What do Assassins/Shadows need/want coming into 5.0

[Iona_Var]

This may or may not be a pointless post(depending on if Bioware puts class changes on pts, to well, test, and actually listens to player feedback)but since 5.0 will be here before we know it I was curious as to what the rest of this beloved assassin/shadow community thought about what the class needs and what the class wants.

 

I can not speak for sin/shadow tanks but I can say our dps specs are pretty lacking. Deception and Hatred both should have a more competative dps output and hatred for sure could use a survivability increase. The question is how to do those things without making them too strong/weak in one game mode or the other(pve vs pvp).

 

I know one of the biggest complaints for deception is that most of the time, we can't use phantom stride as a gap closer as it has two(or 3) stacks of recklessness tied to it so to use it as a gap closer is a dps loss most of the time. Now the quick fix to this would be to reduce the cd of recklessness and remove the stacks from ps, but I know Aelanis has explained before how that wouldn't work as well as you'd think, so what ability could we tie it too then?

 

For hatred, people complain a lot about how squishy the spec is and that is absolutely true. Problem is if Bioware increases our self-heals then they need to adjust our dps to compensate so we are not op in pvp. I'd suggest moving away from self heals and going more toward a "shield" which has been suggested several times, in order to mitigate damage.

 

This is just a brainstorming post and I'm not a master sin/shadow player, I just want this class to be on par with the other classes for pvp and pve. We've been over-buffed and over-nerfed so many times, I just want us to be right in the middle where we don't really need many tweaks to be on par with other classes.

[LudhaninRolgge]

The best solution for Deception's PS would be a completely new CD that give 3 stacks of Static Charges on the same cooldown that PS. Other than that and a damage increase to compensate our lack of raid utility, I don't think there's a lot more to ask.

[sithBracer]

I hate to break this to you, but we are going to be nerfed again in 5.0.

[LudhaninRolgge]

I hate to break this to you, but we are going to be nerfed again in 5.0.

 

I'm sure you're a reliable source so I guess you're right

[FlavivsAetivs]

Unfortunately Mikaela's right. Every time they update, we come out as a decent spec (in 4.0 we came out as an actually useful one in the top 3), which they immediately obliterate with severe nerfs.

 

~ Eudoxia

[Iona_Var]

See the first statement in my opening post. The sad thing is that Bioware no longer puts major(or minor) class changes on the pts to test out anymore. They just buff and nerf and when they do that, it's usually an over-buff followed by an over-nerf. Any changes that effect dps/healing/survivability should be put on the pts to test. If they actually did that(and actually listened to their players) we would have far fewer class balance problems.

[Sheike]

When it comes to Darkness/Kinetic Combat I feel like we should be able to do something else besides just Deprevating Volts/Cascading Debris with our 3-stack of Harnessed Darkness/Shadows. Also there are some decent ideas in this thread for a variety of things - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=880409

[twogger]

For dps increase, how about an attack that only hits boss mobs. That would not affect pvp damage, and give a boost that is needed.

 

For defense, how about let us equip shields. Then, if our choice is for more defense, we will have to give up crit/power pieces which would lower dps.

 

Lastly, lower the force power required for shock/project so all 3 specs can use it. I just like the animation on it.

[Aelanis]

My wish list:

1. New, balanced, bug free content.
   
2. Remove either balanced or bug free from the previous item.
   
3. Remove the other qualifier from the first line item.
   
4. A nice mix of survivability and damage for Hatred, by boosting the damage on Thrash somehow (proc please?) and turn the self heals into a damage absorption bubble.
   
5. A new ability to tie burst to for Deception, both the Static Charge stacks and a little more burst back besides.
   
6. I'd love to have my 15 second Force Speed back.

[Iona_Var]

For dps increase, how about an attack that only hits boss mobs. That would not affect pvp damage, and give a boost that is needed.

 

For defense, how about let us equip shields. Then, if our choice is for more defense, we will have to give up crit/power pieces which would lower dps.

 

Lastly, lower the force power required for shock/project so all 3 specs can use it. I just like the animation on it.

 

Your 1st point has merit, and it's something that's been brought up several times, to make abilities act differently in pve/pvp(such as increase/decrease dps, heals, etc) so that a nerf or buff to one ability doesn't effect both aspects of the game.

 

2nd point is kind of null though because especially for end-game content you need dps and survivability. Deception has great passive defense capabilities, I'd like to see hatred have something similar.

 

3rd point is also null because hatred and deception don't use shock because it's force cost is too high, it's because it is not apart of their rotation. You shouldn't use it outside of tank spec or low level and especially when deception gets ball lightning, do not use it because ball lightning replaces shock and shares the same cooldown.

[AdjeYo]

Your 1st point has merit, and it's something that's been brought up several times, to make abilities act differently in pve/pvp(such as increase/decrease dps, heals, etc) so that a nerf or buff to one ability doesn't effect both aspects of the game.

 

2nd point is kind of null though because especially for end-game content you need dps and survivability. Deception has great passive defense capabilities, I'd like to see hatred have something similar.

 

3rd point is also null because hatred and deception don't use shock because it's force cost is too high, it's because it is not apart of their rotation. You shouldn't use it outside of tank spec or low level and especially when deception gets ball lightning, do not use it because ball lightning replaces shock and shares the same cooldown.

 

Deception uses Shock, well until level 58 at least. After that Deception uses the Shock replacement, but it's pretty much still Shock only with more damage. Hell Deception has always used Shock. For the rest I agree with you, I just wanted to note that.

Edited July 27, 2016 by AdjeYo

[DarkSaberMaster]

To be revamped back to 2.7 Balance Shadow. This **** now is garbage.

[Kazz_Devlin]

Well the argument that most make is that you can chose to use phantom stride as a gap closer or DPS boost though if you forgo the DPS boost your are severely cutting your already low DPS output. If you have a choice of being shot to death or stabbed to death did you really ever have a choice? Now if they want to keep PS (phantom stride) as is then give us a alacrity boost when in surging charge much like Darkness have with accuracy couple that along with a heal seeing as we aren't likely to get a DPS boost the heal could increase survival and overall that would increase DPS. I would prefer a ability tied to lightning that slows the turning rate so its possible to get behind targets as well. I also miss spike knocking victims down don't see why this was taken and choke left in kinda hypocritical if you ask me. Edited July 28, 2016 by Kazz_Devlin

[PlagaNerezza]

This may or may not be a pointless post(depending on if Bioware puts class changes on pts, to well, test, and actually listens to player feedback)but since 5.0 will be here before we know it I was curious as to what the rest of this beloved assassin/shadow community thought about what the class needs and what the class wants.

 

I can not speak for sin/shadow tanks but I can say our dps specs are pretty lacking. Deception and Hatred both should have a more competative dps output and hatred for sure could use a survivability increase. The question is how to do those things without making them too strong/weak in one game mode or the other(pve vs pvp).

 

I know one of the biggest complaints for deception is that most of the time, we can't use phantom stride as a gap closer as it has two(or 3) stacks of recklessness tied to it so to use it as a gap closer is a dps loss most of the time. Now the quick fix to this would be to reduce the cd of recklessness and remove the stacks from ps, but I know Aelanis has explained before how that wouldn't work as well as you'd think, so what ability could we tie it too then?

 

For hatred, people complain a lot about how squishy the spec is and that is absolutely true. Problem is if Bioware increases our self-heals then they need to adjust our dps to compensate so we are not op in pvp. I'd suggest moving away from self heals and going more toward a "shield" which has been suggested several times, in order to mitigate damage.

 

This is just a brainstorming post and I'm not a master sin/shadow player, I just want this class to be on par with the other classes for pvp and pve. We've been over-buffed and over-nerfed so many times, I just want us to be right in the middle where we don't really need many tweaks to be on par with other classes.

 

For Madness a Mid-Ranged DoT Spread Ability.

For Deception More Burst

For Tank More Self-Heals

 

Very simple and clean request that any developer can understand and test.

 

Why? For DPS we under perform in a variety of ways, but the main is we require close range and are not being rewarded enough burst for having to be on top of players. We are bottom DPS with deception.

 

For DPS our tanks should have self-heals. In general my advice to Bioware is they need to make it more forgiving on tanks. They are blamed often for group content failures if they miss mechanics. No one wants to tank because the entire group is dependent on the tank having a lot of familiarity with the HM and NiM mechanics on a lot of these fights. We have a storage because these mechanics are to harsh on tanks and overall way to easy on the DPS players whose only roll is usually like free casting dps with a goal of over 5k dps. That isn't really group content. Its tanks do all the mechanics dps only dps. Kind of lame imo. Put somethings on the DPS they have to do mechanically during the fight and back off the tanks and give them time and better rewards for pulling groups through your group content. I'm always amazed at how the loot mechanics work. Always drop high-end tank gear. We don't have enough. Make Tank Gear stupidly easy to obtain and have it be stronger. Less tank deaths/less wipes. More happy customers. Simply put your customer base cannot handle wiping on raids. They rage quit at the first sign of trouble.

Edited August 1, 2016 by PlagaNerezza

[MultiSamuelson]

Maybe you will think I am a madman, but as a Infil Shadow player, I would like more sustain damage. As for Balance spec, give some range back to Force in Balance and little more burst and I would be happy.

 

May the Schwartz be with you!

[Iona_Var]

For Madness a Mid-Ranged DoT Spread Ability.

For Deception More Burst

For Tank More Self-Heals

 

Very simple and clean request that any developer can understand and test.

 

Why? For DPS we under perform in a variety of ways, but the main is we require close range and are not being rewarded enough burst for having to be on top of players. We are bottom DPS with deception.

 

For DPS our tanks should have self-heals. In general my advice to Bioware is they need to make it more forgiving on tanks. They are blamed often for group content failures if they miss mechanics. No one wants to tank because the entire group is dependent on the tank having a lot of familiarity with the HM and NiM mechanics on a lot of these fights. We have a storage because these mechanics are to harsh on tanks and overall way to easy on the DPS players whose only roll is usually like free casting dps with a goal of over 5k dps. That isn't really group content. Its tanks do all the mechanics dps only dps. Kind of lame imo. Put somethings on the DPS they have to do mechanically during the fight and back off the tanks and give them time and better rewards for pulling groups through your group content. I'm always amazed at how the loot mechanics work. Always drop high-end tank gear. We don't have enough. Make Tank Gear stupidly easy to obtain and have it be stronger. Less tank deaths/less wipes. More happy customers. Simply put your customer base cannot handle wiping on raids. They rage quit at the first sign of trouble.

 

I would personally like to see hatred get a little more range to it's abilities especially since Deathfields radius got nerfed to tone down sorcs. Or they could do it us like they did to maras and sentinels and give us laughable dotspread but really strong single target sustained dps.

 

Deception absolutely needs more burst and a bit more sustained. I would also like to see the stacks of recklessness removed from phantom stride and tied to another ability(maybe mass mind control)

 

Now your last point I don't exactly agree with. For one you should be replacing any comm-type gear you have with unassembled pieces ASAP.

 

Two, I don't know how much HM/NiM content you do but the last I knew assassin/shadow tanks have been the most desirable since a little after 3.0 Now that might have changed but sin/shadow tanks are still very good. Yes tanks need to execute a lot of mechanics but in hm and nim, the dps and healers are hardly free to just free-cast at will like you stated.

[Aelanis]

For Madness a Mid-Ranged DoT Spread Ability.

For Deception More Burst

For Tank More Self-Heals

 

Very simple and clean request that any developer can understand and test.

 

Why? For DPS we under perform in a variety of ways, but the main is we require close range and are not being rewarded enough burst for having to be on top of players. We are bottom DPS with deception.

 

For DPS our tanks should have self-heals. In general my advice to Bioware is they need to make it more forgiving on tanks. They are blamed often for group content failures if they miss mechanics. No one wants to tank because the entire group is dependent on the tank having a lot of familiarity with the HM and NiM mechanics on a lot of these fights. We have a storage because these mechanics are to harsh on tanks and overall way to easy on the DPS players whose only roll is usually like free casting dps with a goal of over 5k dps. That isn't really group content. Its tanks do all the mechanics dps only dps. Kind of lame imo. Put somethings on the DPS they have to do mechanically during the fight and back off the tanks and give them time and better rewards for pulling groups through your group content. I'm always amazed at how the loot mechanics work. Always drop high-end tank gear. We don't have enough. Make Tank Gear stupidly easy to obtain and have it be stronger. Less tank deaths/less wipes. More happy customers. Simply put your customer base cannot handle wiping on raids. They rage quit at the first sign of trouble.

 

Have you played S&V or TFB NiM? Most boring instances to tank in the game. You have more to do in most HM flashpoints.

 

Besides, I've seen way more groups fail due to garbage DPS than tanks or healers.

[LudhaninRolgge]

Deception absolutely needs more burst and a bit more sustained. I would also like to see the stacks of recklessness removed from phantom stride and tied to another ability(maybe mass mind control)

 

That would be a nerf since PS = 30" CD and MMC = 45" CD. And you can't reduce MMC's CD because all the other de-aggro (as far as I'm aware) are also 45".

[AdjeYo]

That would be a nerf since PS = 30" CD and MMC = 45" CD. And you can't reduce MMC's CD because all the other de-aggro (as far as I'm aware) are also 45".

 

Well Pyrotech has a 35'' CD on their de-taunt, so I don't see why MMC's CD couldn't be reduced to 30''. It's not like the utility that reduced damage taken for anyone in range is so powerful that this CD would make it too powerful.

 

Or they could just make an internal proc where consuming three stacks of static charge will refund three stacks of static charge with a 30'' ICD. Either way, PS' mobility aspect is seriously undermined by having it used rotationally.

Edited August 3, 2016 by AdjeYo

[LudhaninRolgge]

Well Pyrotech has a 35'' CD on their de-taunt, so I don't see why MMC's CD couldn't be reduced to 30''. It's not like the utility that reduced damage taken for anyone in range is so powerful that this CD would make it too powerful.

 

Or they could just make an internal proc where consuming three stacks of static charge will refund three stacks of static charge with a 30'' ICD. Either way, PS' mobility aspect is seriously undermined by having it used rotationally.

 

I stand corrected then ^^ The easiest way would be a new offensive CD that gives 3 stacks of Static Charges.

[PlagaNerezza]

Have you played S&V or TFB NiM? Most boring instances to tank in the game. You have more to do in most HM flashpoints.

 

Besides, I've seen way more groups fail due to garbage DPS than tanks or healers.

 

What happens in this game more frequently? LF1M Need Tank. Can you swap to your Tank? Does anyone know a tank that knows this operation?

 

Or

 

Hey can you swap out tanking and go DPS?

 

My point is pretty simple. Buff tanks and bring back SIN tanks self heals. It was unique and cool. If it makes it easier to tank so what? If something is already easy on the tanks it doesn't hurt the raid. It only helps the goal of people having more fun and completing more operations. Being less fustrated. As you said. NiM is easy. So for you it doesn't matter if they make basic tanking a little more forgiving and get a few more people willing to fill the roll.

 

Or not and we can wait for the resurgence in players with the new content....

[Tsetso]

My point is pretty simple. Buff tanks and bring back SIN tanks self heals. It was unique and cool. If it makes it easier to tank so what?

 

I seriously doubt they'll ever return harnessed darkness to self heals. They had too much trouble tuning it, because its mitigation value depended too much of the incoming dmg and every time they tweaked some OP they risked to break assassin tanks. The same thing is true for PVP of course. Self-heals would probably make us OP in 1v1 but at the same time losing 4% dr we'd be the squishiest tanks in 4v4

[Iona_Var]

What happens in this game more frequently? LF1M Need Tank. Can you swap to your Tank? Does anyone know a tank that knows this operation?

 

Or

 

Hey can you swap out tanking and go DPS?

 

My point is pretty simple. Buff tanks and bring back SIN tanks self heals. It was unique and cool. If it makes it easier to tank so what? If something is already easy on the tanks it doesn't hurt the raid. It only helps the goal of people having more fun and completing more operations. Being less fustrated. As you said. NiM is easy. So for you it doesn't matter if they make basic tanking a little more forgiving and get a few more people willing to fill the roll.

 

Or not and we can wait for the resurgence in players with the new content....

 

I can tell you that it's very doubtful that sin tanks will ever get self heals again, because it is just too hard to balance correctly. Sin tanks are actually in a better place now then when they had self heals so I fear they'd end up nerfing something vital in order to bring self heals back. And the issue with finding a tank isn't because tanks are hard to play, it's that very few know the actual role. It has nothing to do with class. If there aren't any tanks with a lockout and know certain fights then that is because they're simply isn't any players on who know that role. Not because sin tanks are too hard to play or too under powered.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Iona_Var

[SHAVEDKILLER]

Give Serenity some ranged attacks back..im sick of dry humping target to kill them...

[Iona_Var]

Give Serenity some ranged attacks back..im sick of dry humping target to kill them...

 

I would be okay with hatred's current range on it's abilities if we had the dps to compensate for it. But since we have neither right now, I'd like a good balance of both.