Does the 4.5 nerf make sense?

[FleeceOfHades]

I'm a recently returned player (maybe two years or more away). This thread is not intended to cause any trolling or FOTM type discussions. I'm mostly just wanting to see if this nerf makes sense to other sage players. Having played a sage before I left and absolutely loving TK in pvp, I went this route when I came back. This was only to find that the class was extremely weak compared to what I remember. To be fair, the extra resource cost doesn't sound too bad as I haven't felt like resource management was even existent since coming back. However that's about the only upside of the class I've noticed.

 

After quite a bit of frustration, min/maxing, and learning some new rotations, I found that both seer and balance spec were marginally playable in WZ. In balance I have been topping damage, but knew the damage was inconsequential. The DoT spread maybe ticks away at the top 95% of several player's health bars in an area after a rotation. What matters of course is burst, utility, and staying power. In full exemplar gear, fully augmented, I finally made one or two solo kills in balance spec this week. All the while, I'm still the squishiest thing on the battlefield, almost always targeted/focused first. My mobility is so-so, I make do. My CC is so-so, I make do. My burst output is laughably not even close to most other classes. So with all this in mind, I've been re-rolling.

 

So my main concern isn't so much, "Why are we being nerfed?" . My question is more, "Why are we being nerfed when I feel like the class needs a serious buff?"

 

Thoughts?

[auroroavalor]

Unfortunately your experience is not reflective of the opinions of the majority of PVP'ers, and in this case they're correct. Nerfs were needed and absolutely justified.

[FleeceOfHades]

Unfortunately your experience is not reflective of the opinions of the majority of PVP'ers, and in this case they're correct. Nerfs were needed and absolutely justified.

 

I wish I could say I understood. I remember when sorcs/sages were worth crying about. From a gameplay perspective, the sage fits three archetypes from another popular MMO. It can be a mage, a warlock, or a resto druid.

 

In the first category, it doesn't receive the tradeoff of insane ranged damage that it should for having extremely weak defense. Classes with much higher defense receive that.

 

In the second category, it feels like it's missing at least one extra DoT (whether single target or multiple) to pose any real threat.

 

In the third category, it feels fine. The healing is decent, but by no means better than other classes. I'm mostly just confused by the sentiment if anything.

[teclado]

My guess is that you have not played at level 65, correct?

[auroroavalor]

A poorly played Sorc healer will trump a good Merc/Op healer in PVP nine times out of ten.

 

DPS Sorcs have very good DCD's and can kite better then other ranged classes and have a heal to full god bubble, oh and when played correctly they produce immense DPS and should top the DPS boards every WZ.

[FleeceOfHades]

A poorly played Sorc healer will trump a good Merc/Op healer in PVP nine times out of ten.

 

DPS Sorcs have very good DCD's and can kite better then other ranged classes and have a heal to full god bubble, oh and when played correctly they produce immense DPS and should top the DPS boards every WZ.

 

As I said, I do top damage in wz's. The damage is meaningless though because the AoE dots do not burn more than 5 to 10% off of multiple targets. While this looks great on a board, it doesn't mean we're actually killing anyone.

 

In fact the only reason I happen to spread dots, is because it's an extra effect of one of my nukes. Otherwise I could care less about the mechanic. I'd gladly see the nerf remove the AoE dots altogether if they gave us more single-target damage, and a higher percentage on the life leech effects on that single target.

Edited May 31, 2016 by FleeceOfHades

[Sundragon]

As I said, I do top damage in wz's. The damage is meaningless though because the AoE dots do not burn more than 5 to 10% off of multiple targets. While this looks great on a board, it doesn't mean we're actually killing anyone.

 

In fact the only reason I happen to spread dots, is because it's an extra effect of one of my nukes. Otherwise I could care less about the mechanic. I'd gladly see the nerf remove the AoE dots altogether if they gave us more single-target damage, and a higher percentage on the life leech effects on that single target.

 

Then go play the other DPS spec. One is DOT based and one is more nuke based. If you don't care about the spreading of DOTs, and you believe they are ineffective, then go play the other spec.

[teclado]

I was trying to figure out if you have played at 65 or not. You mentioned full Exemplar gear, so that would mean 65 (assuming not a typo).

 

If Seer Sage is marginally playable, then the other two healers (Operative and Merc) would be completely un-playable. Sage/Sorc heals are far and away the best healer, not even close. Take a look at the leaderboards. Most of those Sorcs are healers. It got so bad that people would sometimes rage at anybody bold enough to play any healer other than Sorc. In regular warzones, Sage/Sorc healers have been wrecking the game since 4.0: Sorc Wars The Old Republic. Ever since they got Phase Walk, it was pretty much game over. If you think Sage healer is tough, try Commando healer for a change - no escape tools.

 

Madness is not a burst spec. It is a DoT pressure spec. Honestly, it sounds like you are trying to play it the wrong way. Here's what you should be doing: Affliction, Creeping Terror, Recklessness, Death Field (spread those DoTs), Force Leech, Force Lightning, Demolish (with Proc), Force Lightning, Lightning Strike (Proc). For utilities, you can take the one that allows you to use Force Leech while moving. That means that you only ever have to stop moving when using Force Lightning. And of course you get a massive and spammable AOE Lightning Storm. If somebody chases you, you can rely on bubble stun (utility), knockback root (utility), phase walk, Force Slow, Force Barrier, and self heal. You can't stand out in the open and expect to tank damage. You have to hide behind pillars, apply DoTs + Death Field + Demolish, retreat and heal yourself, repeat. It may not be your preferred play-style, but it is highly effective nonetheless. Your survivability comes from your escape tools, kiting, and self healing.

[FleeceOfHades]

Then go play the other DPS spec. One is DOT based and one is more nuke based. If you don't care about the spreading of DOTs, and you believe they are ineffective, then go play the other spec.

 

If you can find a Sage that hits 20-30K bursts on live with TK spec, you may convince me. The most I've managed with everything on CD is just below 16k, and that's very rare. (I'm almost right at +68% bonus from crit..formerly known as surge). I hit much higher super crits with the DoT spec.

 

Most crits in TK are in the 7 to 9k range. With current HP levels this is the equivalent of firing off a flashy BB gun.

 

Currently the classes hitting competitive numbers appear to be:

 

Jugg/Guardian

Assassin/Shadow

and both classes of the bounty Hunter / Trooper

Edited June 1, 2016 by FleeceOfHades

[FleeceOfHades]

Madness is not a burst spec. It is a DoT pressure spec.

 

I wish this were true. In other MMO's a DoT pressure class is a lot of fun to play. The way I view madness/balance right now is the DoTs are supplemental damage that give bonus to nukes on the target. Whereas a true DoT pressure spec, the nukes are inconvenient supplemental damage (think long activation time for that extra umph!)

[teclado]

Yeah, TK is really not that great. If you really want some good burst, consider the following specs:

Carnage Marauder / Combat Sentinel

AP Powertech / Tactics Vanguard

Marksman Sniper / Sharpshooter Gunslinger

Arsenal Merc / Gunnery Commando

 

Deception Assassin is really not as good as it used to be in terms of burst damage, Nor is Concealment Operative. Vengeance Jugg can do some good dps (mostly due to DoT spreading on Vengeful Slam), but not great burst damage. Rage Jugg has pretty good burst damage.

 

Fury Marauder / Concentration Sentinel is my personal favorite spec. It doesn't have quite as good burst damage as Carnage, but it's still pretty good. I like the playstyle offered by the 6 sec CC immunity from Gravity Vortex (after using Force Crush).

 

P.S. With Carnage, you won't really get 20K crits, but you will string together 15K+ crits in a short period of time, the result of which is really high damage per second in a small time window. For 20K+ single hits, I think only Arsenal Merc (heatseeker missile), Marskman Sniper (Ambush), and AP PT (Energy Burst) are going to do that.

 

P.P.S. It sounds like you prefer Republic side. Depending on your server, that may not be a good idea. The harbinger, for example, is extremely imp dominated. I prefer republic side, but have not really been able to play it for a long time without ripping my hair out in frustration. The games are so horribly 1-sided. The only decent games come from imp vs imp.

Edited June 1, 2016 by teclado

[sumquy]

the biggest problem with sorcs is the amount of escapes and "outs" that they have. for dps sorcs, it is not too big a problem, because you can sometimes burst through it and kill them anyway. for healers, though, it has become almost impossible to kill one. i can solo kill a merc or an op healer with a little effort and well timed cc, but a sorc? #notgonnahappen.

 

if it makes you feel any better, i don't regard these changes to sorc as even a nerf in pvp. after 5 minutes non-stop healing, the poor sorc is going to start having energy problems. that is supposed to fix "heals to stronk"/stop kiting/disappearing so i can kill you? i don't think so. for pve, sure, it is a nerf, but i don't see these changes effecting anything in pvp.

Edited June 1, 2016 by sumquy

[FleeceOfHades]

 

P.P.S. It sounds like you prefer Republic side. Depending on your server, that may not be a good idea. The harbinger, for example, is extremely imp dominated. I prefer republic side, but have not really been able to play it for a long time without ripping my hair out in frustration. The games are so horribly 1-sided. The only decent games come from imp vs imp.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. Vanguard is next on my list to try. I also liked Marauder a lot. My preferred play style is a fury warrior in other games. I may end up back at it with a Sentinel or Guardian.

 

IE the situation on Harbinger, you are correct. We have been winning more depending on time of day. I like Imp side more. But I don't like it as much as I enjoy a challenge, so long live the Republic.

[MotorCityMan]

Heals wasn't nerf at all for pvp. If anything they got a miniscule bump. And with consuming, hardly even bothers a good heal in long pve fights. Dunno why Bioware even bothered with this.

 

Madness sorcs got some nerfs, most notable being a 60% reduction in the area of Death Field.

Edited June 1, 2016 by MotorCityMan

[NeilMckt]

Gunnery Commando/ Mercs and Medtec vastly over specked for PVE but there aren't enough in PVP so no nerf

Sage and Sorcs were unplayable in NIM, almost immobile, and under powered for about 3 years so nerfing them now after about 2 maybe 3 months when they could be used in HM only makes sense....errrr no

Nerf was 100% PVP inspired and not good news in PVE at all

Maybe someone needs to give Sages and Sorcs Heavy Armour, a way of building resources through dps. and a long HOT which is the first thing that heals the target when it takes damage, and expires only when the target takes damage

maybe then we can talk comparable

[FleeceOfHades]

Heals wasn't nerf at all for pvp. If anything they got a miniscule bump. And with consuming, hardly even bothers a good heal in long pve fights. Dunno why Bioware even bothered with this.

 

Madness sorcs got some nerfs, most notable being a 60% reduction in the area of Death Field.

 

I don't really consider the AoE range reduction a nerf at all. It'll maybe knock us down the damage chart a few notches, but it doesn't change anything in effectiveness. (I laughed when I read the devs state it was "too effective". No offense meant to them of course).

 

However the reduction in life leech from 25% to 10% was a major nerf. This number really needed to be going up to 35 or 40% IMO.

 

And the very last one isn't a big deal, but kind of a funny slap in the face:

 

"

• 
  Fixed an issue where Mind’s Eye allowed one Sage's Weaken Mind effect to cause any Sage's Force Serenity damage to be increased on that target."
  

 

^ Sounds like a legitimate gameplay scenario. But if they want to lock their mechanics to a single player's rotation, oh well, it's whatever.

[HungGaKungFuDUDE]

Since we're talking about usefulness in PVP...

 

I've been playing lightning (TK) for quite a while, and I'm not sure I completely agree with you. Yes, the burst damage has been a bit nerfed sinces older patches, however the class is still useful in PVP and I find it pretty darn viable. If you know what you're doing, you can hold your own 1v1 with many players. More importantly if you play a support dps role and actually pay attention to what's going on around you, the burstiness of the class can be very useful for assisting your team in a variety of situaitons. I've noticed one of the tricks to being more effective with the spec is to have a deeper understanding of the abilities. The rotation is important, but knowing what abilities to use out of rotation can really make the class do work. This is the difficult part for a lot of folks; it's not a rinse-and-repeat type of class. So don't get me wrong, it will take more effort to be effective with lightning/TK but IMO if you put in the work the reward is still there.

[FleeceOfHades]

Indeed, understanding synergy always improves performance with any build, as does situational awareness. It's also a 'fun' design for a spec, even though it's weak now. Weaken mind benefits the beginning the rotation, as does mind crush, then turbulence before moving on to gust , and so on while spamming every instant-proc the GCD allows. You're actually awarded for running the alacrity boost cd with a doubled chance at the free auto-cast telekinetic wave. You can also play an unconventional rotation and avoid ANY cast-over-time with the spec if you so desire by throwing Project , force stun and a Rejuv in.

 

Our difference of opinion may be in a "support dps role". To me, a support dps-role is a healer (specced heal) that manages a killing blow when the target is 1% on life while you're stun-locked and on CD, or a tank who has another prime function in a fight. The squishy mage-class on the other hand should inspire one of three thoughts from opponents (depending on class)

 

1. "Lock that thing down quick or we're all going to die."

2. "That thing is going to kill my healer".

3. "Do I still have potions?"

 

All glass, no cannon.

 

Anyway thanks all for the discussion. My thoughts have been made known. I'll simply summarize by saying the nerf itself wasn't a killer, it's just the opposite direction of what I think is logical, and hopefully was not made simply because people see large #'s on the scoreboard. Cheers.

[QuiveringPotato]

Also... Madness' dots are the hardest hitting dots in the game (I would say annihilation's are, but those have far shorter durations, so it just makes sense, and are not nearly as easily spread).

 

If you think dotting up a target, hitting everyone near him with an 8-10k Death Field and spreading your dots which will all be doing extra damage on all of those targets is "tickling", I don't know what to tell you. Madness' dots alone can shave off like ~25-40% of someone's HP if they're critting frequently enough.

 

Of course, with a healer around, that AOE pressure may be less noticeable, but just remember you're helping to make the healer have to heal EVERYONE instead of a select few people getting bursted.

Edited June 2, 2016 by QuiveringPotato

[tcgtqu]

A large number of posts in this thread consisted of nothing but typical dps mentality - nothing should survive when my awesome level over 9000 dps character stares at it. Edited June 5, 2016 by tcgtqu

[ButterflyCactus]

If we're talking dot spec, madness still plays fine. Sure I find it more difficult to rack up 4 even 3k dps with the DF radius reduction (I'm thinking the fix in the bolster has a lot to do with dps reduction as well), but I can still do my job. I'd say when it comes to arenas, there's hardly any change to the class's effectiveness. Heals are a bit harder in regards to dot heals and Force Leech, but with a good enough comp, it's hardly any trouble. Just a noob's two cents.

[Gyronamics]

the squishiest thing on the battlefield

 

The only time this really matters is if you are trapped with a damage resistant nuke class and no warzone forces that scenario.

 

Sorc has a lot going for it to get away and recover health while starting with extra health padding from bubble plus a large resource pool.

 

It only sucks if you try to facetank things because that completely wastes the kite and heal capabilities that are part of sorc survivability.

[PatT]

A poorly played Sorc healer will trump a good Merc/Op healer in PVP nine times out of ten.

 

DPS Sorcs have very good DCD's and can kite better then other ranged classes and have a heal to full god bubble, oh and when played correctly they produce immense DPS and should top the DPS boards every WZ.

 

I don't know much about pvp, so correct me if I'm wrong, but our "god bubble" does not allow us to heal at all when in use. It is a cast. We are, while using said bubble, unable to heal, use a medpac or anything. So heal to full? When? Before or after. By then we are back to unprotected.

 

Methinks people are jealous of something that does not even exist?

[AdjeYo]

I don't know much about pvp, so correct me if I'm wrong, but our "god bubble" does not allow us to heal at all when in use. It is a cast. We are, while using said bubble, unable to heal, use a medpac or anything. So heal to full? When? Before or after. By then we are back to unprotected.

 

Methinks people are jealous of something that does not even exist?

 

There's a utility for that, it's pretty useful in pvp, but generally not taken in pve

[benficakungfu]

If you read your own discipline.