Why I'm glad KOTFE dedicated time to the antagonist's perspective.

[Rolodome]

I actually agree with much of your critiques. Obviously, if you are going to showcase anything, it needs to have a point and somehow drive the narrative forward. My point is, many were claiming they didn't even want the antagonist's perspective AT ALL.

 

I disagree with this premise that a "computer game" is somehow different than film or television, especially with BioWare games. As far back as KOTOR, BioWare's Doctors had been linking the similarities of their storytelling to television and film. Story is the same regardless of the medium. The same rules apply. Unless we have a story in which the protagonist should be ignorant of the antagonist's devices, there is no reason not to develop the antagonist.

 

This is obviously a Star Wars game and I believe it's smart of BioWare to take a storytelling approach similar to the films. Everybody here obviously (I'd hope) likes Star Wars. If BioWare executes those storytelling moments well, I don't believe anybody would criticize the story.

 

I'm certainly not suggesting everything BioWare did with Arcann and Vaylin was perfect, but I'm happy they were featured nonetheless. Truth be told, I think less of the issue had to do with Arcann and Vaylin being shown and more of the problem was terrible pacing between Chapter X to Chapter XVI.

 

Not much of anything really happened for most of those chapters. Yet, BioWare still wanted to give the antagonist's perspective of what the other side was up to. Hopefully we'll just have less filler in the future. But, cutting down on how often we see the villains isn't necessarily the right approach.

 

As someone else already indicated, Darth Malak was used incredibly well, and I'd say we saw him quite often when it came to moving the plot (typically after completing the content of a planet). BioWare just needs to improve the pacing of the story and I think many of the other errors will resolve themselves.

 

I just don't want another situation where we only see our perspective and never get to know the villain. This is not a tabletop RPG. There is no game master and I'm not in a dungeon with other players. This is Star Wars and as such I want to be immersed in that Star Wars experience the way a Star Wars story is told. Not to mention, BioWare has a long, established history of showing the villain's perspective in most of its games (of which are all role playing games).

 

BioWare games have always been about story first and role playing second. This is not Bethesda Game Studios where role playing is all that matters and the story that is presented is too weak, or poorly written, that no one cares for it. Why would BioWare not continue this tradition?

 

I was honestly surprised the class stories lacked that antagonist perspective, which was one of the main reasons I felt none of the class stories rivaled any of BioWare's previous games. You can only have a great hero if you have a great villain. It's hard to have a great villain if you never actually see him/her to understand why he/she thinks the way he/she does.

I think that's fair.

 

On the point of the class stories, I think there were quite a few antagonists whose POV was featured in one way or another.

 

Going through them all, with the villains I remember:

 

 

SW:

Nomen Karr - By the end, you have a pretty clear idea that he thought he had some kind of god complex, even as he went against the tenets of his own order.

Baras - We see him up close pretty well on Dromund Kaas. His whole thing seems to be typical sith power grab, but he knew he couldn't do it like you, through a warrior's skill, so he used tricks to siphon power from others and eliminate his enemies in secret.

 

JK:

Bengel Morr is roughly explained by the end of the starter planet.

What's-His-Face-Emotionally-Unstable-Sith-Lord - Not all that well developed as a villain. Main motivation seems to be pettiness, followed by tunnel vision upon losing his son.

 

SI:

Skotia - eh...

Thanaton - eh...

 

JC:

Don't even remember the villains well. Something to do with CotE.

 

BH:

Tarro blood - well developed.

 

Trooper:

Tavus - well developed.

 

IA:

Jadus - decently developed?

Something something spying, not much stands out here in villain development

Oh yeah! ... that one dude, at the end, whose motivations I don't remember.

 

Smuggler:

Skavik - narcissist/psychopath. Not much to develop beyond that. Scumbag from start to finish.

What's-his-face and what's-her-face - nicely crafted, maybe not developed all that strongly in terms of motivations though.

 

 

Looking back on it, it seems the Chapter 1 villains were typically the best established in the stories. Which is interesting because the game was rushed/pushed to launch long before it was ready, so that may be why the further you get into it, the more likely it is that the villain seems kind of bland and forgettable. They may have had to hack together villains for some of the later parts, neglecting character development to get it finished.

[DarthSpuds]

Considering there are plenty of posters who obviously hold that belief in this thread and are disagreeing with the OP,

 

So obviously in fact that you singularly failed to present any evidence of it at all.

 

Surely if it were so obvious you could present just one quote where someone demands that all cutscenes are exclusively about the player character.

 

All The Best

[Aowin]

So obviously in fact that you singularly failed to present any evidence of it at all.

 

Surely if it were so obvious you could present just one quote where someone demands that all cutscenes are exclusively about the player character.

 

All The Best

 

I am not going to hunt down every instance of someone making this exact claim just to appease you. Either do it yourself or don't believe me. I don't really care. The fact there are already posters in here who already made this claim and you didn't even bother to read the OP or the thread shows how silly you look and how pointless this discussion with you is.

[Aowin]

...

 

You highlight my exact problem with virtually ever villain in the class stories. You don't even know half of their names! There is something wrong with that, and it's not your fault. It's BioWare's fault for failing to make these characters matter. They weren't memorable. That is a failure, in my opinion, from a storytelling perspective. If the villain was that insignificant to the plot, then what was the point of anything we did?

 

As I said, had these antagonists been featured in their own cutscenes developing those characters, I think it's very likely these stories would have benefited greatly. Obviously, characters like Baras and Zash couldn't be featured immediately as villains because the plot twist of the betrayal (which was pretty obvious anyways) could not be undermined by spoiling the villain's motivations too soon.

 

What BioWare could have done is used the villains in Chapter 1 of those particular classes and shown that somebody was pulling the strings of these villains. This is more or less how we are introduced to the Emperor in the original trilogy when we find out Vader does the Emperor's bidding. BioWare could have had these temporary villains working for the actual villain and given us some insight into that without spoiling the villain.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Aowin

[Damask_Rose]

I haven't played any other Bioware stories, so I can't compare the class stories or KotFE to any of them. What I can say though, is that at this time I find most of the villains from the class stories and earlier expansions far more compelling than Arcann and Vaylin. The antagonists' perspective has only diminished them. If they had an air of mystery and menace they could rock as villains. Instead they are repeatedly shown as petty little children better suited to a WB teen drama than a Star Wars story. The less shown of them the better. A short clip or two would have been OK, but the writers went waaaaay overboard. When a narrative devise detracts from a story, rather than adds to it, it should be scrapped.

[Aowin]

...

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree. As Rolodome indicated, he/she can't even name half of the antagonists from the class stories. I doubt you, or anyone else, can either. I'm not saying the class stories were bad. I just think they could have been far more compelling and interesting had we actually gotten to know the villains. Not even being able to name half of them shows what little effort BioWare put into making these characters memorable. The villain should ALWAYS be memorable. Oftentimes, it's the villain who makes the story as great as it is.

 

I don't mind the villains being shrouded in mystery to an extent, but not to the point we just don't know them at all. If we are dealing with an unknown threat, then that story is catering to that kind of experience. Otherwise, we should know enough about the villain and his/her motivations in order to be that much more engaged with what is happening. Again, your issue isn't with the antagonist's perspective but rather how these characters are being presented and how BioWare is telling the story. The villain isn't the problem. It's how BioWare is presenting the villain and what they are doing with him/her that is the issue.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Aowin

[Ralei]

I haven't played any other Bioware stories, so I can't compare the class stories or KotFE to any of them. What I can say though, is that at this time I find most of the villains from the class stories and earlier expansions far more compelling than Arcann and Vaylin. The antagonists' perspective has only diminished them. If they had an air of mystery and menace they could rock as villains. Instead they are repeatedly shown as petty little children better suited to a WB teen drama than a Star Wars story. The less shown of them the better. A short clip or two would have been OK, but the writers went waaaaay overboard. When a narrative devise detracts from a story, rather than adds to it, it should be scrapped.

 

100% agree.

[Damask_Rose]

,,,.

 

I had a massive response typed out, but I think I'll just sum it up in saying that I think Arcann and Vaylin are two of the most boring villains in SWtOR and the use of "the antagonist's perspective" did nothing to ameliorate that. If a tool doesn't do the job, you use a different tool.

[Aowin]

I had a massive response typed out, but I think I'll just sum it up in saying that I think Arcann and Vaylin are two of the most boring villains in SWtOR and the use of "the antagonist's perspective" did nothing to ameliorate that. If a tool doesn't do the job, you use a different tool.

 

Then wouldn't the proper response be to make them better villains rather than discard their relevance entirely? As I said, there can only be a great hero's journey if there is a great villain to challenge him/her. Outright stripping the villain's perspective may seem to be an appropriate response, but inevitably covers up the follies of the story, itself. I'd much rather BioWare develop these characters far more to make them the antagonists we desire so that when they are shown in cutscenes it matters and we enjoy it. Cutting features or content is almost always never a good idea in my opinion.

[Nempo]

Much like Kylo Ren, Vaylin is just the distilled responses and personality all the flamers and trolls constantly show on the forums. So if she is such a bratty child, perhaps some introspection is needed on your own parts as well?

 

Here is a hint, Vaylin is only NOW finally able to flex her muscles. Her mother AND father (aka Vitiate) have been holding her back. Vitiate was actually dampening her connection to the force on purpose to control her. What happens when you give anyone a sudden surge of power? Pretty much the inevitable lashing out.

 

As for Arcann, he has shown us, through the glimpses we are given, regrets over Thexan and wishing he could travel down Thexan's path (honor/integrity). They are subdtle yet there, and masterfully so, especially given how few people actually notice it. Everyone only remembers his outburts, or the way he says things rather than WHAT he is saying and the inflections used on those words.

 

You cannot have a great hero without a great villian. Of the class stories, only the JK has a great villian (the Emperor himself) and it is a villian that gets talked about in 4 class stories! In doing the other force using class stories you get to know even more about what the emperor has been up to and doing...you can extrapolate on motivations but you get more information. Hell, want to know why Act 1 of the consular was so bad? Even after Alderaan you STILL have no real feeling for the villian other than "he was left behind". By alderaan your first act villian should be a pressence you feel, know, and understand...yet it is mostly just a hand wave ordeal for the class stories. The villians are forgettable and ignorable because we don't actually have enough information for someone we are actively hunting.

As far as storytelling, without a well rounded and understood villian, the story falls flat on it's face.

[Lunafox]

Here is a hint, Vaylin is only NOW finally able to flex her muscles. Her mother AND father (aka Vitiate) have been holding her back. Vitiate was actually dampening her connection to the force on purpose to control her. What happens when you give anyone a sudden surge of power? Pretty much the inevitable lashing out.

 

 

I don't expect to see much of interest out of Vaylin, simply because she hasn't shown any sort of aptitude in planning or scheming against their enemies. There has been no indication of intelligence, just raw Force power. Mostly, she throws tantrums, panders to her brother and spends her time killing guards to make even numbers--or cursing out her mother.

 

Now, if they had shown Vaylin sneaking down to her own private dark lair (secret from Arcann), where she has had a team of Selkath and Zakuulian physicians working on raising Darth Marr from the dead and making clones of him to imbue with her amplified Force powers to make her own private guard to surpass all others...or even to make Marr her puppet to infiltrate the Alliance and kill us in our sleep, I'd say the girl's got some smarts going on.

 

But as it stands, she's an over charged battery with no intelligence of her own...I suspect that's where Scorpio will come in...the tin psycho will teach her all her evil tricks...and then once Vaylin is confident that she has exceeded her 'master' she'll crush Scorpio like the rustbucket she is...I bet Bioware won't even give us the pleasure of ending that miserable robot ourselves. Then we'll have to deal with Vaylin...at which point Mom and Bro, now enlightened with by the power of family will swoop in and save her, to redeem her too.

 

I truly hope it won't go that way...my blood thirsty self needs to seriously kill some of these people off.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Lunafox

[AshlaBoga]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. As Rolodome indicated, he/she can't even name half of the antagonists from the class stories. I doubt you, or anyone else, can either. I'm not saying the class stories were bad. I just think they could have been far more compelling and interesting had we actually gotten to know the villains. Not even being able to name half of them shows what little effort BioWare put into making these characters memorable. The villain should ALWAYS be memorable. Oftentimes, it's the villain who makes the story as great as it is.

 

I don't mind the villains being shrouded in mystery to an extent, but not to the point we just don't know them at all. If we are dealing with an unknown threat, then that story is catering to that kind of experience. Otherwise, we should know enough about the villain and his/her motivations in order to be that much more engaged with what is happening. Again, your issue isn't with the antagonist's perspective but rather how these characters are being presented and how BioWare is telling the story. The villain isn't the problem. It's how BioWare is presenting the villain and what they are doing with him/her that is the issue.

 

Thanaton is a good example of lackluster villains.

 

At least I HATED Tarro Blood. Was he impressive? No, he was pathetic, but Tarro being weak made me hate him more. Baras at least was almost as dangerous as he believed himself to be.

 

Thanaton was a strong Sith, but his lack of clear antagonism made him fall flat.

 

He is trying to kill me because I'm Zash's apprentice? His own master fell from grace (strange term for a Sith) and he nearly ended up the Dark Council's slave.

 

He's trying to kill me because I was a slave and it goes against tradition? He ran from the Kaggath on Corellia which is a clear violation of tradition.

 

He's either a hypocrite protecting his power base or written with contradictions in his motivation.

[Eshvara]

I don't expect to see much of interest out of Vaylin, simply because she hasn't shown any sort of aptitude in planning or scheming against their enemies. There has been no indication of intelligence, just raw Force power. Mostly, she throws tantrums, panders to her brother and spends her time killing guards to make even numbers--or cursing out her mother.

 

Now, if they had shown Vaylin sneaking down to her own private dark lair (secret from Arcann), where she has had a team of Selkath and Zakuulian physicians working on raising Darth Marr from the dead and making clones of him to imbue with her amplified Force powers to make her own private guard to surpass all others...or even to make Marr her puppet to infiltrate the Alliance and kill us in our sleep, I'd say the girl's got some smarts going on.

 

But as it stands, she's an over charged battery with no intelligence of her own...I suspect that's where Scorpio will come in...the tin psycho will teach her all her evil tricks...and then once Vaylin is confident that she has exceeded her 'master' she'll crush Scorpio like the rustbucket she is...I bet Bioware won't even give us the pleasure of ending that miserable robot ourselves. Then we'll have to deal with Vaylin...at which point Mom and Bro, now enlightened with by the power of family will swoop in and save her, to redeem her too.

 

I truly hope it won't go that way...my blood thirsty self needs to seriously kill some of these people off.

 

Basically all of this except that I don't think Vaylin will be saved. She doesn't really have any depth to her. I suppose that could change in kotet but I still doubt it. In the end I'm fairly sure Vaylin will die. I really don't see any point of keeping her alive.

[lilathrone]

I don't know who played Dragon Age: Inquisition here, but the problem there was that the antagonist got very little screen time so in the end I didn't really feel anything when I defeated him. Beat a generic villain, whooo.

 

So I'm glad that in KOTFE we know who my enemies are, even if they are a little one dimensional. For Arcann, Vaylin it's almost always just a little boohoo, the ugly outlander did something we don't like so we must kill him.. So yeah, this could have been better. Valky is awesome though. In KOTET I'm far more interested in how his plot develops, than

 

Vaylin's or Scorpio's

 

[TheShang]

I agree with this. With what I've played of the class stories so far, I think only the SW's story really pulls it off in a similar way with Darth Baras.

 

It's the way you get insight in what the antagonist think is what makes him convincing as an antagonist. I kinda wish they gave us more insight into what's going on with Vaylin instead of her being crazy-powerful, murderous b*tch (which is basically every generic Sith Lord antagonist ever, and she's not even a Sith Lord!).

 

It was good to see Arcann break down from being a calm, calculating villain to just seeking attention from his father, showing that all that he wanted was approval, even if he said and acted otherwise. If you hadn't seen the cutscenes from his perspective, everyone would cry out about Arcann's sudden personality changes.

[Rheshalea]

I'm someone who, after the first corridor-run through KotFE, has space-bared through all the cutscenes with Arcann and Vaylin.

That doesn't mean I don't want to know them. But I want my characters to experience them, not see them bicker. I want to see the results of their evilnessness, not just hear them talk about how evil they are.

 

And yes, I want the MMORPG that has lost most of the MMO-part to at least still be an RPG where my characters and their experiences are the number one priority.

In Chapter 1 in the original SWTOR story, my bounty hunter gets to experience Tarro Blood. The BH sees the results of Tarro's actions all throughout that storyline, and has a solid antagonist to hunt down, without the need for repetitive cutscenes. The BH knows quite enough about this villain and his motivations to loathe him for all the right reasons.

The same goes for the Smuggler. The Smuggler gets to meet Skavak at the very start of the story and interacts with him through holo-calls every now and then, while chasing him down. Again, without the need for cutscenes that show what Skavak is doing at that moment.

The Trooper story in Chapter 1 is much the same. The young Trooper is so proud to become Havoc squad, only to have his/her dreams crushed when Tavus and the others turn out to be the villains. Yes. The members of Havoc squad are featured in cutscenes, but only when the Trooper is there to interact with them.

And so on for the other class stories. Cutscenes with the villains are fine as long as the player character conceivable can experience it, either by being there or eavesdropping or spying.

 

Now, I may remember it wrong. Maybe there are cutscenes without the player character present in the original class stories as well, but if so, they are few and far between, and well-made to the point of not being annoying. Or maybe they just add to the story in a way that the Arcann/Vaylin cutscenes do not.

 

As for the comparison between an RPG video game and TV-series/movie/novel, like it or not, there IS a difference. However, all these media that tell a story have some rules in common. One of the most profound rules is that every scene should in some way move the plot forward, be it the main plotline or a sideplot. As someone said earlier in the thread, the Arcann/Vaylin scenes don't, not after about Chapter II. At least they don't feel like it--someone else earlier in this thread said A+V did change subtly throughout, but if that was the point, evidently it was lost on not only on me but plenty of other players too.

And there's the difference between A+V and Darth Vader. Every time we see Vader in the original movie trilogy, he does something that affects the protagonists. Something that explains to the viewer what is going on. But in KOTFE, we already know... and either way, we don't get to pretend we control Luke, Han or Leia and their actions when we watch the movie. We're not nearly as much in their heads as we hopefully are in the heads of our characters while we play an RPG, be it table-top or video game.

[Damask_Rose]

Then wouldn't the proper response be to make them better villains rather than discard their relevance entirely? As I said, there can only be a great hero's journey if there is a great villain to challenge him/her. Outright stripping the villain's perspective may seem to be an appropriate response, but inevitably covers up the follies of the story, itself. I'd much rather BioWare develop these characters far more to make them the antagonists we desire so that when they are shown in cutscenes it matters and we enjoy it. Cutting features or content is almost always never a good idea in my opinion.

 

Using a different narrative technique does not remove relevance. Having a great villain and using the antagonist's perspective are not inexorably linked. You can have one without the other. There are multiple ways to develop character, not just one. Some of the greatest antagonists in history have never been shown from their perspective.

 

KotFE's use of Arcann & Vaylin's perspective failed to advance the plot or develop their characters in any meaningful way (and they were given a lot of time to do so!). The story would have been better served if their characters were illuminated by interacting with the protagonist and through their actions. Arcann & Vaylin don't need more screen time, they need to have better use made of the screen time they have. More of the same yields more of the same.

 

I'm not asking for anything to be removed. What's done is done. What I am asking for is for Bioware to up their storytelling game for KotET.

[CloudCastle]

I was one of the players who made a thread criticizing BW for making KOTFE like a TV show with cutscenes that didn't have the player character in it.

 

Please, BW I want SWTOR to be a game not a TV show

 

I notice that some here keep comparing KOTFE to past BW games. Do other BW games really show so many scenes without the player's character in them? I came to SWTOR from the world of MMO's and that is what is most familiar to me. The story in SWTOR is what captured me, however, and is a good part of what keeps me here. But KOTFE is a departure from the way previous stories were handled in this game, and when I enter KOTFE, I can't help but notice this change immediately. It's foreign to me and feels forced. Up until now, our characters have always been the center of the story and the center "perspective" that is shown. As soon as a scene shows up without my character in it, I start thinking, "My character couldn't possible know this, so this must be information for me, the player," and that throws me out of my character's head and reminds me that I, the player, and watching a scene, not participating in it.

 

This cut scene issue is just one of the symptoms of a greater problem in KOTFE, and that is that player agency is lacking.

 

In a book, movie or TV show, it is perfectly acceptable to present perspectives other than the protagonist's. (I do find omniscient narrator the hardest to relate to though.) SWTOR is not a book, or a movie or a TV show, however, it is a game and that's where my problem lies. I think the story is more powerfully told by making the player's character the center of the action, if not at ALL times, then pretty close to it. This keeps players engaged in their character, and for me, makes the story seem more immediate and more compelling.

 

We can learn plenty about the villain without frequent scenes showing them plotting in their lair. For example, some of the more powerful scenes for me in the 1-50 class stories don't have the main villain present at all:

 

Sith warrior:

 

 

When Baras arranges for the cave-in on Quesh, that felt like a pivotal moment for my character. Up until then, I had been the dutiful apprentice, and Baras's betrayal hit hard. The fact that he sent some minion I had never even met to goad me over holocall just made it even more insulting. I had outgrown my usefulness and now was being "cleaned-up" by some lackey. This tells you about Baras and his methods more than any cut scene with him railing on about you ever could.

 

 

Imperial agent:

 

 

The moment when I first tried to buck against my programming was a jaw-dropping one. When I tried to yell, "I am being brain-washed!" but all that came out was "everything's fine" I knew I was in deep. The villain didn't need to be present, the results of their handiwork were all that mattered. I was utterly alone and trapped inside my head and that was terrifying.

 

 

Both of these scenes are completely player-focused. The villain is frightening not because of who he/she IS but because of the harm they are capable of doing the player character. I shouldn't be watching a scene of Vaylin and Scorpio chatting in the throne room. Let me EXPERIENCE my character finding out that they have teamed together in some "Uh oh" moment instead. Is my character even supposed to know that they are now together?

 

I want to simply live the story as my character is living it. One of my major criticisms of KOTFE is that my character doesn't feel as central or as important to the story as they should.

Edited August 22, 2016 by CloudCastle

[BorisKarloffe]

Much like Kylo Ren, Vaylin is just the distilled responses and personality all the flamers and trolls constantly show on the forums. So if she is such a bratty child, perhaps some introspection is needed on your own parts as well?

 

Wow....please tell me this is sarcasm.

 

Here is a hint' date=' Vaylin is only NOW finally able to flex her muscles. Her mother AND father (aka Vitiate) have been holding her back. Vitiate was actually dampening her connection to the force on purpose to control her. What happens when you give anyone a sudden surge of power? Pretty much the inevitable lashing out.[/quote']

 

It's been generally understood that Vaylin was the baddie waiting in the wings for next season, but why nothing to show her struggling with the implications of her power/lack thereof. Not everyone lashes out when they grow in power. There's been nothing to explain her motivation other than she's angry at Senya and the Outlander for...reasons (parents? loyalty to Arcann? Valkorion's spirit? indigestion? bad pvp match?) We don't actually know, despite the screen time she got.

 

The assumption that she is lashing out at anyone wanting to control her is just that, an assumption. Why doesn't she lash out at Arcann or Zakuul/Valkorion's legacy? If she liked Thexan, why doesn't she hold Thexan's death against Arcann? Why wouldn't she jump at the chance to aid the Outlander in getting rid of Valkorion?

 

As for Arcann' date=' he has shown us, through the glimpses we are given, regrets over Thexan and wishing he could travel down Thexan's path (honor/integrity). They are subdtle yet there, and masterfully so, especially given how few people actually notice it. Everyone only remembers his outburts, or the way he says things rather than WHAT he is saying and the inflections used on those words.[/quote']

 

Really now? Where does Arcann show any regret for anything in the entirety of KotFE? He only mentions Thexan in an "I told him so" manner, and nowhere wishes for honor or integrity.

 

Masterful? subtle? few people notice?

 

Tells us then. WHAT does he say that leads to these stunning revelations? Sounds a lot like you're reading your own headcanon into the story. That's fine for your own RP purposes, but objectively for the story, both Arcann and Vaylin needed better written scenes and actions to flesh out their characters.

[devincor]

 

Sith warrior:

 

 

When Baras arranges for the cave-in on Quesh, that felt like a pivotal moment for my character. Up until then, I had been the dutiful apprentice, and Baras's betrayal hit hard. The fact that he sent some minion I had never even met to goad me over holocall just made it even more insulting. I had outgrown my usefulness and now was being "cleaned-up" by some lackey. This tells you about Baras and his methods more than any cut scene with him railing on about you ever could.

 

 

Actually, if i remember correctly.

 

 

The figure in the holocall is Lord Draagh, the apprentice you worked with under Baras' orders to overthrow his master Darth Vengean (who was Baras' superior). Lord Draagh was working with Baras to overthrow him for some time. That allows Baras to ascend to the Dark Council. That was the end of Act 2. Act 3 starts with the betrayal you speak of. So yes, you met him but might not of remembered him.

 

 

Although I agree with you about everything else you said.

Edited August 22, 2016 by devincor

[CloudCastle]

Actually, if i remember correctly.

 

 

The figure in the holocall is Lord Draagh, the apprentice you worked with under Baras' orders to overthrow his master Darth Vengean (who was Baras' superior). Lord Draagh was working with Baras to overthrow him for some time. That allows Baras to ascend to the Dark Council. That was the end of Act 2. Act 3 starts with the betrayal you speak of. So yes, you met him but might not of remembered him.

 

 

Although I agree with you about everything else you said.

 

Ok, thanks. I couldn't recall when he first appeared.

[Aowin]

...

 

I'm quite aware this isn't the only way to develop a villain. However, it is how Star Wars develops its villains, and a Star Wars game should not deviate from tradition if it does not have to. Again, Darth Vader is arguably the greatest villain of all time and it is in large part due to his perspective being shown in the original trilogy. Had we never gotten to know his character so intimately, he would not have had the same impact on us. Darth Vader wasn't just the ultimate bad guy, but he was once the ultimate good guy too, which makes it that much more bittersweet.

 

It wouldn't make any sense at all for the Outlander to be confronting Arcann and Vaylin regularly. They've been trying to stop the Outlander all this time and Arcann wants him/her as a carbonite trophy again. The only way we can gain the anagonist perspective in a way that wouldn't undermine the story is for their scenes to be separate. What BioWare needs to do is make better use of their moments rather than just squandering it on what some consider childish sibling bickering. I don't agree that most of their scenes are as much filler as you or others claim. But again, the issue isn't the villains but rather the pacing of the story itself. Fix the pacing and BioWare wouldn't have superfluous scenes.

 

I think we can all agree we want BioWare to improve and execute on a higher level with KOTET. What we all want is a compelling, engrossing story that we can impact and get lost in. That's why many of us are here. That being said, I do think it's also important to note the things BioWare does right. I will always see the class stories as being mediocre at best due to their underdeveloped and forgettable villains. Not one of them, with perhaps the sith emperor as an exception, were memorable in my eyes.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Aowin

[Aowin]

...

 

To answer your question, yes. BioWare's other games show plenty of scenes without the protagonist. Obviously, the player character is still in most of them. But, many of BioWare's games will develop the antagonist separately. BioWare's RPGs have always been considered movies in which the player directs the story. Even SWTOR was described that way before it launched. The fact that none of the class stories showed the antagonist's perspective at all was bizarre and a departure from BioWare's traditional approach to storytelling.

 

Player agency is not lacking. We did have various choices that had consequences. They just weren't necessarily the consequences players expected or wanted. There is a distinction. Not to mention, more of those choices we made in KOTFE will have an impact in KOTET.

 

Again, when the founders of BioWare articulated that SWTOR is like a film in which you are the actor, director, and the writer, it's clear BioWare was very much trying to create an interactive film. Many have also considered Mass Effect, BioWare's most successful video game property, to be an interactive movie. The way BioWare designs its stories if very much what one would expect in a movie, with the exception being the player controls it.

 

Baras is a terrible example as he is the only major antagonist out of all the classes who actually was also your mentor. Zash was only the villain until Chapter 1 concluded. So yes, of course he was developed because you were always around him. The entire point of not revealing he was the main bad guy was for that plot twist of the betrayal, which was blatantly obvious anyway. I'm not sure why you think the Imperial Agent was so well-done when you even make it abundantly clear you don't know who the antagonist is.

 

I really have no idea who the main villain was in the agent story and frankly I don't care. That's how poorly these class stories handled most of their villains. Being "brainwashed" where the things you were contemplating were different from what you were saying was a dialogue gimmick that didn't personally impress me. It showed the writer was trying too hard and the story was taking itself far too seriously.

 

I'm not against other mechanics for developing an antagonist. I just believe for a Star Wars game the best way is to emulate the films, which always have the antagonist perspective. I expect a Star Wars experience, not something else that just happens to be in the Star Wars setting. I've always seen my interaction with the story in all of BioWare's games as a partnership with BioWare. I do not dictate the story, but I can influence it and create my own personal story as a result. What I think many want is to have absolute control and I find that unrealistic and not in the spirit of what BioWare has done in the past.

 

As far as the protagoinst not feeling important, that to me is more of the shortcomings of not feeling like an actual Commander of the Alliance more so than the antagonist taking screen time away from the protagonist. That's an entirely separate issue.

[XhrisShan]

I only remember the Sith Emperor for the JK story

I agree with you, but imma just be that guy for a second and call out your spoiler.

[Tsillah]

The thought that just occurred to me that the way things are going the npc's are becoming more interesting than the player character.