stop making excuses just because *blank* is 7 years old

[Tarka]

This is 2011, get your **** together or you sink, and that's what this game did, sunk.

 

I think it was best said in an article written on F13.net:

 

It isn't "build it and they will come" anymore, it's "build it and they will come for the first 30 days and then god help you if you aren't up to scratch"

[Boesmith]

I think it was best said in an article written on F13.net:

 

I have to check it out.

[Tarka]

Amen. OP has no idea how games are developed.

 

Yay, another whining thread.

 

And how is whining about whiners better?

[Wishpig]

Anyone who claims TOR should have just as much content as WoW and should be just as polished as WoW... HAS NO FREAKING IDEA how difficult it is to make games.

 

It would be simply impossible for SWTOR to have as much content and be as polished as WoW is. Not even with the massive resources bioware or ea have.

 

If you took WoW when it was first released and compare it to SWTOR now, SWTOR would be the CLEARLY superior product. It would blow WoW outta the water. But WoW has had several years and several expansions to tidy up and add to the game.

 

In a perfect world where money and time was no issue, yeah, SWTOR would be clearly seven years more advanced then WoW, and thus superior in every way. However, this is not a perfect world... and like ALL MMO's... this is not even close to a perfect game.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Wishpig

[Tarka]

I have to check it out.

 

To be honest, I found Raph Kosters talk on "Ten Lessons from Game Design for Games-As-Service" video to be VERY interesting and thought provoking:

 

 

Bioware could do well and take some notes.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Tarka

[RachelAnne]

Seriously... I'm tired of seeing people say "Oh you can't compare X to X because *blank* has had more time in development."

 

People who are joining MMORPGs for the first time are going to pick the better MMO. They don't care which one is older or which one is new

 

Bioware must compete with the leading game in the industry even if that has had a 7+ years head start.

 

Bioware has to work over time to at-least be on par with that game which has had plenty of time to develop into the MMO that it is now

 

you cant give Bioware that excuse because new MMO players won't.

 

Just a shortened version of what i wanted to say... Too tired right now.

 

WOW is slowly dieing, it started with WOTLK and it will go on with the Panda´s. The wow philosophy is simple, get everything, dont work for anything but play a singleplayer game with bot support.

 

While this will give you your success faster, it does not make you addictive or lets say "intrested" in the game. You play it and leave it - thats not something a company should look out for, if they design a game.

 

All the people that complain here, at Rift, at War or at AOC did come from wow, were bored there but just dont understand why they were bored.

 

BW should keep SWTOR away from the wow philosophy and it will be a success.

[Jarlathe]

I think it was best said in an article written on F13.net:

 

And it goes back to your(I think) car analogy.

 

Just as far back as the 1970's we didn't have seat-belts, or the were options on a new vehicle. Now? It's unheard of not to have seat-belts. They are a standard feature.

 

Radios. Belive it or not, back in the 1980's radios were an option. Even a crappy AM only one. Now, I'd be surprised if you can find a car without a basic AM/FM/SAT/CD/MP3 player included in the base model.

 

Automatic transmissions. Most cars today include this. Not so even as resent as the 1990's.

 

What I'm getting at is things evolve. They get better as we move forward. If they don't, they fail. I really don't want to see this for SWTOR. I want to see it survive and prosper. Not as some niche MMO with 100K users like some resent MMO's. I'm still saying that lack of basic features not included in the shipped game was an EA thing. EA is well known for shoving games out the door whether they are ready or not. They always try and patch and add after the fact.

 

As for those still yacking about content. It's not about content. It's about basic features that should have been in the shipped version. There is plenty of content in this game. No one is arguing that point.

[Tarka]

Anyone who claims TOR should have just as much content as WoW and should be just as polished as WoW... HAS NO FREAKING IDEA how difficult it is to make games.

 

It would be simply impossible for SWTOR to have as much content and be as polished as WoW is. Not even with the massive resources bioware or ea have.

 

If you took WoW when it was first released and compare it to SWTOR now, SWTOR would be the CLEARLY superior product. It would blow WoW outta the water. But WoW has had several years and several expansions to tidy up and add to the game.

 

In a perfect world where money and time was no issue, yeah, SWTOR would be clearly seven years more advanced then WoW, and thus superior in every way. However, this is not a perfect world... and like ALL MMO's... this is not even close to a perfect game.

 

One should differentiate volume of content from functionality and level of quality that the product should be exhibiting at launch.

 

And whilst it is true that it would be unreasonable to expect the sheer volume of content that WoW has now, in SWTOR at launch nevertheless this product has issues in certain areas that are being found to be of an insufficient standard for ANY MMO to launch with.

 

In short: people aren't necessarily talking about content. It's the functionality and quality in certain areas that is the issue.

[Tarka]

And it goes back to your(I think) car analogy.

 

Just as far back as the 1970's we didn't have seat-belts, or the were options on a new vehicle. Now? It's unheard of not to have seat-belts. They are a standard feature.

 

Radios. Belive it or not, back in the 1980's radios were an option. Even a crappy AM only one. Now, I'd be surprised if you can find a car without a basic AM/FM/SAT/CD/MP3 player included in the base model.

 

Automatic transmissions. Most cars today include this. Not so even as resent as the 1990's.

 

Yep. In fact, I still drive a 14 year old car that has the original radio in it.

No CD player like many cars have now.

 

It is suicidal (from a business perspective) to launch a product that cannot adequately compete in an aggressive and saturated market. Regardless of what market it is.

 

What I'm getting at is things evolve. They get better as we move forward. If they don't, they fail. I really don't want to see this for SWTOR. I want to see it survive and prosper. Not as some niche MMO with 100K users like some resent MMO's. I'm still saying that lack of basic features not included in the shipped game was an EA thing. EA is well known for shoving games out the door whether they are ready or not. They always try and patch and add after the fact.

 

As for those still yacking about content. It's not about content. It's about basic features that should have been in the shipped version. There is plenty of content in this game. No one is arguing that point.

 

Agreed. The features and quality must be of sufficient quality EVEN at launch. Otherwise, given todays heavily saturated market, a product can very easily fail.

 

Just look at AOC. Launched with around 1 million subs. Lost the majority in the first year or so. Why? Because even though there was sufficient interest to generate 1 million box sales, the product in its entirety was deemed of insufficient quality.

 

 

Ultimately, whether an MMO is successful in the long term can be likened to Darwin's "Survival of the fittest": The ability to adapt and change in accordance with the exterior demands imposed on it (i.e. the market and playerbase).

Edited December 28, 2011 by Tarka

[Shortwave]

I guess I picked the Better MMO then because WoW fraking Suxs. Its frigging easy mode for babies about to become even MORE easy mode with a side of Pokemon ontop to attract even more babies. Pandas?! fraking Pandas how does that make a game better....

 

Pffft, you know you're going right back to WoW to play a panda and experiment with Baby's First Talent Tree. Don't lie.

[Wishpig]

One should differentiate volume of content from functionality and level of quality that the product should be exhibiting at launch.

 

And whilst it is true that it would be unreasonable to expect the sheer volume of content that WoW has now, in SWTOR at launch nevertheless this product has issues in certain areas that are being found to be of an insufficient standard for ANY MMO to launch with.

 

In short: people aren't necessarily talking about content. It's the functionality and quality in certain areas that is the issue.

 

Some people bring up very valid points, and SWTOR does fall short in areas that is has no excuse to fall short in. For example, corridor like regions are a major step back imo. A beloved part of and EXPECTED part of MMO's are huge environments for people to explore. SWTOR rails you in way to frequently.

 

I'm not talking about those points, I'm merely talking about the people who expect this game to have far less bugs or to have far more content. Some people literally expect this game to be bigger then WoW, to have no downtime, to be bug free, ect. There are MANY of these types of people.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Wishpig

[Tarka]

Some people bring up very valid points, and SWTOR does fall short in areas that is has no excuse to fall short in. For example, corridor like regions are a major step back imo. A beloved part of and EXPECTED part of MMO's are huge environments for people to explore. SWTOR rails you in way to frequently.

 

I'm not talking about those points, I'm merely talking about the people who expect this game to have far less bugs or to have far more content. Some people literally expect this game to be bigger then WoW, to have no downtime, to be bug free, ect. There are MANY of these types of people.

 

Well, I will agree that to expect much more content than SWTOR has at launch (i.e. the sheer amount of missions, landmasses, etc) could be considered as unreasonable.

 

The downtime situation is slightly different. Whilst I'm sure there are some individuals who don't expect ANY downtime, todays downtime did in fact cause a bit of a stir for other reasons. Reasons which involved certain business decisions made by Bioware that are upsetting players in the EU. Hopefully now Bioware have learned their lesson from today's little incident.

 

My point is that although there are most likely a subset of individuals whose demands could be considered completely unreasonable. That portion is probably far smaller than those with perfectly reasonable concerns. The problem is that the latter often wrongly get viewed in the same respect as the former.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Tarka

[Trevalon]

This thread brings a tear to my eye.

 

Its like all the half-way intelligent people came together to make a thread that is 100% true and the fanbots can't hardly say anything other than to bash WoW analogies...

 

Well players sirs, well Played...

[Skoobie]

And it goes back to your(I think) car analogy.

 

Just as far back as the 1970's we didn't have seat-belts, or the were options on a new vehicle. Now? It's unheard of not to have seat-belts. They are a standard feature.

 

Radios. Belive it or not, back in the 1980's radios were an option. Even a crappy AM only one. Now, I'd be surprised if you can find a car without a basic AM/FM/SAT/CD/MP3 player included in the base model.

 

Automatic transmissions. Most cars today include this. Not so even as resent as the 1990's

 

Cars are also a lot more expensive now then they were then, to reflect all these standard features.

 

Would it have been acceptable if Bioware had all the features many players are asking for (at launch), but charged $100 for the standard game?

Edited December 28, 2011 by Skoobie

[Jarlathe]

I'm not talking about those points, I'm merely talking about the people who expect this game to have far less bugs or to have far more content. Some people literally expect this game to be bigger then WoW, to have no downtime, to be bug free, ect. There are MANY of these types of people.

 

Bugs are semi-fine. Crap happens that can not be 100% predicted in even a huge open beta. Bugs that were reported for months in beta and not addressed/fixed are not fine.

 

Content is fine. There is enough for a launch product. Let's give Bioware a thumbs up for that at least. Granted, I am disappointed with not have a choice of 2+ zones to level in, but it is what it is. I don't need to roll an alt at this very minute.

 

Downtime. That's to be expected. Hell, the whole launch has been pretty smooth. Extended maintenance can and will happen.

[Lokai]

Seriously... I'm tired of seeing people say "Oh you can't compare X to X because *blank* has had more time in development."

 

People who are joining MMORPGs for the first time are going to pick the better MMO. They don't care which one is older or which one is new

 

Bioware must compete with the leading game in the industry even if that has had a 7+ years head start.

 

Bioware has to work over time to at-least be on par with that game which has had plenty of time to develop into the MMO that it is now

 

you cant give Bioware that excuse because new MMO players won't.

 

Just a shortened version of what i wanted to say... Too tired right now.

 

and expecting a new mmo to have all features of an mmo has been out for 7 years is just dumb... is NO way a new mmo can produce content and all features of an mmo has had time and money to put into something over 7 years its IMPOSSIBLE if you cant let mmo mature a bit go back to WoW...

[Tarka]

Bugs are semi-fine. Crap happens that can not be 100% predicted in even a huge open beta. Bugs that were reported for months in beta and not addressed/fixed are not fine.

 

Content is fine. There is enough for a launch product. Let's give Bioware a thumbs up for that at least. Granted, I am disappointed with not have a choice of 2+ zones to level in, but it is what it is. I don't need to roll an alt at this very minute.

 

Downtime. That's to be expected. Hell, the whole launch has been pretty smooth. Extended maintenance can and will happen.

 

Agreed. However, deciding to have downtime during the day and during a holiday period, and then having to extend it into "peak time" is not necessarily acceptable.

[Jarlathe]

Cars are also a lot more expensive now then they were then, to reflect all these standard features.

 

Not really. Comparing today's dollar worth to yesteryears comes out pretty even. I forget the term for it, but if you do some googlefu you'll see.

 

***EDIT***

 

What I mean is buying a base model car today is the same as buying it 30 years ago. Our spending power was pretty much the same. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say we get more bang for our buck now. Features that were options then, are included now. Add in all the lower % financing... Yeah, I'm old enough to remember 18+% car loans, and that was with good credit.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Jarlathe

[Tarka]

and expecting a new mmo to have all features of an mmo has been out for 7 years is just dumb... is NO way a new mmo can produce content and all features of an mmo has had time and money to put into something over 7 years its IMPOSSIBLE if you cant let mmo mature a bit go back to WoW...

 

Is it dumb to expect such things as:

• A fully functional and working UI system for the AH.
  
• A customisable UI.
  
• A guild list that works and doesn't "forget" members.
  

I wouldn't say it is.

 

Expecting grossly more actual content than the game has now may be justifiably considered as "dumb" or unreasonable. But content isn't the only area of the game under focus.

[SuperomegaOP]

This thread brings a tear to my eye.

 

Its like all the half-way intelligent people came together to make a thread that is 100% true and the fanbots can't hardly say anything other than to bash WoW analogies...

 

Well players sirs, well Played...

 

as my trooper would say...

 

um, uh... thanks?

[Tarka]

Not really. Comparing today's dollar worth to yesteryears comes out pretty even. I forget the term for it, but if you do some googlefu you'll see.

 

Agreed. The cost of a CD player 15 years ago was MUCH higher than it is today.

 

Once the initial development costs have been recouped, then prices begin to fall.

 

Hence, this is why many cars these days have things like CD players, sunroofs, etc, etc as standard. All because they are now more affordable than they used to be.

[Bollah]

This. When someone says "on par" with WoW they don't mean content, because that is impossible unless they stay in development status for 10 years. They are talking about basic functions such as server-only LFG, customizable UI, a good GTN and of course the most important and biggest of all, character responsiveness and no ability delay. Yet SW:TOR launched with many functions that could be considered a staple yet are not in.

 

WoW has no content at end game. What do people do after they killed Deathwing in LFR? Everyone has killed Deathwing now. What do Wow players do for the next year? Nothing.

 

WoW end game content is overated, because a new level 85 is going straight to Dragon Soul.

[Hammerreborn]

and expecting a new mmo to have all features of an mmo has been out for 7 years is just dumb... is NO way a new mmo can produce content and all features of an mmo has had time and money to put into something over 7 years its IMPOSSIBLE if you cant let mmo mature a bit go back to WoW...

 

Really? Copying any of the myriad of useful mmos of the last decade was just so hard that they needed to make an absolute mess?

 

In their entire development and beta phases they were completely unable to code or figure out how to adjust a ui?

 

Every single mmo has been asked the same thing. To be simple and user friendly. Instead we get a complicated mess of an auction house that can't even browse by slot type, something the most basic of mmo's can accomplish. And we get a ui that can't even track your teammates health, tab targeting is a mess, and you can't click target anything with any degree of success.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Hammerreborn

[SuperomegaOP]

and expecting a new mmo to have all features of an mmo has been out for 7 years is just dumb... is NO way a new mmo can produce content and all features of an mmo has had time and money to put into something over 7 years its IMPOSSIBLE if you cant let mmo mature a bit go back to WoW...

 

im not talking about content... im talking about utility of the mmo and the overall polish of it

 

read through some peoples examples and such... im not so good when it comes to giving supporting details in my writing.

[Tarka]

WoW has no content at end game. What do people do after they killed Deathwing in LFR? Everyone has killed Deathwing now. What do Wow players do for the next year? Nothing.

 

WoW end game content is overated, because a new level 85 is going straight to Dragon Soul.

 

Well, Bioware have previously said that they have an "aggressive post launch content strategy". We'll see just how agressive it really is in the coming few months.

 

Personally I think Blizzard have been lazy. They spent so much time and manpower faffing with the gameworld and change it in accordance with what happened in Cataclysm, Starcraft 2, Titan and other projects, that they ran out to actually implement a decent expansion. They've spread themselves too thin. They even had to rip out a portion of the features of the Cata expansion before it released.

 

And now they are paying the price for it.

 

Which proves yet again, that it doesn't matter how good your previous successes were, you can always fail to get things right with your next one.

 

In my opinion, Bioware needs to deal with SWTOR's "issues" before they become a list of reasons not to subscribe. Irrespective of how much better the game is compared to WoW (or any other MMO) was at launch. People don't much care about what WoW was like at launch. They care what WoW is like NOW, to what SWTOR is like NOW.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Tarka