New Chapter: Visions in the dark - Post your thoughts

[Slowpokeking]

What's 'wrong' with Gray Jedi, or with neutrality?

 

My main/most frequently played character is a Jedi Knight. She fully understands the Light side, she understands though doesn't always abide the Code. She's good and does the right thing for as much as she can (aka the game allows) however, she does also have a mind of her own. She was forced to train as a Sith acolyte for several months while under the Emperor's control and through that, as well as her companionship with Lord Scourge, she's learned there's far more to the Force than that which the Light allows Jedi to know/utilize. Understanding the Dark side and embracing both sides of the Force while balancing it with her own moral code makes her a stronger and better fighter. It, in my opinion and hers for my headcanon, gives her more of an edge. I don't see how that's a bad plot or what's wrong with that.

 

I do understand the upset when the game FORCES that neutrality onto your character though. I have a Sith who I've deliberately been steering into Dark V and who now, due to KotFE's storytelling and design, struggles as the DS choices tend to be outrageous and make her look dumb rather than strong and powerful.

 

Nothing wrong with Grey Jedi, the problem is to put their way above others.

[Max_Killjoy]

What's 'wrong' with Gray Jedi, or with neutrality?

 

My main/most frequently played character is a Jedi Knight. She fully understands the Light side, she understands though doesn't always abide the Code. She's good and does the right thing for as much as she can (aka the game allows) however, she does also have a mind of her own. She was forced to train as a Sith acolyte for several months while under the Emperor's control and through that, as well as her companionship with Lord Scourge, she's learned there's far more to the Force than that which the Light allows Jedi to know/utilize. Understanding the Dark side and embracing both sides of the Force while balancing it with her own moral code makes her a stronger and better fighter. It, in my opinion and hers for my headcanon, gives her more of an edge. I don't see how that's a bad plot or what's wrong with that.

 

I do understand the upset when the game FORCES that neutrality onto your character though. I have a Sith who I've deliberately been steering into Dark V and who now, due to KotFE's storytelling and design, struggles as the DS choices tend to be outrageous and make her look dumb rather than strong and powerful.

 

There's a subgroup of the broader Star Wars fandom who embrace the Jedi dogma as absolutely truth about all things Force-related, and insist that Star Wars is a "modern fairy tale" replete with the "just so" elements and a simple unquestioned morality.

 

To them, any sort of moral complexity or ambiguity, or suggestion that light-dark and good-evil might be two different axes on a philosophical analysis, rather than synonymous scales, is akin to heresy and violating what they view as the spirit and principles of Star Wars.

[Slowpokeking]

Also how is Arcann a neutral character? He is no different than Sith, especially the lust to succeed his father.

[Newyankalt]

Palpatine lost to Windu because it was just an act to attract Anakin. Yoda did use Force against Palpatine in the fight.

 

Darth Nox is mostly a sorcerer.

 

Yup I could see the conversation after "Yup I lost to Windu so I could manipulate you to the dark side Idiot" or "I lost to Windu because I was using a lightsaber"

[Temeluchus]

What's 'wrong' with Gray Jedi, or with neutrality?

 

My main/most frequently played character is a Jedi Knight. She fully understands the Light side, she understands though doesn't always abide the Code. She's good and does the right thing for as much as she can (aka the game allows) however, she does also have a mind of her own. She was forced to train as a Sith acolyte for several months while under the Emperor's control and through that, as well as her companionship with Lord Scourge, she's learned there's far more to the Force than that which the Light allows Jedi to know/utilize. Understanding the Dark side and embracing both sides of the Force while balancing it with her own moral code makes her a stronger and better fighter. It, in my opinion and hers for my headcanon, gives her more of an edge. I don't see how that's a bad plot or what's wrong with that.

 

I do understand the upset when the game FORCES that neutrality onto your character though. I have a Sith who I've deliberately been steering into Dark V and who now, due to KotFE's storytelling and design, struggles as the DS choices tend to be outrageous and make her look dumb rather than strong and powerful.

 

I personally have no problem with gray Jedi but I am always reminded of how it is an EU/Legends thing. GL intended for the Force to have Dark/Light and that's it. Point at Qui-Gon all you want, but he was intended as a light sider.

 

But like I said, I have no problem with gray Jedi. If we were living in the SW universe I'd wager the gray population would far outnumber the Jedi or Sith.

[Quraswren]

What's 'wrong' with Gray Jedi, or with neutrality?

 

Nothing wrong with it right up to the point you mention:

 

I do understand the upset when the game FORCES that neutrality onto your character though. SNIP....

 

and there is the problem I think some have. They have already made the choice of LS or DS not the middle ground but oh well.

[Slowpokeking]

There's a subgroup of the broader Star Wars fandom who embrace the Jedi dogma as absolutely truth about all things Force-related, and insist that Star Wars is a "modern fairy tale" replete with the "just so" elements and a simple unquestioned morality.

 

To them, any sort of moral complexity or ambiguity, or suggestion that light-dark and good-evil might be two different axes on a philosophical analysis, rather than synonymous scales, is akin to heresy and violating what they view as the spirit and principles of Star Wars.

No, neutral is ok. Even in the OT, the story showed us that there is no absolute right and wrong, good and evil upon Vader's road.

 

But they are not better than others, put them above Jedi and Sith is the problem.

[JennyFlynn]

Also how is Arcann a neutral character? He is no different than Sith, especially the lust to succeed his father.

 

He's akin to Sith in our eyes because that's how we know the world to be. Sith or Jedi. Both Zakuul and Odessen though are entirely different when it comes to the Force. Arcann wasn't raised in a world where he had to be either good or bad, dark or light. He grew up and trained in a world where all aspects of the Force are embraced and where Sith/Jedi didn't exist. Where there's just the Force and where, to them, the Force isn't divided between good or evil. That's why, despite his wrongdoings, he's a neutral Force user.

[Jedi_riches]

There is a inherent problem with the phrase 'grey Jedi' people take it to mean one of the following:-

 

1) A Jedi who does not follow the will of the jedi council, these jedi still tend to follow the light side though.

 

2) A force user that has mastered the balance between the light side and dark side.

 

While interesting I don't believe that the 2nd option is really ever going to work as someone will always lean towards one side and as Yoda once said 'once you start down the dark path etc...

 

I think the 'grey' and beyond light side and dark side means is not staying within the trappings of the jedi or the sith as both place limitations on what they think is possible (for a sith I feel that this means its actually trapping you with your own passions).

 

As for Arcann being neutral I think it simply means that he does not conform to either the jedi or sith philosophies.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Jedi_riches

[Slowpokeking]

He's akin to Sith in our eyes because that's how we know the world to be. Sith or Jedi. Both Zakuul and Odessen though are entirely different when it comes to the Force. Arcann wasn't raised in a world where he had to be either good or bad, dark or light. He grew up and trained in a world where all aspects of the Force are embraced and where Sith/Jedi didn't exist. Where there's just the Force and where, to them, the Force isn't divided between good or evil. That's why, despite his wrongdoings, he's a neutral Force user.

 

But the light side of the Force would not obey his call when he is committing such tyranny. No matter how did they view the Force themselves, there are light and dark side.

[Max_Killjoy]

But the light side of the Force would not obey his call when he is committing such tyranny. No matter how did they view the Force themselves, there are light and dark side.

 

OR... the Force just is, the Jedi and Sith teachings are like the blind man and the elephant... and what you get out of the Force results from what you put into it....

[Slowpokeking]

There is a inherent problem with the phrase 'grey Jedi' people take it to mean one of the following:-

 

1) A Jedi who does not follow the will of the jedi council, these jedi still tend to follow the light side though.

 

2) A force user that has mastered the balance between the light side and dark side.

 

While interesting I don't believe that the 2nd option is really ever going to work as someone will always lean towards one side and as Yoda once said 'once you start down the dark path etc...

 

I think the 'grey' and beyond light side and dark side means is not staying within the trappings of the jedi or the sith as both place limitations on what they think is possible (for a sith I feel that this means its actually trapping you with your own passions).

 

As for Arcann being neutral I think it simply means that he does not conform to either the jedi or sith philosophies.

 

Then he should still be a Dark Side user, not neutral.

[Slowpokeking]

OR... the Force just is, the Jedi and Sith teachings are like the blind man and the elephant... and what you get out of the Force results from what you put into it....

 

But even the non Jedi/Sith(Dark Jedi, Rakata, Voss and all the organizations) have to choose between light/dark side. Even the Je'daii admitted there are two sides. Even Revan, who was the perfect example of "grey Jedi", use light and dark side.

 

It exists no matter what kind of philosophy you have.

[Codedrago]

OR... the Force just is, the Jedi and Sith teachings are like the blind man and the elephant... and what you get out of the Force results from what you put into it....

 

I'm pretty sure the force acts on emotion, not your morality. It's just leaning towards one allinment makes it hard to channel the other allinment in battle. Or is that wrong?

[JennyFlynn]

But the light side of the Force would not obey his call when he is committing such tyranny. No matter how did they view the Force themselves, there are light and dark side.

 

Says who though? Did the Force itself come forth and say "I have a Light side and a Dark side, choose which you wish to honor"? I think the Dark/Light side divide and limitations were applied by those who wished to do good by means of the Force, aka the Jedi and those who maintained a more questionable moral code while wielding the Force. If I recall, weren't all Force users once united until a certain group split off and later became the Sith? And what of the Voss Mystics then who're neither dark or light and who aren't Sith or Jedi? They too are a different group of Force users altogether.

[Codedrago]

 

and there is the problem I think some have. They have already made the choice of LS or DS not the middle ground but oh well.

 

You're never forced to be neutral, in this chapter you get to straight up say that you're happy being LS/DS and will stick to it.

[Jedi_riches]

Personally I liked the way the NJO books took it where the force was just the force and that it was the user that decided how it was used with none of this LS and DS stuff where people could not say 'the dark side made me do it' and that the Darkness was in their own hearts.

[Slowpokeking]

Says who though? Did the Force itself come forth and say "I have a Light side and a Dark side, choose which you wish to honor"? I think the Dark/Light side divide and limitations were applied by those who wished to do good by means of the Force, aka the Jedi and those who maintained a more questionable moral code while wielding the Force. If I recall, weren't all Force users once united until a certain group split off and later became the Sith? And what of the Voss Mystics then who're neither dark or light and who aren't Sith or Jedi? They too are a different group of Force users altogether.

It got nothing to do the Jedi and Sith, the Ones are the perfect example of Light/Dark exists even before the Jedi and Sith, even before the Rakata Empire exists.

 

Yes, the Je'daii Order, and they made clear that there are two sides of the Force. They split and had war because of this.

[Slowpokeking]

Personally I liked the way the NJO books took it where the force was just the force and that it was the user that decided how it was used with none of this LS and DS stuff where people could not say 'the dark side made me do it' and that the Darkness was in their own hearts.

 

What happened to Jacen Solo then?

[Slowpokeking]

I'm pretty sure the force acts on emotion, not your morality. It's just leaning towards one allinment makes it hard to channel the other allinment in battle. Or is that wrong?

 

No, when Luke got angry, he wasn't channeling the Dark Side.

[JennyFlynn]

It got nothing to do the Jedi and Sith, the Ones are the perfect example of Light/Dark exists even before the Jedi and Sith, even before the Rakata Empire exists.

 

Yes, the Je'daii Order, and they made clear that there are two sides of the Force. They split and had war because of this.

 

But what makes the Light and Dark side exist, exactly? Does it exist all on it's own or does it stem from our own choices, our morality, how we choose to wield the power of the Force and what we do with it? In my opinion, the Force is simply that. It's the Force and it's a tool but it's the end user who decides whether it's Light or Dark, good or bad. Or in some cases, neutral.

[Jedi_riches]

What happened to Jacen Solo then?

 

They changed writers and screwed up the whole philosophy and as a consequence screwed up Jacens character too.

[Codedrago]

No, when Luke got angry, he wasn't channeling the Dark Side.

 

He was, actually. That's why Sidious was so happy at thsoe points, Luke was giving in to his anger. When Vader mentions Leia and when he tried to kill Sidious.

[Slowpokeking]

But what makes the Light and Dark side exist, exactly? Does it exist all on it's own or does it stem from our own choices, our morality, how we choose to wield the power of the Force and what we do with it? In my opinion, the Force is simply that. It's the Force and it's a tool but it's the end user who decides whether it's Light or Dark, good or bad. Or in some cases, neutral.

 

The setting of the Force? It exists on its own and you can pick a side based on your path.

 

Yeah you can choose to wield both sides, but it doesn't mean there is no light/dark side. It doesn't make you more powerful. Actually because you have to keep the balance, it limited you from going to the top of either side. Even Revan is not stronger than some of the pure light/dark side users.

[Slowpokeking]

He was, actually. That's why Sidious was so happy at thsoe points, Luke was giving in to his anger. When Vader mentions Leia and when he tried to kill Sidious.

 

He wasn't, he was just getting close to the path. This made Sidious happy.

 

If you read novel there are description of Anakin/Luke gets angry, but they are not on the Dark Side, just was getting close to it.