The game has been dumbed down TOO far - The thoughts of a returning founder..

[peter_plankskull]

Oh I understand the point of tacticals and the problem is indeed the implementation. I think for that topic that they should restrict the choice of fp's by the lowest level in the group. So if you have a level range in a group between 15 and 65 it should take a fp that is no higher than 10 levels about the lowest level for example. But bottom line remains that tacticals are often not actually easy but rather quite the contrary so it doesn't fulfil the need as you describe because what's the point of implemention a role neutral option if the reality is that it's near impossible to do for a group of 4 dps...it defeats its own purpose that way.

 

I would prefer it if they just put the minimum level restrictions back in the game to access flashpoints both to avoid spoilers and so their prepared with gameplay mechanics. I once ran legacy of the Rakata with a huge KOTOR fanboy and he was level 15... my god ... good thing I was in that flashpoint with him.... I don't know what would of happened if I wasn't their.

[peter_plankskull]

I get your point and, for someone who wants a real challenge, this is not the game. There are a lot of those games but not so many that are so story heavy. That's what draws me. BW and their storytelling. I didn't mind the original overmuch and I don't mind what it currently is. It's fun and that's why I'm here. Stops being fun? Gone.

 

We can all agree that this game for the most part was never overly difficulty, but if you didn't do a few simple things like gear up, or a certain boss mechanic, like a interrupt, or maybe even a stun here and their, you actually died or had a significant standing in low health. You actually died back then and although not very often, you had to adapt and overcome every now and then, now their is literally none of that and every piece of solo content can be cheesed. I think Gabidool best explained it back a few pages ago.

[xordevoreaux]

I would prefer it if they just put the minimum level restrictions back in the game to access flashpoints both to avoid spoilers and so their prepared with gameplay mechanics. I once ran legacy of the Rakata with a huge KOTOR fanboy and he was level 15... my god ... good thing I was in that flashpoint with him.... I don't know what would of happened if I wasn't their.

 

What is a level restriction when faced with a complete newbie who just used a level 60 token? Level restrictions won't help your cause.

Edited April 25, 2016 by xordevoreaux

[DieAlteHexe]

We can all agree that this game for the most part was never overly difficulty, but if you didn't do a few simple things like gear up, or a certain boss mechanic, like a interrupt, or maybe even a stun here and their, you actually died or had a significant standing in low health. You actually died back then and although not very often, you had to adapt and overcome every now and then, now their is literally none of that and every piece of solo content can be cheesed. I think Gabidool best explained it back a few pages ago.

 

Well, perhaps not for you but I've gotten my arse handed to me a couple times lately. Then again, I have several "lacks":

 

1. epeen

2. skill

3. Shive a git.

 

I die, it happens. I misjudge or plain screw up.

 

Shame that people don't have as much fun as I do, even as suqtacular as I am, I love playing this game.

[Tsillah]

We can all agree that this game for the most part was never overly difficulty, but if you didn't do a few simple things like gear up, or a certain boss mechanic, like a interrupt, or maybe even a stun here and their, you actually died or had a significant standing in low health. You actually died back then and although not very often, you had to adapt and overcome every now and then, now their is literally none of that and every piece of solo content can be cheesed. I think Gabidool best explained it back a few pages ago.

 

As far as MMOs go it's never been an overly challenging leveling process. As far as a story driven MMO that's the story continuation of two Single Player RPGs, they might have invested a bit more in teaching story lovers how and when to use interrupts and basic rotations. Same with operations by the way. All in all some quests that teach people how to do this as a form of integrated tutorials that people are required to follow would've been very welcome in this game I think.

 

Because they didn't do that we are stuck with the problem that a majority of players is not ready for even the limited challenges there were before. Also the community tends to scoff at people instead of helping them so really we are possibly part of the problem. BW made a lot of mistakes early on and we are still stuck with the consequences of that...and so are the current developers for that matter.

[NakodaTheJedi]

well it is an american based game and we are stupid americans who are to lazy to take the time and have a challenging leveling system so lets just fly through **** if it weren't for my guild and the fun i had talking to them id probably quit

[peter_plankskull]

What is a level restriction when faced with a complete newbie who just used a level 60 token? Level restrictions won't help your cause.

 

IMO something like that shouldn't even exist, and it proves Bioware prefers to sell out their product to other people rather than properly ensuring good cohesion and gameplay within a group. Yeah the above mentioned idea wouldn't stop level 60s from entering blood hunt, but it will surely reduce the numbers of newer players entering it.

[Tsillah]

I would prefer it if they just put the minimum level restrictions back in the game to access flashpoints both to avoid spoilers and so their prepared with gameplay mechanics. I once ran legacy of the Rakata with a huge KOTOR fanboy and he was level 15... my god ... good thing I was in that flashpoint with him.... I don't know what would of happened if I wasn't their.

 

Well here's the thing. I see where you're coming from but BW most likely wanted to do something that allows queues to pop more frequently, meaning they don't want to split people into groups. My idea safeguards that goal, yours doesn't. The issue with my idea is of course that it might reduce the variety in flash points that you get to do. So either way there are consequences. However, currently I think the TFPs are not bringing people together as it could, so either way my feeling is that something needs to change there.

[peter_plankskull]

Well here's the thing. I see where you're coming from but BW most likely wanted to do something that allows queues to pop more frequently, meaning they don't want to split people into groups. My idea safeguards that goal, yours doesn't. The issue with my idea is of course that it might reduce the variety in flash points that you get to do. So either way there are consequences. However, currently I think the TFPs are not bringing people together as it could, so either way my feeling is that something needs to change there.

I would prefer more quality runs rather than insta pops, quality over quantity. I still remember my first run of the False Emperor flashpoint, we were all newbies with it and we planned every single mob accordingly with CC, possible tactics, and got through it even with a few laughs. Nothing like using jet boost and seeing a sith warrior leap to that falling target..... ah good times... Compared to my first run of assault on tyhon tactical were it was a steaming mess.

[Rabenschwinge]

I would prefer more quality runs rather than insta pops, quality over quantity. I still remember my first run of the False Emperor flashpoint, we were all newbies with it and we planned every single mob accordingly with CC, possible tactics, and got through it even with a few laughs. Nothing like using jet boost and seeing a sith warrior leap to that falling target..... ah good times... Compared to my first run of assault on tyhon tactical were it was a steaming mess.

 

With the game in its current state getting back to the original flashpoint system, where the flashpoints are tied to the level at which they belong in the storyline and only story mode flashpoints of appropriate level are available in group finder and where the teams are properly balanced, is not a viable option. If you'd queue for Hammer Station with a damage dealer chances are that you level our of it before you find a group.

 

What one might do is make the original story mode flashpoints available again through through the mission entrances. That way you could at least call out in the fleet, like we did before the group finder was introduced. Not sure whether that would really solve anything though, it might end up being a completely ignored feature.

 

I realize that the system is a mess as it is; but honestly I have no idea what to do about it. It feels like flashpoints, as a part of normal progression have become obsolete and every new player who levels up a character these days simply has to hit a wall when they first do hard modes.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Rabenschwinge

[Tsillah]

I would prefer more quality runs rather than insta pops, quality over quantity. I still remember my first run of the False Emperor flashpoint, we were all newbies with it and we planned every single mob accordingly with CC, possible tactics, and got through it even with a few laughs. Nothing like using jet boost and seeing a sith warrior leap to that falling target..... ah good times... Compared to my first run of assault on tyhon tactical were it was a steaming mess.

 

Yeh that's what you prefer, but I think that the GF doesn't serve that need. BW just needs people playing the content to validate putting resources into it.

 

If you want quality, don't use the GF till you have a group together or uncheck tacticals...you may have to wait longer but it does give you the quality you want.

 

But the GF option for random groups and FPs is geared towards quantity. The issue we see though is that the way it's done now it doesn't serve that goal very well either because people get stuck in these tacticals because it actually isn't really good for an all dps team.

[Gokkus]

Ive seen my girlfriend play SWTOR, she gets to play very little. Still she is 12 levels overleveled because she likes to do quests, and she pretty much cannot be killed with a healing comp out.

 

The chapter one boss finale was incredibly easy. She may have been under 80% health at some point, but certainly not for long. She got better whilst playing, but she is by no means considered a skilled player. The difference in difficulty between playing solo and doing a FP with only DPS is enormous.

 

Healers should not make you invinsible. A below averagedly skilled player should not be able to defeat a champion solo. It has most definitely become to easy pre-50.

[peter_plankskull]

With the game in its current state getting back to the original flashpoint system, where the flashpoints are tied to the level at which they belong in the storyline and only story mode flashpoints of appropriate level are available in group finder and where the teams are properly balanced, is not a viable option. If you'd queue for Hammer Station with a damage dealer chances are that you level our of it before you find a group.

 

What one might do is make the original story mode flashpoints available again through through the mission entrances. That way you could at least call out in the fleet, like we did before the group finder was introduced. Not sure whether that would really solve anything though, it might end up being a completely ignored feature.

 

I realize that the system is a mess as it is; but honestly I have no idea what to about it.

 

I guess its because of my experience on harb which is the most populated server, but for tacticals at least I don't have to wait very long for a pop and I only queue now a days for roughly half of them, usually any of the post 50 game ones. Again, I would prefer the minimum level be reinstated so I don't have to completely carry lowbies not because of skill, but because they are unable to do it because of lack of abilities. Quality over quantity in this game.

 

Personally the group finder system in general needs a upgrade, such as seeing how many people are in queue and what they are queued for. Another fix would be the actual use of gear now a days, imo the reason for hard mode flashpoints use to be was a prerequisite for operations, both in terms of mechanics and skill. Now its reversed.... story mode operations are the prerequisite to doing hard mode flashpoints...

[xkcurtisx]

Yeh that's what you prefer, but I think that the GF doesn't serve that need. BW just needs people playing the content to validate putting resources into it.

 

If you want quality, don't use the GF till you have a group together or uncheck tacticals...you may have to wait longer but it does give you the quality you want.

 

But the GF option for random groups and FPs is geared towards quantity. The issue we see though is that the way it's done now it doesn't serve that goal very well either because people get stuck in these tacticals because it actually isn't really good for an all dps team.

 

you would think unchecking tacticals would ensure quality. For some time now ive been trying to max out my flashpoint achievements so i've been using the groupfinder. After a months worth of queuing and only completing 10 successful HM depths of Manan (inc. bonus boss ofc). I made a little rule for my self. Only que as a healer cos then you can carry, and don't accept any queue pop that has a lightsaber weilding class in it. Even obeying these rules won't guarantee you sucess but it'll increase the chance of it.

 

Frustrating how bad people are even on easy faceroll content.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Xcurtx

[peter_plankskull]

you would think unchecking tacticals would ensure quality. For some time now ive been trying to max out my flashpoint achievements so i've been using the groupfinder. After a months worth of queuing and only completing 10 successful HM depths of Manan (inc. bonus boss ofc). I made a little rule for my self. Only que as a healer cos then you can carry, and don't accept any queue pop that has a lightsaber weilding class in it. Even obeying these rules won't guarantee you sucess but it'll increase the chance of it.

 

Frustrating how bad people are even on easy faceroll content.

 

What server do you normally queue on anyway? I saw your video earlier were you 4 manned dread palace, so I know its not your skills in question, but I have yet to do some hard mode operations and I been getting really lucky with people in hard mode flashpoints, as it seems I only get met with the experienced players that even walked me through on Assault on Tython, Korriban, and Battle of Rishi final boss.

[Tsillah]

you would think unchecking tacticals would ensure quality. For some time now ive been trying to max out my flashpoint achievements so i've been using the groupfinder. After a months worth of queuing and only completing 10 successful HM depths of Manan (inc. bonus boss ofc). I made a little rule for my self. Only que as a healer cos then you can carry, and don't accept any queue pop that has a lightsaber weilding class in it. Even obeying these rules won't guarantee you sucess but it'll increase the chance of it.

 

Frustrating how bad people are even on easy faceroll content.

 

There is nothing that ensures quality unless you form a group with people you know.

 

I agree with what you're saying as such though. This game really needs to teach people how to do certain things before allowing them into group content, but I fear that ship has sailed because I don't see BW still making short tutorial quests for all classes at level 10. Also what should be done is that classes with more difficult rotations should be marked so that people realise they are not choosing the easy path.

 

But because this game is also an extension of single player games, they really need to get with the idea that a lot of people drawn to this game are not familiar with MMOs to begin with. Simple one vs one battles where you have to kill enemies that you are only able to do when you do certain role specific actions could help but we don't have those. And the community is not nice enough to help new players. There are exceptions, but that's the thing...they are exceptions.

[TUXs]

Actually you've made quite a few false assumptions, let me address a couple of them.

 

The reason that companions can now select all roles is because people wanted to play with their favourite companions more, not so much because of the difficulty of the game. If you play a marauder and want to level with Jaesa, you'll be dual dps'ing which is not ideal. If you're a sin tank and you think Khem Val is awesome as a companion...well dual tanking is rather boring. As usual BW has a bit of an all or nothing approach so instead of looking at what would make sense per class and companion they just went one size fits all. Considering that some classes got a heal companion first and others not till higher levels has always been an odd thing to me.

 

 

The tactical flashpoints are an interesting topic. They are actually often harder to complete if you don't have a tank and healer in the group. I find this somewhat ironic because being able to go in with 4 dps was the point of having the tacticals in the first place. But because of them being too hard for many when it's a group of dps it actually causes people to quit doing them so it's counterproductive but not because they are dumbed down because especially the higher level ones are actually hard to do as a group of dps (by comparison) and people do die a lot if they don't have a tank, 2 dps and a heal configuration. Funny that.

 

And to be honest, idiot pugs in operations were there in the first year of the game as well. I will say though I did prefer the difficulty of the story bosses originally myself, but clearly a lot of players today just want to play the story and not have much of a challenge. Paying customers you see.

 

Personally I would prefer that BW would do something for level 50+ characters where they have to learn about things like taunting, interrupts, walking out of circles and cleansing before being allowed in operations, but that's just me I guess.

 

Excellent post!

 

I really like the 50+ suggestion too. A tiny zone, just a box, where you're forced to deal with spawning adds that require you to:

A) Tank:

- phase 1 - single target taunt an add off an NPC

- phase 2 - AOE taunt a group of adds off multiple NPCs

- phase 3 - AOE taunt a group then single taunt a lone boss who spawns

 

B) Heal:

- phase 1 - heal an NPC

- phase 2 - heal a group of NPCs

- phase 3 - heal a group and remove debuff from 3

 

C) DPS:

- phase 1 - DPS single target (may wanna spice this one up)

- phase 2 - AoE DPS around a tank NPC who has a group of NPCs around him

- phase 3 - DPS multiple targets with interrupt of a healing NPC (or some cast effect)

 

Just "basics"...but it should be necessary to join an Ops group.

[Tsillah]

Excellent post!

 

I really like the 50+ suggestion too. A tiny zone, just a box, where you're forced to deal with spawning adds that require you to:

A) Tank:

- phase 1 - single target taunt an add off an NPC

- phase 2 - AOE taunt a group of adds off multiple NPCs

- phase 3 - AOE taunt a group then single taunt a lone boss who spawns

 

B) Heal:

- phase 1 - heal an NPC

- phase 2 - heal a group of NPCs

- phase 3 - heal a group and remove debuff from 3

 

C) DPS:

- phase 1 - DPS single target (may wanna spice this one up)

- phase 2 - AoE DPS around a tank NPC who has a group of NPCs around him

- phase 3 - DPS multiple targets with interrupt of a healing NPC (or some cast effect)

 

Just "basics"...but it should be necessary to join an Ops group.

 

Something like that indeed...don't forget phase 4 though where they have to step out of an aoe circle I smile but really it's needed.

[xkcurtisx]

What server do you normally queue on anyway? I saw your video earlier were you 4 manned dread palace, so I know its not your skills in question, but I have yet to do some hard mode operations and I been getting really lucky with people in hard mode flashpoints, as it seems I only get met with the experienced players that even walked me through on Assault on Tython, Korriban, and Battle of Rishi final boss.

 

The Red Eclipse

 

Excellent post!

 

I really like the 50+ suggestion too. A tiny zone, just a box, where you're forced to deal with spawning adds that require you to:

A) Tank:

- phase 1 - single target taunt an add off an NPC

- phase 2 - AOE taunt a group of adds off multiple NPCs

- phase 3 - AOE taunt a group then single taunt a lone boss who spawns

 

B) Heal:

- phase 1 - heal an NPC

- phase 2 - heal a group of NPCs

- phase 3 - heal a group and remove debuff from 3

 

C) DPS:

- phase 1 - DPS single target (may wanna spice this one up)

- phase 2 - AoE DPS around a tank NPC who has a group of NPCs around him

- phase 3 - DPS multiple targets with interrupt of a healing NPC (or some cast effect)

 

Just "basics"...but it should be necessary to join an Ops group.

 

I would love to see this. Maybe make it a tad bit more challanging than this tho. a 10 staged something like in wow. Say silver rating allows you to que SM OPS and HM FPS and Gold rating allows you to step foot into HM OPS

[Andryah]

Yeh and I was able to do so as well, but you know that most people would really struggle. You've got to stop seeing yourself as the lowest common denominator, because as soon as you say "I can do it, so what's the problem" you are basically saying you're the crappiest player out there so if you can do it everyone can...and forgive me if I don't think you are the worst player out there.

 

^^ Very much agree.

 

MMO players need to embrace the fact that an MMO in today's market, and in order to be commercially successful, must appeal to a broad audience. That means bringing down the difficulty curve of core content, while maintaining reasonable challenge to more experienced players at end game. MMO players also need to embrace the fact that no MMO is tailor designed for their personal play preferences. We as players must adapt and adjust to what an MMO offers us.... again.. because an MMO has to be dialed in for the largest audience of diverse player interests and experience.

 

And personally, I see the wisdom in making the game easier to play for the traditionally non-MMO players. Veteran MMO players really should by now be able to figure out how to adjust to this and create more difficulty in their game play if that is what they actually desire.. and this can certainly be done in this MMO by any veteran player. So I personally find the veteran complaints to be lazy and needy in nature.

 

As for companions I am also not happy with how they did it. I was merely explaining that the overall difficulty was not the main driver in this. I would've preferred that they would've given companions two options instead of three, so there would be no Khem Val or Jaesa healers or Doc tanking for example, but BW tends to go all or nothing these days and I wish they would exercise a bit of temperance in that.

 

I agree that companions are straight forward, and easy now days. Those of us that are launch day veterans, and had to struggle through limitations of companions for each class as we leveled.... some of us miss that. Then again, I think we have to keep in mind that Treek was an early prototype of what we have today. Clearly she was popular for her versatility and effectiveness. IMO, the studio took the lessons from that companion and ultimately integrated it into 4.0 in an effort to make the game more friendly for people who typically are not MMO veterans. While I miss some of my older companions uniqueness in combat style.... I understand why they did what they did, and I have adapted and moved on.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Andryah

[BenduKundalini]

I just wrote this minutes earlier on the 800 page "The weird people you find in group finder" thread:

 

The only problem is I actually now get a chance to see their rotations. Turns out this entire FP, the other commando, now level 39 at this time, only spams explosive shot till all of his energy is depleted, and then hammer shot, and his cell or whatever when he spammed it 10 times. The smuggler only spams his basic attack the entire time... not even his little grenade or charged bursts, and I notice at this point he isn't even taking cover... just standing up and firing. while the previous two can somewhat be excused, the 65 sage is also spamming strictly his basic attack as well.

 

Infuriating.

 

Thanks Bioware for dumbing things down to a level where you don't ever need to learn your class while leveling.

 

The other day I created an agent on the last server where I had no toon. One of my "Meatbagkiller" series, a HK clone, with great-looking but empty armor and rifle. No legacy. Only collections items. Well, hit level 11 and took him to Dromund Kaas with affection 1 Nico Okarr on dps mode. So : empty orange gear, not even greens on.

 

I tried to take on the Mandos of Personal Challenge just for kicks expecting to be destroyed. Turns out *I* destroyed them. I later realized I had even forgotten to put a crystal in my rifle at level 10!

 

So when you get to do that with a toon with empty gear, taking on 2 elites at a time and still win and never even need to use a medpack, something is seriously off.

[TUXs]

I would love to see this. Maybe make it a tad bit more challanging than this tho. a 10 staged something like in wow. Say silver rating allows you to que SM OPS and HM FPS and Gold rating allows you to step foot into HM OPS

Great idea! I probably wouldn't require anyone to have to do this, but allowing players to see if others have, would be a good idea. Sometimes we're just killing time as a guild and I would hate to see someones new 65 alt need to do this whole gambit just to join us for an EV HM when we know we can 5-6man it.

 

It's too bad Bioware didn't use the Eternal Champion thing for something like this...but...they do have a model they could use now right?

[AlrikFassbauer]

MMO players need to embrace the fact that an MMO in today's market, and in order to be commercially successful, must appeal to a broad audience.

 

I don't really believe that - because it mans that MMOs lose their uniqueness - and their uniqueness is what makes them stand out from the crowd !

[xkcurtisx]

Great idea! I probably wouldn't require anyone to have to do this, but allowing players to see if others have, would be a good idea. Sometimes we're just killing time as a guild and I would hate to see someones new 65 alt need to do this whole gambit just to join us for an EV HM when we know we can 5-6man it.

 

It's too bad Bioware didn't use the Eternal Champion thing for something like this...but...they do have a model they could use now right?

 

you are limited to 40 character slots anyway, eventually you would have it on all

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Monkey, though I agree with most of what your saying, I think all you did by posting this, is to open yourself to a bunch of casual forum warriors to attack. You will be told if you don't like it leave, that story was never suppose to have any challenge whatsoever etc. etc.

 

So all I can say....is brace yourself....