in is solo ganking. With the current arc of attack they have, it is relatively easy for bad to mediocre operatives to seem OP if they run in a group.

My only ask is to actually make it a real skill and reduce that non-targetable arc. Then if all 3 can stay with in it and kill you, they deserve the kill.

Of course, most good players can counter these operative troll squads. But occasionally you get caught with all your DCs down because these guys are hiding in a corner just waiting and watching for the opportunity. There is zero skill involved. It's like a bunch of muggers hiding in the dark waiting for a victim who has been shot multiple times and has no bullets left. All they are is scavengers.

 

So keep all operative abilities, they are fine as is, just allow other classes a larger attack arc behind to defend themselves.

 

 

FYI, second thoughts, just nerf operatives anyway... They are annoying

[Greezt]

1 decent player of most classes can shut down 99% of DPS operatives. Like, seriously, I can count the number of operatives I'm actually even slightly afraid of on my non-stealth classes.. on one hand (on TEH anyway).

 

Not sure what you mean with "afraid of". If it's fear of dying, sure. A single op needs to be exceptional to kill most DPS in a reasonable amount of time (and have some lucky crits too), but that doesn't make it any easier to actually shut down an op. It's the only class you need to constantly hold still in order to kill...

[Icykill_]

GSF signature.

 

I love your GSF signature links. I've not played GSF since not long after it launched because of my own bias against them not including joystick support. But I'm so disallusioned with pvp now that I'm thinking of having another go at GSF.

I had a look through your links and they are impressive. Lots and lots of great information.

I think I've got a bit of reading to do before I just jump in and instantly hate it again. Hopefully those guides will help my experience to be more positive.

[VixenRawR]

I started the thread as a joke, but I do have a gripe with operatives (not solo ones or good players, but with troll groups)

It's not the solo Operative that is ever an issue for me. It's the Operative death squad of 2 or more. Not being able to turn to defend yourself or attack is a huge advantage for them.

When I say nerf operatives I am of course being sarcastic. Every class has its strengths and weaknesses which are annoying to certain other classes. But I would have to say Operatives are about the most annoying class in the whole match, even against other operatives.

I don't really think they need a nerf as such. I just think that the attack cone should be smaller. Ie if an operative is behind you, then they should only have a 5% attack arc/cone that they can safely stay in to stay out of your attack or defence. Either that or allow people to be able to turn on the spot to at least defend themselves.

This will of course have no effect on any good operatives in the game because most of them stay in that position anyway. But it would stop the operative troll squads from running around matches to gank troll. Most of those guys can't play a operative solo, so only play in a group of them. They rarely play the objectives because all they are interested in is solo ganking. With the current arc of attack they have, it is relatively easy for bad to mediocre operatives to seem OP if they run in a group.

My only ask is to actually make it a real skill and reduce that non-targetable arc. Then if all 3 can stay with in it and kill you, they deserve the kill.

Of course, most good players can counter these operative troll squads. But occasionally you get caught with all your DCs down because these guys are hiding in a corner just waiting and watching for the opportunity. There is zero skill involved. It's like a bunch of muggers hiding in the dark waiting for a victim who has been shot multiple times and has no bullets left. All they are is scavengers.

 

So keep all operative abilities, they are fine as is, just allow other classes a larger attack arc behind to defend themselves.

 

 

FYI, second thoughts, just nerf operatives anyway... They are annoying

 

Solve all of that if they just allow backstab to be used from a wider angle, Wouldn't even need the turn root as much as it is just intended to allow you to backstab. Backstab imo is the biggest pain to use even compared to maul for whatever reason. It might have to do partial with other posts about powers graying out but backstab can be a major pain for me. Yeah any stealth death squad is a pain, operatives just laugh at you while you die. ^^ Objective guarding is almost next to impossible with multiple stealth unless you are a sorc healer.

[VixenRawR]

I love your GSF signature links. I've not played GSF since not long after it launched because of my own bias against them not including joystick support. But I'm so disallusioned with pvp now that I'm thinking of having another go at GSF.

I had a look through your links and they are impressive. Lots and lots of great information.

I think I've got a bit of reading to do before I just jump in and instantly hate it again. Hopefully those guides will help my experience to be more positive.

 

Jump in and have a gunship one shot you from across the map.

[Icykill_]

Jump in and have a gunship one shot you from across the map.

 

Sounds fun, a gunship it is then lol

[QuiveringPotato]

I started the thread as a joke, but I do have a gripe with operatives (not solo ones or good players, but with troll groups)

It's not the solo Operative that is ever an issue for me. It's the Operative death squad of 2 or more. Not being able to turn to defend yourself or attack is a huge advantage for them.

When I say nerf operatives I am of course being sarcastic. Every class has its strengths and weaknesses which are annoying to certain other classes. But I would have to say Operatives are about the most annoying class in the whole match, even against other operatives.

I don't really think they need a nerf as such. I just think that the attack cone should be smaller. Ie if an operative is behind you, then they should only have a 5% attack arc/cone that they can safely stay in to stay out of your attack or defence. Either that or allow people to be able to turn on the spot to at least defend themselves.

This will of course have no effect on any good operatives in the game because most of them stay in that position anyway. But it would stop the operative troll squads from running around matches to gank troll. Most of those guys can't play a operative solo, so only play in a group of them. They rarely play the objectives because all they are interested in is solo ganking. With the current arc of attack they have, it is relatively easy for bad to mediocre operatives to seem OP if they run in a group.

My only ask is to actually make it a real skill and reduce that non-targetable arc. Then if all 3 can stay with in it and kill you, they deserve the kill.

Of course, most good players can counter these operative troll squads. But occasionally you get caught with all your DCs down because these guys are hiding in a corner just waiting and watching for the opportunity. There is zero skill involved. It's like a bunch of muggers hiding in the dark waiting for a victim who has been shot multiple times and has no bullets left. All they are is scavengers.

 

So keep all operative abilities, they are fine as is, just allow other classes a larger attack arc behind to defend themselves.

 

 

FYI, second thoughts, just nerf operatives anyway... They are annoying

 

The "behind the target" cone is already too small at 90 degrees, lol. Do you know how impossible it would be to have to get within 5 degrees to get a backstab off with latency and such? Maybe in a single player game that'd be possible (if incredibly annoying), but not here.