Balance of tactical flashpoints

[lightSaberAddiCt]

But since Group Finder can't match people up with equally skilled group members, why should people even waste their time with tacticals?

 

You can say, "Nobody says you have to queue or even do FPs," which is true, but less people queuing = longer queue times. The purpose of Tacticals ... the intent ... is to get more players to do something as a group, to get people familiar with the content, to help them become better players. The purpose is not to frustrate players and deter them from participating in group content.

 

Balance ...

 

As I have said, the group finderis like a box of chocolates, you dont knowwhat you are going to get. Thatis ANY groupfinder, in ANY game. But tacticals do not need to be nerfed anymore, you can use the word balance, but that seems to be what your shooting for. Players are responsible for their own ability.

[BRKMSN]

Tacticals have never been nerfed, but 4.0 came and bolstered them all to 65 and replaced the story modes where there used to be story modes. Basically, there is no "novice" choice with the exception of the few solo mode ones. Tacticals have actually been made more difficult due to being bolstered to 65. The old tacticals used to bolster to lvl 55 and the story modes ... well they were capped at their level.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Tacticals have never been nerfed, but 4.0 came and bolstered them all to 65 and replaced the story modes where there used to be story modes. Basically, there is no "novice" choice with the exception of the few solo mode ones. Tacticals have actually been made more difficult due to being bolstered to 65. The old tacticals used to bolster to lvl 55 and the story modes ... well they were capped at their level.

 

If you want a story mode, get a group, goto instance. The GF is what it is. The tacticals overall are fine for the majority. Dont see anything changing anytime soon.

Edited July 3, 2016 by lightSaberAddiCt

[BRKMSN]

If you want a story mode, get a group, goto instance. The GF is what it is. The tacticals overall are fine for the majority. Dont see anything changing anytime soon.

 

from: http://www.swtor.com/blog/operations-and-flashpoints-fallen-empire

 

"Next, most of our Story Mode Flashpoints have been converted to Tactical, meaning you can play them at any level between 10 and 65! These Flashpoints also bolster your character, so you never have to worry about being under-geared or under-leveled, and can play with friends of varying levels."

 

Story mode is gone and Tacticals were intended to be easy to play through with a group of casual players. Currently, Tatcticals are "fine" for experienced and/or balanced (roles) groups, but not for groups mixed with inexperienced players or under level / under-geared players.

 

You may be right that things may not change soon, but that might have more to do with threads like this being in a discussion forum instead of the suggestion forum. I'm not sure if these topics (in this forum) get as much attention as that forum by the devs.

Edited July 4, 2016 by BRKMSN

[benficakungfu]

from: http://www.swtor.com/blog/operations-and-flashpoints-fallen-empire

 

"Next, most of our Story Mode Flashpoints have been converted to Tactical, meaning you can play them at any level between 10 and 65! These Flashpoints also bolster your character, so you never have to worry about being under-geared or under-leveled, and can play with friends of varying levels."

 

Story mode is gone and Tacticals were intended to be easy to play through with a group of casual players. Currently, Tatcticals are "fine" for experienced and/or balanced (roles) groups, but not for groups mixed with inexperienced players or under level / under-geared players.

 

You may be right that things may not change soon, but that might have more to do with threads like this being in a discussion forum instead of the suggestion forum. I'm not sure if these topics (in this forum) get as much attention as that forum by the devs.

i was doing LvD expert achiev and i can tell you manaan is out of wack as is jos and girl on blood hunt, thankfully theres is a solo option...

[TEDHARVARD]

There's always a guy. A group of people are having a problem and he comes on and says, "Well, 'I' don't have that problem. Don't know what all the fuss is about. If you did it like 'ME', there wouldn't be a problem."

 

If you don't have the problem, then the thread doesn't apply to you.

 

Move along. Go brag on yourself somewhere else, Mr. Awesome.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

There's always a guy. A group of people are having a problem and he comes on and says, "Well, 'I' don't have that problem. Don't know what all the fuss is about. If you did it like 'ME', there wouldn't be a problem."

 

If you don't have the problem, then the thread doesn't apply to you.

 

Move along. Go brag on yourself somewhere else, Mr. Awesome.

 

There is no group of people, there is one person complaining about tacticals. So if your not going to add something to the discussion, then how about you move along and stand on your soupbox somewhere else. Oh wait, that wouldnt give you your special attention, of how cool you are, now does it.

[BRKMSN]

Actually, there are many, many people having problems with Tacticals right now. All you have to do is Queue with groupfinder. More often than not, you will be a replacement for someone that quit the group you join after they have wiped a couple times. Personally, I don't believe this is "working as intended" based on the developers' description of Tacticals for 4.0.

 

However, we are all entitled to our opinion on the matter and should participate in these types of discussions. All sides should be considered and if changes are made later, hopefully they find the best "middle ground." Content shouldn't be too easy, nor should stuff be too hard (on average) for stuff that doesn't offer high end rewards --- especially when there is a HM version of said content.

 

Perhaps if we capped enemy NPCs at lvl 62 or 63 on Tacticals, it would be enough of a difference to help get them in line with where the Devs intended them to be on a challenge level.

[Khevar]

Actually, there are many, many people having problems with Tacticals right now.

While I'm sure you've had poor experiences with tactical FPs through the group finder, that hasn't been my experience.

 

I queue for FPs while leveling every single time I log in. 9 out of 10 groups go fine for me. This is on Shadowlands and Harbinger (cannot speak to other servers at the moment).

 

Note that "go fine" includes problems sometimes and the occasional wipe. I'm not expecting to faceroll with a pug. It happens, but not very often. Faceroll is what happens when you play solo content in this game. It doesn't need to appear in group content as well.

[Aaramis]

While I'm sure you've had poor experiences with tactical FPs through the group finder, that hasn't been my experience.

 

I queue for FPs while leveling every single time I log in. 9 out of 10 groups go fine for me. This is on Shadowlands and Harbinger (cannot speak to other servers at the moment).

 

Note that "go fine" includes problems sometimes and the occasional wipe. I'm not expecting to faceroll with a pug. It happens, but not very often. Faceroll is what happens when you play solo content in this game. It doesn't need to appear in group content as well.

 

As noted in a previous post, most FPs aren't too bad. It's just a few in particular that tend to be pretty unforgiving for lower levels who may not have all of their abilities yet, especially the defensive ones.

If you haven't run Maelstrom (Repub only) or Blood Hunt, then you probably haven't encountered what everyone is griping about.

[midianlord]

Really, they should bring back the old story-mode level-brackets for the tac flashpoints.

 

Because there are instances that clearly were never intended for a level 20 to go into, or even a level 50, especially some of the later ones that were never intended to be "one-size-fits-all."

 

Once you reach level 56+, then you get the option to queue for all of them with Bolster, with bolster rallying you up to 65 in the usual manner.

 

'Course, that might put a damper on EAWare's ease of content-rehashing, and that simply won't do, now will it.

 

That should solve the problem just fine, assuming the people in the instances actually know how to play. That latter, I'm afraid is something that EAWare can't do much about, that's on us, the player-base.

[Vhaegrant]

I've not done Tactical FPs in some time (think back to when Prelude to SoR first came out).

I've had to delve back into tacticals for the DvL event.

 

They are not fit for purpose.

Or, possibly they are if the purpose is to frustrate and turn new players away from group content

 

Why would you allow 10-65 to mix together in the same selection pool!?

 

I'm having several issues with 'Depths of Manaan'.

 

The most significant is that it won't register as having been completed in the DvL Flashpoint Expert (Champion Level) achievement.

 

Then there is the long wait in the queue for a specific Tac FP.

 

Then there is the group finder putting in 4 DPS spread across 20-65. Twice now I've been lucky enough to get a tac FP to pop with a healer in the line up, even luckier the first time as they were paired with a Tank. Unfortunately although we got through this run without a full wipe my character died a couple of times (don't know if this was the reason it didn't recognize in the achievements). All the other runs have failed at the second boss.

[ekimmak]

Rather than making everything level 65 and expecting raw stats to compensate, they should have made tactical flashpoints scale overlevelled people down.

 

It's what they do for planets, so why not where people actually needed it?

[annabethchase]

Tacticals are easy as it is, sorry the bosses arent 1 hit kills like story mobs. But myself and a guildy jusg easily 2 manned a tactical FE, in our mid 20s, with trash gear and 2 comps. 1 affection lvl 1 and the other affection 8.

 

So no I disagree, tacticals are fine as they are.

 

companions are better than the average player. Try it again with 3 random players.

[annabethchase]

I'm having several issues with 'Depths of Manaan'.

 

The most significant is that it won't register as having been completed in the DvL Flashpoint Expert (Champion Level) achievement.

 

Can't you just do the solo version for that? I shudder to imagine having to do those with a bunch of level 20 somethings.

[Khevar]

If you haven't run Maelstrom (Repub only) or Blood Hunt, then you probably haven't encountered what everyone is griping about.

I have run it since 4.0 dropped, although but not in the last few weeks.

 

Has something changed on it? Or are people simply unfamiliar with the mechanics?

 

The earlier post seems to refer to the Colonel Daksh fight. Early on in the life of this game (before people could be overleveled for that particular flashpoint), it was always vitally important to duck behind the crates during his laser optic phase. I've had plenty of one-or-two-shots during that fight whenever someone would fudge the LoS.

 

Rescaling it to 65 seems to have brought back some of the earlier importance of that mechanic.

 

As a case in point, when I ran that particular flashpoint with some newbies a couple of months ago, 3/4 of the group promptly died the first time he had his laser optics out. A brief explanation of the mechanics in chat, then another go at it. That time one of the group members died, but the remaining three were able to finish the fight.

 

YMMV.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Khevar

[ekimmak]

I have run it since 4.0 dropped, although but not in the last few weeks.

 

Has something changed on it? Or are people simply unfamiliar with the mechanics?

 

The earlier post seems to refer to the Colonel Daksh fight. Early on in the life of this game (before people could be overleveled for that particular flashpoint), it was always vitally important to duck behind the crates during his laser optic phase. I've had plenty of one-or-two-shots during that fight whenever someone would fudge the LoS.

 

Rescaling it to 65 seems to have brought back some of the earlier importance of that mechanic.

 

As a case in point, when I ran that particular flashpoint with some newbies a couple of months ago, 3/4 of the group promptly died the first time he had his laser optics out. A brief explanation of the mechanics in chat, then another go at it. That time one of the group members died, but the remaining three were able to finish the fight.

 

YMMV.

I'd argue that low levels shouldn't be going in, simply because they haven't gone through all the previous flashpoints which gradually make mechanics more important to pay attention to.

[BobFredJohn]

Note that "go fine" includes problems sometimes and the occasional wipe. I'm not expecting to faceroll with a pug. It happens, but not very often. Faceroll is what happens when you play solo content in this game. It doesn't need to appear in group content as well.

 

This is, I think the crux of the issue. Players don't like wiping, don't like difficult bits and especially don't like taking their time. Its an attitude of "this mission is supposed to be easy, so why should I bother learning my class".

 

They don't seem to realise the catch 22: the mission is easy once you know your class.

 

If I may also point out, hopefully without the backlash lightsaberaddict got, that I haven't had many issues with tfp's either. Its usually just simple little things like writing "does everybody know these boss mechanics?" before each boss pull or "<group member> you are the only person with a taunt, I know your dps but can you tank the bloke in mando raiders first boss."

 

Having said that I did recently have a mando raiders run with a group in which nobody had taunt and 2 of the group were brand new (not following kill order, breaking cc's, pulling at half health etc) and we cleared first boss mando easily, all I did was write "bloke will random aggro" (he wont, but he will aggro dump which will seem random) "so if hes on you move away from dogs." We pull and beat it with no issues.

 

If 4 dps go into a tfp and try and run as 4 separate people who happen to be in the same instance, they will fail. If they (I know its a cliché) work together its much easier.

Edited July 5, 2016 by BobFredJohn

[ekimmak]

This is, I think the crux of the issue. Players don't like wiping, don't like difficult bits and especially don't like taking their time.

 

I think it's more that people don't like wasting their time.

 

If a group wipes, it suggests they don't have their act together. If a group wipes several times, it's unlikely you're going to see the end.

 

Why waste time butting your head against a brick wall that's getting you nothing but repair bills when you could simply leave and do something with actual yield? There are no rewards for failure.

 

As someone who was trying and failing to solo tactical hammer station (didn't realize it lacked solo mode) I can say this with certainty.

[Tsetso]

The only TFP that needs to be rebalanced is the Blood Hunt. And only the fight with Jos and Valk. They need to move the kolto stations to the center of the platform and it'll be ok. As it is now it's either pray to the rng gods or you need trinity to be able to kill then without getting someone/everyone pushed off the platform.

[peter_plankskull]

The only TFP that needs to be rebalanced is the Blood Hunt. And only the fight with Jos and Valk. They need to move the kolto stations to the center of the platform and it'll be ok. As it is now it's either pray to the rng gods or you need trinity to be able to kill then without getting someone/everyone pushed off the platform.

 

Jos IMO hit's way to hard with whatever when he has with 10 stacks, that's the real kicker for me this fight. Valk is easy and such, the key is to grab the kolto right after you have been knocked back, once you learn that she is basically cake. Jos on the other hand still knocks the living day lights out of me if I sometimes mess up my mobility and I have full 220 set bonus and optimized. Only thing im missing is the 220 armoring and correct mod on the greaves, and my implants kind of suck being mk-4 and all, but if I mistime my "hold the line" its game over, especially if its a maul.

 

IMO I think the whole balancing is messed up, for veteran players its a complete and utter steam roll, for newbies its a wipe fest, throw that mix into together and the veterans carry the newbies, but theirs no place for them to learn.

[Jerba]

The earlier post seems to refer to the Colonel Daksh fight. Early on in the life of this game (before people could be overleveled for that particular flashpoint), it was always vitally important to duck behind the crates during his laser optic phase. I've had plenty of one-or-two-shots during that fight whenever someone would fudge the LoS.

We had the problem that immediately when we pulled the boss, the tank would drop to 20% health. This was before the laser eyes phase; the boss just dealt that much damage. We were able to get through by burst healing the tank, LoSing and using kolto stations but the tank died eventually and we had to do the remaining 10% of the boss without a tank.

 

Obviously, this was in low-level where the tank didn't have much in the way of DCD but we felt the damage output was too strong for a tactical boss.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Jerba

[Padabiene]

We had the problem that immediately when we pulled the boss, the tank would drop to 20% health. This was before the laser eyes phase; the boss just dealt that much damage. We were able to get through by burst healing the tank, LoSing and using kolto stations but the tank died eventually and we had to do the remaining 10% of the boss without a tank.

 

This. I did it two times last week and always ended up on the floor before we were even close to the laser eyes phase. I eventually switched my shadow to tank and ended up kiting him around the boxes the whole time while the (ranged) dps did their thing. That worked, but it was certainly easier before 4.0.

[Petnil]

Seems to me that it's bleeds/burns or whatever kind of internal damage that have scaled too strong. Tbh. i never felt the bleeds were scaled right since the stat crunch or whatever thing happened back in 2.0 (i think) It was just that the content overall was so easy that it wasn't much of an issue.

[Vhaegrant]

Can't you just do the solo version for that? I shudder to imagine having to do those with a bunch of level 20 somethings.

 

You can run it solo, but the issue is that it is not unlocking for me in solo or group. My initial run through was as they came in the prelude to Shadow of Revan. The only reason I saw there was an issue is because I went into the event tracker to see what FPs I needed to group up for to get done.

 

All of the FPs I could get done on solo I have soloed. I have been forced to group for a handful, but as they tended to be from the original games lower level FPs (Hammer Station, Mandalorian Raiders, etc) you don't seem to be at such a disadvantage for not having a full rotation or energy balancing.

 

After a pleasant conversation with a Customer Service rep they advised me to try a group as people were reporting that unlocked it for them. That is the only reason I've ventured into it in a group.

 

Your shudders are not misplaced. What is a fairly trivial solo run becomes a nightmare in group, the first and third bosses are tedious to the extreme forcing you to run through the fight mechanic far too many times, the second boss!?

Edited July 5, 2016 by Vhaegrant