Are ops/raids outdated?

[Slowpokeking]

Because it's new to them?

 

You're the one obsessed with new new new content -- to a new player, all content is new.

 

~~~~

 

What is it with the obsessive posting we're seeing lately on certain topics by a handful of posters?

 

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hobbyhorse

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bugbear

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/compulsion

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/obsession

 

But they are going to catch with the brand new ones, especially for group content because everyone else is doing it.

[Eldren]

But they are going to catch with the brand new ones, especially for group content because everyone else is doing it.

 

Or they'll hook up with an awesome guild who's excited to have someone legitimately new to the game, who will then run them through the original stuff and give them all the time they need to enjoy the story, and improve their experience overall, netting the guild a loyal member who's excited to go do new content with them and will try their best because of the initial investment the guild made in them.

 

Also, the "everyone else is doing it" line doesn't hold true very well. Don't underestimate the individualistic nature of many gamers.

[Slowpokeking]

Or they'll hook up with an awesome guild who's excited to have someone legitimately new to the game, who will then run them through the original stuff and give them all the time they need to enjoy the story, and improve their experience overall, netting the guild a loyal member who's excited to go do new content with them and will try their best because of the initial investment the guild made in them.

 

Also, the "everyone else is doing it" line doesn't hold true very well. Don't underestimate the individualistic nature of many gamers.

Why? Why would these people want to do those old ops for months which doesn't even provide top tier gears anymore and leave the new content aside?

 

How many of these "awesome guild" exist? Which they would spend many of their crew to help newbies on NIM OLD ops rather than the new one? It will take at least months for them to beat these old ops before they were able to move on new ones, and they had to start from SM to HM then NIM.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[IanArgent]

Why would new players choose to do the old ones over the new content? They aren't gonna follow up the old route, they are going to climb up directly to not fall too far behind from the new stuff. If a game is not making new raid, why would people get attracted by its raid and join the game? Even at 2.0, there were only a small percentage were doing the NIM, but compare to them the current "new players" who were trying NIM is even less. In 3.0, the NIM were more popular than now.

 

Yes, there should be end-game difficulty raid, but not every raid content should stay at end level or it will be messed up. I tried a EV HM today and got my 224 MH from it. Why would I even think about running NIM DF/DP when EV HM could give me top tier MH? If you let those extremely hard old ops stay at top level, then it's nearly impossible to put it into a "right place". I'm not totally against raid, I just think OLD raid should be pugs' fun and it's silly to keep the HM/NIM's difficulty when the raiders had moved on.

 

Because there is a storyline to the game, even the "optional" sections? And the game is marketed on its story. I want to do all the content, in its proper order. The gear treadmill that you're obsessing over? Is irrelevant before too long anyway.

[Slowpokeking]

Because there is a storyline to the game, even the "optional" sections? And the game is marketed on its story. I want to do all the content, in its proper order. The gear treadmill that you're obsessing over? Is irrelevant before too long anyway.

 

Then only SM would interest these players, with GF system, people are going to run them anyway.

[IanArgent]

Then only SM would interest these players, with GF system, people are going to run them anyway.

 

Ok, I'll say what you want me to say. NiM Ops has been deprecated by the devs. The gear treadmill has been subverted by the weekly focus hardmodes, and NiM was removed from a couple Ops. From your point of view, yeah, ops are dead. I pointed out a couple pages back that Raids-as-game-design are deprecated if not dead. This has been an ongoing evolution since the beginning. ARe you going to start complaining that SWTOR doesn't have 40-man, all-day, raids? No?

 

But I'm confused - if you don't want story, and you don't want current gear-treadmill rewards, why do you want easy-mode on the old Ops? So you can spacebar through the dialog even quicker? You're bored with the old ops, so you want to be able to run through them even faster; for what reward? They can't give the same rewards as the "current" ops, that breaks the risk/reward cycle on the gear treadmill. Why do you want easy-mode ops?

[Eldren]

Then only SM would interest these players, with GF system, people are going to run them anyway.

 

I get the impression you may be having difficulty understanding that there are players who don't approach the game in the way you do. There are players who are "competitively" minded who always have to have the latest gear, the most powerful gear, because that's what provides satisfaction for them and a justification for the time (and possibly money, if they're a subscriber) they put into the game. That's perfectly fine. I think you might be one of those players.

 

There are others who want not only the story, but the social experience as well. There's content out there they haven't done yet, and it doesn't matter to them that it isn't "cutting edge". I've been playing MMOs since 1996, when I first loaded up Meridian 59. I've NEVER been someone who did "progression" content. I didn't care if someone else got there first, I only cared that I'd get there "sooner or later". My goals in the game are obviously different from yours.

 

That's as equally valid as your pursuit of the game.

[Max_Killjoy]

The gear hamster-wheel is one of the things that makes me NOT want to do raids / ops.

[Slowpokeking]

Ok, I'll say what you want me to say. NiM Ops has been deprecated by the devs. The gear treadmill has been subverted by the weekly focus hardmodes, and NiM was removed from a couple Ops. From your point of view, yeah, ops are dead. I pointed out a couple pages back that Raids-as-game-design are deprecated if not dead. This has been an ongoing evolution since the beginning. ARe you going to start complaining that SWTOR doesn't have 40-man, all-day, raids? No?

 

But I'm confused - if you don't want story, and you don't want current gear-treadmill rewards, why do you want easy-mode on the old Ops? So you can spacebar through the dialog even quicker? You're bored with the old ops, so you want to be able to run through them even faster; for what reward? They can't give the same rewards as the "current" ops, that breaks the risk/reward cycle on the gear treadmill. Why do you want easy-mode ops?

Actually, downleveling old ops is going to help new players see the story even better. So they could just form a 2-3 men group to see the story rather than get a full group and pay much attention to the mechanic.

 

I just think these ops shouldn't be kept from the casuals when their era is long gone, when even many of the raiders are getting bored of it. It's just brand elitism to say that "nightmare should stay as nightmare", it's like saying "We raiders got bored of it and were done, but you NOOBS aren't gonna touch your hand on it ever again!" That's not how MMO content works or you want to see the total death of these old content. In 3.0 our level 60s were toned down to ensure some difficulty, but it still got easier than 2.0 so we saw more people were running NIM ops, I had finished NIM SNV with pug which half of them hadn't beat it before, THIS is the direction that the ops should have gone, it walked down a step to let more people be able to taste it when its prime era has gone, but in 4.0 they brought it back to level so even less people were doing it than 2.0. This is a huge waste.

 

As for the fun from these ops? Believe or not, it's just awesome to be able to smash on things that you once couldn't even reach.

[Slowpokeking]

I get the impression you may be having difficulty understanding that there are players who don't approach the game in the way you do. There are players who are "competitively" minded who always have to have the latest gear, the most powerful gear, because that's what provides satisfaction for them and a justification for the time (and possibly money, if they're a subscriber) they put into the game. That's perfectly fine. I think you might be one of those players.

 

There are others who want not only the story, but the social experience as well. There's content out there they haven't done yet, and it doesn't matter to them that it isn't "cutting edge". I've been playing MMOs since 1996, when I first loaded up Meridian 59. I've NEVER been someone who did "progression" content. I didn't care if someone else got there first, I only cared that I'd get there "sooner or later". My goals in the game are obviously different from yours.

 

That's as equally valid as your pursuit of the game.

No I'm not, I'm mostly a casual player.

 

So these players would spend months on old NIM ops to wipe their asses off for nothing but "story and social experience" when there were tons of new content out? I don't see many of these. I'm on the side of the casuals. Sure new players would want to try the old content, but many of them don't have a tight guild or don't want to spend too much time on hardcore raid, which one would be better for them? That they could do it with 2-3 men group for the story and get a full group to clear NIM, or had to form a full group for old story and spend months in a elite guild to clear the old old NIM?

[Eldren]

No I'm not, I'm mostly a casual player.

 

So these players would spend months on old NIM ops to wipe their asses off for nothing but "story and social experience" when there were tons of new content out? I don't see many of these. I'm on the side of the casuals. Sure new players would want to try the old content, but many of them don't have a tight guild or don't want to spend too much time on hardcore raid, which one would be better for them? That they could do it with 2-3 men group for the story and get a full group to clear NIM, or had to form a full group for old story and spend months in a elite guild to clear the old old NIM?

 

This isn't a "casuals vs. hardcore" argument. Those forums are over on the Azeroth site.

 

I still feel like, at least the way you're expressing your view, you're having a difficult time understanding that there are people who approach the game differently, and with different objectives, than you do. It's fine that you have a way you prefer to play, and want to keep doing so, but believe it or not, there are players who ARE interested in seeing old content, just because it was never there.

 

I hate to use it as an example, but World of Warcraft is just such a game. I never ran Black Temple in Burning Crusade because I wasn't part of a raiding guild at that time. I in fact didn't run Black Temple until well into the days of the Cataclysm expansion, long after level 70 content was trivial (to say the least). They didn't need to nerf it so only a couple of us could run it; point of fact, we COULD have run it if we wanted by just waiting til we were at the new level cap and sporting gear from content meant to prep us for then-current raids. Instead, we took level 70 alts and ran Black Temple. We didn't consult strategy guides, we asked players already familiar with the content to let us figure it out (unless we just couldn't, and a couple of times we couldn't). We wiped many times. But eventually Illidan went down.

 

There are players who get a sense of value and fun out of running old content because it's there, not because it's the only place to get the most powerful gear. I encourage you to acknowledge those players' experiences as valid as your own instead of tolling the bell of how "outdated" raids/ops may be as a game mechanic.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

There are players who get a sense of value and fun out of running old content because it's there, not because it's the only place to get the most powerful gear. I encourage you to acknowledge those players' experiences as valid as your own instead of tolling the bell of how "outdated" raids/ops may be as a game mechanic.

 

Finally a voice of reason in the interwebs....

[Crossward]

I'll say one thing, in regards to easier NiMs.

 

I played WoW for a long time, and got a certain mount when the content was current. It was a huge achievement for me in my gaming career. This was back in the BC era. After WotLK I left the game. When I came back during WoD, people could solo farm that dungeon. Suddenly tons of people had that mount and the perceived value of it declined. Because everyone had it (or could have it), it had less value.

 

I don't get that in SWTOR. If I see a Dread Enhanced/Giradda's Rancor or a pirate cannon weapon or a Wings or a Crest, I can make a pretty good guess as to the quality of that player. Yes, on rare occasions it may have been from a gear sale, but still. You can't outlevel the content anymore, so if you want those wings you have to earn it (or pay like 150m for it, but even then you convinced 7 other people to earn it for you).

 

There's inherent value in content that isn't attainable for a large portion of the playerbase. It inspires others to get better, drives up CM sales ("Wow! That guy looks cool! I want to look like that, but since I can't get the mask/mount, let me buy something close on the CM), and acts as a reminder that the game world is larger than a player has yet experienced.

 

Things have value because of their rarity. If everyone has a rare mount, no one does.

[Slowpokeking]

This isn't a "casuals vs. hardcore" argument. Those forums are over on the Azeroth site.

 

I still feel like, at least the way you're expressing your view, you're having a difficult time understanding that there are people who approach the game differently, and with different objectives, than you do. It's fine that you have a way you prefer to play, and want to keep doing so, but believe it or not, there are players who ARE interested in seeing old content, just because it was never there.

 

Yeah, and more people would want to run these old NIM content when they got nerfed like me, 3.0 is an example. It wasn't me trying to take out the fun from people, it's the rescaling system.

 

I hate to use it as an example, but World of Warcraft is just such a game. I never ran Black Temple in Burning Crusade because I wasn't part of a raiding guild at that time. I in fact didn't run Black Temple until well into the days of the Cataclysm expansion, long after level 70 content was trivial (to say the least). They didn't need to nerf it so only a couple of us could run it; point of fact, we COULD have run it if we wanted by just waiting til we were at the new level cap and sporting gear from content meant to prep us for then-current raids. Instead, we took level 70 alts and ran Black Temple. We didn't consult strategy guides, we asked players already familiar with the content to let us figure it out (unless we just couldn't, and a couple of times we couldn't). We wiped many times. But eventually Illidan went down.

 

And do you want to spend months to wipe your *** off for it? What if you can't grab a group? Yeah, so if you want to run these at original level, bring alts or run them rather than ask it to be rescaled to hurt other's fun. There are people soloing Baron Rivendare for the mount, should Blizzard take out their fun? NO.

 

There are players who get a sense of value and fun out of running old content because it's there, not because it's the only place to get the most powerful gear. I encourage you to acknowledge those players' experiences as valid as your own instead of tolling the bell of how "outdated" raids/ops may be as a game mechanic.

Yes, and there are people who want to run these content with their original level. From what we saw from 3.0 and 4.0. Obviously more people want to run these ops with their level toned down.

 

I never said gear is the only reason to run these content, but for most of the players, their focus has switched to new content because of the fresh/fun/gear/everything, if a new content can't get the focus from the majority of the players then it's a failure. So for those old group content, it would be much more difficult to find a group to do them. So what would be easier for players? 2-3 menable for SM or even HM, or you still need a full group for SM and elite guild for NIM? How many of the new players want to spend months on old hardcore content? Even during NIM DF/DP's prime, only a small percentage of the guild were doing them.

 

You seems to think everyone could find groups or even elite guild easily for these old content. Let me tell you, more new players don't even have a good guild to form group for old raid, so should they be kept out from the OLD content, especially the NIM?

Edited March 21, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

I'll say one thing, in regards to easier NiMs.

 

I played WoW for a long time, and got a certain mount when the content was current. It was a huge achievement for me in my gaming career. This was back in the BC era. After WotLK I left the game. When I came back during WoD, people could solo farm that dungeon. Suddenly tons of people had that mount and the perceived value of it declined. Because everyone had it (or could have it), it had less value.

 

I don't get that in SWTOR. If I see a Dread Enhanced/Giradda's Rancor or a pirate cannon weapon or a Wings or a Crest, I can make a pretty good guess as to the quality of that player. Yes, on rare occasions it may have been from a gear sale, but still. You can't outlevel the content anymore, so if you want those wings you have to earn it (or pay like 150m for it, but even then you convinced 7 other people to earn it for you).

 

There's inherent value in content that isn't attainable for a large portion of the playerbase. It inspires others to get better, drives up CM sales ("Wow! That guy looks cool! I want to look like that, but since I can't get the mask/mount, let me buy something close on the CM), and acts as a reminder that the game world is larger than a player has yet experienced.

 

Things have value because of their rarity. If everyone has a rare mount, no one does.

 

You've got these mount/titles much earlier than others, how is it not an achievement? It's just a game, why shouldn't casual players be able to get them easier after 1-2 xpc, which means 2-3 years at least? It's not like there aren't new challenge, new title and new mount for you to achieve. Why do you bother to let others get those after years? To these players, they could get what they couldn't think of years ago. While it was no longer that great but it's reachable now, how is it not awesome for them?

 

MMO has a lifespan, when that content is no longer achievement for elite guilds and they got new stuff to do, new title to show and new mount to get, why shouldn't it be given to more people to enjoy?

Edited March 21, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[RiVaN_]

To the Orrigonal Poster of this thread.

It depends on your point of view and your personal level of "content endurance." For me, yes, the current Ops are outdated and boring. I play and raid 3 days a week because I enjoy the company of those I game with an that camaraderie we share keeps me playing SWTOR.

 

However I have been playing this game since it launched and there isn't enough content to keep me interested. I have done everything I want to do and I don't feel like grinding through all the achievements. Like kill 10,000 of these and rack up 5000 player kills on Planet X.

No Thanks, those "busy work" "grind it out" achievements don't appeal to me and I don't find them fun. But that is just my opinion and where I am coming from. I'm sure there are plenty of folks who are completionists and want to do everything and others who are new to the game and so all this is fresh and new to them. I've gobbled up every ounce of content, poring 4 hours, 4 nights a week into SWTOR for 4 years and I have, but 1 accomplishment yet to reach: Subscription Cancelled... "Achievement Unlocked!"

 

Oh I'll still be raiding, over the past 2 months I have gathered enough Ops passes off the GTN to keep me going until July, but if there isn't hope of a new Op by then, I'm probably done.

[DisIzMe]

You've got these mount/titles much earlier than others, how is it not an achievement? It's just a game, why shouldn't casual players be able to get them easier after 1-2 xpc, which means 2-3 years at least? It's not like there aren't new challenge, new title and new mount for you to achieve. Why do you bother to let others get those after years? To these players, they could get what they couldn't think of years ago. While it was no longer that great but it's reachable now, how is it not awesome for them?

 

MMO has a lifespan, when that content is no longer achievement for elite guilds and they got new stuff to do, new title to show and new mount to get, why shouldn't it be given to more people to enjoy?

 

If new operations were coming out in decent rates,tuned for end game story hard and nIM modes,then sure,no problems with new players running old operations if tacticals are not enough.

But since last "new" operations was released long ago in a galaxy far far away and given apparent lack of workforce in SWTOR team, channeling efforts to redesign old 8 man end game operations to be played by few low level characters with handfull abilities- this is a big big NO. I dont know if you noticed,but servers are not exactly at KOTFE peak right now and forcing out what is left of raiders in chase of mythical swarms of new players that can replaced the burned out old timers - is stupidly counterproductive.

So in ideal world - yeah why not. In reality - no way.

[Slowpokeking]

If new operations were coming out in decent rates,tuned for end game story hard and nIM modes,then sure,no problems with new players running old operations if tacticals are not enough.

But since last "new" operations was released long ago in a galaxy far far away and given apparent lack of workforce in SWTOR team, channeling efforts to redesign old 8 man end game operations to be played by few low level characters with handfull abilities- this is a big big NO. I dont know if you noticed,but servers are not exactly at KOTFE peak right now and forcing out what is left of raiders in chase of mythical swarms of new players that can replaced the burned out old timers - is stupidly counterproductive.

So in ideal world - yeah why not. In reality - no way.

 

Again, reanimate zombies doesn't solve the problem, many raiders have already left and if there is still no new ops coming out for a while, more and more people will leave or give up on hard raid because of boredom.

[Khevar]

Again, reanimate zombies doesn't solve the problem, many raiders have already left and if there is still no new ops coming out for a while, more and more people will leave or give up on hard raid because of boredom.

Just suppose when 4.0 came out, that operations were NOT rescaled to level 65, but were left as they were.

 

EV/KP/EC still at 50.

TfB/SnV/DF/DP still at 55.

Rav/ToS still at 60.

Nothing at 65 because no new ops.

 

What do you think would have happened to the raiding scene here on TOR?

Edited March 22, 2016 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

Just suppose when 4.0 came out, that operations were NOT rescaled to level 65, but were left as they were.

 

EV/KP/EC still at 50.

TfB/SnV/DF/DP still at 55.

Rav/ToS still at 60.

Nothing at 65 because no new ops.

 

What do you think would have happened to the raiding scene here on TOR?

I think people will still run the daily GF SM if they are still there. More people will start to smash the 4 level 55 ops to get what they couldn't get before. More people will do Rav/ToS like people doing NIM ops in 3.0 because it got easier.

 

Sure it's missing top ops so people might need to rely on the crystals to get top tier gear, but to be fair. The current setting is already "handling top tier gear too freely". You can get TOP TIER gear from ops like EV HM, the earliest and the easiest HM ops, that every mech had been figured out for years. I don't see a reason for most of the people to spend much effort on NIM.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It's worth noting that slowpoke's main priority here is to be able to run NiM mode over leveled ( thus not making it NIM ) to make it easier/godmod, presumably for the drops.

He has endeavoured to try disguise this a few times in the thread but if you go back over a lot of his posts this theme recurs ... it's not about making operations more casual friendly or what not it's about taking the hardest content in the game and down scaling it so he can get the drops from it.

 

If this were a pure topic about creating an additional tactical mode for people to experience the content ( but get stuff all in the way of rewards compared to what SM drop ) it might have been a more relevant discussion but seeing as the "NIM should be easy because it's old" point keeps rearing it's head ... this whole thread is moot and just an attempt at justifying one individuals greed.

[VegasTheLost]

Just suppose when 4.0 came out, that operations were NOT rescaled to level 65, but were left as they were.

 

EV/KP/EC still at 50.

TfB/SnV/DF/DP still at 55.

Rav/ToS still at 60.

Nothing at 65 because no new ops.

 

What do you think would have happened to the raiding scene here on TOR?

 

Even looking at this hurts.

[Taareth]

Nope leave people their raids and ask instead for more solo or 2+ content if that is what you are looking for, no need to take away what other people already have.

 

If it is about gear - Raiders should have raiding gear, PVP'ers should have pvp gear and PVE'ers should have PVE gear, all unique, all as a reward for doing that thing.

 

For anyone wondering this sort of thread has gone on since the dawn of raids, it is nothing new, or anything to do with new gamers.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Taareth

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Again, reanimate zombies doesn't solve the problem, many raiders have already left and if there is still no new ops coming out for a while, more and more people will leave or give up on hard raid because of boredom.

 

You say they left, but really have no proof. Not to mention you, yourself have said you dont do OPs because of the drama, so I am really curious where you get this notion that your statements are at all accurate, or why you feel the need to presume you speak for all casuals?

 

I see people calling out for NiM every night on fleet on JC, same with SM, and HM. So sorry if I take your personally biased claims with little more then a grain of salt.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

It's worth noting that slowpoke's main priority here is to be able to run NiM mode over leveled ( thus not making it NIM ) to make it easier/godmod, presumably for the drops.

He has endeavoured to try disguise this a few times in the thread but if you go back over a lot of his posts this theme recurs ... it's not about making operations more casual friendly or what not it's about taking the hardest content in the game and down scaling it so he can get the drops from it.

 

If this were a pure topic about creating an additional tactical mode for people to experience the content ( but get stuff all in the way of rewards compared to what SM drop ) it might have been a more relevant discussion but seeing as the "NIM should be easy because it's old" point keeps rearing it's head ... this whole thread is moot and just an attempt at justifying one individuals greed.

 

^^ this exactly...