Why are people still mad about no new raids?

[LordTurin]

It is when the raiders are not the majority.

 

I think ops' problem is quite simple, you need to rely on others and need to get 7 other people to run it. People don't want efforts to be spent on these rather than the content itself, so even if they make new ops, I think it requires some work.

 

Err no its not... if you read the rest of my post, I'm saying that it is not cost, it is the amount of money they make after that cost is most important. Businesses don't make decisions purely based on cost, they don't say, "Well, we can spend 50$ and make 100$, or we can spend $1000 and make 3 billion. Lets spend 50$ as that is cheaper" (unless the business is really really tight on money lol) and right now I agree with you that story probably has a better ROI than Ops, and that is why they are doing it (but cartel market probably has a better ROI than either). But at some point that may change, especially as more people get through the story, and enjoy it, but now have nothing else to do.

[geschmonz]

How can you know exactly what you talk about? Have you seen actual numbers or are you just basing all this on your own limited view?

 

Sure i have numbers. Of other MMORPGs and statistics from their playerbase. Blizzard Entertainment releases all their statistical data through their armory. And you get a half-year report of raid participation from fan sites.

 

Also i have a quote from Jeremy Gaffney, talking about solo players as the largest part of the MMORPG playerbase.

 

While i even doubt you know who Jeremy Gaffney is. Pro-Tip: Use Google

 

There is no need to counter your arguments because you only offer opinions just like everybody else.

 

I base my opinions on arguments you obviously arent able to counter.

 

Now, I would agree that the indications are there that the amount of people who play ops is not a majority, but to say almost no one plays ops is just your assumption. You have no real evidence to support that claim, just as no one else has evidence of the opposite of course but that still doesn't make your opinions more valid.

 

As i said, i have a lot of statistics from other games. I have interviews talking about player numbers and percentages playing organized raids. Sunwell in TBC, as an example, was seen by less than 1% of the wow playerbase those days.

 

Raiding always was, and always will be, minority gameplay.

Edited April 7, 2016 by geschmonz

[Slowpokeking]

I've actually noticed that TFB at least is easier and faster to get through compared to 3.0. Kephess doesn't move at all, and there isn't even a tank swap on the Terror. I'm actually a lot more comfortable solo-healing the 55 ops in SM than I was in 3.0 (hated doing that, very stressful).

 

They didn't bring up NiP, they brought the rest of us down via level-sync, so that we could enjoy the solo content via heroics and class missions more. NiP and the other World bosses were just a side effect of that, they would have had to re-do all the mechanics and the fight in order to make it soloable again.

 

Dunno, I feel that the fights are longer than they were due to the DPS requirement is higher, some encounters become more difficult because of it.

 

I don't ask it to be soloable, I just don't want it to require 16 and 16 people only.

[JMCA]

I agree. As a former hardcore raider, I think Uruare encapsulated it very well.

 

That said, generally speaking... people who are still in to raiding.... they will dismiss or attack what Uruare stated.

 

One thing I will always appreciate with WoW is that it taught me, over time, how silly the raid model is for MMO content consumption. There are better methods for group content, and there has been some good innovation in the market. Which is not to say that there should be no raids in MMOs, but the ad nauseam hard core approach has too much overhead beyond just doing the content. It is the mother of all treadmills in MMOs.. and as people realized this and pushed back, the genre has responded with more turn-key and less needlessly complex raid content. This of course has inflamed some of the remaining hard core MMO raiders.

 

Yeah I was in one of the progression groups for FFXIV and I do not miss that subculture of MMOs. At all.

 

His comparison to aristocracy is on point - these people actually think they are better people because they can clear a raid faster than others.

 

But yeah, WoW is having problems over the years because that model only goes so far - they have a stranglehold on that demographic but it's shrinking every year. Other MMOs are realizing that their ability to bring in other types of gamers is what the future of MMOs is.

 

BW switching to Story-first, MMO bits- second is the right way to do things.

 

Furthermore as far as group content is concerned Star Wars has always been about a very small group of people overcoming impossible odds. To me that's Flashpoints and 2 man content. They would be better served making that kind of content than having this "small army kills the dragon" stuff.

[Slowpokeking]

Err no its not... if you read the rest of my post, I'm saying that it is not cost, it is the amount of money they make after that cost is most important. Businesses don't make decisions purely based on cost, they don't say, "Well, we can spend 50$ and make 100$, or we can spend $1000 and make 3 billion. Lets spend 50$ as that is cheaper" (unless the business is really really tight on money lol) and right now I agree with you that story probably has a better ROI than Ops, and that is why they are doing it (but cartel market probably has a better ROI than either). But at some point that may change, especially as more people get through the story, and enjoy it, but now have nothing else to do.

 

But it's different than years a go now. Not that many people are that into 8 men ops anymore, especially the hard ones. So even if new ops comes out, the overall style requires some work.

 

I just hope old ops could be toned down when new ones come out.

[LordTurin]

Sure i have numbers. Of other MMORPGs and statistics from their playerbase. Blizzard Entertainment releases all their statistical data through their armory. And you get a half-year report of raid participation from fan sites..

 

So I just checked the WoW stuff I believe you were referring to, and according to them, they see 900k PVE instances a day (http://media.wow-europe.com/infographic/en/world-of-warcraft-infographic.html), being defined as 3-man, 5-man, and raids (from the little research I did, I don't play WoW so it is possible I am misinterpreting things).

 

I'm not sure if there are other numbers you are looking at, and I am sure the Solo numbers are much higher still (and that a fair number of the 900k are repeats of people who do 10 or more a day), but claiming that almost no-one does it just seems disingenuous to me.

[JennyFlynn]

Sure i have numbers. Of other MMORPGs and statistics from their playerbase. Blizzard Entertainment releases all their statistical data through their armory. And you get a half-year report of raid participation from fan sites.

 

Also i have a quote from Jeremy Gaffney, talking about solo players as the largest part of the MMORPG playerbase.

 

While i even doubt you know who Jeremy Gaffney is. Pro-Tip: Use Google

 

 

 

I base my opinions on arguments you obviously arent able to counter.

 

 

 

As i said, i have a lot of statistics from other games. I have interviews talking about player numbers and percentages playing organized raids. Sunwell in TBC, as an example, was seen by less than 1% of the wow playerbase those days.

 

Raiding always was, and always will be, minority gameplay.

 

Statistically it may be a minority, assuming your numbers are valid and accurate but your last example, Sunwell in TBC, is also from many many years ago. I've just recently gone on a break from WoW however, up until last December, the entrance area to the newest raids were always chock full of people getting ready to go in. The place would be littered with about 50'ish people easily on any given night and it wouldn't matter if I signed in at 6 am EST and look for a PUG or go in with my own team at 6 pm, there was a constant coming and going of groups. Who knows, those people may be the 1% if you look at the grand total of a player base but that doesn't mean they don't deserve to receive raid content just because they're a 'minority'.

[geschmonz]

I just hope old ops could be toned down when new ones come out.

 

Operations have been wasted to a small group of players. The best solution is to turn them into H2+-flashpoints. Being soloable with some skill.

 

I believe, every flashpoint- and operation-content should be made soloable and playable by small groups.

[azudelphi]

Operations have been wasted to a small group of players. The best solution is to turn them into H2+-flashpoints. Being soloable with some skill.

 

I believe, every flashpoint- and operation-content should be made soloable and playable by small groups.

Problem is, we've seen that it isn't very good repeatable end game content either. The Star Fortresses do very little to keep people subbing. They exist in that H2+ and Flashpoint middle'ish area you've described.

 

Operations, as much as you seem to dislike the community that enjoy them, does create a community that will tend to subscribe.

Edited April 7, 2016 by azudelphi

[geschmonz]

Statistically it may be a minority, assuming your numbers are valid and accurate but your last example, Sunwell in TBC, is also from many many years ago.

 

Actually its from the days when WoW had 13 million active players. Compared to nowadays with around 4 million players. While TBC, the playersbase still was growing, as it was early in the game lifecycle.

 

And yes, the number is accurate. It's a quote from the devs and an interview.

 

http://www.gameplanet.co.nz/pc/features/i138733/Blizzards-J.-Allen-Brack-on-Mists-of-Pandaria/

 

If you think back to the last giant raid we did, I think that was in the pre-Lich King era, was the Sunwell. The amount of energy and the amount of time that goes into creating those raids, and creating everything that has to go with it – monsters, the raid itself, all items, the armour sets and weapon sets have to be created – it's just a huge amount of team focus to create that. When Sunwell was effectively done, and Wrath of the Lich King came out, less than one percent of the playerbase actually experienced Sunwell.

 

I've just recently gone on a break from WoW however, up until last December, the entrance area to the newest raids were always chock full of people getting ready to go in. The place would be littered with about 50'ish people easily on any given night and it wouldn't matter if I signed in at 6 am EST and look for a PUG or go in with my own team at 6 pm, there was a constant coming and going of groups. Who knows, those people may be the 1% if you look at the grand total of a player base but that doesn't mean they don't deserve to receive raid content just because they're a 'minority'.

 

Raid participation in WoW is way higher nowadays. Mainly due to the fact they implemented a group finder, which allows you to assemble groups very fast. The part of guild raids, tho, is still as small as it was in WotLK. Which is not 1% but a two digit percentage.

[JennyFlynn]

Operations have been wasted to a small group of players. The best solution is to turn them into H2+-flashpoints. Being soloable with some skill.

 

I believe, every flashpoint- and operation-content should be made soloable and playable by small groups.

 

Yes and no. I wouldn't want to see OPs replaced by H2+ FPs however, they'd make a nice addition/alternative to those who don't want to play OPs, don't have time for it, would rather play with themselves and so on. Taking them away entirely though would be extremely unfair to the raiding crowd no matter how much you claim they're a minority. Even if they were a minority, those people deserve to get what they're subscribing for too.

 

Rift actually took some of their raids and reworked them into 1-2 man mini's as an alternative to those who don't raid.

[Slowpokeking]

Operations have been wasted to a small group of players. The best solution is to turn them into H2+-flashpoints. Being soloable with some skill.

 

I believe, every flashpoint- and operation-content should be made soloable and playable by small groups.

 

Yep, less effort should be spent on finding groups.

[azudelphi]

Yes and no. I wouldn't want to see OPs replaced by H2+ FPs however, they'd make a nice addition/alternative to those who don't want to play OPs, don't have time for it, would rather play with themselves and so on. Taking them away entirely though would be extremely unfair to the raiding crowd no matter how much you claim they're a minority. Even if they were a minority, those people deserve to get what they're subscribing for too.

 

Rift actually took some of their raids and reworked them into 1-2 man mini's as an alternative to those who don't raid.

A very reasonable approach imo.

[geschmonz]

Problem is, we've seen that it isn't very good repeatable end game content either. The Star Fortresses do very little to keep people subbing. They exist in that H2+ and Flashpoint middle'ish area you've described.

 

The ongoing monthly update is the key feature. Which gives a new story. And surely not raids.

 

Operations, as much as you seem to dislike the community that enjoy them, does create a community that will tend to subscribe.

 

Do you prefer 10000 customers playing your game for 1 week a month or 10 loyal customers playing your game every day?

[JennyFlynn]

Raid participation in WoW is way higher nowadays. Mainly due to the fact they implemented a group finder, which allows you to assemble groups very fast. The part of guild raids, tho, is still as small as it was in WotLK. Which is not 1% but a two digit percentage.

 

Yes a lot of revenue comes through LFG/LFR and the fact you can now team up cross server. I myself was/am part of a massive guild though which actually spans 10 guilds wide and last I checked they had 60 different raid teams running current raids at various degrees and at all hours of the day. My server is one of the bigger ones and our guild's always been a big part of the community so I've likely seen far more favorable numbers than on other servers but still, it's not all that dead.

[Slowpokeking]

Yes a lot of revenue comes through LFG/LFR and the fact you can now team up cross server. I myself was/am part of a massive guild though which actually spans 10 guilds wide and last I checked they had 60 different raid teams running current raids at various degrees and at all hours of the day. My server is one of the bigger ones and our guild's always been a big part of the community so I've likely seen far more favorable numbers than on other servers but still, it's not all that dead.

 

The current group finder of SWTOR is horrible.

[geschmonz]

Yes and no. I wouldn't want to see OPs replaced by H2+ FPs however, they'd make a nice addition/alternative to those who don't want to play OPs, don't have time for it, would rather play with themselves and so on. Taking them away entirely though would be extremely unfair to the raiding crowd no matter how much you claim they're a minority. Even if they were a minority, those people deserve to get what they're subscribing for too.

 

Rift actually took some of their raids and reworked them into 1-2 man mini's as an alternative to those who don't raid.

 

The best solution is to create content for everyone. So if operation content was added, it also should be available for solo players and small groups as an additional mode.

 

But exclusive raid content is an absolute no go. Who should pay those raids? The content in the raids has to be consumed by the entire playerbase, and not only by a few. A approach like in rift surely would work, if it also was applied to new content.

 

Adding a system like that would create elitism among raiders and would split the playerbase, tho. "Why are they allowed to see my content?".. see the toxic reactions of the raider playerbase in WoW when LFR was introduced.

[azudelphi]

The ongoing monthly update is the key feature. Which gives a new story. And surely not raids.

 

Do you prefer 10000 customers playing your game for 1 week a month or 10 loyal customers playing your game every day?

I'd prefer a game that has as much fun per dollar it can have. You seem convinced that can only come at some draconian cost to a specific subset of the community you have particular assumptions on.

 

I'd prefer to see more of all content types. I had the most sympathy for the PVP community; they had the longest drought of new warzones / arenas. Now I turn my sympathies to the Raiding community.

 

Right now, I'll be honest... I am unlikely to remained subscribed at the end of KotFE unless new operations show up. $15 / month for a single player game is outrageous. Without the community working on something together, the game has declined in quality for me as I have watched my semi-casual raiding guild leave the game. Basically, I'd rather give people something to do between the 1.5 hours of story for the remaining 3 weeks than build up any sense of lacking value in my product.

[Slowpokeking]

The best solution is to create content for everyone. So if operation content was added, it also should be available for solo players and small groups as an additional mode.

 

But exclusive raid content is an absolute no go. Who should pay those raids? The content in the raids has to be consumed by the entire playerbase, and not only by a few. A approach like in rift surely would work, if it also was applied to new content.

 

Adding a system like that would create elitism among raiders and would split the playerbase, tho. "Why are they allowed to see my content?".. see the toxic reactions of the raider playerbase in WoW when LFR was introduced.

 

Pretty much.

[geschmonz]

My server is one of the bigger ones and our guild's always been a big part of the community so I've likely seen far more favorable numbers than on other servers but still, it's not all that dead.

 

Sorry, but guild raiding is as dead as it ever was.. no change here since WotLK. It was very low in TBC, tho, in comparison.

 

In its traditional approach, raiding never really worked as endgame for many.

[JennyFlynn]

Sorry, but guild raiding is as dead as it ever was.. no change here since WotLK. It was very low in TBC, tho, in comparison.

 

In its traditional approach, raiding never really worked as endgame for many.

 

Really depends on the server, IMHO.

 

Pulled from Warcraft Logs - and I know from experience the raiding community, in and outside of guilds, is very much alive. In this very moment I suspect it's diminished some due to the general pre-new expansion burn out phase but it'll kick back up again, it always does.

 

I also do believe that adding a new OPs in SWTOR as well as perhaps offering alternatives to those OPs for the people who don't want to/cannot raid, would revive that aspect of PvE content quite a bit. No doubt some of the current disinterest stems from a lack of content that's provided and people being burned out on/bored with the older stuff.

[geschmonz]

I also do believe that adding a new OPs in SWTOR as well as perhaps offering alternatives to those OPs for the people who don't want to/cannot raid, would revive that aspect of PvE content quite a bit. No doubt some of the current disinterest stems from a lack of content that's provided and people being burned out on/bored with the older stuff.

 

I think the MMORPG genre in total is not appealing anymore. Add to this the fact many MMORPG developers focus on "ancient relics" like organized group play, they dont really help to evolve the format to something better.

 

At the end, its always the same. Quests having "collect 10 x" and "kill 20 y".. battlegrounds where you defend a base, catch a ball or capture a flag, dungeons with a tank, a healer and dds.. and we got all that for 15 years already.. with a genre thats not going anywhere..

 

The same content used for OPs would have to be used for solo player experiences. Or lets even say, the focus should be on designing the solo and small group player experience and derive operations from it, which wont have dedicated assets and gameplay. Just a group setting with more demanding boss abilities.

 

Everyone would be able to see the same story. No matter if its played as an operation or as a solo player experience.

Edited April 7, 2016 by geschmonz

[Andryah]

I think the MMORPG genre in total is not appealing anymore. Add to this the fact many MMORPG developers focus on "ancient relics" like organized group play, they dont really help to evolve the format to something better.

 

At the end, its always the same. Quests having "collect 10 x" and "kill 20 y".. battlegrounds where you defend a base, catch a ball or capture a flag, dungeons with a tank, a healer and dds.. and we got all that for 15 years already.. with a genre thats not going anywhere..

 

Sincere question then..... why are you here subscribing to and playing this MMO?

[Slowpokeking]

Sincere question then..... why are you here subscribing to and playing this MMO?

 

Star Wars+story I guess.

[Andryah]

Star Wars+story I guess.

 

Maybe... but given his aggressive anti-MMO stance all over the forum today, I'd like to hear it from him.