Populations Dropping. Speculation Thread...

[Kordine]

Premades have always been around. It's too easy for some people to blame them. For me the 65 Multi Sorc healer no dies meta is the biggest turn off. I have been playing more mids and lowbies recently because it's just more fun. Starting to notice the pop times increase though. On SL for instance it's pretty much 65 only past 11pm central.

[LadyDarkkitten]

Premades affect imps too you know. when 80% of your matchs are Imp v Imp and theres about 20 imps queueing (late at night) and its the same decent premade thats queueing... well after the 3rd massacre you start checking if they are on your team or not. If you didnt hit the jackpot, some leave wz and go do the gtn for 10 mins.

 

If your having to cap conquest though you don't have that option, so you get dunked on farmed and generally have a bad time. Then you hit the jackpot next match and end up on their team. YEY! except they totally dominate the other guys. You get to join in the killing spree, but no ones under any illusions you are affecting the outcome of the match and nobody will be voting you MVP. If you want to just chill guarding a node tabbed out thats cool they will win it for you. Or join in the slaughter. Doesn't matter. You end up feeling erm I think the terms "learned helplessness"?

 

 

Its this learned helplessness that made me quit back in 1.x trying to finish 2000 wzs wearing recruit gear versus the elite warheros. When you can't win why bother playing? like seriously? whats the point.

[Lhancelot]

premades affect imps too you know. When 80% of your matchs are imp v imp and theres about 20 imps queueing (late at night) and its the same decent premade thats queueing... Well after the 3rd massacre you start checking if they are on your team or not. If you didnt hit the jackpot, some leave wz and go do the gtn for 10 mins.

 

If your having to cap conquest though you don't have that option, so you get dunked on farmed and generally have a bad time. Then you hit the jackpot next match and end up on their team. Yey! Except they totally dominate the other guys. You get to join in the killing spree, but no ones under any illusions you are affecting the outcome of the match and nobody will be voting you mvp. If you want to just chill guarding a node tabbed out thats cool they will win it for you. Or join in the slaughter. Doesn't matter. You end up feeling erm i think the terms "learned helplessness"?

 

 

Its this learned helplessness that made me quit back in 1.x trying to finish 2000 wzs wearing recruit gear versus the elite warheros. When you can't win why bother playing? Like seriously? Whats the point.

 

impremades are the ruination of swtor pvp!!! Down with the imps!!!!

[PlagaNerezza]

One sorc healer can easily outheal 2 good dps and up to 5 mediocre (i.e. 1kdps champs).

One sorc healer can kite up to 3 melee dps due to bubble flash almost indefinitely.

 

You're right of course about bad teams. That is also a factor.

 

Add a guard to that and its even more frustrating.

[PlagaNerezza]

Go ahead. Tell us how you really feel, some more.

 

Because in the end of every "premade" discussion, premade-apologists just revert to that attitude: "this is the reality, you ain't gonna be able to do shi* about how we walk all over you, so bite me. :D"

 

Of course, nothing personal -- just pointing out that the trend of discussions and debates associated with premades, in the end, just all flow this way -- regardless of what game you are playing. The exact same thing happened with my last game, which I now disclose to be Neverwinter, by Cryptic. The premade situation there... horrific. The queue takes more than 50 mins to get even a single match, and that single match you spend most of your time being spawncamped, if you're not a premade. The PvP's effectively dead. And some of the most prominent and notorious premades/guilds are nowadays actually offering to split up people and not make premades...

 

...of course, everything's too little, too late there. It's gone. PvP. Luckily, SWTOR isn't there yet. But don't doubt even a second that its coming.

 

It just makes me wonder, just which part of "Pick on somebody your own size" you guys cannot understand. Rather, you guys are saying, "If you don't like being bullied, c'mon, grow up to our size and stand before us". Really?

 

This is really annoying. Stop posting this nonsense. Pre-mades don't ruin PVP. You are blaming the players for game flaws. Grouping should be encouraged. If Bioware did its job this wouldn't be a problem. They have over tuned Heals. It has rendered half the maps unplayable. They have a terrible matching system that just throws together random groups without any compositional integrity. They have PVE class balance mucking up PVP to the point players are literally disgusted. Its not magical and its not the players fault. A team running Sorc Heals with a guard and 2 good DPS on chat is at a significant tactical advantage.

 

Bioware developers know what the metrics say. Nerf heals and guard. The maps are to small for all this movement buff. The engine needs a break with tuning down the animations. But none of this will happen. Its an old game. Just play the FOTM and group. It literally takes seconds to do it. I am not sure why people still whine on this. Its been how many years? You know you gotta make a viable team. Why you solo queue and whine is beyond me.

 

Solo queue alone and you will run into a team who wants to win. You want to win group up. Otherwise don't whine.

[Opaknack]

The problem in pvp for newbies (or weak player) are not the premades. A premade of 4 players are still only 4 players.

The problem are good players in the opposing team.

If they are in a premade or not it doesn't matter.

4 newbies (or weak players) as a premade remains still 4 weak players. And 2 premades are 8 weak players.

 

But the most important thing is... playing in a group with friends helps to become a better player.

 

And i have no longer mercy with all the arrogant noobs with no augments, no crystals in the weapon, 500dps for example in voidstar and above all when they flame me when i give them a friendly hint.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Opaknack

[TUXs]

• lack of balance (#1 by FAR!!!)

• lack of new maps

• lack of development

• lack of players

[PlagaNerezza]

The problem in pvp for newbies (or weak player) are not the premades. A premade of 4 players are still only 4 players.

The problem are good players in the opposing team.

If they are in a premade or not it doesn't matter.

4 newbies (or weak players) as a premade remains still 4 weak players. And 2 premades are 8 weak players.

 

But the most important thing is... playing in a group with friends helps to become a better player.

 

And i have no longer mercy with all the arrogant noobs with no augments, no crystals in the weapon, 500dps for example in voidstar and above all when they flame me when i give them a friendly hint.

 

Except if they are the FOTM. Then they just have to bang their hands on the keyboard and poof! Wins. Assuming you are able to drool on your keyboard and guard the healer and know how to taunt and run around in circles its a joke. Crystals? Augments? Pft.... You don't need that. Just a tank and a sorc healer. Now run around in circles and laugh.

[Lhancelot]

This is really annoying. Stop posting this nonsense. Pre-mades don't ruin PVP. You are blaming the players for game flaws. Grouping should be encouraged. If Bioware did its job this wouldn't be a problem. They have over tuned Heals. It has rendered half the maps unplayable. They have a terrible matching system that just throws together random groups without any compositional integrity. They have PVE class balance mucking up PVP to the point players are literally disgusted. Its not magical and its not the players fault. A team running Sorc Heals with a guard and 2 good DPS on chat is at a significant tactical advantage.

 

Bioware developers know what the metrics say. Nerf heals and guard. The maps are to small for all this movement buff. The engine needs a break with tuning down the animations. But none of this will happen. Its an old game. Just play the FOTM and group. It literally takes seconds to do it. I am not sure why people still whine on this. Its been how many years? You know you gotta make a viable team. Why you solo queue and whine is beyond me.

 

Solo queue alone and you will run into a team who wants to win. You want to win group up. Otherwise don't whine.

 

This is awesome, this guy puts it straight. That's exactly how I feel about it too. The process of how PUGs are formed makes solo queing worse than it has to be, some minimal matchmaking would go a long way.

 

Yes, sorcs are overhealing, but mercs are underhealing etc. There are some class balance differences that could be adjusted and that would create more competitive fun matches with more variance in classes involved.

 

Sadly, there is zero matchmaking in regs, making it near necessity to create a premade to ensure that you are not grouped with a herd of mouth breathers, as well as you have a chance to have a fairly class-balanced group.

[PlagaNerezza]

This is awesome, this guy puts it straight. That's exactly how I feel about it too. The process of how PUGs are formed makes solo queing worse than it has to be, some minimal matchmaking would go a long way.

 

Yes, sorcs are overhealing, but mercs are underhealing etc. There are some class balance differences that could be adjusted and that would create more competitive fun matches with more variance in classes involved.

 

Sadly, there is zero matchmaking in regs, making it near necessity to create a premade to ensure that you are not grouped with a herd of mouth breathers, as well as you have a chance to have a fairly class-balanced group.

 

The only thing I disagree with is that merc heals underperform. What all Merc's lack is escapability. A tunnelled merc has a hard time. It cannot stealth out. Phasewalk. Its escape mechanic is terrible when compared to its healers friends. I think Merc healing is probably fine as a number, its just not at all friendly for PVP were a healer is marked and focus targeted.

[Mikeieveli]

Go ahead. Tell us how you really feel, some more.

 

Because in the end of every "premade" discussion, premade-apologists just revert to that attitude: "this is the reality, you ain't gonna be able to do shi* about how we walk all over you, so bite me. :D"

 

Of course, nothing personal -- just pointing out that the trend of discussions and debates associated with premades, in the end, just all flow this way -- regardless of what game you are playing. The exact same thing happened with my last game, which I now disclose to be Neverwinter, by Cryptic. The premade situation there... horrific. The queue takes more than 50 mins to get even a single match, and that single match you spend most of your time being spawncamped, if you're not a premade. The PvP's effectively dead. And some of the most prominent and notorious premades/guilds are nowadays actually offering to split up people and not make premades...

 

...of course, everything's too little, too late there. It's gone. PvP. Luckily, SWTOR isn't there yet. But don't doubt even a second that its coming.

 

It just makes me wonder, just which part of "Pick on somebody your own size" you guys cannot understand. Rather, you guys are saying, "If you don't like being bullied, c'mon, grow up to our size and stand before us". Really?

 

Please go post this in a Premade thread. Kthxbye

[Lhancelot]

The only thing I disagree with is that merc heals underperform. What all Merc's lack is escapability. A tunnelled merc has a hard time. It cannot stealth out. Phasewalk. Its escape mechanic is terrible when compared to its healers friends. I think Merc healing is probably fine as a number, its just not at all friendly for PVP were a healer is marked and focus targeted.

 

Yep. And that's why no one plays merc heals now, because they are the least capable and self-reliant healer of the three.

 

I also would say merc heals lack punch on their heals or have a much less efficient manner to heal, if they were equally efficient numberswise you'd see some really high records regarding their heal parses, and you don't.

 

Even those awesome rare merc healers who run in strong premades still do not match the healing output of an ops healer or a sorc healer. No matter what, they can't.

 

So in a nutshell, they heal for less, and have zero escapes or ways to manage tunneled damage in PVP. Pretty much a bad apple all the way around imo.

 

I simply can't change my opinion on it, I play sorc heals, and merc heals. One is too well equipped with escapes and strong heals while the other has no escapes and has an easily shutdown healing method.

[ahzecklawd]

There's no reason to speculate,it's way too obvious.Y'know,if you give a 8y.o Candy,at first he'll enjoy them,but at some Point,he'll get tired of eating the same Candy over and over again ^^.

 

 

Moar Feedback plux.We fux gume,nu prolem wa Bioware.

Edited April 4, 2016 by ahzecklawd

[Morteistno]

Think there are many reasons...

 

* the new star wars movie effect is over and with the speed of levelling nowadays + the l60 tokens I imagine a lot of the new players have left the game again

 

* the monthly stories. The first char I played chapters 1-9 on I loved the story (the combat not so much)... but it has very limited replayability and doing it with multiple chars quickly becomes a bore.. So I guess like a lot of players I let my sub run out sometimes for a month or two so there is something new when I log in again

 

For PVP specific

 

* the much easier pvp equipment grinding, now mind you I think this is a very good thing as a whole. But once you have the 208 set a big part of the motivation to play the same warzones again and again and again is gone.

 

* the very much missed opportunity of the pvp community in itself to attract a lot of pve'ers who tried it out due to the companion quest. For sure Bioware could have done something here to make it not so big a step. And yes, I get inwardly at least annoyed as well when you queue and notice half of your team is running around with about 1000 expertise at level 65. I guess the large majority of pvp players is like that, they may be a bit annoyed but they will remain quiet and suck it up.

 

A small minority however are purely vitriolic people, that seem to have been waiting on a clueless newbie to start insulting them in any way imaginable. I think this much more than anything else turns new people off. I also always wonder what these people are like in real life. Very frustrated and unhappy I guess, (mind you you find these people in pve as well.. they are not exclusive to pvp)

 

* premades. Yes they do suck the fun out of it and I think they are much worse than class imbalance in itself. The class imbalance is (really) bad, but at the least that feels like 50/50 odds. Having undergeared or new players in your team is bad as well, but again feels like 50/50 odds. Having a premade on your side are a lot worse than 50/50 odds though. as of the 12 spots remaining only 4 solo queuers will be 'lucky' enough to be on the side of the premade. (not that I particularly enjoy that scenario either)

 

(And no it is not Bioware's fault other than that they should either completely disallow them in solo queue or change matchmaking so that a premade only gets to play if there is also a premade at the other side. Or even better if there are two premades on each side. I do not particularly enjoy it if I am 'lucky' enough to have one on my side and none on the other side either.

 

Then again I am pretty sure that if they were to implement such a change most premades would immeadiately fall apart... if they just enjoy the group play so much and it is not because of the advantage it gives versus solo players group ranked should be booming)

[Kordine]

11pm central and only Harb has standard pop showing. Apart from Friday this is the new norm it seems. Sad.

[Bobbafatter]

Please go post this in a Premade thread. Kthxbye

 

Why, this is highly relevant. Premade vs pug is by far the worst serious balance issue in the game and certainly the reason why so few PvP. This game needs a proper solo queue, matchmaking and cross faction ASAP.

[kweassa]

Why, this is highly relevant. Premade vs pug is by far the worst serious balance issue in the game and certainly the reason why so few PvP. This game needs a proper solo queue, matchmaking and cross faction ASAP.

 

Is it any wonder some people would rather that this doesn't turn into a very specific, forum topic tendency?

 

Logically speaking, premade apologists don't really have anything going for them. Especially when people are saying its OK to make premades, but just be sure to seperate them from solo queuers and be matched with other premades through matchmaking. There isn't any grounds for them to object to these line of suggestions openly -- as long as they remain in that facade where they pretend that premades isn't about winning easy, but about playing an honest, good game with your guildies and friends, and about competitive fights and good organized gameplay.

 

I mean hey, then what's to object about matchmaking?

 

- The premades don't get to bother solos, so they aren't flamed anymore.

- The solo queuers get what they want -- a match where random teaming happens to both sides equally.

- Solo queueing numbers will return, since they know they won't be ROFLstomped every night.

- The premades get what they want -- they'll always be able to fight against other premades.

 

The only drawback is that possibly, premade-queue times will be longer. But no sweat. With the huge numbers advantage the Imps have in all servers, you can be sure that plenty of premade vs. premade matches will still happen reasonably often -- its just that all the Imp premades will usually be fighting the same Imp premades -- but really, this is through their own doing, since nobody exactly forced them to all flock to the Imperial faction. They did that to themselves, so they don't really have anyone else to blame, do they.

 

So, to paraphrase their own favorite logic(i.e. "If you don't like premades, make a premade yourselves") towards themselves, "If they don't like fighting same Imp vs Imp every time, they should switch over to Reps themselves and form a Rep premade". Let's see if they can gladly do what they've been recommending to others who have suffered under their hand for so long. I mean, just imagine how many vs Imps matches you'll be having if you're a Rep premade. It'll be like the only sexy, single woman stranded on an island full of sexy men!

 

...

 

No reason to object to this at all, according to most of the self-described "agenda" most premade players and apologists seem to give us. Solo players made it clear that "we don't want to play with you". The system didn't give solo players any choice. So now, if matchmaking is working, then a choice is given. If solo players are bored with the lameness and low-standards of solo queues, they can make a premade themselves, and then go join premade queues! In reverse, premade players also have the same choice. If they tire of super-competitive fighting all the time, so hectic and intense, they can break up the premade, and join solo queues for relaxing matches, right? Equal opportunity, equal choice for both.

 

Everything is perfectly fair for everyone. Everyone gets what they want. So then, why are most premade players and apologists objecting the implementation of matchmaking?

 

Its really a no-brainer if you think about it. There's only ONE reason.

Edited April 5, 2016 by kweassa

[PlagaNerezza]

Why, this is highly relevant. Premade vs pug is by far the worst serious balance issue in the game and certainly the reason why so few PvP. This game needs a proper solo queue, matchmaking and cross faction ASAP.

 

No MMO needs a solo queue were you cannot group with friends and play together. I agree that the team composition needs to be better and pulling from multiple servers is a huge plus. Cross faction? Sure.

 

What I don't like is when a player blames the players for grouping. You are fundamentally supposed to form a group in an MMO. The entire game and genre is about questing and grouping with friends. It drives my absolutely crazy to read threads bashing the players for grouping and queuing.

 

If you want to play alone MMO's are not for you. They are almost certainly not going to be designed for you. The entire solo play group content is exceptionally terrible for an MMO company to push forward. Instead of fixing the grouping mechanics Bioware has introduced solo everything. Next up will be Solo operations.

 

Solo play is fine to an extent. No one wants to group to level. Its more fun, but come on. Don't be mad because you got beat by a group when you refuse to even try and group up. Its literally the worst commentary and feedback. I want to play alone against other players and win and cannot in an MMO? That is seriously your complaint? Tell me you've got more than that as an issue? I mean I want 100 million credits to go on a crazy GTN shopping spree. If we are granting dumb requests start with mine.

Edited April 5, 2016 by PlagaNerezza

[Ayakin_Solaris]

I agree with this. At launch the devs said that they were going to be committed to PvP and providing the players with an enjoyable PvP experience. They have been limited by the engine, which is the inherent problem. Most of their issues come from this. Illum, cross-server, [fill in the blank] etc. What they really need to do is follow the what Final Fantasy did. REPLACE THE ENGINE WITH AN UPGRADED VERSION.

 

This would take easily a year, and would cost money. But while they are doing that they could implement things this current engine could not handle. Then this game would be what it was intended to be. Bugs have been worked out, cartel market has been implemented.

 

BioWare and EA, think about it. By changing the engine alone that would bring a high influx of players, plus all the game designs you intend or want to implement would bring about another high influx of players. Think of all the CM items that would be sold. You would easily make your money back and see record profits! Now wouldnt that make your shareholders happy? Just invest a little bit more, and in return you will get a lot back!

 

Wish they would do this, but they won't. They are gonna just milk this cash cow for all that its worth now with minimum effort (as evidenced by lack of real new content in this game or concern with cash balance for a long time now).

[Kordine]

They removed the population indicator from the server select screen. Head in the sand much?

[Lhancelot]

They removed the population indicator from the server select screen. Head in the sand much?

 

When all the servers are lightly populated, I guess a population indicator is not needed.

[MotorCityMan]

Negative speculation is just an exercise for trolls.