Please fix Tank stats for 5.0 PvP.

[Loadsamonie]

-Make Defense effective against Yellow damage (Force/Tech)

-Make Shield work against Crits (no more bypassing Shield with autocrits)

 

And it's only a passing thought, but another stat for mitigating Elemental/Internal damage wouldn't be bad either. Resistance or something, or just adding it to the mitigation pool for Armor Rating.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Loadsamonie

[CrownofGold]

I want them to bring back Darkness spec self heals. When Depravating Volts procs, we should be uninterruptible while we use it and it should heal us for X amount like Force Lightning used to do.

 

I think it was called Harnessed Darkness or something? Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

I googled and found how it used to work, I just want this to work now for Depravating Volts. Please, BW, and thank you!

 

"Shock and Wither have a 50/100% chance to grant Harnessed Darkness, which makes the next Force Lightning (Depravating Volts) used uninterruptible and immune to pushback. In addition, each stack increases the damage dealt by your next Force Lightning by 25%. Stacks up to 3 times. At 3 stacks, damage dealt by Force Lightning heals you for 2% of your maximum health."

[Nempo]

-Make Defense effective against Yellow damage (Force/Tech)

-Make Shield work against Crits (no more bypassing Shield with autocrits)

 

And it's only a passing thought, but another stat for mitigating Elemental/Internal damage wouldn't be bad either. Resistance or something, or just adding it to the mitigation pool for Armor Rating.

 

This, so much this. Crits should be able to be shielded, even forced ones. Crits should also be able to be defended, just because you force a crit on your next attack doesn't mean you are guarenteed to HIT.

 

Defense should work on ALL attacks. You shoot lightning? Dodged it. Flinging rocks at me? Dodged that too. Grenade toss? Hah, dodged that too. Yes, it should be a thing. There is not a single attack that should bypass the defense stat. Tanks actually geared to defend against attacks should be a total PITA for the other team if they don't stack accuracy. If you don't have accuracy, or much of it, a tank should be able to laugh as a third of your attacks do nothing or get shielded. They sacrificed offensive power to do just that so make it so.

[foxmob]

This, so much this. Crits should be able to be shielded, even forced ones. Crits should also be able to be defended, just because you force a crit on your next attack doesn't mean you are guarenteed to HIT.

 

Defense should work on ALL attacks. You shoot lightning? Dodged it. Flinging rocks at me? Dodged that too. Grenade toss? Hah, dodged that too. Yes, it should be a thing. There is not a single attack that should bypass the defense stat. Tanks actually geared to defend against attacks should be a total PITA for the other team if they don't stack accuracy. If you don't have accuracy, or much of it, a tank should be able to laugh as a third of your attacks do nothing or get shielded. They sacrificed offensive power to do just that so make it so.

 

you do know that raid bosses hit a lot harder than pvp, right? defense is straight dodge. if you dodge something, it misses you completely. it's very easy to walk around with base defense 30-40%. if you were to straight avoid 30-40% of the enemy's attacks BEFORE popping CDs and procs, you'd literally never die. and that's before the benefits of that "guard" ability comes into play. so no. sorry. that's entirely not viable. as bad as objective WZs are now, they'd grind to a screeching halt if defense worked the way you're asking for here.

 

absorb shield would be broken for the same reason, but less so because you have to stack two stats. you could shield a flat 50% (chance), but the absorb might only be at around 50% or less. so you're not straight up avoiding things at a flat 50% chance.

 

IF you want to make defense and shield/absorb relevant (i.e., more favorable than stacking HP), then the only viable method I'm aware of is to tie the effectiveness of guard to the aforementioned stats.

 

the upshot is that tanks, as they are right now, are extremely effective in pvp. any attempt to make them work in pvp the way they do in pve will necessitate wholesale changes in other areas. but frankly, I don't get what the fuss is all about. have you ever seen a great team (ranked 8s or ranked 4s) who got it done w/o a tank? they are absolutely essential as they are right now.

[Loadsamonie]

you do know that raid bosses hit a lot harder than pvp, right? defense is straight dodge. if you dodge something, it misses you completely. it's very easy to walk around with base defense 30-40%. if you were to straight avoid 30-40% of the enemy's attacks BEFORE popping CDs and procs, you'd literally never die. and that's before the benefits of that "guard" ability comes into play. so no. sorry. that's entirely not viable. as bad as objective WZs are now, they'd grind to a screeching halt if defense worked the way you're asking for here.

 

absorb shield would be broken for the same reason, but less so because you have to stack two stats. you could shield a flat 50% (chance), but the absorb might only be at around 50% or less. so you're not straight up avoiding things at a flat 50% chance.

 

IF you want to make defense and shield/absorb relevant (i.e., more favorable than stacking HP), then the only viable method I'm aware of is to tie the effectiveness of guard to the aforementioned stats.

 

the upshot is that tanks, as they are right now, are extremely effective in pvp. any attempt to make them work in pvp the way they do in pve will necessitate wholesale changes in other areas. but frankly, I don't get what the fuss is all about. have you ever seen a great team (ranked 8s or ranked 4s) who got it done w/o a tank? they are absolutely essential as they are right now.

 

They should be essential because of actual mitigation, not because they are HP meatbags with DPS stats on the side. Shank Tank/DPS Tank is not an intended aspect of play, it's a workaround to a class that is clearly not working as intended in PvP.

 

Tying Guard to the mitigation stats would honestly not be a bad idea either, but the fact remains that Defense is utterly worthless right now, unless it is changed to mitigate MORE than just "white" damage, because you almost never see that kind of damage in PvP. It's 99% Force/Tech or Internal/Elemental, which Defense is literally worthless against.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Loadsamonie

[Saikochoro]

They should be essential because of actual mitigation, not because they are HP meatbags with DPS stats on the side. Shank Tank/DPS Tank is not an intended aspect of play, it's a workaround to a class that is clearly not working as intended in PvP.

 

Tying Guard to the mitigation stats would honestly not be a bad idea either, but the fact remains that Defense is utterly worthless right now, unless it is changed to mitigate MORE than just "white" damage, because you almost never see that kind of damage in PvP. It's 99% Force/Tech or Internal/Elemental, which Defense is literally worthless against.

 

Um a TON of damage in pvp is white damage. Only sorcs and concealment ops are comprised of almost entirely yellow damage. Every other classes had a mix. Some very hard hard hitting attacks are white damage (ambush, vicious throw, maul, rail shot, etc).

 

Concealment = 99% yellow

Lethality = 70% yellow 30% white

Arsenal = 40% yellow 60% white

IO = 30% yellow 70% white

Madness = 100% yellow

Lightning = 100% yellow

Deception = 50% yellow 50% white

Hatred = 70% yellow 30% white

Darkness = 70% yellow 30% white

Marksmanship = 99% white

Virulence = 50% yellow 50% white

Engineering = 70% yellow 30% white

Carnage = 20% yellow 80% white

Annihilation = 60% yellow 40% white

Fury = 50% yellow 50% white

Pyro = 80% yellow 20% white

AP = 70% yellow 30% white

Shield tech = 90% yellow 10% white

Rage = 50% yellow 50% white

Vengeance = 50% yellow 50% white

Immortal = 30% yellow 70% white

 

Now, I'd say all of those are fairly accurate within +/- 10%. Now, based on what I usually see in warzones and in questions on forums, the dps specs you usually find in instanced pvp:

 

Madness = 100% yellow

Concealment = 99% yellow

Marksmanship = 99% white

Carnage = 20% yellow 80% white

Arsenal = 40% yellow 60% white

AP = 70% yellow 30% white

Deception = 50% yellow 50% white

Vengeance = 50% yellow 50% white (though more often than not you see shanks so it's more like 30% yellow and 70% white).

 

There is a LOT of white damage being thrown around in warzones. Although there are a number of damage type cooldowns that protect white or yellow or both they overall are more skewed toward protecting white damage.

 

The only reason that yellow damage might be MUCH more prevalent is because of the popularity of sorcs and operatives, though most sorcs are healers anyway.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Saikochoro

[RACATW]

Carnage = 20% yellow 80% white

Vengeance = 50% yellow 50% white (though more often than not you see shanks so it's more like 30% yellow and 70% white).

There is a LOT of white damage being thrown around in warzones. Although there are a number of damage type cooldowns that protect white or yellow or both they overall are more skewed toward protecting white damage.

 

One thing to keep in mind for carnage - it has gore so your white damage rolls against essentially a 0% DR alongside the fact that VT does have an autocrit every minute. Although you're correct in the percentages, there are really no useful force based attacks aside from DB, smash is almost a waste of time on carnage.

 

As for veng, a proper shank would use a focus because of how useless a shield can be unless he's guarding a healer and with the focus his DOTS (which are in fact the main way he kills anything), are all force based. So generally it is more like 50%~ yellow in my opinion.

Edited September 3, 2016 by RACATW

[Saikochoro]

One thing to keep in mind for carnage - it has gore so your white damage rolls against essentially a 0% DR alongside the fact that VT does have an autocrit every minute. Although you're correct in the percentages, there are really no useful force based attacks aside from DB, smash is almost a waste of time on carnage.

 

As for veng, a proper shank would use a focus because of how useless a shield can be and with the focus his DOTS (which are in fact the main way he kills anything), are all force based. So generally it is more like 50%~ yellow in my opinion.

 

Overall carnage has more white attacks than yellow. The only yellow attack carnage really uses in devastating blast. This hits hard, but there is still more white damage going on from carnage. There is the dot on ravage also, but it is still mainly a white damage sorc.

 

As for shank I was referring to high endurance power/crit immortal jugg.

 

As I said before though, my numbers may be slightly off. It was to give a general idea. The person who said there is no white damage going on and that 99% is yellow was off his rocker. Overall there is a fairly even mix of both unless the warzones are full of concealment ops and sorcs.

[Loadsamonie]

Overall carnage has more white attacks than yellow. The only yellow attack carnage really uses in devastating blast. This hits hard, but there is still more white damage going on from carnage. There is the dot on ravage also, but it is still mainly a white damage sorc.

 

As for shank I was referring to high endurance power/crit immortal jugg.

 

As I said before though, my numbers may be slightly off. It was to give a general idea. The person who said there is no white damage going on and that 99% is yellow was off his rocker. Overall there is a fairly even mix of both unless the warzones are full of concealment ops and sorcs.

 

As I play Republic side, they usually ARE full of Ops and Sorcs. I don't play Imp side.

[Tsetso]

Overall carnage has more white attacks than yellow. The only yellow attack carnage really uses in devastating blast. This hits hard, but there is still more white damage going on from carnage. There is the dot on ravage also, but it is still mainly a white damage sorc.

 

As for shank I was referring to high endurance power/crit immortal jugg.

 

As I said before though, my numbers may be slightly off. It was to give a general idea. The person who said there is no white damage going on and that 99% is yellow was off his rocker. Overall there is a fairly even mix of both unless the warzones are full of concealment ops and sorcs.

 

All of this is of course true but it only matters in group ranked. It's very rare in regs and yolo someone to tunnels the tank so all his defense/shield/absorb are wasted.

[foxmob]

They should be essential because of actual mitigation, not because they are HP meatbags with DPS stats on the side. Shank Tank/DPS Tank is not an intended aspect of play, it's a workaround to a class that is clearly not working as intended in PvP.

 

Tying Guard to the mitigation stats would honestly not be a bad idea either, but the fact remains that Defense is utterly worthless right now, unless it is changed to mitigate MORE than just "white" damage, because you almost never see that kind of damage in PvP. It's 99% Force/Tech or Internal/Elemental, which Defense is literally worthless against.

 

that's not how this game is designed. go play WoW. seriously. that's what you want. the guard mechanic is relatively unique to SWTOR. it's something that makes tanks MUCH MORE RELEVANT TO PVP than they are in most other MMOs. **** of here with your dream of turning tanks into unkillable shmucks who do no dmg and do nothing to prevent the rest of their team from being focused down in 2 gcd. seriously. learn where tanks fit in the meta. stop asking to stand the meta on its head and then pretending that you're asking for one little thing. you're not. the entire pvp scaffold would have to be rewritten to do what you want. L2P.

[Glower]

I would gladly trade half of my tank dps to get these changes in pvp... Edited September 3, 2016 by Glower

[Loadsamonie]

that's not how this game is designed. go play WoW. seriously. that's what you want. the guard mechanic is relatively unique to SWTOR. it's something that makes tanks MUCH MORE RELEVANT TO PVP than they are in most other MMOs. **** of here with your dream of turning tanks into unkillable shmucks who do no dmg and do nothing to prevent the rest of their team from being focused down in 2 gcd. seriously. learn where tanks fit in the meta. stop asking to stand the meta on its head and then pretending that you're asking for one little thing. you're not. the entire pvp scaffold would have to be rewritten to do what you want. L2P.

 

Are you kidding me with this crap? You've completely missed the entire point of what a Tank is all about. A Tank is SUPPOSED to be a virtually unkillable sack of meat. A Tank is SUPPOSED to be able to soak up gobs and gobs and gobs of damage and keep coming back for more, all while stunning, CCing, debuffing and/or just plain harrassing key enemy targets and defending friendly ones. Virtually unkillable does not mean impossible, but they should not melt to a single DPS just because "oh, Lightning is Yellow, no Defense for you" or "oh, Autocrit, no Shield for you".

 

Unless you're doing Ranked and are constantly the victim of tunneling, there's literally no point to even bother with defensive stats (other than raw HP) when going for damage output serves you far better in contributing to team goals without hurting your survival. And that has to change. Tank stats need to actually be worthwhile to have in all PvP situations for Tanks, not just for those rare instances where you're the one getting focused or you're facing a damage type that you can actually cut down against.

[LadyDarkkitten]

Are you kidding me with this crap? You've completely missed the entire point of what a Tank is all about. A Tank is SUPPOSED to be a virtually unkillable sack of meat. A Tank is SUPPOSED to be able to soak up gobs and gobs and gobs of damage and keep coming back for more, all while stunning, CCing, debuffing and/or just plain harrassing key enemy targets and defending friendly ones. Virtually unkillable does not mean impossible, but they should not melt to a single DPS just because "oh, Lightning is Yellow, no Defense for you" or "oh, Autocrit, no Shield for you".

 

Unless you're doing Ranked and are constantly the victim of tunneling, there's literally no point to even bother with defensive stats (other than raw HP) when going for damage output serves you far better in contributing to team goals without hurting your survival. And that has to change. Tank stats need to actually be worthwhile to have in all PvP situations for Tanks, not just for those rare instances where you're the one getting focused or you're facing a damage type that you can actually cut down against.

 

Yet most peoples posts when they discuss the poor situation pvp tanks are in goes two ways:

1) tanks are OP!! nerf there damage!! it shouldn't be possible that tanks can do nearly as much damage as a dps spec if the tank plays well and the dpser doesn't know how to play! nerf him so he can't kill me any more!!!!1 make it so he can't play!

 

2) its silly that tank stats are meaningless. Lets hook them upto guard! lets make it so guard only works and tanks can only protect people if they are loaded up with an otherwise useless stat that means non of their abilties will ever hit more then 4k in a wz and they can have "fun" trying to defend themselves against that lone stealther with 900 damage force screams and 1.1k retailiates.

 

As a pvp tank I agree the current situation isn't particularly good, but making my class unplayable and a waste of a spot in a wz won't improve the situation. I recall being a hunter in wow during the cataclysm expac trying to pvp. The class was so borken and so useless I would be /spat on by my own team mates. LITERALLY the best thing I could do for the team was to leave the BG as ANYTHING at all regardless of how badly geared it was, would be of more benefit to the team. Games used to be decided by which team had the least amount of huntards on them dragging the rest down. I don't want to repeat that horrible experience in swtor thanks.

[Romansonesix]

I see this request all the time and I'll admit I was once one of those that wanted more mitigation.

 

I was wrong.

 

Tanking is first and foremost about protection. Slows, roots, stuns, taunts, (I wish all three had a type of intercede), these are your main tools. Gaining aggro, which is easy in a raid, is much more complex in a pvp environment. Should you get defense and shield to work as you suggest, you'd lose upwards of 99% of the focus. You must get in there, interrupt their plans, piss them off, and grab their attention.

 

Also; a couple terms we've been using for years and years are being misused. Skank meant a tank spec in dps gear, specifically darkness. Shank was given to guard/jugg back when we were making hybrids , usually 6/36/2. It means vigi spec and high endo, and yes, a shield too. Maybe a tank ear peace and def relic.

 

This is the way it's always been. There is a logic to it. The tank starts aren't useless but maybe not as desirable as endo and power to some.

 

Foxmob is absolutely correct; if you make the proposed changes, the meta would drastically change. Personally I think more classes not dying would only decrease what fun is left.

[Tsetso]

I see this request all the time and I'll admit I was once one of those that wanted more mitigation.

 

I was wrong.

 

Tanking is first and foremost about protection. Slows, roots, stuns, taunts, (I wish all three had a type of intercede), these are your main tools. Gaining aggro, which is easy in a raid, is much more complex in a pvp environment. Should you get defense and shield to work as you suggest, you'd lose upwards of 99% of the focus. You must get in there, interrupt their plans, piss them off, and grab their attention.

 

Also; a couple terms we've been using for years and years are being misused. Skank meant a tank spec in dps gear, specifically darkness. Shank was given to guard/jugg back when we were making hybrids , usually 6/36/2. It means vigi spec and high endo, and yes, a shield too. Maybe a tank ear peace and def relic.

 

This is the way it's always been. There is a logic to it. The tank starts aren't useless but maybe not as desirable as endo and power to some.

 

Foxmob is absolutely correct; if you make the proposed changes, the meta would drastically change. Personally I think more classes not dying would only decrease what fun is left.

 

Actually it's quite simple - just summon your party java and all the agro is on you

[Romansonesix]

Actually it's quite simple - just summon your party java and all the agro is on you

 

Touche. XD

[DsevenO]

The point that seems to be missed is that tank stats are only viable a percentage of the time, while dps/healing stats are viable 100% of the time. If tank stats are going to continue being only partially useful, then just remove them from the pvp gear itemization right off the bat. That way we at least don't have to go through the laborious task of removing every piece of defense/shield/absorb from our gear to replace it with endurance/power gear (which is useful 100% of the time).

[foxmob]

Concealment = 99% yellow

Lethality = 70% yellow 30% white

Arsenal = 40% yellow 60% white

IO = 30% yellow 70% white

Madness = 100% yellow

Lightning = 100% yellow

Deception = 50% yellow 50% white

Hatred = 70% yellow 30% white

Darkness = 70% yellow 30% white

Marksmanship = 99% white

Virulence = 50% yellow 50% white

Engineering = 70% yellow 30% white

Carnage = 20% yellow 80% white

Annihilation = 60% yellow 40% white

Fury = 50% yellow 50% white

Pyro = 80% yellow 20% white

AP = 70% yellow 30% white

Shield tech = 90% yellow 10% white

Rage = 50% yellow 50% white

Vengeance = 50% yellow 50% white

Immortal = 30% yellow 70% white

nothing to do with the tank question, but this list made me cry a bit on the inside b/c I thought of all the dots that arsenal chaff flares don't absorb (the big one being those madness dots which hit crazy hard).

[Saikochoro]

nothing to do with the tank question, but this list made me cry a bit on the inside b/c I thought of all the dots that arsenal chaff flares don't absorb (the big one being those madness dots which hit crazy hard).

 

Yeah that is pretty sad. Madness dots do hit pretty dang hard.

[Greezt]

I wonder, where did the percentages come from?

[Saikochoro]

I wonder, where did the percentages come from?

 

My experience playing each spec and knowledge of their attacks and procs. I've played each spec quite extensively, but they may be off a bit. I'm sure they are witching +/- 10%.

[Greezt]

My experience playing each spec and knowledge of their attacks and procs. I've played each spec quite extensively, but they may be off a bit. I'm sure they are witching +/- 10%.

 

Commenting about sins only - in my experience, deception is actually more yellow than white. Hatred is about 50/50, although this changes a lot if kiting.

[foxmob]

Commenting about sins only - in my experience, deception is actually more yellow than white. Hatred is about 50/50, although this changes a lot if kiting.

 

they're both heavy yellow (at least 50%). my proof? flares works wonders against them. I can roll dcds. lol

[Greezt]

they're both heavy yellow (at least 50%). my proof? flares works wonders against them. I can roll dcds. lol

 

Let me tell you, nothing is quite as amusing as seeing a flare waste on your technique proc...