Why are people still mad about no new raids?

[IanArgent]

Well, without the corridors, the chapters would be 5 minutes long...

 

Note teh examples I picked - both KotFE locations, neither one has "miles of corridors."

 

Someone said about Star Fortresses: personally, except for getting companions on new toons (now DvL ones, when I get around to it), there is no reason to play them. And they can be easily soloed, so why go in a group? Especially when you have to loot each dead mob in a group? barrels, hilts etc. Do an Ev on 3-4 toons get an MH. Go to vendor get the hilt/barrel, RE, buy crafting mats or just get them through Odessen vendor. bam 220 hilt/barrel. No need to grind SFs.

 

Eternal Championship: ugh, no. All the achievements are for solo content. And again I can solo it. Again why go in a group when you can solo it? And again, I do Eternal Championship only to get Bowdaar. No need to grind it otherwise for some stupid non-moddable gear, or some decos. Let's see if the new weapons are worth it at all. If they are again non-moddable versions, not going to bother.

 

Must be nice to be so good at the game. Not everyone is at that level yet.

 

Group content means content you cannot solo at all. Neither HSFs nor TEC are group content. They are solo content you can also group up for.

 

And one other thing: on a number of my toons, I had done all quests on planets and with the new exploration and stuff, the quests have reappeared. So did the bonus series which I had done. That's not new content either, that's rehashed content. A lot of rehashed content with KOTFE, there was nothing new, nothing you could play for a bit. The best chapter in all of KOTFE was Chapter 2.

 

I want something that is actually group content, something that is really good and not a crappy chapter per month, and an alliance mission per month.

 

Group content was shorted in KotFE; I keep saying that. For reasons good and bad; but it's a fact. HSF and TEC took up the resources that would have porobably been used for Flashpoints/daily zones, and Ops, respectively. And as far as solo repeatable content, I'm disappointed by HSF. TEC is more interesting to me, simply because it's all boss, no trash. Which goes back to my agreement that the miles of corridors design paradigm needs to be allowed to die quietly.

[Rion_Starkiller]

......

 

I think the devs forget, or don't realize, that having max gear is like being max level -- it's the final achievement, the cherry on top. Unfortunately, gear matters about as much as max level. You have to do hard content in order for gear and levels to actually matter.

 

There has been no new group content, nor "hard" content in ages -- it's not just operations/raids.

 

Regarding your CRAFT vs RAID gear posts earlier:

I think everyone would be happy if all content-groups (crafters, raiders, FP'ers, GSF'ers, Conquest'ers, etc) had their own special snowflake gear, whether it be unique appearance, special set bonus, or even special mod/enhancement stat distributions -- or some combination. This gives people some sort of end goal. They may never achieve it, but knowing that it exists gives meaning to the grind.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Rion_Starkiller

[PlasmaJohn]

Operations have served as the major time sink between expansions, but without those, I would say they need to rethink their approach overall for that end game stuff.

IMO they need to rethink a lot of things. They gambled that subscriber churn, sacrificing old subs for new, would be a successful strategy. I say that players are smarter than they think and EA/Austin has just traded $170/yr for $15/yr if that. To break even they'd need 5-10x the current population and that did not happen.

 

They need to abandon their practice of near exclusive focus on one area at a time (story vs. pvp vs. GSF vs. Ops vs. FPs vs. Strongholds). Over the course of an expansion year they need to touch on each area at least once preferably more frequent than that.

 

The problem is resources. Now that I've started the KotFE storyline I'm seeing some very high production values there. Kudos to the artists. Problem is that this is burner content. Like many have pointed out, there's little out there to do that's attractive to people looking for an MMO instead of an on the rails SP game.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Group content was shorted in KotFE; I keep saying that.

 

Great point. And I think "hard" content should be added. Hard content includes all the things that isn't bolstered.

[Slowpokeking]

People on these forums love to say how today's player's are super casual and prefer MOBA's - not to go off on a tangent but I played DOTA2 for a while and it seemed a hell of a lot more intricate than 99% of this game. What am I missing? Is it simply the shorter games?

 

It seems strange to me players who are unwilling to even read a tooltip in this game would find much enjoyment playing DOTA.

 

Or are others easier than DOTA?

 

Not simpler, but shorter and require less effort being spent on forming a group.

[IanArgent]

Great point. And I think "hard" content should be added. Hard content includes all the things that isn't bolstered.

 

"Hard" content is in the same basket as "group" content; more difficult to develop and playtest to.

 

Which doesn't mean it doesn't happen - HSF is the "hardmode" for the solo SF. Not being "difficult enough" for the far-left-hand side of the skills curve isn't exactly a major failing.

[Tanitha]

Must be nice to be so good at the game. Not everyone is at that level yet.

 

I soloed HSFs with mostly some 216 gear. I've done all HSFs achievs within less than a month. But I have spent hours on dummy to get my rotation right at least on my main. Other toons I just read the dulfy guides, get a feel for them. I soloed TEC with a concealment operative with which I am really bad playing with. And with no full set bonus, just a couple 220s and a lot of crystal gear. Yeah, I am good on my main, because, as a raider who wants to clear everything, I have to be as best as I can. I am not the best by far, but try to solo stuff like TEC and HSFs to see how good I can do on a toon.

 

Raiding requires dedication and knowledge of your class. When I leveled my first toons, in order to get to L55 you had to do class story, Fp, planet quests to level. It was the best way to learn your class and powers. I leveled my DvL toons soooo easily now, without needing to do much. Heroics and some tactical Fps and you're L50 quickly. And no real knowledge of your class and spec. Remember waiting for 2x weekends to level new toons, so we had to avoid doing the same planet quests over and over again.

 

Group content was shorted in KotFE; I keep saying that. For reasons good and bad; but it's a fact. HSF and TEC took up the resources that would have porobably been used for Flashpoints/daily zones, and Ops, respectively. And as far as solo repeatable content, I'm disappointed by HSF. TEC is more interesting to me, simply because it's all boss, no trash. Which goes back to my agreement that the miles of corridors design paradigm needs to be allowed to die quietly.

 

TEC is not easily doable unless you know at least a bit of your class. That way it's interesting but it's not worth grinding it, without any real rewards. It has put people off because of that, but they should see it as a challenge to learn more about their class and spec, and understand tactics.

 

Waiting for the October NYCC cantina. I'll see what comes with KOTET, and if it's interesting even if it is solo content, I'll continue my sub after it ends in February. But if they disappoint again, and just give us some new type HSF and a crappy chapter per month, I'll have nothing to do in game any more.

[Rion_Starkiller]

"Hard" content is in the same basket as "group" content; more difficult to develop and playtest to.

 

Sorry if I sound like a jerk, but how would you know? What are your credentials? Do you work in the biz?

 

Which doesn't mean it doesn't happen - HSF is the "hardmode" for the solo SF. Not being "difficult enough" for the far-left-hand side of the skills curve isn't exactly a major failing.

 

Generally, I believe people grow in skill over time, so I suppose that depends on how long the devs intend each person to continue playing their game and subscribing. Are there more vets, or newbies?

[IanArgent]

Sorry if I sound like a jerk, but how would you know? What are your credentials? Do you work in the biz?

 

I used to work in the biz; and I have plenty of friends who still do. And I still keep up on things in the "gaming industry," both computer and tabletop. I still work in systems development, and the old adage about "development will take 90% of your time, and testing will take the other 90%" applies to both fields. I don't work for BW:A, so I can't give details as to how much harder their fluff-vs-crunch equation is

 

 

 

Generally, I believe people grow in skill over time, so I suppose that depends on how long the devs intend each person to continue playing their game and subscribing. Are there more vets, or newbies?

 

Unless they are doing it way wrong, there are always more newbies than vets, in the sense that each month's "cohort" gets smaller every month. If the game isn't growing, it's dying; at least in the long term. This is conventional wisdom in the hobby gaming industry, for very good reason.

[Slowpokeking]

There should more content, yes. It doesn't equal to these should be raid.

 

SWTOR once tried to push on raid after raid, it just didn't work too well especially now.

[Talchia]

I really hope I get my new gear in 5.0 without doing all the same ops again.

[Tanitha]

There should more content, yes. It doesn't equal to these should be raid.

 

SWTOR once tried to push on raid after raid, it just didn't work too well especially now.

 

No it didn't. If you want to raid, that's fine, if you don't that's fine too. But without new raids, new real group content, a lot of people are leaving the game. If BW keeps it up, as they have with KOTFE, they will have no players. Half an hour content per month, and an event where you have to do the same old content again and again is just not enough. I finished DvL event really quick. Just did stuff while queuing for FPs. Did a lot of the tacticals while leveling, and the HMs once I hit 65. Some with guildies, some through gf.

 

The crafting ones were a joke to get. With a lot of toons, and a lot of mats I had gathered, plus the jawa junk I had collected, it was really easy to finish in a few days. Just craft the bonded attachments, and you're done.

 

See, new people in game have a lot of stuff to do. Old players really have nothing to do. BW should cater to both. Keep old players playing the game, and get new ones. But the way they are doing it, they are sending away the old player base, a lot of whom make up the raiding community. And because people leaving, it's harder and harder to do the really fun stuff, which, IMO, is HM and NiM raids. And when new players in a few months will have done most things, and have nothing to do, will they stay? or leave like a number of the older player base? Probably leave, as subbing for half an hour content per month is not enough to keep people in.

 

Raid content works. A lot of raiders have left the game though, because they had done everything, and did not have anything new to do. Some of us still have a few bosses left to kill, so we're staying because of that. After that, and with no real content, as I said, there will be nothing to do in game. BW is killing the game.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Tanitha

[Rion_Starkiller]

I used to work in the biz; and I have plenty of friends who still do. And I still keep up on things in the "gaming industry," both computer and tabletop. I still work in systems development, and the old adage about "development will take 90% of your time, and testing will take the other 90%" applies to both fields. I don't work for BW:A, so I can't give details as to how much harder their fluff-vs-crunch equation is

 

--------------------------

 

Unless they are doing it way wrong, there are always more newbies than vets, in the sense that each month's "cohort" gets smaller every month. If the game isn't growing, it's dying; at least in the long term. This is conventional wisdom in the hobby gaming industry, for very good reason.

 

I guess the important question is: Who is SWTOR creating content for? It seems like the new content is single player story, which is tragic for a massively multiplayer online role-playing game. This same new content is one-dimensional with no replayability. No matter what class you run through it, it's the same.

 

Isn't there enough content for a newbie?

• 8 class stories
  
• 16 total classes that you can learn to play
  
• RotHC
  
• Dreadmaster storyline
  
• SoR
  
• KotFE
  
• Learn to PvP
  
• Tons of side content
  

 

The only hint of future game play that I can think of is dark vs light.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Rion_Starkiller

[Slowpokeking]

No it didn't. If you want to raid, that's fine, if you don't that's fine too. But without new raids, new real group content, a lot of people are leaving the game. If BW keeps it up, as they have with KOTFE, they will have no players. Half an hour content per month, and an event where you have to do the same old content again and again is just not enough. I finished DvL event really quick. Just did stuff while queuing for FPs. Did a lot of the tacticals while leveling, and the HMs once I hit 65. Some with guildies, some through gf.

 

The crafting ones were a joke to get. With a lot of toons, and a lot of mats I had gathered, plus the jawa junk I had collected, it was really easy to finish in a few days. Just craft the bonded attachments, and you're done.

 

See, new people in game have a lot of stuff to do. Old players really have nothing to do. BW should cater to both. Keep old players playing the game, and get new ones. But the way they are doing it, they are sending away the old player base, a lot of whom make up the raiding community. And because people leaving, it's harder and harder to do the really fun stuff, which, IMO, is HM and NiM raids. And when new players in a few months will have done most things, and have nothing to do, will they stay? or leave like a number of the older player base? Probably leave, as subbing for half an hour content per month is not enough to keep people in.

 

Raid content works. A lot of raiders have left the game though, because they had done everything, and did not have anything new to do. Some of us still have a few bosses left to kill, so we're staying because of that. After that, and with no real content, as I said, there will be nothing to do in game. BW is killing the game.

 

What do you mean a lot? Raids cost a lot of effort/money to make, why did they stop? Because it's not worthy to make new ones.

 

People are leaving because of no new content, but it doesn't have to be raid.

[azudelphi]

What do you mean a lot? Raids cost a lot of effort/money to make, why did they stop? Because it's not worthy to make new ones.

 

People are leaving because of no new content, but it doesn't have to be raid.

 

Chapters probably have the highest cost per playtime...

[Slowpokeking]

Chapters probably have the highest cost per playtime...

 

Yes but everybody could experience it as long as you sub, unlike raid.

 

I'm not saying the story way is perfect either, at least there should be repeatable new stuff, but raid is outdated without a lot of rework.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[azudelphi]

Yes but everybody could experience it as long as you sub, unlike raid.

 

I'm not saying the story way is perfect either, at least there should be repeatable new stuff, but raid is outdated without a lot of rework.

I am inclined to think a broad net is required, and raids are part of that. But at this point I would take anything as it would be an improvement.

[VegasTheLost]

Yes but everybody could experience it as long as you sub, unlike raid.

 

Just like raid. Nothing stopping someone to do the raids, but the person who refuse to do them.

[PlasmaJohn]

What do you mean a lot? Raids cost a lot of effort/money to make, why did they stop? Because it's not worthy to make new ones.

 

Six of one, half dozen of the other. It would require the same level of effort to make the story content that people really wanted, 8 new class stories with deep branching and continuation of romances. Even still, story content is pretty much one and done.

 

People are leaving because of no new content, but it doesn't have to be raid.

 

I burned through all eight class stories in four to eight months well before the new hyperacellerated xp rate lets you bypass the side missions. I just finished SoR+Ziost -twice- including the four FP's in less than a week. I'm going to finish KotFE no later than this weekend (that's without spacebarring).

 

It took my guild several months each to beat SnV, TfB, DF and DP on HM. All through that period I maintained a sub. For the story I only need to re-up for one month every year or two to catch up.

 

Which type of content had a better Return on Investment for EA? Here's a hint: For every lost fan of group content they'd have to pick up 12-24 folks that flit in and out to burn through story content just to break even.

Edited September 7, 2016 by PlasmaJohn

[Slowpokeking]

Just like raid. Nothing stopping someone to do the raids, but the person who refuse to do them.

 

Yeah, without a group just step in and get killed for nothing.

[Slowpokeking]

Six of one, half dozen of the other. It would require the same level of effort to make the story content that people really wanted, 8 new class stories with deep branching and continuation of romances. Even still, story content is pretty much one and done.

 

I burned through all eight class stories in four to eight months well before the new hyperacellerated xp rate lets you bypass the side missions. I just finished SoR+Ziost -twice- including the four FP's in less than a week. I'm going to finish KotFE no later than this weekend (that's without spacebarring).

 

It took my guild several months each to beat SnV, TfB, DF and DP on HM. All through that period I maintained a sub. For the story I only need to re-up for one month every year or two to catch up.

 

Which type of content had a better Return on Investment for EA? Here's a hint: For every lost fan of group content they'd have to pick up 12-24 folks that flit in and out to burn through story content just to break even.

 

The former one.

 

Everybody could experience the story, not everyone could experience the raid content, especially HM. O It's not just difficulty, but you need a group, a stable group, not pugs to go through all the wipes to beat it. How many people still want to do it? Only 8% of the people was doing ToS HM during SoR. THIS is why they stopped to make new raid content.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[IanArgent]

Chapters probably have the highest cost per playtime...

 

It's the up-front "cost," not the per-play-hour. At any rate, we're not paying per play hour; we're paying per subscription month.

[Slowpokeking]

Yeah, KOTFE story is not awesome, especially the ending. It should add more repeatable elements, sure.

 

But at least whenever i want to play it, I can log on, click start and play it. Raid? NO, I have to find a guild, stick with them, follow their schedule and endure all the waiting/afk/wipe quit whatever. A lot of the effort is spent on these social issues rather than the content itself. I don't get to touch the content if I don't want to spend so much effort on it.

 

That is the problem, that is how the players are changing, they no longer want to spend so much effort on socialization and waiting in a game, they want to rock on whenever they want to.

[azudelphi]

The former one.

 

Everybody could experience the story, not everyone could experience the raid content, especially HM. O It's not just difficulty, but you need a group, a stable group, not pugs to go through all the wipes to beat it. How many people still want to do it? Only 8% of the people was doing ToS HM during SoR. THIS is why they stopped to make new raid content.

 

10% of all accounts were doing hard modes? That means approximately 10% of all accounts were subscribing to with raids in mind. How do you rationally discount that as a group they should keep?

 

What percent of subscribing accounts were part of that player demographic? I bet 8% only would only head north with that.

 

Long story short, the only, and I mean only reason I see worthwhile to sub moving forward in terms of value is if more repeatable group content is added. Operations top the list. 1 chapter per month and 1 chapter at the end is not there in terms of value.

[Tsetso]

It's the up-front "cost," not the per-play-hour. At any rate, we're not paying per play hour; we're paying per subscription month.

 

And the content you have for that month is directly correlated to the value of subscription. Or you haven't seen all the posts of people stating that they intend to sub at the end of kotet to play the whole story.