Why premade is a problem?

[omaan]

As a MMO player i noticed that many players in this game are complaining much about premades and i got interested why other MMO games are not stuck with such problem.

So it was easy to find a reason... the reason is ONLINE. When you play MMO with high online (lineage,wow,gw2) u can que battleground and get against premade and loose but after you que again you have a small chance to get against that premade again, Why? Because online is high. Now if we talk about swtor.... a game which has low online we have a situation in which players MUST FIGHT premade again,again and again.... there are just no other enemies in que,so solo players are always getting against premade. If a player looses to premade one time,it's not causing much problems but....when players LOOSE to premade 13 times they get mad.

So yes,premade is a problem and it is a problem only for games with LOW online. other MMO are not having such problem. Cross-server que may fix this problem but we all understand that BW spitted on this idea.

 

P.S. sorry for words inversion,english is my third language.

[Lhancelot]

a game which has low online we have a situation in which players MUST FIGHT premade again,again and again.... there are just no other enemies in que,so solo players are always getting against premade.

Let's say you are right. Then the only solution is to make solo queues truly solo queue. Meaning, all premades if they queue as a group get split up and randomly placed on a team for PVP.

 

What could make it work better is cross-faction queuing meaning letting pubs and imps play on the same side.

 

This would then make it possible to introduce a true matchmaking system where the game has a large number of players/classes that can be matched up for a better balance of teams.

 

No more 4 healers on one side, no more 8 man queue synced premades, etc. Lots of issues would be fixed imo if this kind of solo queue existed.

 

If people want to group up and stay grouped for 8v8 regs they should enter and be placed in a "group queue", and face other players who also are in groups that want to face other groups...

 

Ohhh... You don't like the long waits for queue pops in the group only queues? Well, take the solo queue then.

[BowtieJones]

Let's say you are right. Then the only solution is to make solo queues truly solo queue. Meaning, all premades if they queue as a group get split up and randomly placed on a team for PVP.

 

What could make it work better is cross-faction queuing meaning letting pubs and imps play on the same side.

 

This would then make it possible to introduce a true matchmaking system where the game has a large number of players/classes that can be matched up for a better balance of teams.

 

No more 4 healers on one side, no more 8 man queue synced premades, etc. Lots of issues would be fixed imo if this kind of solo queue existed.

 

If people want to group up and stay grouped for 8v8 regs they should enter and be placed in a "group queue", and face other players who also are in groups that want to face other groups...

 

Ohhh... You don't like the long waits for queue pops in the group only queues? Well, take the solo queue then.

 

There already is a solo only queue. The problem is that it's only for arena.

[Yorioko]

Is premades avoidable, as a "phenomenon" and a problem.

A good attitude towards it IF it poses a huge problem is passive resistance, simply just stay idle against premades, make the fights 100% one sided in their favor, make the fights utterly B O R I N G for them and within month at most the phenomenon is gone.

 

That is IF is is avoidable at all

[jedcjedcjedc]

Let's say you are right. Then the only solution is to make solo queues truly solo queue. Meaning, all premades if they queue as a group get split up and randomly placed on a team for PVP.

 

What could make it work better is cross-faction queuing meaning letting pubs and imps play on the same side.

 

This would then make it possible to introduce a true matchmaking system where the game has a large number of players/classes that can be matched up for a better balance of teams.

 

No more 4 healers on one side, no more 8 man queue synced premades, etc. Lots of issues would be fixed imo if this kind of solo queue existed.

 

If people want to group up and stay grouped for 8v8 regs they should enter and be placed in a "group queue", and face other players who also are in groups that want to face other groups...

 

Ohhh... You don't like the long waits for queue pops in the group only queues? Well, take the solo queue then.

 

you could look at it the other way just as easy. you want to play by yourself? try a single player game. Any problem someone can say happens in solo que will happen just the same in any group que (not that anyone cares as long as they can be anti-social again). that side over there has two 4-man groups each from the same guild, we only have four 2-man groups from different guilds, this isn't fair, they should make a seperate que for people in 4-man groups Q.Q

[Ruhun]

you could look at it the other way just as easy. you want to play by yourself? try a single player game. Any problem someone can say happens in solo que will happen just the same in any group que (not that anyone cares as long as they can be anti-social again). that side over there has two 4-man groups each from the same guild, we only have four 2-man groups from different guilds, this isn't fair, they should make a seperate que for people in 4-man groups Q.Q

 

I think it's hilarious that you don't want to go against other groups exclusively.

[jedcjedcjedc]

I think it's hilarious that you don't want to go against other groups exclusively.

 

I don't mind who I face one way or the other. I que with my guild, I que by myself, I fight against pugs, I fight against premades. It's why you haven't seen one of these threads coming from me. What I do care about is que times and pointing out the inconsistencies that people can't live with in one que but are fine with if they are in another. out of sight out of mind, I guess.

[Lhancelot]

you could look at it the other way just as easy. you want to play by yourself? try a single player game. Any problem someone can say happens in solo que will happen just the same in any group que (not that anyone cares as long as they can be anti-social again). that side over there has two 4-man groups each from the same guild, we only have four 2-man groups from different guilds, this isn't fair, they should make a seperate que for people in 4-man groups Q.Q

 

I group for pvp, and solo queue too. I would not be hurt one bit if they made "solo queue" truly solo queue. Meaning, you know... Groups formed and queued for solo queues were broken up and then randomly placed on opposing teams.

 

I think if something of this kind was created, a group would be anything consisting of 2+ people in a group queing together. They would be stuck in the queue for "groups" then, if it was 2,3,4 people if they chose to queue in the "group queue".

 

I always liked fighting guildies in the past, because you knew it would be competitive. So for me, even if I were in a pvp guild and grouped with guildies I would not mind having the game randomly break us up and stick us on random teams.

 

If me and a pal who enjoyed grouping wanted to stay together, then all the game needs to have is a "group queue" that we could enter along with other grouped players who were interested in staying grouped and fighting against other groups.

 

I think this would be a great solution for all involved tbh.

[HuaRya]

"population" is the word I believe you are implying when stating Low/High?

 

As of this writing every server this week has been mostly 'Light'. Yes even the venerable Harbinger is in 'Light' mode as I'm typing this in the late afternoon. This is probably the key to many of the woes in the pug vs. premade debacle that will come to peoples minds when discussing this game years from now when they are in the next disney flavored star wars sandbox filled with mary sue super jedi who only need touch a lightsaber to be a master. I digress.

 

They need to merge the tiny sever islands they have left in North America into one east coast, one west coast, and one rp.

 

Is it some kind of nostalgic hubris they haven't done this by now or is it a limitation of the Hero engine? Either way a top priority should be finding new high capacity servers. I'd hate to see how dead GSF is now....

[MasterFeign]

What I find funny about those peopel complaining about it, is I've often been in full pug WZs (or at least what I think is full puggs) and yet no one is going for the objectives, things remain uncapped, or doors unguarded etc etc. So as soon as a premade comes in to actually do the very thing these people aren't doing, it's somehow unfair now... Like, really? xD

[kweassa]

What I find funny about those peopel complaining about it, is I've often been in full pug WZs (or at least what I think is full puggs) and yet no one is going for the objectives, things remain uncapped, or doors unguarded etc etc. So as soon as a premade comes in to actually do the very thing these people aren't doing, it's somehow unfair now... Like, really? xD

 

Really.

 

If you can't understand the underlying implications of random queues and how it is supposed to keep the things in the least 'fair', then you'll probably understand it once the numbers really start to dwindle.

 

Do you normally pit individual boys and girls against an organized little league team, and then gloat about how people without teams suck?

 

You want to play with your friends? Guild? Hey, that's all fine and dandy. Totally cool.

Go fight someone your own size, with the same level of base preparation.

[aerockyul]

What I find funny about those peopel complaining about it, is I've often been in full pug WZs (or at least what I think is full puggs) and yet no one is going for the objectives, things remain uncapped, or doors unguarded etc etc. So as soon as a premade comes in to actually do the very thing these people aren't doing, it's somehow unfair now... Like, really? xD

 

Most premades I see zerg to mid, don't play objectives, send no one to guard (that's for the filthy pugs, but we'll scream at them when they don't read our minds and do our job), don't communicate even with themselves, and are definitely NOT communicating with the four other pugs on the same team except to berate them when they aren't doing the objectives that the premade is also not doing

Edited March 11, 2016 by aerockyul

[MasterFeign]

Most premades I see zerg to mid, don't play objectives, send no one to guard (that's for the filthy pugs, but we'll scream at them when they don't read our minds and do our job), don't communicate even with themselves, and are definitely NOT communicating with the four other pugs on the same team except to berate them when they aren't doing the objectives that the premade is also not doing

 

lol this is true. But yeah, like when the pugs put out 0 effort and the premade does, suddenly this is somehow unfair. Like, noooooooooo, everyone should be as equally clueless in the WZ! heh...

[kweassa]

I think it's hilarious that you don't want to go against other groups exclusively.

 

Exactly.

 

When you give premade players an exclusive arena where every contendor is at least the same basic level of organization, one would think that it would be a dream come true for people who like making teams. They don't have to suffer pis*-poor players any more. They don't have to feel guilty about slaughtering bunch of pugs so easily every time. They will truly have a chance to compete people of same calibre, or perhaps, even stronger than they!

 

Of course, in reality, as it turns out, when that happens, most premades usually back out from such opportunities and simply crawl straight back into pug matches. The really, really top level of premade teams -- PvP-only guilds and stuff, these are basically the only guys that stay around in real team match-ups. All the rest who make a habit of making premades just disappear from the scene, never use it, and so team matchups become abandoned.

 

The reason is fairly simple.

 

1. Most of the average premades, when they queue into real teamed matchups, basically receive 'a taste of one's own medicine.'

2. Not all premades are equal, and the disparity in skill level is as much as you'd see between pugs and premades.

3. When you guarantee a teamed matchup, the likelihood of those average premade players meeting really powerful premade players goes way up -- unlike pug matchups where the population is lot more higher.

4. In short, they lose. A LOT

 

So, unlike what premade players say, most premades are actually created because it guarantees easy wins. I don't doubt that they're earnest in many of the reasons they give out -- but they usually don't mention the most important reason of them all, and that is easy wins.

 

Hence, the analogy: making premades to compete against other premades is awesome. But making premades to operate almost exclusively in pug-dominant PvP environment? Equivalent of rigging the match.

Edited March 11, 2016 by kweassa

[Lhancelot]

Exactly.

 

When you give premade players an exclusive arena where every contendor is at least the same basic level of organization, one would think that it would be a dream come true for people who like making teams. They don't have to suffer pis*-poor players any more. They don't have to feel guilty about slaughtering bunch of pugs so easily every time. They will truly have a chance to compete people of same calibre, or perhaps, even stronger than they!

 

Of course, in reality, as it turns out, when that happens, most premades usually back out from such opportunities and simply crawl straight back into pug matches. The really, really top level of premade teams -- PvP-only guilds and stuff, these are basically the only guys that stay around in real team match-ups. All the rest who make a habit of making premades just disappear from the scene, never use it, and so team matchups become abandoned.

 

The reason is fairly simple.

 

 

 

So, unlike what premade players say, most premades are actually created because it guarantees easy wins. I don't doubt that they're earnest in many of the reasons they give out -- but they usually don't mention the most important reason of them all, and that is easy wins.

 

Hence, the analogy: making premades to compete against other premades is awesome. But making premades to operate almost exclusively in pug-dominant PvP environment? Equivalent of rigging the match.

 

100% truth here.

 

I actually like regs because of the 8v8 format. I also solo queue a lot. I have group queued before and occasionally do now if someone invites me to a group for PVP.

 

That being said, I am just surprised some people defend the "solo queue" system in effect right now, and refuse to admit that it's definitely not exactly a fair match up having organized groups fighting random solo queued pugs.

 

I don't cry about how it works, because I usually can find people to group with if the matches become too much to suffer through and if not, well I can log on my healing sorc and make solo queing not as bad.

 

Point is, it's not really a fair matchup. No one can honestly say it is, and stomping pugs while in a premade gets boring fast for me as it does for others too.

 

I have been with really good pvpers who decide to go to pub side because the stompings are so easy, just to try to balance the sides out a bit for more compelling fights.

 

usually the best fights occur when premades end up against other premades or pugs face pugs. The problem is when premades face pugs they usually steamroll them easily. I know pugs can beat premades but let's be honest usually they do not.

 

If solo queue truly split up everyone in the queue and matched them according to classes, and not the group premade they were in when joining the queue, how would this not make for more compelling fights?

 

I just think from the perspective of what would make better fights and that's more important to me tbh.

 

If people want to group with their friends, guildies, whatever, it would be best if they were matched against others who group queued too.

 

I realize it won't happen but in theory it would be better for PVP, if the population could handle such queues.

[kweassa]

I don't lie about shi*. I'm not a good player -- at least, not any more.

 

I'm way past my prime, been playing other MMOGs for the past 3 years after 2 years of SWTOR, and now I've returned to enjoy stuff at a more relaxed environment, for the FUN of it. I'm too old to be hyperactive about competition and all that krap. There are a LOT of bad players like me for whatever personal reasons they may have.

 

However, even bad players like us -- as downtrodden and bad as we are -- still like PvP. We want to enjoy it and be a part of PvP. It's just that we don't feel like going to have to go through that young teens-and-twenties gig all over and being a part of a guild, taking responsibility, having to participate in stuff every day... and on and on. Just a quite life of alt-characters and simple, fun PvP. If MMOG players have a MMOG life cycle, guys like me are in the dusk, sun is setting. We like it a bit more relaxed, and it gives a chance to meet many newbie players and maybe offer an advice or two. Not so fiercely competitive, but still fun enough to get along.

 

The problem is, once a bunch of premade arses show up, then it becomes all downhill from there. I wouldn't mind if them premades are just having one or two matches for practice before the real deal ranked fights, but most these premades are nothing like that. They make premades for the sole purpose of steamrolling winning streaks amongst a horde of average level bad players, and just don't go away.

 

Never mind the stupid shi* cocky attitudes and trash talking -- everyone's done that in their young age. But the real problem is they just do this on and on and on.. .and what happens is most normal players, they get fed up, and scared to meet them again, and then never queue again that day. The queue goes dead after a while and no more friggin' PvP for people to enjoy, because nobody is going to put up with meething the same band of arseholes again and again to be brutally crushed over and over.

 

These guys who say they like PvP, have no remorse in taking actions that ACTUALLY KILL PVP INSTEAD OF PROMOTING IT -- throughout the entirety of their existance when they decide to have a field day with unranked WZs. To me, that doesn't really count ad PvPing. It's a different form of ganking.

[jedcjedcjedc]

yup, I que up in a 2 man group with a merc healer for those easy wins. Just ask Lhancelot, he'll tell you how OP those mercs are, it's a surprise the other side even bothers queuing up anymore

 

There's an awful lot of assumptions taken for fact around here to support your floundering argument, I can't help but laugh when another "true believer" comes in to throw out more assumptions and hypotheticals in attempts to slander.

[DarthBubba]

Sorry, this is NOT a population problem. This problem has existed since day one. Back when the game first came out they had of over a million subscribers within the first three days alone. Even back then this was a problem. Within the first month people were hitting max level and pvp'ing and there was a major problem on all the servers of pugs being thrown against premades, over and over again.....sometimes the exact same premade. I quit pvp'ing a long time ago, back when they had those weeklies that required so many wins. The reason I quit is for two weeks I tried to get my wins and never even won one match. I played at least 20 matches a day and 95% of the time I was thrown into Huttball. My team changed nearly every match but I noticed that most of the time we were constantly being thrown up against a couple of premades. Every match was low geared pugs vs premades with the best gear. There were three teams in particular that the game liked to throw us up against. One of the teams we fought probably 50% of the time.

 

This has been a major problem since the very beginning and a lot of people wondered if the game automatically threw the lowest geared players up against the highest geared because it constantly seemed to take newbie pugs and put them against the most elite pvper's. I would even take long breaks, log out, log into another toon and try it or change to my Republic toon and play but the same thing happened no matter what class or faction I played. Pug vs. Premade for nearly 95% of all matches. It was ridiculous and got so bad that many people just quit outright. It was the reason i stopped pvp'ing also. I never did get those wins.......actually I never even got a single win. Two weeks of nothing but pvp and not a single win. That's not a L2P issue. Nor was it a population problem since this was at the game's peak population when it had millions of players. I counted the servers one day and there was well over a hundred back then.

[Yorioko]

Sorry, this is NOT a population problem. This problem has existed since day one. Back when the game first came out they had of over a million subscribers within the first three days alone. Even back then this was a problem. Within the first month people were hitting max level and pvp'ing and there was a major problem on all the servers of pugs being thrown against premades, over and over again.....sometimes the exact same premade. I quit pvp'ing a long time ago, back when they had those weeklies that required so many wins. The reason I quit is for two weeks I tried to get my wins and never even won one match. I played at least 20 matches a day and 95% of the time I was thrown into Huttball. My team changed nearly every match but I noticed that most of the time we were constantly being thrown up against a couple of premades. Every match was low geared pugs vs premades with the best gear. There were three teams in particular that the game liked to throw us up against. One of the teams we fought probably 50% of the time.

 

This has been a major problem since the very beginning and a lot of people wondered if the game automatically threw the lowest geared players up against the highest geared because it constantly seemed to take newbie pugs and put them against the most elite pvper's. I would even take long breaks, log out, log into another toon and try it or change to my Republic toon and play but the same thing happened no matter what class or faction I played. Pug vs. Premade for nearly 95% of all matches. It was ridiculous and got so bad that many people just quit outright. It was the reason i stopped pvp'ing also. I never did get those wins.......actually I never even got a single win. Two weeks of nothing but pvp and not a single win. That's not a L2P issue. Nor was it a population problem since this was at the game's peak population when it had millions of players. I counted the servers one day and there was well over a hundred back then.

 

This is 100% true.

 

To me this appear as a conequence of the current que system AND the SELECTION for the que.

From my limited experince in SWTOR pvp, it ppears to me that the problem with premades is basically a problem in reg zones.

If it is also an equally huge problem in ranked, then it IS a huge problem.

 

I doubt that there will ever be a way to counter premades by PUGing.

 

However, and again from a fairly limited experience, To me Premade groups APPEAR as planned groups gathering to Que togheter.

If this is the case then I can't see the problem, to counter it you simply que up with a group of your own.

 

Now becuse there is alot of PUG in the reg zones, in fact most groups are pugged, then the problem is NOT the premade groups that have PLANNED their pvp, most likely in advance, agreed on tactics, etc etc. Or bacislly done the right things then since it is an MMO, and that usually means GROUPING up, then that is what they do, be it friends or guildmates, and then they go PVP.

 

Naturally any well thought trough group will kick the crap out of most PUG groups becuse it is next to impossible to control who you PUG with.

 

So the solution is to be better at teaming and forming premades to counter premades.

 

as long as the PVP system is the way it is Premades, and well the unserious and all the things that rightfully or unrightfully cause grief in the pvp zones are all more o less gone if

1) people team up BEFORE Que.

2) accept that reg zones are just that..........a chaotic mix of the serious and the unserious, with too much of the unserious too often shining the brightest.

3) IF Rnked Zones are less problematic in the premade problem then there gain is another solution.

 

BUT in essence the best way to solve the issue is to make your own premade group and kick ***.

 

naturally there is another way: One could throw fights every time one encounter premades, it will make their fight boring, and over quite short time so boring they will either stop premade or take a pvp break, both solutions work

[Wimbleton]

^

So, what you should learn, if its been 100% true problem from 100% day one, is that it's not going to change. And its not. Simple.

 

Some people are asking premades to queue ranked team... well often my premades include 2 or 3 people, maybe 4, but rarely are they a ranked comp. And even if they were, ranked doesnt really pop, even on Harb, accept for certain times. Half of the time I queue a premade we arent even on voice comms, we just queue together and play and work together for a win or high numbers.

 

So because you cannot find a friend or 3 to queue with, we are not supposed to queue with our friends?

 

I spend alot of time queueing solo and I have no problem helping other pugs beat premades all the time.

 

I think the reason I get invited to premades is because I'm a decent player, and I look for other decent players to group with as well. If you're a decent player, every day you start queueing, just start collecting other decent players who are solo queueing. After you do this for a couple of months you will have developed enough people on the friends list to have plenty of 2s 3s and premades going.

 

First step, become a decent player.

Second step, start making friends.

Third step, three question marks.

Fourth Step, Sales minus costs, exclamation point.

 

Also, if you're on Harb, look for me, I'll grp with you.

[OmegaDagger]

is there some super secret WZ I dont now about that is for "solo que'ing"? On what planet and in what reality do you think people should be punished for using teamwork, and that you should be rewarded for refusing to use it?

[Ruhun]

is there some super secret WZ I dont now about that is for "solo que'ing"? On what planet and in what reality do you think people should be punished for using teamwork, and that you should be rewarded for refusing to use it?

 

Well there is solo ranked.

 

I don't understand the constant balking at people who don't consistently run premades.

Why is it so detrimental to your play style to have something similar to solo ranked but for 8v8s?

[OmegaDagger]

Well there is solo ranked.

 

I don't understand the constant balking at people who don't consistently run premades.

Why is it so detrimental to your play style to have something similar to solo ranked but for 8v8s?

 

 

You seem to miss the point. Que'ing solo for a 8v8 match is not a good thing. You shouldnt get special privileges because you fail to understand that you can only win if 7 other people are willing to play with you. If there are so many solo players out there, who are so butthurt about having to face a team with even the tiniest amount of organization. why dont we create a chat channel where solo players can meet each other, and STOP BEING SOLO PLAYERS.

 

tl;dr you should not be solo que'ing in the first place. The only reason it exists is to group up people who dont have friends. It isnt a special protected category.

[Ruhun]

You seem to miss the point. Que'ing solo for a 8v8 match is not a good thing. You shouldnt get special privileges because you fail to understand that you can only win if 7 other people are willing to play with you. If there are so many solo players out there, who are so butthurt about having to face a team with even the tiniest amount of organization. why dont we create a chat channel where solo players can meet each other, and STOP BEING SOLO PLAYERS.

 

tl;dr you should not be solo que'ing in the first place. The only reason it exists is to group up people who dont have friends. It isnt a special protected category.

 

If we had a solo ranked/reg situation everyone would be happy.

That or remove the ability to solo queue, either way I would be fine with it.

[Yorioko]

On my last "streak" of pvp, meaning doing more then the every now and then when I feel like it pvp, but on a set mission. This one for M1-4X companion, which I was lucky enough to complete in less then 20/20 rounds.

 

I noticed this.

 

the only times my team won, was when we all took a little time before the match to set some very basic tactics, to survey our team on who is weakest and who is strongest, then quikly apply roles, have a PREMADE tactic against premades as much as we could.

 

So we encountered a premade, and becuse we then diregarded our own win ration for the moment, we all focused on thaking out first their healer then their stealther, in this case the premade had both.

 

Doing that we ended up with 1 dead vs their 2 dead, so we won the deathmatch.

 

My point is that premades is nothing more then people gathering in advance, sharing tactics, and to some extend planning their pvp.

 

I can not see that premades are wrong in any way at all to be fair. Can I see that being beaten by the "same" group again and again is a problem, yes and no....yes becuse loosing isn't fun.

No, becuse Nothing prevents both sides from doing what MMOS somewaht are intended for.....teaming up and doing things.

 

If you are to turn it around to pve, then premades is often the only way to make sure we beat a HM OPS, we are sure that our group knows at least the basics of the matches in the ops etc and we can easily use preagreed tatics.

 

IF premades is such a probem, then team up your self.

 

Now, I don't want to guild up, it has "duties", I don't want to pull togheter a team of friends to plan some pvp for the day....

So I QUE alone, then I get PUGed with alot of other that really don't have level of competition and pre planning as the premades so becuse I REFUSE to team up in advance I complain.

 

LOL!

 

It is the same with really my issues about the belitteling and result orientented complaining I am so fed up with and complain about.

 

Here we have people wanting to do "sport" in a place where every other team mate they encounter have a very other idea then "sport", yet in stead of then seeking out thir sport where it is most likely to be found, they compalain.

 

And this thing about premades is the exact same, the ONLY reason premades is problem, is becuse people let be......if those that really felt that premades were such a major issue, bothered to do what most MMO players .....group up, and when called for, group up in advance and plan.........then really the problem about premades becomes utterly silly