Please Don't do it again - Dark & Light event - PLEASE DON'T!

[peter_plankskull]

There is an incentive to play while waiting for season 2. That is a good enough reason to me.

 

Not everyone is so easily fooled and easily motivated by redoing everything we have worked for, this time only for a shiny.

[DarthEnrique]

I see Squirrel has got to you by that last comment... why not try to refute his points instead of just dismissing them as "meaningless rodent sarcasm."

 

That's pretty much anyone to him cause he doesn't have anything better then to be a troll trust me I know. He enjoys and probably gets his jollies off to it for all we know. Best and safest bet is report him and put him on Ingore and let BW deal with him, though they obviously aren't doing a good job handling this game so don't get your hopes up...

 

Not everyone is so easily fooled and easily motivated by redoing everything we have worked for, this time only for a shiny.

 

This.

Edited June 25, 2016 by DarthEnrique

[Lord_Kismet]

I can see where your coming from Savej, but your not being brave enough or looking at the big picture.

 

It is not my Intention to "Make them feel bad". I have been in graphic design for 25 years, i would NEVER insult my clients in this way by excluding them or forcing them to purchase additional items to get what new clients already get. It just is not a smart business move, it insults people, they will feel slighted. Of any field Design is one where you have constant and honest feedback. Be an adult and be able to listen to it and improve. I mean that in the most respectful way.

 

Some Suggestions Off the top of my head I could say:

1) Postpone and apologize. Gain some good will back.

2) They need to give Long time Players/Subbs the extra Characters slots of free.

3) Retro actively give vet players their due. Let what they have already go toward these items.

4) When designing an event, Think about what effect it will have on your player base. Try it on the test server first and request feedback from veterans. Don't assume that you know everything or "Whats best" for players. Feedback is the life blood of any great company.

 

People do not want play through HUNDREDS OF hours again for this. Its just not a smart idea, it doesn't include vet players. You come out with content only to penalize & insult long time players.

 

Btw I am being mature, Polite and most importantly honest about the situation. Telling people "If they don't like it, they can leave" is childish and immature. Maybe take your own advice?

 

Ignoring a problem, doesn't fix it. You have to have the courage to stand up and say "hey I like what you guys have been doing (and I do or I would of not spent hundreds of hours bringing my members back to SWTOR) & I don't want to see you loose a massive ton of veteran/Subbed players because I was not willing to tell you the truth or for you to be open minded enough to listen"

 

Here's hoping!

 

- Kismet

 

They are trying something new. Do we want them to feel bad and stop trying things and lose all enthusiasm for this game or do we want to try to take a breath and appreciate some parts of what they are able to produce for us? Or at least not blow up at everything you weren't expecting and/or don't happen to like? Seriously, BW people are not sitting around a table trying to figure out different ways to slap customers in the face. Would you rather they just threw all this into another cartel pack and made us pay $ for it? Tolerance and patience go a long way sometimes.

 

The only thing these explosive tantrums do is reduce the chances of us getting anything new in the future. They make the people that happen to like these things second guess themselves and they drag fencewalkers onto the dark side of the mud-slinging as well.

 

If you don't want anything more to do with BW there's an easy solution. If you have ideas about events or how they should be working harder on new operations, there are forums for those things - but obviously BW's hands are at least partially tied at the moment and a lot of their resources are still working on chapters, next season and maybe other things we can't be told about yet.

 

If you don't like the event by all means say so but try to be mature and polite and I promise your chances of being read will be greater than 0 (this thread is at 0, btw).

[RaiderMid]

Not everyone is so easily fooled and easily motivated by redoing everything we have worked for, this time only for a shiny.

 

Compared to the alternative? Not sticking around to wait for the next season?

[DarthEnrique]

Compared to the alternative? Not sticking around to wait for the next season?

 

Omg! So they go away, keep their sub running and come back for season 2 nothing new is it? Or some just stick around and do the events that come out (Gree, Rak, etc.) or conquest or heroic/daily runs, ops runs, fps. Yes I understand some of it gets old but it's not like there is nothing to do there's plenty even if it is old...They do not need an event for old content... and if they are going to insist upon it the least they can do is make it retroactive...

Edited June 25, 2016 by DarthEnrique

[Rolodome]

They are trying something new. Do we want them to feel bad and stop trying things and lose all enthusiasm for this game or do we want to try to take a breath and appreciate some parts of what they are able to produce for us? Or at least not blow up at everything you weren't expecting and/or don't happen to like? Seriously, BW people are not sitting around a table trying to figure out different ways to slap customers in the face. Would you rather they just threw all this into another cartel pack and made us pay $ for it? Tolerance and patience go a long way sometimes.

 

The only thing these explosive tantrums do is reduce the chances of us getting anything new in the future. They make the people that happen to like these things second guess themselves and they drag fencewalkers onto the dark side of the mud-slinging as well.

 

If you don't want anything more to do with BW there's an easy solution. If you have ideas about events or how they should be working harder on new operations, there are forums for those things - but obviously BW's hands are at least partially tied at the moment and a lot of their resources are still working on chapters, next season and maybe other things we can't be told about yet.

 

If you don't like the event by all means say so but try to be mature and polite and I promise your chances of being read will be greater than 0 (this thread is at 0, btw).

Oh great, the "be nice to developers" post. Look, developers are usually great people. Passionate and awesome individuals who give everything to build what they hope will be amazing games. But developers are not the same thing as "the company."

 

It's like saying, don't criticize Starbucks because you'll upset their baristas. The problem is rarely the developers themselves. It's the pressures/doctrine they are getting from management, corporate, etc. Every once in a while, there is a dev who really is just a piece of work, but that seems to be the exception to the rule.

 

So by all means, defend unjustified criticism directed at the developers themselves, but criticizing the company's practices is not the same thing, unless we're talking about an indie company run by the same people who make the games.

 

Your not seeing the big picture. This is the same thing GW2 did to people with HOT expansion. It Ticks people off, they don't want to play. Its like giving your player base the finger.

 

My members in GW2 after the HOT expansion, just left. They didn't want to play anymore because the lost "Trust" in the gaming company. This is exactly whats going to happen here. You don't insult your player base and expect them to stick around, its just super short sighted, just to save face. They need to admit their mistake and they will get much more respect for that then doing what they have done in the past and Act like they know it all.

 

- Kismet

I was there for this, sadly. I've no idea how GW2 is doing right now in numbers, but even though it took them months to backpedal on HOT, they eventually did some backpedaling, so clearly it hurt them. Point being... take note, BW. You are not wearing impenetrable profit armor. Sometimes stuff really does hit deep. Take a little time to make the right call by all means, but don't expect the problem to just go away and realize that the sooner you make a show of good faith, the better off you're going to be.

[Sithsorc]

Hehe, I have not heard the term "Rodent" since the early days of computers. haha thats what we called "Trolls" in those days.

 

I think some people feel obligated to defend Bioware/EA. Don't worry they are adults, they can take a little constructive feedback, hopefully and make Adult choices to admit when they made a mistake, before its too late.

 

That is the difference between and child and a Adult. A child will try to divert blame or act like nothing is wrong. An adult will say "You know what, my bad, sorry everyone, lets fix this."

 

Sadly when you try to show your point, the white knights (Noobs, and squeakers) try and throw it off track. White Knights are game killers...

[Lord_Kismet]

Extremely well written Rolodome. I totally agree.

 

 

Oh great, the "be nice to developers" post. Look, developers are usually great people. Passionate and awesome individuals who give everything to build what they hope will be amazing games. But developers are not the same thing as "the company."

 

It's like saying, don't criticize Starbucks because you'll upset their baristas. The problem is rarely the developers themselves. It's the pressures/doctrine they are getting from management, corporate, etc. Every once in a while, there is a dev who really is just a piece of work, but that seems to be the exception to the rule.

 

So by all means, defend unjustified criticism directed at the developers themselves, but criticizing the company's practices is not the same thing, unless we're talking about an indie company run by the same people who make the games.

 

 

I was there for this, sadly. I've no idea how GW2 is doing right now in numbers, but even though it took them months to backpedal on HOT, they eventually did some backpedaling, so clearly it hurt them. Point being... take note, BW. You are not wearing impenetrable profit armor. Sometimes stuff really does hit deep. Take a little time to make the right call by all means, but don't expect the problem to just go away and realize that the sooner you make a show of good faith, the better off you're going to be.

[Ratajack]

The problem is that literally 100% of the player base as of today can't participate in it with the characters they spent all this time building. I would prefer the rewards being retroactive, but I may budge a little and would be okay redoing SOME of the content on our MAIN characters.

 

There is a reason for that, even if some players do not agree with that reason. I do not know what that reason is, but I can hazard a guess.

 

While veterans do have some advantages over new players, the playing field is much closer to level the way that BW has set the rules for this event. Players must actually <GASP> earn those new shiny rewards by participating in the event and completing the required tasks DURING the event, not simply having credit for those tasks handed to them for something they did years, or even months, ago.

 

BW is hardly the first game company to implement new rewards that were not retroactive.

 

The real shame, IMO, is how many players are too averse to the effort required to actually EARN those rewards under the rules for the event, instead feeling that they are ENTITLED to have those new rewards simply handed to them for something which they did years, or months, ago and for which they have already been rewarded.

 

 

 

 

 

I see Squirrel has got to you by that last comment... why not try to refute his points instead of just dismissing them as "meaningless rodent sarcasm."

 

Gotten to me?

 

Not really, I find his sarcasm humorous, but ultimately meaningless as an argument for changing the rules of this event, or anything other than simple humor.

[Costello]

I support this.

 

Don't treat your veteran players like this, loyalty should count for something. I appreciate that loyalty to a computer game or company is an odd idea, but its the reason people heard long ago Star Wars + Bioware = Great. Its also the same reason Kotor stuff has been so often used. Its brand loyalty to Bioware, brand loyalty to Star Wars and Brand loyalty to Kotor.

[gabigool]

Seriously, BW people are not sitting around a table trying to figure out different ways to slap customers in the face.

 

Literally? Perhaps not. But they are certainly sitting around a table trying to figure out how to try to fool us into buying into the idea that four year old content can be perceived as relevant.

 

At the end of the day is there a difference in what we actually get, as players, in either situation? No.

 

Tolerance and patience go a long way sometimes.

 

As someone who plays the game solely for Operations - i find this cute.

[Sithsorc]

There is a reason for that, even if some players do not agree with that reason. I do not know what that reason is, but I can hazard a guess.

 

While veterans do have some advantages over new players, the playing field is much closer to level the way that BW has set the rules for this event. Players must actually <GASP> earn those new shiny rewards by participating in the event and completing the required tasks DURING the event, not simply having credit for those tasks handed to them for something they did years, or even months, ago.

 

BW is hardly the first game company to implement new rewards that were not retroactive.

 

The real shame, IMO, is how many players are too averse to the effort required to actually EARN those rewards under the rules for the event, instead feeling that they are ENTITLED to have those new rewards simply handed to them for something which they did years, or months, ago and for which they have already been rewarded.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gotten to me?

 

Not really, I find his sarcasm humorous, but ultimately meaningless as an argument for changing the rules of this event, or anything other than simple humor.

 

Having done this game with 35 toons on 2 servers (28 are level 65) perhaps you can see why doing more toons are more of a job...lets see kill mobs smash spacebar for story skips. Hmmm lotza fun. NOT!

[Ratajack]

Hehe, I have not heard the term "Rodent" since the early days of computers. haha thats what we called "Trolls" in those days.

 

I think some people feel obligated to defend Bioware/EA. Don't worry they are adults, they can take a little constructive feedback, hopefully and make Adult choices to admit when they made a mistake, before its too late.

 

That is the difference between and child and a Adult. A child will try to divert blame or act like nothing is wrong. An adult will say "You know what, my bad, sorry everyone, lets fix this."

 

Children will also throw temper tantrums when they do not get what they want in the hopes that the adults will cave and give them what they want in order to stop those temper tantrums.

 

Adults will accept that they do not always get what they want.

[MightyFiredemon]

I get that people want something new to do, I get bored with doing the same things over and over again. But I also like this event and understand that yes it is for new players or those that like to make new toons all the time. Does it suck that only toons created on June 28 can participate: Yes. I enjoy this game and support it even with it's flaws but I have fun. A new operation or new pvp content would have been better but this is what we got. Given EA's track record it could have been so much worse.

 

Though what do I know, people will complain and complain no matter what is given to them.

[Ratajack]

Having done this game with 35 toons on 2 servers (28 are level 65) perhaps you can see why doing more toons are more of a job...lets see kill mobs smash spacebar for story skips. Hmmm lotza fun. NOT!

 

This is why participation in the event ultimately boils down to a personal choice. Which is more important to the player?

 

Are the rewards important enough to participate and do again something which they have done before?

 

Is it more important to the player to be able to do something which they may personally find more enjoyable?

[Rolodome]

Extremely well written Rolodome. I totally agree.

Thanks dude. Much respect to your guild leading efforts. Was never a guild leader myself, but pretty much one step removed from being one for a good year or two. It's a tough job.

[DarthEnrique]

Having done this game with 35 toons on 2 servers (28 are level 65) perhaps you can see why doing more toons are more of a job...lets see kill mobs smash spacebar for story skips. Hmmm lotza fun. NOT!

 

Don't feed into the troll, he knows not what he thinks nor does he care. He only cares about himself and getting under people's skin cause he gets his jollies off to it. Just report and Ingore and your life will be bliss.

[Rolodome]

Children will also throw temper tantrums when they do not get what they want in the hopes that the adults will cave and give them what they want in order to stop those temper tantrums.

 

Adults will accept that they do not always get what they want.

Well, yeah... adults will accept that they don't always get what they want. And then they will take their precious money and time elsewhere. But some adults will attempt to negotiate first, to see if things can be mended. There's nothing childish about trying to resolve a situation without the end result being to everyone's displeasure. Compromise is a staple of adult behavior.

 

There are also different types of acceptance and giving in. Giving in to your boss making you work an extra hour is generally an adult thing to do. Giving in to a company that you go to for entertainment treating you poorly is more in the realm of letting yourself be used and abused. We can disagree all day on what "poor treatment" is, but the fact remains... if you feel you are being treated poorly on a regular basis, sticking through that is just putting yourself in an abuse cycle. In that context, it's less about whether you are objectively being treated poorly and more about what your reaction is. In other words, if you believe yourself to be getting **** on, accepting it and letting it continue only conditions you to let yourself be **** on more in the future.

 

If you don't believe yourself to be getting **** on, or find that the moments of feeling **** on are vastly outweighed in proportion by feeling respected and appreciated, then yeah, accepting a few unawesome moments is usually going to be perfectly healthy.

[DenariusJay]

For me personally, its just the idea of shelving and not playing the characters I'm already attached too. It's a disconnect... I don't want to progress with any of my current toons knowing that I could be spending this time progressing through the event doing the same damn stuff. Like right now I'm finding it hard to play chpt 13 on an alt because it's like whats the point, next week I will be back to the same spot, because of event and all...

 

I want to do the event with characters that I already have and love, not with new characters that I don't care about.

 

Oh well, I will be chipping away at the event rewards, I'm not gonna overreact and cancel subs and uninstall the game like I hear others doing - that seems like a extreme overreaction.

[Billupsat]

Hehe, I have not heard the term "Rodent" since the early days of computers. haha thats what we called "Trolls" in those days.

 

I think some people feel obligated to defend Bioware/EA. Don't worry they are adults, they can take a little constructive feedback, hopefully and make Adult choices to admit when they made a mistake, before its too late.

 

That is the difference between and child and a Adult. A child will try to divert blame or act like nothing is wrong. An adult will say "You know what, my bad, sorry everyone, lets fix this."

 

Its only a mistake from a certain point of view, and we have no way of knowing if the forums are an accurate measure of the playbase's opinion. Not to say that it isn't accurate, but its not a reliable scale.

 

I've also noticed you keep saying things like 'an adult would do this,' or something similar in a lot of posts on this thread. Not all adults prescribe to specific rules or codes to what an adult does or doesn't do when they've made a mistake. So, it comes off (to me anyway) as you saying, 'this is what I would do if I made a mistake, and I feel bioware made a mistake and should do this,' which is a little condescending. Both to Bioware and the adults reading this forum who don't agree with the sentiment in general. I know as a relatively new adult I have, and probably never will say the highlighted quote above. Its a pride thing

 

Also, 99% of the time people (and companies) will only realize they've made a mistake well after its been made, once they've gotten some distance from it. So, say after this event is over, Bioware will (Hypothetically, of course) go 'Man, we could have done that better,' and know how to implement things differently in the future. Even then though, I wouldn't expect a gold post apologizing except maybe in marketing for a hypothetical future event of similar nature.

 

So really, IMHO this well earned complaining is - if the past is any indication - going to amount to nothing, nothing will change and all its going to do is clog up the first page of the forums for x amount of time before people either a) unsub, b) move on to the next thing to rage over, or c) give up. That's the way it always goes here, time and time again.

[Rolodome]

Also, 99% of the time people (and companies) will only realize they've made a mistake well after its been made, once they've gotten some distance from it. So, say after this event is over, Bioware will (Hypothetically, of course) go 'Man, we could have done that better,' and know how to implement things differently in the future. Even then though, I wouldn't expect a gold post apologizing except maybe in marketing for a hypothetical future event of similar nature.

 

So really, IMHO this well earned complaining is - if the past is any indication - going to amount to nothing, nothing will change and all its going to do is clog up the first page of the forums for x amount of time before people either a) unsub, b) move on to the next thing to rage over, or c) give up. That's the way it always goes here, time and time again.

Well, there are companies who sometimes handle situations like these with care, in a timely manner. But if EA/BW is not one of them, then I'm not sure why I'm here, tbh. I mean, if that's their standard practice, that's their standard practice. I just know from experience that it's not impossible for people/companies to acknowledge and adapt quickly. That includes AAA game companies.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is, though I buy that EA/BW doesn't usually do much, I don't buy your 99% number at all.

 

I would argue, in fact, that with an issue like this, compiling some feedback and reading out of explicit explanations where they went wrong is not that hard or time-consuming. What's usually the brick wall is the difficulty of shifting development resources over to solving problems that weren't on the schedule. Which is why the best solutions to problems like these (when companies make an effort) typically come in the form of "show of good faith" gifts, or extremely minor tweaks to a few percentages in the code, that in some way alleviate what the problem was in the first place.

 

In this case, the most straightforward would probably be something like handing out a free character slot or two. The kind of thing that shouldn't require much time, if their systems are built well. If their codebase is Frankenstein incarnate, that's another matter, but if it were the case, the least they could do is come out and admit it, so people better understand why it's so hard to be reactive.

 

Edit: I don't know if they've ever done free cartel item promotions, but if they haven't, then perhaps even simpler (with their existing systems) would be to do the character slot sale as planned and then a cartel coin grant, equivalent to the cost of one or two slots. This has the added benefit of saying: "Even if your problem wasn't a character slot, we still care about you." IMO, it'd be a small price to pay to renew peoples' sense of loyalty. Ultimately, it would cost them next to nothing since cartel coins are virtual currency and it'd get more people engaged in the event from the get-go.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Rolodome

[Ratajack]

Well, yeah... adults will accept that they don't always get what they want. And then they will take their precious money and time elsewhere. But some adults will attempt to negotiate first, to see if things can be mended. There's nothing childish about trying to resolve a situation without the end result being to everyone's displeasure. Compromise is a staple of adult behavior.

 

There are also different types of acceptance and giving in. Giving in to your boss making you work an extra hour is generally an adult thing to do. Giving in to a company that you go to for entertainment treating you poorly is more in the realm of letting yourself be used and abused. We can disagree all day on what "poor treatment" is, but the fact remains... if you feel you are being treated poorly on a regular basis, sticking through that is just putting yourself in an abuse cycle. In that context, it's less about whether you are objectively being treated poorly and more about what your reaction is. In other words, if you believe yourself to be getting **** on, accepting it and letting it continue only conditions you to let yourself be **** on more in the future.

 

If you don't believe yourself to be getting **** on, or find that the moments of feeling **** on are vastly outweighed in proportion by feeling respected and appreciated, then yeah, accepting a few unawesome moments is usually going to be perfectly healthy.

 

If Johnny feels he is getting **** upon, then as you said, Johnny needs to make that personal decision as to whether the "good times" outweigh the "bad times". If the "bad times" outweigh the "good times" then Johnny should definitely move on. I would not fault him for doing so.

 

However, if Johnny feels he is getting **** upon and throws a temper tantrum demanding that the "guilty party who is ***ing on him give him what he wants, that is another thing entirely.

[Andryah]

Hi Bioware & EA,

 

I have spent the last 8 months convincing my members to return to SWTOR. They are mostly now Subbed with a few on FTP.

 

Quick backstory for perspective: We started at pre-launch of SWTOR > Got to 300 members > I went to the guild summit > you guys tanked the game > All but a few of my members unsubbed & left the game, including myself, despite enjoying the game. I go where my members want to go.

 

Fast forward 3 years later Nov 2015:

- The few still in SWTOR: "Hey Kismet they really are improving SWTOR we should give it another try."

- Kismet: "Ok! Wow, they have really added a ton of content & stuff to do. I'll see if members want to play again"

- 8 months of recalling members to SWTOR

 

Now here we go again... You are TOTALLY TICKING OFF the community of players. APOLOGIZE for a poor idea and immediately cancel this event and rethink it. People are Un-Subbing & Leaving the game. They are Heated and Hot about this. Are you guys trying to tank the game? That is the only reason why you would force existing, invested, Subbed players to get 8 more slots to do this event.

 

Sometimes YOU make a mistake. Own up to it and cancel this ASAP & Apologize, maybe some small token reward to loyal supporters of the game. Thats what a Man would do, "MAN UP" and admit ones mistakes.

 

Your team has worked TOO HARD at adding content only to be stubborn "We know whats best". Believe me you don't because you would not of done this event if you did. Listen to your community and this will blow over and you can revamp the event to suit new & Long time players.

 

I love what you have done in the game. Please, Please, Please learn from past mistakes. DON'T DO THIS!

 

- Kismet

Leader & Founder, Kismet, Ring of Destiny

One of the longest running gaming guilds: 14+ years of fun, laughter & Teamwork.

http://www.kismetbp.com

 

Please Up-Vote/post on this thread so they can see this. Thanks!

 

Personally, I would not base such an assessment and demand statement on a transitory event designed to fill in the summer slump. It would be better IMO to wait and see what 5.0 actually is before making such declarations.

 

The event is filler, which some will do and some will not. 5.0 will be a SWTOR expac... details yet to be released... but judging by the apparent timeline of the event... I expect we see 5.0 sometime in October and they start teasing out information in July.

[Rolodome]

If Johnny feels he is getting **** upon, then as you said, Johnny needs to make that personal decision as to whether the "good times" outweigh the "bad times". If the "bad times" outweigh the "good times" then Johnny should definitely move on. I would not fault him for doing so.

 

However, if Johnny feels he is getting **** upon and throws a temper tantrum demanding that the "guilty party who is ***ing on him give him what he wants, that is another thing entirely.

I more or less agree.

 

Though I'm not sure we'd always agree on the definition of a temper tantrum and a demand. Plus some posts are very much on the borderline, due to emotions running high (a mixture of reasoned attempts at negotiation/compromise and stuff that sounds demanding or angry).

 

I don't think it's fair to throw out the baby with the bathwater and throw a person under the bus because the two are mixed. In cases where no reasoned attempts at negotiation/compromise, or even just reasoned explanation of one's grievances, are present, then yeah, I guess go to town. But those are also the people least likely to listen to criticism, so there isn't much point to it.

[Fallahmain]

Looking forward to this event, definitely gonna do it, excited for it! Sad to see so many Veterans complaining over something they are not required to do at all, but that's the way it goes I guess. Personally, even though I have been in this game for going on three years now, I like this idea. Why you may ask? Well, that's simple. I have never had much luck playing as Republic characters. It just doesn't feel like my thing, but now, I have some motive and desire to level each class out, including the Republic. (Though granted I will be doing Imperial first.) So, I would like to say thank you to Bioware. Not all Veterans are angry at you for this, some of us appreciate the idea and effort you put into it, and I personally look forward to it.

 

Too those who may say, "But I am full on slots, but I just did a new character!" And other things to that effect, I must point this out. I was working on 4 new characters when they announced this. I had alot of credits invested in them, and was happy with them. However, I needed slots to do the event. Did I complain or gripe? Nope! I sucked it up, deleted the new characters I had made, and am now eagerly awaiting this event. The credits I spent on them? I'll earn them back. The time invested? I have plenty more where that came from. So good luck to all who participate, and good luck to all who do not!