Game has died, Nowhere to go

[peter_plankskull]

Soo.... before I log out for awhile... our next goal is most replies to a single thread?

[Jadescythe]

Soo.... before I log out for awhile... our next goal is most replies to a single thread?

 

Not going to happen. Threads have hit so many replies they had to be restarted multiple times.

 

Here's one of my old favorites with almost 8k replies in it: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=544543&page=195

[DieAlteHexe]

Well many of my friends went preffered, just buying passes, lvling toons and stuff. Seems that people are slowly leaving, yet many are staying and hope for a better tomorrow.

 

You can still see it on sites like Parsely, reddit, that people are posting things, doing things. Its not over yet, but Bioware needs to do something.

 

In these discussions, I often see something that sometimes amuses me, and sometimes pisses me off.

 

Yes, some people are leaving. Some people are returning. Some people are staying "in hope" but it's always overlooked that there is a group that actually enjoys the game. Yes, they exist.

 

There. I feel better now.

[CaitiVoltaire]

In these discussions, I often see something that sometimes amuses me, and sometimes pisses me off.

 

Yes, some people are leaving. Some people are returning. Some people are staying "in hope" but it's always overlooked that there is a group that actually enjoys the game. Yes, they exist.

 

There. I feel better now.

 

Well, you are obviously wrong for having an opinion that doesn't fit neatly into a nice little box people want to fit everyone into.

 

I'm in kind of the same boat honestly; if I didn't like something about SWTOR I wouldn't be wasting my time posting here or playing the game, there's literally millions of other games out there for me to choose from. In fact the reason that I have things I quite enjoy about SWTOR is part of why I get so frustrated about the bugs that haven't been fixed in literally years, lacking pieces of content, and seeing the same complaints come up time and time again.

[TUXs]

Funny you decide to reply to that part though rather than the part where I called you on your "Bioware is not pleasing anyone" hyperbole.

Fine...name me one group of player types that is happy right now. A group where there have been almost no complaints, mostly just praise.

 

It sure as hell isn't the PvEers/Raiders.

It sure as hell isn't the PvPers.

It sure as hell isn't GSFers.

It sure as hell isn't story folk. They don't want ONE story from 8...we don't even have Imp/Pub differences, or light/dark, or male/female, or anything of substance...we just play through to the next cut-scene. All of our companions have lost their uniqueness (which I like, just stating a fact).

 

So...what group is really happy right now in your opinion?

[DieAlteHexe]

Well, you are obviously wrong for having an opinion that doesn't fit neatly into a nice little box people want to fit everyone into.

 

I'm in kind of the same boat honestly; if I didn't like something about SWTOR I wouldn't be wasting my time posting here or playing the game, there's literally millions of other games out there for me to choose from. In fact the reason that I have things I quite enjoy about SWTOR is part of why I get so frustrated about the bugs that haven't been fixed in literally years, lacking pieces of content, and seeing the same complaints come up time and time again.

 

Yeah, silly me.

 

I'm a total BW fan-granny. I love 'em BUT there are things that they do that make me grouchy. Nothing, however, has made me reach a point that I have reached with other MMOs. If/when that happens, fan-granny or no, I just cancel and move on. We all have our limits of tolerance.

 

I also appreciate that perfection is a very difficult thing to obtain especially with a moving target like an MMO. One thing to finally get everything ironed out in an offline game (and rare enough itself) but an MMO...unnnnnpossible.

 

Lots of wee bugs in this game or things that I think could have been done better/differently but overall, I'm good.

[DieAlteHexe]

Fine...name me one group of player types that is happy right now. A group where there have been almost no complaints, mostly just praise.

 

It sure as hell isn't the PvEers/Raiders.

It sure as hell isn't the PvPers.

It sure as hell isn't GSFers.

It sure as hell isn't story folk. They don't want ONE story from 8...we don't even have Imp/Pub differences, or light/dark, or male/female, or anything of substance...we just play through to the next cut-scene. All of our companions have lost their uniqueness (which I like, just stating a fact).

 

So...what group is really happy right now in your opinion?

 

TUXs! You did a bad! You missed one group. Plain ol' PVEers. Don't be lumping us in with raiders (nothing against raiders, mind you, just that there are those of us who are PVEers and don't raid).

 

The story bit...I am not overjoyed with the companion aspect of KotFE. I'm also not up in arms about it...yet. I am willing, by virtue of my long enjoyment of BW offerings, to see where they take us.

[CaitiVoltaire]

Yeah, silly me.

 

I'm a total BW fan-granny. I love 'em BUT there are things that they do that make me grouchy. Nothing, however, has made me reach a point that I have reached with other MMOs. If/when that happens, fan-granny or no, I just cancel and move on. We all have our limits of tolerance.

 

I also appreciate that perfection is a very difficult thing to obtain especially with a moving target like an MMO. One thing to finally get everything ironed out in an offline game (and rare enough itself) but an MMO...unnnnnpossible.

 

Lots of wee bugs in this game or things that I think could have been done better/differently but overall, I'm good.

 

At the end of the day I can share frustrations people have because frankly, a lot of the problems that the game does have at least on the technical side could be fixed.

 

The problem we kind of have here is the one many MMOs run into, even The Big Ones (WoW and UO): rather than fix existing problems with new content, they pump out new expansions (with new problems )to try to court new users to replace the ones who leave. There are bugs in this game that have existed since release. I know. I was there

 

I think with SWTOR in particular there's a resistance to the naysaying because a lot of reviews burned and buried SWTOR probably quite unfairly. A lot of reviews I read on SWTOR, especially at time of release, obviously hand't played far past Coruscant or Dromund Kaas and they harped on about a lot of points that get better later on. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that there aren't (plenty of) legitimate issues.

 

Just as an example: One big bugbear for me (as someone with experience world-building in a variety of engines), is how many seams there are in the world. Go looking sometime where two "pieces" of the world meet. You'll find a lot of seams. It tanks performance and is probably why the game is so hard on GPUs it really shouldn't be. Another similar bugbear: floating items. There's a lot of items that aren't placed properly on Z-planes.

 

But that's just one particular thing I can provide. There's all kinds.

 

I think more than anything there's a feeling that Bioware isn't "doing enough" to really fix things. I'm not sure I entirely agree, but their process is pretty opaque compared to many other MMOs. I cast my mind back to UO townhalls where the Origin team downright explained what they changed to the code and the compiler errors they got. I don't expect quite that detailed, but it provides a quite striking contrast.

 

And gosh, I feel old that I can say I was part of the UO beta, haha.

[IanArgent]

TUXs! You did a bad! You missed one group. Plain ol' PVEers. Don't be lumping us in with raiders (nothing against raiders, mind you, just that there are those of us who are PVEers and don't raid).

 

The story bit...I am not overjoyed with the companion aspect of KotFE. I'm also not up in arms about it...yet. I am willing, by virtue of my long enjoyment of BW offerings, to see where they take us.

 

I think he's lumping you with the story folks. I also think he's painting with an awful wide brush - there's plenty of people quietly enjoying the game and not coming anywhere near the forums.

[DarthDymond]

Fine...name me one group of player types that is happy right now. A group where there have been almost no complaints, mostly just praise.

 

It sure as hell isn't the PvEers/Raiders.

It sure as hell isn't the PvPers.

It sure as hell isn't GSFers.

It sure as hell isn't story folk. They don't want ONE story from 8...we don't even have Imp/Pub differences, or light/dark, or male/female, or anything of substance...we just play through to the next cut-scene. All of our companions have lost their uniqueness (which I like, just stating a fact).

 

So...what group is really happy right now in your opinion?

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that being "happy" with the game is some sort of absolute binary, where you either think things are 100% perfect or else you are unhappy.

 

As a story-focused player, I might be happier if there were 8 Class stories, but I'm still happy with the KOTFE story.

Edited May 11, 2016 by DarthDymond

[DieAlteHexe]

At the end of the day I can share frustrations people have because frankly, a lot of the problems that the game does have at least on the technical side could be fixed.

 

The problem we kind of have here is the one many MMOs run into, even The Big Ones (WoW and UO): rather than fix existing problems with new content, they pump out new expansions (with new problems )to try to court new users to replace the ones who leave. There are bugs in this game that have existed since release. I know. I was there

 

I think with SWTOR in particular there's a resistance to the naysaying because a lot of reviews burned and buried SWTOR probably quite unfairly. A lot of reviews I read on SWTOR, especially at time of release, obviously hand't played far past Coruscant or Dromund Kaas and they harped on about a lot of points that get better later on. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that there aren't (plenty of) legitimate issues.

 

Just as an example: One big bugbear for me (as someone with experience world-building in a variety of engines), is how many seams there are in the world. Go looking sometime where two "pieces" of the world meet. You'll find a lot of seams. It tanks performance and is probably why the game is so hard on GPUs it really shouldn't be. Another similar bugbear: floating items. There's a lot of items that aren't placed properly on Z-planes.

 

But that's just one particular thing I can provide. There's all kinds.

 

I think more than anything there's a feeling that Bioware isn't "doing enough" to really fix things. I'm not sure I entirely agree, but their process is pretty opaque compared to many other MMOs. I cast my mind back to UO townhalls where the Origin team downright explained what they changed to the code and the compiler errors they got. I don't expect quite that detailed, but it provides a quite striking contrast.

 

And gosh, I feel old that I can say I was part of the UO beta, haha.

 

I wasn't beta in UO, but my other half was. I was busy running a dev house. Heh. I did play on release. Was beta for EQ and WoW.

 

I learned that the whole "town hall" thing is a double-edged sword and that was with a tiny house by comparison. I could only imagine how that'd work out at the level of AAA MMOs (I suspect lots of alcohol might be involved on both sides of it). That said, I'm all in favour of as much information that can be given out, be given out. Sure there will be those for whom that's not "enough" but it would make others (like us) a bit more comfortable and, for me at least, something to think "oh boy, that sounds realllly cool".

[DieAlteHexe]

I think he's lumping you with the story folks. I also think he's painting with an awful wide brush - there's plenty of people quietly enjoying the game and not coming anywhere near the forums.

 

Well, I do not wish to be "lumped in".

 

It's a combination of things for me and I don't fit into any one category specifically.

 

So, yeah, broad brush indeed.

[TUXs]

TUXs! You did a bad! You missed one group. Plain ol' PVEers. Don't be lumping us in with raiders (nothing against raiders, mind you, just that there are those of us who are PVEers and don't raid).

 

The story bit...I am not overjoyed with the companion aspect of KotFE. I'm also not up in arms about it...yet. I am willing, by virtue of my long enjoyment of BW offerings, to see where they take us.

I didn't mean to lump you in with a group you don't associate with

 

There's nothing wrong with how you play nor how you feel, I'm talking more about groups that actually rely on updates.

 

So...can I ask, what do you do in game exactly? PvE is rather broad...so...?

[Max_Killjoy]

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that being "happy" with the game is some sort of absolute binary, where you either think things are 100% perfect or else you are unhappy.

 

As a story-focused player, I might be happier if there were 8 Class stories, but I'm still happy with the KOTFE story.

 

On the issue of binary state / false dichotomy... I find myself in the odd position of hating KotFE yet still having quite a bit of fun logging in and doing other things. I find myself in the odd position of criticizing Bioware for mistakes and ongoing issues, yet defending them from some of the more toxic and juvenile attacks that ooze through these forums.

[Jadescythe]

On the issue of binary state / false dichotomy... I find myself in the odd position of hating KotFE yet still having quite a bit of fun logging in and doing other things. I find myself in the odd position of criticizing Bioware for mistakes and ongoing issues, yet defending them from some of the more toxic and juvenile attacks that ooze through these forums.

 

Either the sky is falling or you're a fanboi, pick a side Max!

[DieAlteHexe]

I didn't mean to lump you in with a group you don't associate with

 

There's nothing wrong with how you play nor how you feel, I'm talking more about groups that actually rely on updates.

 

So...can I ask, what do you do in game exactly? PvE is rather broad...so...?

 

Dood! I rely on updates. I was chompin' at the bit over that whole Legacy screw-up.

 

I do missions, FPs, Heroics, I collect, I do achievements, I grow characters (sometimes very, very poorly and then I have to re-grow them and thank the BW gods that is easy), I craft, I take more care with my SHs than I do my own flat (that says something right there, dunnit? LOL), I help out my guild however I can. I socialise. I am always busy. Sometimes I get to feeling too busy and have to sit down and have a think about what I want to achieve instead of "oh, I wanna do that" or "oooh, look, over there, I need to do that".

[CaitiVoltaire]

I wasn't beta in UO, but my other half was. I was busy running a dev house. Heh. I did play on release. Was beta for EQ and WoW.

 

I learned that the whole "town hall" thing is a double-edged sword and that was with a tiny house by comparison. I could only imagine how that'd work out at the level of AAA MMOs (I suspect lots of alcohol might be involved on both sides of it). That said, I'm all in favour of as much information that can be given out, be given out. Sure there will be those for whom that's not "enough" but it would make others (like us) a bit more comfortable and, for me at least, something to think "oh boy, that sounds realllly cool".

 

Transparency is always a good thing. There's always some people that you can't please; so they shouldn't try to. But I think if they were more transparent about the development process and included people in it to some degree it would feel more as a collective thing. Right now it seems to cut very "us versus them" (look at the white knight vs doomsayer dichotomy that seems to happen with player discussion for instance), and it really doesn't have to be. If Bioware communicated what their setbacks were (and setbacks happen with EVERYTHING and EVERYONE, believe you me I know this), and how they were planning on overcoming them and so forth, it would engender greater confidence in the team, because they would come off as a team with a plan. As the title of this thread alludes to, people don't really feel the game has a plan to grow and fix things right now, and it's what seems to be the underlying bother to a lot of people.

Edited May 11, 2016 by CaitiVoltaire

[IanArgent]

I didn't mean to lump you in with a group you don't associate with

 

There's nothing wrong with how you play nor how you feel, I'm talking more about groups that actually rely on updates.

 

So...can I ask, what do you do in game exactly? PvE is rather broad...so...?

 

I dunno about DieAlteHexe, but I play a little bit of everything (but Ops, since my current lifestyle choices preclude regular guild runs, and I can't get into pugs for ops with the characters I'm comfortable running at that level). And I'm having a blast every time I log in.

 

The story could be a LOT better (there's a thread someplace where Max_Killjoy and I bat a couple of ideas back and forth; subtle changes for the most part); but the KotFE storyline is enjoyable enough, especially when I pace myself and don't try and ram all my alts through back to back and one on top of another. I have 1 alt through 13, another through 12, a third through 9. I'm probably going to bring a 4th through at least 9 shortly (the only thing stopping me is that I have 3 other alts levelling, one of whom I'm playing alongside my wife, and so that takes up most of my current playtime).

 

My wife happens to be a "story-primary" player and she's enjoying KotFE, despite playing a gunslinger; when asked she thought Ch.XII was decent enough, and currently can't wait to get our darkside Sith through to run KotFE again on. So, please, speak for yourself, or at most the tiny minority of players on the forums. Not the player base in general.

[DieAlteHexe]

Transparency is always a good thing. There's always some people that you can't please; so they shouldn't try to. But I think if they were more transparent about the development process and included people in it to some degree it would feel more as a collective thing. Right now it seems to cut very "us versus them" (look at the white knight vs doomsayer dichotomy that seems to happen with player discussion for instance), and it really doesn't have to be. If Bioware communicated what their setbacks were (and setbacks happen with EVERYTHING and EVERYONE, believe you me I know this), and how they were planning on overcoming them and so forth, it would engender greater confidence in the team, because they would come off as a team with a plan. As the title of this thread alludes to, people don't really feel the game has a plan to grow and fix things right now, and it's what seems to be the underlying bother to a lot of people.

 

I mostly agree but having been on "the other side of the fence", I know the downside to that whole "transparency" thing. It's a very fine line and I would wager that a lot of companies just don't want to put forth the effort to balance on it and end up saying: Damned it we do, damned if we don't. We'll just do it our way.". Not the greatest stance but a pragmatic one.

 

Kind of like the old "easier to ask for forgiveness than permission"...kinda.

[Codedrago]

Fine...name me one group of player types that is happy right now. A group where there have been almost no complaints, mostly just praise.

 

Apply that to any game in existence, no complaints is an impossibility unless you censor the feedback.

[CaitiVoltaire]

I mostly agree but having been on "the other side of the fence", I know the downside to that whole "transparency" thing. It's a very fine line and I would wager that a lot of companies just don't want to put forth the effort to balance on it and end up saying: Damned it we do, damned if we don't. We'll just do it our way.". Not the greatest stance but a pragmatic one.

 

Kind of like the old "easier to ask for forgiveness than permission"...kinda.

 

As games writer gone games developer gone corporate programmer gone a few other things gone games writer again (just indie this time), I've been on every possible side of that fence.

 

Especially actually the corp side. A shareholders meeting is like a townhall but bigger and literally every single person there can get you fired.

[Codedrago]

Either the sky is falling or you're a fanboi, pick a side Max!

 

As my signature indicates, Max is of the 'Scummy Fence Sitters'

[DieAlteHexe]

As games writer gone games developer gone corporate programmer gone a few other things gone games writer again (just indie this time), I've been on every possible side of that fence.

 

Especially actually the corp side. A shareholders meeting is like a townhall but bigger and literally every single person there can get you fired.

 

Instead of listing all the sides I've been on, I'll just say; no coding. Pretty much everything else from ownership on down to (mercy!) CS/TS. It has provided me with, obviously, more patience than many. It has also provided me with a deep cynicism. Oh, and fickle. If I am not happy with a game, I just mosey along to something I am. So simple.

 

Vote with one's wallet. *THAT* is what gets the bean-counters' attention. Pitching tantrums is easily ignored as just that, tantrums even if there's a kernel of truth in there.

Edited May 11, 2016 by DieAlteHexe
Cos I wasn't did!

[CaitiVoltaire]

Instead of listing all the sides I've been on, I'll just say; no coding. Pretty much everything else from ownership on down to (mercy!) CS/TS. It has provided me with, obviously, more patience than many. It has also provided me with a deep cynicism. Oh, and fickle. If I am not happy with a game, I just mosey along to something I am. So simple.

 

My gamedev experience is mapping/world-building/that stuff, mostly, and some 3D engine programming. It's why all the seams trigger me, haha. You wouldn't've gotten away with that where I worked!

 

Vote with one's wallet. *THAT* is what gets the bean-counters' attention. Pitching tantrums is easily ignored as just that, tantrums even if there's a kernel of truth in there.

 

"My only regret is I have only one upvote to give."

 

So much this.

Edited May 11, 2016 by CaitiVoltaire

[DieAlteHexe]

My gamedev experience is mapping/world-building/that stuff, mostly, and some 3D engine programming. It's why all the seams trigger me, haha. You wouldn't've gotten away with that where I worked!

 

Remember zone lines in UO? With all the mobs stacking up on 'em?

 

Sorry, I digress.

 

I tend toward nitpickery (QA). It's the small, seemingly "easy" things that get to me sometimes but then I remember coders showing me just how one of those small, "easy" things might not be so "easy".