Why are people still mad about no new raids?

[Andryah]

The thing is, group content should let people focus more on the content itself rather than finding a group.

 

The Groupfinder of SWTOR REALLY requires major improvement.

 

Well... back in the day.... most people did group content with people they know or guild mates. Or sometimes if the content was ad hoc, we simply pulled from players within the zone, since they likely were close by or planning to do the same group content. There was a time when group finders did not exist in MMOs.. and amazingly enough.. we were quite able to assemble groups (even large ones for old school epic style encounters) without such tools.

 

That said, when most people PuG..in a highly instanced MMO.. yeah.. they seem to need good group finder mechanics. In the absence of it.. they sit in fleet and spam the chat channel all day long.

 

I have no position one way or the other on group finder mechanics as I only group with guild mates or real life friends and we only use it to fill an empty slot or two.. and even that is us just being too lazy to reach out to other guilds or groups of players we know.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Andryah

[Slowpokeking]

Well... back in the day.... most people did group content with people they know or guild mates. There was a time when group finders did not exist in MMOs.. and amazingly enough.. we were quite able to assemble groups (even large ones for old school epic style encounters) without such tools.

 

That said, when most people PuG..in a highly instanced MMO.. yeah.. they seem to need group finder mechanics. In the absence of it.. they sit in fleet and spam the chat channel all day long.

 

I have no position one way or the other on group finder mechanics as I only group with guild mates or real life friends and we only use it to fill an empty slot or two.. and even that is us just being too lazy to reach out to other guilds or groups of players we know.

 

But the era is different now, it's no longer that easy to find groups for a lot of people. Also with good GF, I won't have to go back and forth from the fleet and other areas.

[Andryah]

But the era is different now, it's no longer that easy to find groups for a lot of people. Also with good GF, I won't have to go back and forth from the fleet and other areas.

 

No disagreement.. but that is because most players are more loners (as in independent, not anti-social) and either are not in a guild, or their guild is small or nobody is online, and so they need to PuG group content. I think a lot of this is because peoples real life day is very busy and so when they get in game, they want to do what they want immediately and will take whatever path is quickest. It has it's pluses and minus. You can meet really good people when PuGing, but you also meet some of the worst of the worst. I don't PuG... as I simply don't have time for the drama that comes when one of the worst of the worst shows up in a group finder. Since I am old school in MMOs... I still prefer to play with people I actually know. There is generally a trust and much less drama in that approach I have found.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Andryah

[Slowpokeking]

No disagreement.. but that is because most players are more loners and either are not in a guild, or their guild is small or nobody is online, and so they need to PuG group content. I think a lot of this is because peoples real life day is very busy and so when they get in game, they want to do what they want immediately and will take whatever path is quickest. It has it's pluses and minus. You can meet really good people when PuGing, but you also meet some of the worst of the worst. I don't PuG... as I simply don't have time for the drama that comes when one of the worst of the worst shows up in a group finder.

Yes the era is different now, you can see even the best MMO WOW is dwindling because the style no longer fit people's taste anymore. People want "I can roll out whenever I get online" game like LOL now.

 

It's not I want to pug, my guild don't have that many people online and willing to do group content now, so I think new ops is fine, but it shouldn't be to main focus anymore. The new heroic system is awesome, we just need more new content like those.

[Slowpokeking]

No disagreement.. but that is because most players are more loners (as in independent, not anti-social) and either are not in a guild, or their guild is small or nobody is online, and so they need to PuG group content. I think a lot of this is because peoples real life day is very busy and so when they get in game, they want to do what they want immediately and will take whatever path is quickest. It has it's pluses and minus. You can meet really good people when PuGing, but you also meet some of the worst of the worst. I don't PuG... as I simply don't have time for the drama that comes when one of the worst of the worst shows up in a group finder. Since I am old school in MMOs... I still prefer to play with people I actually know. There is generally a trust and much less drama in that approach I have found.

 

SWTOR also suffered this during launch. It was a lot better than vanilla WOW, but people no longer are that interested in MMO at that time and they got WOW. They aren't going to give such a game more time to let it improve and get better like WOW did.

[Killance]

Get sick for a day, come back and my thread reached 6 pages.

 

Didn't know this was still a sensitive topic for some people.

[Killance]

I agree it did. But it's key selling point was forced group content at end game, complex atunements, and long complex raids.

And that's why Wildstar failed. Most players don't want that, it's such a vocal minority that wants it. A lot of forum posters(who are also the VERY vocal minority of the game) think that end game is everything when in reality that is now a death sentence for any MMO.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Killance

[TUXs]

And that's why Wildstar failed. Most players don't want that, it's such a vocal minority that wants it. A lot of forum posters(who are also the VERY vocal minority of the game) think that end game is everything when in reality that is now a death sentence for any MMO.

I've never played Wildstar so I can only comment on SWTOR's raids...they're very casual friendly, especially since 4.0. They don't take weeks to master (except on the higher difficulty settings) and even an average group can complete HM EV/KP in under 2-hours. Almost ANY group of players can complete the daily SM's in about an hour...so how is it that you view Ops here as a "death sentence"? They're tuned extremely well right now imo.

[Khevar]

A lot of forum posters(who are also the VERY vocal minority of the game) think that end game is everything when in reality that is now a death sentence for any MMO.

I agree that raids are absolutely not required for an MMO to be good. But it's silly to think that adding them is a "death sentence".

 

I've recently been playing FFXIV, and the inclusion of raiding doesn't seem to hurt that game at all.

[JennyFlynn]

I couldn't care less about Ops in SWTOR. I've never set foot in one thus far for various reasons and I'm glad the majority of PvE isn't gated behind having to complete such and so in Ops in order to advance story wise. From what I hear the Oricon thing might be the exception here if you wish to see how it ends but I could be mistaken.

 

I also have plenty of negative experiences from doing Ops/raids elsewhere. A large number of people who take it so far that they genuinely believe their success in a raid, the achievements and special rewards, means that they're not just better than other players but superior. And they desperately need that superiority because I've seen many fall apart the moment something doesn't work out and they can't get it done. The same can be said though for people who always have to win when playing board games (does anyone even do that these days?), sports or any form of competing really which is what raiding, in my experience, has often come down to.

 

I do not believe that Ops should be essential to SWTOR nor any other MMO, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep if the notion of Ops/raids disappeared from every single MMO over night. That said though, despite my personal beliefs and experiences regarding Ops, I do understand how other players feel differently. How it matters to them. For me, story is key in this game but there are plenty of people who are more concerned with end-game and either PvP'ing or raiding and who am I to judge them for it simply because I have different values or opinions? Thing is, SWTOR has offered (presumably decent?) Ops in the past but it seems there's a vast decline in that now with little word on where it goes from here. It's perfectly okay for those who care about that to be upset about it. Like it or not, Ops/Raids have become an integral part of most any MMO.

[rklontz]

I've recently been playing FFXIV, and the inclusion of raiding doesn't seem to hurt that game at all.

 

What hurts that game is inflexible developers, everything locked behind a bunch of filler quests, re playability, and the incredibly long time between content releases.

[Slowpokeking]

I couldn't care less about Ops in SWTOR. I've never set foot in one thus far for various reasons and I'm glad the majority of PvE isn't gated behind having to complete such and so in Ops in order to advance story wise. From what I hear the Oricon thing might be the exception here if you wish to see how it ends but I could be mistaken.

 

I also have plenty of negative experiences from doing Ops/raids elsewhere. A large number of people who take it so far that they genuinely believe their success in a raid, the achievements and special rewards, means that they're not just better than other players but superior. And they desperately need that superiority because I've seen many fall apart the moment something doesn't work out and they can't get it done. The same can be said though for people who always have to win when playing board games (does anyone even do that these days?), sports or any form of competing really which is what raiding, in my experience, has often come down to.

 

I do not believe that Ops should be essential to SWTOR nor any other MMO, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep if the notion of Ops/raids disappeared from every single MMO over night. That said though, despite my personal beliefs and experiences regarding Ops, I do understand how other players feel differently. How it matters to them. For me, story is key in this game but there are plenty of people who are more concerned with end-game and either PvP'ing or raiding and who am I to judge them for it simply because I have different values or opinions? Thing is, SWTOR has offered (presumably decent?) Ops in the past but it seems there's a vast decline in that now with little word on where it goes from here. It's perfectly okay for those who care about that to be upset about it. Like it or not, Ops/Raids have become an integral part of most any MMO.

 

Yep, raiders tend to show elitism more than others. They even refuse to nerf the old content to let more people enjoy it after they got it done and had moved on.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[TUXs]

I couldn't care less about Ops in SWTOR. I've never set foot in one thus far for various reasons and I'm glad the majority of PvE isn't gated behind having to complete such and so in Ops in order to advance story wise. From what I hear the Oricon thing might be the exception here if you wish to see how it ends but I could be mistaken.

 

I also have plenty of negative experiences from doing Ops/raids elsewhere. A large number of people who take it so far that they genuinely believe their success in a raid, the achievements and special rewards, means that they're not just better than other players but superior. And they desperately need that superiority because I've seen many fall apart the moment something doesn't work out and they can't get it done. The same can be said though for people who always have to win when playing board games (does anyone even do that these days?), sports or any form of competing really which is what raiding, in my experience, has often come down to.

 

I do not believe that Ops should be essential to SWTOR nor any other MMO, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep if the notion of Ops/raids disappeared from every single MMO over night. That said though, despite my personal beliefs and experiences regarding Ops, I do understand how other players feel differently. How it matters to them. For me, story is key in this game but there are plenty of people who are more concerned with end-game and either PvP'ing or raiding and who am I to judge them for it simply because I have different values or opinions? Thing is, SWTOR has offered (presumably decent?) Ops in the past but it seems there's a vast decline in that now with little word on where it goes from here. It's perfectly okay for those who care about that to be upset about it. Like it or not, Ops/Raids have become an integral part of most any MMO.

I'm curious...what is "essential" to an MMO then? Group content (Ops) aren't...are FP's also disposable? PvP? RP? Crafting? GSF obviously isn't, neither is fishing...so what exactly is?

 

See, I think a large variety of activities are essential. I don't craft, but plenty of people do. I don't RP, but plenty of people do. I don't do PvE space, but people do. I think a good MMO appeals to a broad range of players who mostly all dabble in a little of this and a little of that...nothing is "essential", but a good mix of solo, group, hardcore and casual activities certainly appeals to me.

[Slowpokeking]

I'm curious...what is "essential" to an MMO then? Group content (Ops) aren't...are FP's also disposable? PvP? RP? Crafting? GSF obviously isn't, neither is fishing...so what exactly is?

 

See, I think a large variety of activities are essential. I don't craft, but plenty of people do. I don't RP, but plenty of people do. I don't do PvE space, but people do. I think a good MMO appeals to a broad range of players who mostly all dabble in a little of this and a little of that...nothing is "essential", but a good mix of solo, group, hardcore and casual activities certainly appeals to me.

 

It really depend on different era. Sure group content is needed, but not necessary with the current form of FP and OPS.

[IanArgent]

I'm curious...what is "essential" to an MMO then? Group content (Ops) aren't...are FP's also disposable? PvP? RP? Crafting? GSF obviously isn't, neither is fishing...so what exactly is?

 

See, I think a large variety of activities are essential. I don't craft, but plenty of people do. I don't RP, but plenty of people do. I don't do PvE space, but people do. I think a good MMO appeals to a broad range of players who mostly all dabble in a little of this and a little of that...nothing is "essential", but a good mix of solo, group, hardcore and casual activities certainly appeals to me.

 

Well said. I don't participate in ops, really, or Flashpoints; and while I'll argue that the Star Fortresses are mildly group content, something more in the pipeline; a la the recent PvP addition, a single Op with two difficulties and a flashpoint with tactical and hard modes would be something. If they had the resources, and that's the rub. They're still chasing down what are basically "new game" bugs from the massive systemic changes of 4.0

[FlavivsAetivs]

Yes, the raiding community usually includes a group of elitists. There's a lot of raiders on Jedi Cov that are disgusted with the elitist attitude portrayed by some raiders, so Jedi Cov's raiding community is actually kinda split in two. But not everyone who does Ops is an elitist.

 

As for ops disappearing... well there's a lot of hardcore players who have been here since day 1 that have left because of the lack of new PvE content, and more continuing to leave. It would probably kill the entire veteran playerbase if that happened. The game isn't fun to play when all you have left to do with your friends is just get annihilated by PvP premades and teams of OP classes over and over and over. Not fun to be up against a group mostly comprised of sages and operatives even when you're with other veteran players.

 

I think Ops as a whole, across all MMO's, need an update. Group finder definitely does (after all the only thing it's for op-wise is just using lockouts, which few people do anymore really, and flashpoints are broken). But they definitely don't need to be gotten rid of.

 

@Jennyflynn

 

Frankly if you're saying "get rid of ops" then I might as well be saying "get rid of RP". This game is clearly designed for neither (I know a couple of RP'ers WAY more "hardcore" than many of you, and they laugh at the concept of RP in modern MMO's. They've gone back to the way they did it in the 80's and such with tabletop or to very sandbox and player-driven MMO's, like how the modded Everquest servers were back in the day). And yeah, you probably know raiders way more "hardcore" than me, I know tons who are. I could just as easily get turned off by RP'ers and not want to do RP ever again (which is what happened, people take it so far it's stupid IMO, and then there's ERP...) just like you got turned off by raiders and don't like ops.

 

So in a nutshell, just because you don't like something doesn't mean it should be gotten rid of. MMO's aren't built around a single focus, as someone said earlier. RP, GSF, Ops, PvP, etc all are important contributors to keeping this game "alive" (although it is on life support and in large part because of the lack of it being treated as an MMO and instead the devs treat it like a singleplayer RPG).

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited April 7, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs

[JennyFlynn]

I'm curious...what is "essential" to an MMO then? Group content (Ops) aren't...are FP's also disposable? PvP? RP? Crafting? GSF obviously isn't, neither is fishing...so what exactly is?

 

See, I think a large variety of activities are essential. I don't craft, but plenty of people do. I don't RP, but plenty of people do. I don't do PvE space, but people do. I think a good MMO appeals to a broad range of players who mostly all dabble in a little of this and a little of that...nothing is "essential", but a good mix of solo, group, hardcore and casual activities certainly appeals to me.

 

I may have worded what I meant poorly; I meant as in, the sole key that drives an MMO. OPs aren't the main thing any MMO is built on, developers don't sit there and think "Let's bring these raids into the world and design an MMO around it". A combination of all content does matter, as does group content but it's not one aspect makes all. OPs, for me personally, don't matter in the equation but I fully understand and accept that it does for others and I'm not denying the significance or importance of OPs/raids in an MMO, it's just not a key factor for me personally.

 

I will say I'm biased though and through that I haven't even tried OPs in SWTOR. Too often in other games have I dealt with insane amounts of drama over raids and raiding in general, received and heard some of the worst verbal abuse possible from 'die hards', been met with hostility for asking a question regarding an unknown/new fight and other similar issues that have made me extremely reluctant to even try in SWTOR. Especially when I see General Chat float across my screen where people are calling each other out over a PUG that's fallen apart, hurling abuse at one another left and right and making personal attacks at whoever they deem responsible for the failure.

[JennyFlynn]

@Jennyflynn

 

Frankly if you're saying "get rid of ops" then I might as well be saying "get rid of RP". This game is clearly designed for neither (I know a couple of RP'ers WAY more "hardcore" than many of you, and they laugh at the concept of RP in modern MMO's. They've gone back to the way they did it in the 80's and such with tabletop or to very sandbox and player-driven MMO's, like how the modded Everquest servers were back in the day). And yeah, you probably know raiders way more "hardcore" than me, I know tons who are. I could just as easily get turned off by RP'ers and not want to do RP ever again (which is what happened, people take it so far it's stupid IMO, and then there's ERP...) just like you got turned off by raiders and don't like ops.

 

So in a nutshell, just because you don't like something doesn't mean it should be gotten rid of. MMO's aren't built around a single focus, as someone said earlier. RP, GSF, Ops, PvP, etc all are important contributors to keeping this game "alive" (although it is on life support and in large part because of the lack of it being treated as an MMO and instead the devs treat it like a singleplayer RPG).

 

~ Eudoxia

 

Read my post again. I never said "get rid of OPs". I said I personally wouldn't care if they did disappear however, that's merely how I'd feel about it if that ever happened and by no means is intended to say that that's what I actually want to happen. I don't. Everyone has their own preference for the game and even though mine doesn't lie with OPs, I'd never wish to take that feature away from others. Heck I even stated that those who're upset with a lack of new OPs are perfectly entitled to feeling upset about it because despite my personal feelings, I get that it matters to them.

[Daxer]

Doesn't really bother me, I am fine with the OPS we have. But I guess if all you do in the game is run raids, then yeah, you will get bored. But it is an mmorpg, you are not meant to just do one thing, you are meant to enjoy the game by doing a bit of everything . Of course its your choice, but it will just kill the game for you.

 

People are talking about the state of the game thats going to go down in players etc. Fact is they gained a boost of playerbase at the release of Kotfe. People who might not play all the time, but return every month for a new chapter.

 

And I think the story is great, with a lot for us ahead. I started this game back when it released in 2012 because I liked the idea of a more story driven mmorpg where you didn't get forced to do dungeons/FP's/raids/OPS / PVP to have fun. And where you weren't forced to group up with others. (Some of us just play mmorpg's to be in a world with others but don't really want to rely on them to get something done.)

 

Will the game die? - Maybe, im thinking after Kotfe is done it might stay on for a year and then close down..

 

I get it, you guys who are raiding alot and not doing much of anything else with your time. You feel left out. But they did say, believe it or not, that Kotfe would be story driven, chapter based, expansion. So there wasn't any talk about new OPS besides what the community conjured up on their own.

 

You haven't mastered all the OPS in the game on nightmare yet have you? If yes - You should get some air mates.

 

For us who can only play 1-3 hours a day its a great setup at the moment.

[Andryah]

I guess if all you do in the game is run raids, then yeah, you will get bored.

 

Yep.. no matter which MMO you are playing.

 

This class of MMO player really needs to be playing multiple MMOs in some form of rotation because there is no way any MMO can keep up with demand. Sure.. SWTOR is not the best at raid content releases, but they have not said never again (except for NiM) and raids are not the core element that makes this game popular with players a majority of players.

 

But it is an mmorpg, you are not meant to just do one thing, you are meant to enjoy the game by doing a bit of everything . Of course its your choice, but it will just kill the game for you.

 

I agree. In fact this point goes to all the players who only play a narrow segment of an MMO and then complain they are bored and want more new content. I get that some players only want to PvP or Raid, or whatever. But in their case they need to diversify their play across multiple MMOs. If they don't then they are their own adversary in this.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Andryah

[geschmonz]

By using the term "people" you mean "some small toxic minority that wants everything hardcore"?

 

Nearly noone plays raids. Why should Bioware add new raids if noone is playing them?

 

It's way better to focus on single player content.

Edited April 7, 2016 by geschmonz

[Khevar]

Yep, raiders tend to show elitism more than others. They even refuse to nerf the old content to let more people enjoy it after they got it done and had moved on.

1. When the level cap was raised to 55, raiders got SnV / DF / DP. More people runing level 50 ops was fine!

2. When the level cap was raised to 60, raiders got Rav / ToS. More people runing level 50/55 ops was fine!

3. BIOWARE made the decision to rescale the ops to level 65 instead of adding new ops.

 

You're here "sneering" at elitism because raiders "refuse to nerf old content". As if PLAYERS had the ability to nerf content OR prevent nerfs.

 

This is one of the more absurd fallacies I've seen come out of your keyboard in the 3 years I've been arguing with you.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Khevar

[TUXs]

I will say I'm biased though and through that I haven't even tried OPs in SWTOR. Too often in other games have I dealt with insane amounts of drama over raids and raiding in general, received and heard some of the worst verbal abuse possible from 'die hards', been met with hostility for asking a question regarding an unknown/new fight and other similar issues that have made me extremely reluctant to even try in SWTOR.

Awwwwe...I'm sorry to hear that. Ops in SWTOR are nothing like what they had been or are in other games. 4.0 made Ops a casual players dream!!!

 

If you ever want to attempt it, I absolutely suggest joining a PuG for the daily Op - I can almost assure you that you'll be ok and have fun. Not only does your gear get bolstered to HM quality, the mechanics are really subdued and they can be VERY VERY forgiving...unlike HM or NiM.

 

Since it would be your first time, don't be afraid to tell them...most groups would be happy to explain to you...I've only run with one PuG group ever that I think wouldn't have been...but they were all drunk, so...

 

I really urge you to try it. It's nowhere near as scary as it sounds

[LordTurin]

By using the term "people" you mean "some small toxic minority that wants everything hardcore"?

 

Nearly noone plays raids. Why should Bioware add new raids if noone is playing them?

 

It's way better to focus on single player content.

 

What exactly is "nearly noone"? On a fairly regular basis my guild alone has at least 20-25 people (or more) running operations, SM, HM, w/e, and trust me, we are about as far from a "elite raiding guild" as you can possibly get. It is currently 4:30pm on a Thursday, and I see 4 groups running KP, and another 2 groups trying to be formed on fleet (and I am sure that number will go up when it gets to prime time). Is it a minority in the game, sure, but I certainly wouldn't call that no one.

 

And yes, there are toxic players in raids. There are toxic players in PVP. There are toxic players in GSF. There are even toxic players in the story missions (I'm looking at you jerks who were sitting on Zakull

telling people that HK dies

2 hours after KOTFE dropped. You can't just paint a broad brush over an entire subset of the game, especially if you have a very small sample size to do so, as the majority of the "hardcore" raiders I know (and I would guess I know more than you do) are actually very nice people (just like most people in this game) who are more than happy to help out new people in learning the ropes, or just hang out and chat with people.

[Slowpokeking]

Awwwwe...I'm sorry to hear that. Ops in SWTOR are nothing like what they had been or are in other games. 4.0 made Ops a casual players dream!!!

 

If you ever want to attempt it, I absolutely suggest joining a PuG for the daily Op - I can almost assure you that you'll be ok and have fun. Not only does your gear get bolstered to HM quality, the mechanics are really subdued and they can be VERY VERY forgiving...unlike HM or NiM.

 

Since it would be your first time, don't be afraid to tell them...most groups would be happy to explain to you...I've only run with one PuG group ever that I think wouldn't have been...but they were all drunk, so...

 

I really urge you to try it. It's nowhere near as scary as it sounds

 

Wrong, people could get top tier gears much easier, but overall the difficulty is brought up with the level rescale.