Lowbies needs reworked

[Technohic]

OMG. First time I have done lowbies (not mids) in years. I generally think it is pointless with so few abilities but I didn't want to do PvE stuff. After fighting for a while, I realized not only do I have poor resource mangement and lack of abilities at level 11; I also do not have gear. Talk about an act in futility.

 

I should probably know better since I have been around since bolsters inception, but in their efforts to make top level PvP more fair for the people who have had now 65 levels to figure it out; they have new players fresh off the starter planets first trip into PvP, probably not having a clue; have that as their first taste similar to back in the day when you had no expertise at max level.

 

No wonder PvP is dwindling. I imagine there are a lot of players that try it and quit without saying a thing. I had a "duh" moment and should know better but new players won't.

 

I suggest raising the minimum PvP level to 25 and then add a freaking tutorial that explains stats and bolster. That or completely normalize all stats in lowbies at least.

[Banderal]

You "65ers".

 

Do you know you get a full "left side" gear setup by doing the first PvP mission after you ding 10? Both relics, both implants, and earpiece. The only thing I really had to go out of my way to get, gear wise, was a helmet.

 

I agree that a brand new person coming into a match with a lvl 10-ish toon is going to have a bad experience. But I'm not sure that "lowbies" is to blame for that. Seems like that would happen any match, any level?

 

OTOH, my recent trip through lowbies was with a sniper, and I think we get some really good abilities early on. So that might be clouding my judgement?

 

Edit:

 

This, however...

 

I suggest ... add a freaking tutorial that explains stats and bolster. That or completely normalize all stats in lowbies at least.

 

Agree 100%.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Banderal

[Technohic]

You "65ers".

 

Do you know you get a full "left side" gear setup by doing the first PvP mission after you ding 10? Both relics, both implants, and earpiece. The only thing I really had to go out of my way to get, gear wise, was a helmet.

 

I agree that a brand new person coming into a match with a lvl 10-ish toon is going to have a bad experience. But I'm not sure that "lowbies" is to blame for that. Seems like that would happen any match, any level?

 

OTOH, my recent trip through lowbies was with a sniper, and I think we get some really good abilities early on. So that might be clouding my judgement?

 

Edit:

 

This, however...

 

 

 

Agree 100%.

 

LMAO! YOu do get rewards! I didn't know that. Going to go to the PvP terminal was the first quest. Ironic quest seeing as I had to click on it to get the mission to begin with. It should just pop up the quest completion window. I just grabbed the quests and kept on going to DK and queued while I ran.

 

I'm trying to relearn my darkness sin. My sin and shadow are both at level 64 so I figured a new toon would be a better way to learn it again. I didn't even have dark charge at level 11. All I could do was thrash, shock, lightning, jolt pretty much. Is fine I guess; but nothing really darkness about it.

[stuffystuffs]

LMAO! YOu do get rewards! I didn't know that. Going to go to the PvP terminal was the first quest. Ironic quest seeing as I had to click on it to get the mission to begin with. It should just pop up the quest completion window. I just grabbed the quests and kept on going to DK and queued while I ran.

 

I'm trying to relearn my darkness sin. My sin and shadow are both at level 64 so I figured a new toon would be a better way to learn it again. I didn't even have dark charge at level 11. All I could do was thrash, shock, lightning, jolt pretty much. Is fine I guess; but nothing really darkness about it.

 

Assassins are really bad at low level in lowbie pvp, which doesn't help.

[foxmob]

the only major problem with lowbies (much moreso than mids) is that the bracket is too large. it's not the number of different levels playing against each other. it's the available skills + procs. lowbies get 1-2 new abilities at least for every 1-2 levels. that doesn't start to even out until the 30s.

 

for example, focus guardian (rage jugg) gets almost his full rotation in the late 30s. that's leap, zealous leap, saber throw, focused burst, force sweep and the instant crit proc off of the two leaps. he has sundering strike to refresh resources. combat focus to do that and escape movement impairing effects. he has saber ward, FD (ED) and enure. oh yes, he also has awe and force stasis (choke).

 

TL; DR: 35+ doesn't belong on the same map as a lvl 20 jugg who has maybe half of those things.

 

the story different between a 40 and 64. 64s obviously have a skills/buffs advantage, but it's like comparing division 1 college sports with division 2 as opposed to divisions 1, 2 or 3, with middle school.

 

so the brackets need to change, and I think any higher level cap is going to necessitate a secondary "mid" tier. however, there is also this for lowbie: you level really really fast. by the time I reached fleet with my latest too, I had only done class quests and was 11 or 12. I took the class choice and crafting quests upon hitting fleet and got 2 more levels immediately. when I was 15, I took the stronghold quest and gained another level. the first time I queued a WZ I leveled. the next time I took a pop, I turned in a WZ quest for a level then got another level at the end of the WZ.

 

my point is that lowbie is VERY transitory. if you spend a lot of time in lowbie, it's because you're slumming it there. so let's not waste too much effort trying to make balance perfect in a bracket that is supposed to be transitory. not only transitory, but a very short portion of your toon's "lifespan."

[Technohic]

the only major problem with lowbies (much moreso than mids) is that the bracket is too large. it's not the number of different levels playing against each other. it's the available skills + procs. lowbies get 1-2 new abilities at least for every 1-2 levels. that doesn't start to even out until the 30s.

 

for example, focus guardian (rage jugg) gets almost his full rotation in the late 30s. that's leap, zealous leap, saber throw, focused burst, force sweep and the instant crit proc off of the two leaps. he has sundering strike to refresh resources. combat focus to do that and escape movement impairing effects. he has saber ward, FD (ED) and enure. oh yes, he also has awe and force stasis (choke).

 

TL; DR: 35+ doesn't belong on the same map as a lvl 20 jugg who has maybe half of those things.

 

the story different between a 40 and 64. 64s obviously have a skills/buffs advantage, but it's like comparing division 1 college sports with division 2 as opposed to divisions 1, 2 or 3, with middle school.

 

so the brackets need to change, and I think any higher level cap is going to necessitate a secondary "mid" tier. however, there is also this for lowbie: you level really really fast. by the time I reached fleet with my latest too, I had only done class quests and was 11 or 12. I took the class choice and crafting quests upon hitting fleet and got 2 more levels immediately. when I was 15, I took the stronghold quest and gained another level. the first time I queued a WZ I leveled. the next time I took a pop, I turned in a WZ quest for a level then got another level at the end of the WZ.

 

my point is that lowbie is VERY transitory. if you spend a lot of time in lowbie, it's because you're slumming it there. so let's not waste too much effort trying to make balance perfect in a bracket that is supposed to be transitory. not only transitory, but a very short portion of your toon's "lifespan."

 

It's short; but it could be the first taste any new players would have. For all the was complained about being a fresh 50 back in the day; you could at least get experience leading up to it in the lowbies. Now that fresh 50 feeling is actually being bolstered onto new players who have no clue what they are walking into.

[foxmob]

It's short; but it could be the first taste any new players would have. For all the was complained about being a fresh 50 back in the day; you could at least get experience leading up to it in the lowbies. Now that fresh 50 feeling is actually being bolstered onto new players who have no clue what they are walking into.

 

buddy, lowbie is nothing like anything you'll be doing ever in the rest of the game. you can't even play a lowbie like you would a midbie (much less a 65) until your 30s.

 

if you really want to push it to its logical limits, pvp shouldn't exist until 30-something in the current game design. the fact that it's even an option is just as an aside. "here you go. have fun in the sandbox for a half hour before you realize you're an infant in a sandbox" sort of thing.

 

ofc, there's also the obvious GW2 solution: get rid of tiers and just make everyone full 65 with full abilities and hey, let's throw in pvp armoring or stats (thereby eliminating such things in the first place and also eliminating unintended hybridization). you could make pretty strong arguments for all of these things (individually or altogether). but at the end of the day, it's a massive compromise that will never ever happen b/c BW doesn't really commit to any vision for this game. ever. the most consistent commitment I've seen outside of the 1-50 class story upon release, was their dedication to refreshing the cartel market. that's it. the rest is just constant disappointment, inconsistency and wishywashiness.

Edited July 31, 2016 by foxmob

[Technohic]

buddy, lowbie is nothing like anything you'll be doing ever in the rest of the game. you can't even play a lowbie like you would a midbie (much less a 65) until your 30s.

 

if you really want to push it to its logical limits, pvp shouldn't exist until 30-something in the current game design. the fact that it's even an option is just as an aside. "here you go. have fun in the sandbox for a half hour before you realize you're an infant in a sandbox" sort of thing.

 

ofc, there's also the obvious GW2 solution: get rid of tiers and just make everyone full 65 with full abilities and hey, let's throw in pvp armoring or stats (thereby eliminating such things in the first place and also eliminating unintended hybridization). you could make pretty strong arguments for all of these things (individually or altogether). but at the end of the day, it's a massive compromise that will never ever happen b/c BW doesn't really commit to any vision for this game. ever. the most consistent commitment I've seen outside of the 1-50 class story upon release, was their dedication to refreshing the cartel market. that's it. the rest is just constant disappointment, inconsistency and wishywashiness.

 

I don't disagree with any of that. I'd rather not have the GW2 way of going about it because I know I personally use generally midbies to learn a class a bit; and it would defeat the purpose if everyone had all of their abilities. I might as well queue in as a 65 at that point.

 

Again; my only point is it could make a bad first impression. I know it falls on def ears with Bioware and I am sure it is too late to worry about that with this game. I'm not even thinking it needs to be balanced. Whether that is eliminating lowbies all together and starting at 40 to assuming level 69 bracket. Just that alone I think would give a better impression as people will likely know more of the game mechanics and would have at least most if not all of their armor slots filled.

[foxmob]

Again; my only point is it could make a bad first impression.

 

yes. and it's also the most imbalanced of all the brackets. it's the one that teaches you nothing about how your AC/spec actually plays. it's literally the last place to go for an accurate impression. although I think you're overselling it as the first place most ppl go. that said, bw does give seed quests for it early. and now that it goes up through 40, you're more likely to have your first experience there.

 

just a point of contention though: you seem to treat 65s as if it's "more difficult" or "better players" or "veterans" whereas lowbies are new players. that's not the case at all. lowbie and mids and 65s are flooded with players from all parts of the spectrum. I'm not saying there aren't more derps in lows (there are) but that's also because lows are inherently more imbalanced (not just player skill but ability unlocks).

 

it used to be that I would craft a set of armorings, mods, enh, with a 50 for my new toon so that he had fresh purple gear ever 2-4 levels. I would rock ppl in low/mid on gear alone. I used gear to not only close but surpass the ability unlock gap. you cannot do that anymore. but the ability unlocks gap has only grown greater while the gear stats have been normalized. thus, lowbie is more fubar than ever. and you get ppl running back to it claiming how much better it is than 65s when, in fact, the majority of that is really just them catching a lucky break.

 

every lowbie match I've been in during DvL (4 characters), with the exception of the occasional stealth node steal, has been predetermined based on the average level of players on one team or another. so I laugh pretty heartily at the idea that lowbies are somehow easier. maybe they're easier on the ego, but when one team has 6 players in their 10s and 20s while the other team is mostly 30s, it's just..like...really? at least the whole premade vs. pug thing you have the same tools at your disposal.

Edited July 31, 2016 by foxmob

[Rolodome]

I don't know that we need another bracket. That would mess with queue times anyway, which is a problem.

 

I think they just need to go back through bolster and make it work the way one would intuitively expect it to work: Even if you're naked, your stats get bolstered to the exact same place (with variation depending on class role, if need be).

 

65s can work differently, of course. They're max level. But this complicated bolstering in leveling brackets has no business being there. As others have said, when you're low enough level, it's highly transitory anyway. It's not like evening out peoples' stats for real, across the board (regardless of gear), is going to seriously destroy the integrity of lowbie PvP. Just the opposite, in fact, IMO. It'll help newbies get a realistic sense of how they stack up, without wondering whether gear is a problem.

 

I think most classes can do ok, even with the ability gap. But being poorly geared is the real killer. Speaking purely from my own anecdotal experiences.

[Technohic]

yes. and it's also the most imbalanced of all the brackets. it's the one that teaches you nothing about how your AC/spec actually plays. it's literally the last place to go for an accurate impression. although I think you're overselling it as the first place most ppl go. that said, bw does give seed quests for it early. and now that it goes up through 40, you're more likely to have your first experience there.

 

just a point of contention though: you seem to treat 65s as if it's "more difficult" or "better players" or "veterans" whereas lowbies are new players. that's not the case at all. lowbie and mids and 65s are flooded with players from all parts of the spectrum. I'm not saying there aren't more derps in lows (there are) but that's also because lows are inherently more imbalanced (not just player skill but ability unlocks).

 

it used to be that I would craft a set of armorings, mods, enh, with a 50 for my new toon so that he had fresh purple gear ever 2-4 levels. I would rock ppl in low/mid on gear alone. I used gear to not only close but surpass the ability unlock gap. you cannot do that anymore. but the ability unlocks gap has only grown greater while the gear stats have been normalized. thus, lowbie is more fubar than ever. and you get ppl running back to it claiming how much better it is than 65s when, in fact, the majority of that is really just them catching a lucky break.

 

every lowbie match I've been in during DvL (4 characters), with the exception of the occasional stealth node steal, has been predetermined based on the average level of players on one team or another. so I laugh pretty heartily at the idea that lowbies are somehow easier. maybe they're easier on the ego, but when one team has 6 players in their 10s and 20s while the other team is mostly 30s, it's just..like...really? at least the whole premade vs. pug thing you have the same tools at your disposal.

 

Nah I mean I just use it to be a derp myself and that its easier for me to learn because I have less abilities to worry about when Im picking up a class I haven't played for a long time, rather than go be a drag on teammates in 65.

[foxmob]

Nah I mean I just use it to be a derp myself and that its easier for me to learn because I have less abilities to worry about when Im picking up a class I haven't played for a long time, rather than go be a drag on teammates in 65.

 

heh. I guess. the fact of the matter is that the abilities you're using 10-20 won't even need to be bound when you're 65. and those that are won't be featured.

 

for example, blade storm. you get that pretty early in guardian life, and until you hit ~37-38ish, it's one of your featured attacks. but once you get your leaps and your auto crits, it's just a convenient filler and useful maybe b/c it has a little extra range on it.

 

likewise, force sweep is one of the only abilities you have for a while, so you use it. but once you get buffed up single target abils, what was once an automatic bind for every encounter now becomes highly situational.

 

learning to use bladestorm and force sweep as core rotational abilities (b/c that's all you have) doesn't teach you anything about how to play. if anything, it just forms bad habits. I know I'm beating a dead horse here, so I'll try not to say it again after this, but things don't start taking shape until 30s-40s.

 

the running joke about pyro pt back in the day was that it was the only class that played lowbie and mids the same way it played end game: spam the same one ability and keep the other two on cd (when you train them).

Edited July 31, 2016 by foxmob

[TrixxieTriss]

Lowbies is extremely easy. All you have to remember is that you're going to probably die heaps because you won't have stuns or breakers early on. But you do get them half way through the bracket.

There is one thing that the lowest lvls of lowbies have in favour, its that they probably hit the hardest in any bracket below 65. I know that sounds weird and the character stats don't change much as you lvl up, if at all, but the amount of damage I can do at lvls 10-20 is astonishing. I noticed after lvl 20 that damage diminishes quiet quickly and you don't start getting it back till you're nearly in mids. 1 mil damage in nearly every match till lvl 20.

Bioware have never come out and said anything about this. I can only speculate that they have something that takes into account your lvl and then decides how many crits it will let you have per minute. Probably by passing the Crit system some how. I know my biggest hit ever on my sent was 26k and that was at lvl 16. The biggest now are about 12k

[TwoLekku]

I know it falls on def ears with Bioware and I am sure it is too late to worry about that with this game. I'm not even thinking it needs to be balanced. Whether that is eliminating lowbies all together and starting at 40 to assuming level 69 bracket.

 

That idea...is just the worst. We didn't all fail to take 2 minutes to figure out how lowbie bolster works (it's not complicated...put gear in empty slots and queue) before we started to level new toons through pvp. I like lowbies, it gives me a chance to memorize keybinds for a new spec slowly enough to have a good handle on things by the time i hit 65. Lots of us do. And lots of us try to help new players in lowbies while we're at it. So we should eliminate lowbies because some people can't even be bothered to learn the one basic rule of lowbies? Super.

 

The best part is the "oh Bioware doesn't listen etc etc" in a post that begins with "i didn't bother to spend a minute figuring out the simplicity of lowbie bolster".

 

Lowbies and mids aren't perfect, and they never will be. Which is fine. They're better than they used to be, especially mids. Which is fine. Use them as they're intended (to help you learn specs, maps, roles, and tactics) or don't use them. But ffs, please don't suggest eliminating them because of your derp. Last thing i wanna do is level another toon WITHOUT pvp to level 40.

[Technohic]

That idea...is just the worst. We didn't all fail to take 2 minutes to figure out how lowbie bolster works (it's not complicated...put gear in empty slots and queue) before we started to level new toons through pvp. I like lowbies, it gives me a chance to memorize keybinds for a new spec slowly enough to have a good handle on things by the time i hit 65. Lots of us do. And lots of us try to help new players in lowbies while we're at it. So we should eliminate lowbies because some people can't even be bothered to learn the one basic rule of lowbies? Super.

 

The best part is the "oh Bioware doesn't listen etc etc" in a post that begins with "i didn't bother to spend a minute figuring out the simplicity of lowbie bolster".

 

Lowbies and mids aren't perfect, and they never will be. Which is fine. They're better than they used to be, especially mids. Which is fine. Use them as they're intended (to help you learn specs, maps, roles, and tactics) or don't use them. But ffs, please don't suggest eliminating them because of your derp. Last thing i wanna do is level another toon WITHOUT pvp to level 40.

 

I know what bolster does. You are missing the point. I'm not talking about changing things for my derp. I'm talking about what the experience would be for a brand new player. They probably have never even heard of the term "bolster" for this game, so how are they going to know to go look for it?

 

I've used it to level most of my toons as well; but that was before the level cap bolster existed and I would say the old version would have been a much better experience to new players. That's the key. Getting rid of it was just one option just to prevent new players from running into this. I'd much rather have a tutorial or something to walk people into it better but it's not likely to happen.

 

Another thing I noticed last night is I queued into midbies with a toon that had been moth balled a long time and got a pop up saying my weapons were reducing the ideal expertise due to my MH and OH weapons. I look at it and see I have 2 expertise crystals and am sitting at around 1700 expertise so I leave and swap those out. I did not get any such message when I popped in with a new character that was just plain out missing gear in slots and was sitting at all of 700 expertise. Would be nice if they could just extend that message to that at very least.

 

All I am saying is to make it more accessible for new players like bolster intended by reducing the chance they have a bad experience from something they have no way of knowing about by simply playing the game. PvP in this game has been declining rapidly as those who have been around a long time have left or became jaded. It all will come crashing down at some point without new faces.

[TwoLekku]

I know what bolster does. You are missing the point. I'm not talking about changing things for my derp.

 

All I am saying is to make it more accessible for new players like bolster intended by reducing the chance they have a bad experience from something they have no way of knowing about by simply playing the game. PvP in this game has been declining rapidly as those who have been around a long time have left or became jaded. It all will come crashing down at some point without new faces.

 

One of your suggestions was to eliminate pvp < lvl 40. I'm not missing the point. That's just the worst suggestion. It's the suggestion equivalent of a double-decker couch:D

 

On a more productive note, i completely agree that a really basic bolster tutorial thingy would serve the game well. Mind you, this is miles away from saying "or you know, we could just kill lowbie pvp".

 

However, the turn-in mission for one's very first pvp includes every bit of gear that a low-lvl char probably hasn't had the chance to acquire yet - that's almost as good as a pop-up saying "put gear on before you queue", especially when a player might not yet have the gear to put on. I mean, once the game hands a new player a grab bag of equipment...and the new player doesn't put it on...i start to wonder how they feed themselves without a tube. We're soooo much better off now than the heady days of grinding for random recruit gear boxes.

 

Hell, we're even much better off than the recent days of grinding LS/DS points to qualify for lowbie relics. That got real old.

 

The only other thing i can think of to make pvp entry even more newproof is to pop the intro quest reward upon a player's first queue pop so that they can equip the left-side gear before rather than after their first WZ.

 

tl/dr the bolster warning works for your weapon because the game assumes you own or can easily acquire a pve mod in place of the expertise mod. Bolster warnings for empty gear slots are incongruous if you don't yet have the gear from the intro pvp quest.

[FlarvawkusTDH]

-went into first wz as mm sniper at level 10. hardly any gear, no implants, ear piece or relics. almost banged out 1000 dps

 

-after getting introduction rewards i now have relics implants ear piece. huge exp boost puts me to level 15 now. second wz i get 1100 dps

 

so obviously a low level lowbie can handle themselves just fine. after a few matches i finally have my 18 gear at level 19 and I'm wrecking level 30 sorcs, ptechs,mercs,and ops..

[Greezt]

One of your suggestions was to eliminate pvp < lvl 40. I'm not missing the point. That's just the worst suggestion. It's the suggestion equivalent of a double-decker couch:D

 

On a more productive note, i completely agree that a really basic bolster tutorial thingy would serve the game well. Mind you, this is miles away from saying "or you know, we could just kill lowbie pvp".

 

However, the turn-in mission for one's very first pvp includes every bit of gear that a low-lvl char probably hasn't had the chance to acquire yet - that's almost as good as a pop-up saying "put gear on before you queue", especially when a player might not yet have the gear to put on. I mean, once the game hands a new player a grab bag of equipment...and the new player doesn't put it on...i start to wonder how they feed themselves without a tube. We're soooo much better off now than the heady days of grinding for random recruit gear boxes.

 

Hell, we're even much better off than the recent days of grinding LS/DS points to qualify for lowbie relics. That got real old.

 

The only other thing i can think of to make pvp entry even more newproof is to pop the intro quest reward upon a player's first queue pop so that they can equip the left-side gear before rather than after their first WZ.

 

tl/dr the bolster warning works for your weapon because the game assumes you own or can easily acquire a pve mod in place of the expertise mod. Bolster warnings for empty gear slots are incongruous if you don't yet have the gear from the intro pvp quest.

 

Emmet was a master builder in the end... New players won't learn much from lowbies. Maybe a bit of objectives, but that's it. I know because I still remember when I started out. Serenity shadow in combat technique guarding people and queueing as a tank for FP. Took me ages to fix it - no one ever thought of telling me I'm dumb (and it was pretty darn obvious, what with no rocks flying around my torso).

 

An experienced player doesn't need lowbies for learning, and a new one won't gain anything from them. I don't even bother with mods in my xp boost gear, and I still do better than most players in lowbies (during this event).

 

Tl;dr - lowbies need a rework. Midbies need one two, honestly. The difference between a lvl 58 and a lvl 64 is much smaller than the difference between a lvl 58 and a lvl 41.

 

-went into first wz as mm sniper at level 10. hardly any gear, no implants, ear piece or relics. almost banged out 1000 dps

 

-after getting introduction rewards i now have relics implants ear piece. huge exp boost puts me to level 15 now. second wz i get 1100 dps

 

so obviously a low level lowbie can handle themselves just fine. after a few matches i finally have my 18 gear at level 19 and I'm wrecking level 30 sorcs, ptechs,mercs,and ops..

 

Ooooh, snipers. They're SO WEAK in lowbies. It must be players able to handle themselves, and not the fact that you get 35m range, your heaviest hitter and an AoE mezz off the bat, right? Not to mention MM has the strongest spammable AoE.

 

Good example, though.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Greezt

[t-darko]

...they have new players fresh...

 

Love this positive touch;)

[Jherad]

I've been arguing that SWTOR needs a decent tutorial and/or in-game advice on gear/bolster for PvP since... Well pretty much since bolster first arrived. Bolster is dumb, clunky and unintuitive. It punishes people for doing what comes naturally (ie. wearing better gear). I'd say a lack of understanding of how bolster works is the single biggest turn-off to new PvPers (they just see themselves getting instantly destroyed, but never realise it's their shiny 220s). Ideally they should just template gear everything. If you're not wearing a piece of PvP gear in a slot (all expertise mods), the slot should be filled temporarily with a template piece of standard tier 1 (no set bonuses). Job done. Bolster fixed forever.

 

As for the rest? Warhammer Online was a terrible terrible game, with terrible terrible PvP. But it did one thing REALLY well. It got people PVPing from the very start. Incredibly low level warzones introduced to everyone early on as part of the initial quest chain, with people all of the same level pressing their 1 or 2 attacks and getting introduced to the 'feel' of PvP. It's what turned my wife from a filthy PVEer into a PvPer.

 

But it's way, way too late for all that now. There isn't the population for any grand changes.

[merovejec]

Lowbie pvp is very fun to do in a group, its funny how you can make people rage with 3 operatives. Also the many noobs u find backpeddaling etc, its hilarious. Also its a great source of xp now for the event.

 

Nevertheless, the brackets are fine, yes all classes are pretty much at their full potential at lvl 32 and are supperior to lvl 10-20 but still its up to the group and players. We have been murdering players in a 3 assasin premade, but then went up against a similar premade and also lost to them.

 

Lastly Lowbie pvp is a great way to farm the achievments for pvp since people die a lot and most people dont go for objectives, which makes the warzone last much longer, giving you time for kills, deathblows, 55 kills etc.

[foxmob]

One of your suggestions was to eliminate pvp < lvl 40. I'm not missing the point. That's just the worst suggestion. It's the suggestion equivalent of a double-decker couch:D

 

I think he lifted that from me, but I wasn't actually suggesting the elimination of pvp for 40 levels. I was pushing things to their logical limits in an attempt to highlight the "problem."

 

however, you said something in another post (I think it was you) about wanting to keep lowbie because you learn your binds slowly.

 

I strenuously disagree (strenuously? you strenuously object? heh). if you are putting those binds where they would be when you have a full complement of abilities, then you are either clicking them or moving them to obscure keys or alt binds. because most of what you have to work with for the first 10 levels isn't what you'll be working with when you get all or even half of your abilities.

 

for example, on my current dvl guy (focus guard) I have had slash sitting in the spot that will one day be concentrated slice/furious strike. he's a 50 right now and that moment still hasn't come. the fact of the matter is that there are so many focus dumps and free abilities that I could unbind slash forever (once I get furious/concentrated) and I wouldn't miss a beat. until then, however, it's a valuable focus dump/filler. even now, though, it's less and less useful. I trained dispatch a few levels ago. even without the utility, dispatch eats up a lot of the places that I would be using slash prior to training dispatch. my point is that slash is only temporarily bound on a single press key.

 

bladestorm also gets moved around. as do combat focus and saber throw (as these abilities become available). I mean...I could place things where they would be if I were full 65, but that's counterproductive to actually playing the game at lower levels. b/c those binds are predicated on having certain other rotational elements that are just empty slots atm. iunno. I understand your logic, but in lowbie, it's just not very practical. at least not for 10-25 or 30. around 35, I start getting serious about my layout. and by 40, it's basically all there.

 

I do feel strongly that you learn a whole lot of nothing about your AC between 10-20. too much is missing. and only a little bit more the next 10 levels. that's your character/AC. the way you have to play the maps is quite different, and we could fruitfully argue the merits to having to pass the ball vs. having movement buffs that allow you to carry, etc. there are strong arguments on both sides there. here, however, I really don't see how an actual lowbie (teens and 20s) is learning valuable lessons about how to play his AC.

 

:2cents:

[dead-cat]

If you already have n 65s, lots of PvP experience etc. then lowbies is fun regardless of the level, since you already know how to play and are up against a great number of ppl who are there the first time, who have no idea what to do when or how to get the most out of their available abilities. Just roll a madness sorc and you start to 0wn the battlefield at lvl 17-18. Saw ppl actually doing that to farm the 55 kills/warzone, killing blows and solo kills achievments, which are much easier to get there, excepeting maybe when there are enough other experienced pvp players rolling new toons.

 

However, if you're there the first time, without the all-the-datacrons-boost, no purple stim, because you have no idea they even exist, you have no idea why ppl call east/west in novarre, but ours/theirs in hypergate or left/right from your spawn point of view in voidstar, to sum it up, when you're just running around without a clue expecting to whack stuff and have fun, then meeting experienced ppl or even premades in their 30ies with tank/healer combos out there to farm you, you're most likely going to decide that it's not fun at all and you quit this pvp-thinggy after a few warzones and decide it's noth worth to come back.

For these ppl bolster is no help. Perhaps only a worling ELO system might be, when you're matched against ppl of comparable skill (or lack thereof), then newcomers might actually find it to be fun.

 

And for a first-timer GSF is even worse.

[AlrikFassbauer]

It punishes people for doing what comes naturally (ie. wearing better gear).

 

Regarding gear ... I do remember how many questions the Drakensang forums ( about the offline games ) received when people found out that their characters couldn't perform any spells anymore.

 

Our answer, delivered for the x-th time, was already in the game :

"Your character is wearing pieces of metal, doesn't he / she ?"

 

Well, everyone knew it. It came naturally, in your words, because the rules set stated it, and the in-game tutorial / descriptions as well. It was explicitely stated that users of magic must not use metal as part of their gear.

 

You write "what comes naturally". We,, to you, maybe. There might be more than enough people out there to whom it does not come naturally. Like with the metal part.

 

And, Recruit Gear seemingly wasn't enough. If wearing better gear was coming as something natural to people, there wouldn't have ben Bolster in the fiirst place. People probably though : "Why should my character wear a piece with Expertice / Competence , when it brings nothing to me in PvE ?" The problem was, that Experise / Competence was absolutely useless for PvE. So, PvE people probably didn't bother, I guess.

Edited August 2, 2016 by AlrikFassbauer

[Jherad]

You write "what comes naturally". We,, to you, maybe. There might be more than enough people out there to whom it does not come naturally. Like with the metal part.

 

And, Recruit Gear seemingly wasn't enough. If wearing better gear was coming as something natural to people, there wouldn't have ben Bolster in the fiirst place

 

I'm pretty sure you've *completely* misread or misinterpreted what I wrote.

 

It *is* natural for people to get better gear. The problem is that the bolster system actively punishes people for doing that (with PvE gear), unless they've taken the time to read the forums and research BW's arcane bolster cluster**** - and downgrade from 220+s to 190s. If you don't think that's happening, then I'd ask you to explain the scores of people running around with in warzones with 216s+ and low expertise. If you think that comes 'naturally' to people, I'd say you're crazy - this isn't some RP element like the whole metal for magic thing. It's a broken mechanic.

 

I really don't think it's controversial to ask BW to fix the system or implement an in-game explanation for how someone needs to navigate it without screwing themselves over.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Jherad