Concerning writers and lore and storytelling

[Khevar]

This is more of a philosophical question than anything else. As fans, many of us really enjoy the detailed lore of a fictional universe. And when multiple writers get involved (such as SW) you have "lore" being created or modified by different writers.

 

Sometimes this results in anger/disagreement with the writer, sometimes it results in rather involved rationalizations of how this fits into the lore of the universe. Sometimes the rationalization becomes ratified (e.g. Kessel Run)

 

There is a fascinating forum post by Douglas Adams in response to a fan's question about Arthur Dent. The implication I get from his response is that he thinks an author shouldn't spend time thinking about lore, but should spend time writing a story.

 

So here's my questions:

 

Is it better to try and tell a good story without worrying too much about lore?

Is maintaining good lore important enough that an author needs to worry about it?

Edited February 26, 2016 by Khevar

[alricka]

It depends a lot on the genre we're talking about. I assume that since we're on a forum about a Star Wars video game, that the genres we're speaking of are sci-fi and/or fantasy. In general I think that when you're dealing with a fictional universe you have to have some idea about its worldbuilding, but the plot, and the characters with their story arcs should come first. George R.R. Martin, the author of the A Song of Ice and Fire novels, has said that a lot of the lore that is mentioned briefly in his books is just "smoke and mirrors", as in - a few cool sentences or allusions to fictional events here and there, in order to give the world some flavor and substance but nothing more. Of course, that same guy later released a huge encyclopedia about his fictional universe, so...

But let's not forget that an enormous chunk of Star Wars' lore came from the EU novels, games, comics and the like - not from the films themselves.

 

And if we're talking about a work of fiction that does not deal with a fictional universe, like a crime or a love story, how much "lore" do you really need? It's all relative.

[Khevar]

And if we're talking about a work of fiction that does not deal with a fictional universe, like a crime or a love story, how much "lore" do you really need? It's all relative.

This is a fair point. But the more novels set in the same universe, the more likely fans are going to either

 

a) Pick apart inconsistencies, and / or

b) Find reasonable explanations for said inconsistencies, even if the author never intended it that way.

 

The first Odd Thomas book, for example, was purely an expression of telling a specific story. As more books added to it, Koontz has the added problem of in-universe lore and continuity. I suppose there are also types of fans, however. Some may be happy to "go along for the ride" and not be bothered by changes to lore, but others may be more invested in the universe itself and be offended by the fact that the author isn't writing as through the fictional universe were actually real.

[Codedrago]

The focus should be the story, the lore is the icing on the cake. Though lore required to understand the context of the story should be foccused on as well.

[adormitul]

Sorry but if you write a story from a universe created by someone else you better follow the lore if its your own fictional universe well then you are terrible writer for contradicting the lore you made.

My opinion of course as stories with inconsistencies are terrible. Now that marvel writes Star Wars comics its gonna make me hate the franchise. They are the kings of inconsistencies.

[casirabit]

I would say keep within the guidelines of the timezone but you don't need to follow everything line for line that someone else has done. YOu can be a little creative even keeping within the time frame and the guidelines of the lore .

[Khevar]

Sorry but if you write a story from a universe created by someone else you better follow the lore if its your own fictional universe well then you are terrible writer for contradicting the lore you made.

My opinion of course as stories with inconsistencies are terrible. Now that marvel writes Star Wars comics its gonna make me hate the franchise. They are the kings of inconsistencies.

I get what you're saying, here.

 

Out of curiosity, did you read the Douglas Adams post I linked above? What are your thoughts on that? It's apparent that he doesn't keep an actual consistent universe in mind for his characters at all -- the question "what type of computer did Arthur Dent use" cannot be answered, according to him.

[adormitul]

I get what you're saying, here.

 

Out of curiosity, did you read the Douglas Adams post I linked above? What are your thoughts on that? It's apparent that he doesn't keep an actual consistent universe in mind for his characters at all -- the question "what type of computer did Arthur Dent use" cannot be answered, according to him.

 

I read it now you see I do not see what type of computer Arthur Dent uses matters in any way its like he said but when you say for example wolverine can die if you cut his head and in another issue he regenerates from a small blood patch he got from a wound well that is bad writing you contradicted the lore about him bringing inconsistency then you ask yourself why did he not have clones that appeared each time he was injured and blood or other body parts where lost which makes me reach the conclusion that this is such bad writing.

You see this kind of examples is what I mean happens when people ignore the lore. So what kind of Apple did Arthur Dent really does not matter because it does not affect the witting in any way but for example if there is a flashback and the author says Arthur Dent remembered writing in his Lenovo yeah its bad writing but tolerable as it does not affect the consistency of the universe to much its when you do things similar with the example I put above its a problem.

[MadDutchman]

For fantasy and sci-fi I think lore is critical.

 

If the lore changes, there should be an intentional retcon of the previous information, or some acknowledgement of the change at least.

 

For example, in the new Rebels episode:

 

Kallus tells Zeb the Lasat weren't supposed to be massacred, and it wasn't his decision, and he mentions "I know I took credit for it before"

 

 

It was a blatant change from what we saw earlier, but it works since it was addressed in universe, just because they wanted to take a character in a different direction.

[Eric_Skynwalker]

Odd that people should mention some things I was was thinking?! Of course the Lore in Star Wars TOR and other eras should correspond with it's era and characters that lived then. Storytelling too should concern all the ins and outs that took place within that unique Universe. For instance 1) Ericiswarsolo's Light Freighter has quite a bunch of characters upon it that are his companions, Corso Riggs of course, Bowdaar, Risha Drayen, Akaavi Spar. Captain Ericiswarsolo has a crush on the Zrabrakian Akaavi Spar and is inlove with Risha Drayen. 2) Eric has completed the search for the Drayen Crown and Risha Drayen is slowly thawing herself to his wit and charm though he has a hard time wooing her since she is a woman whom flirting is rather unknown to her. She deals with truths and sharing life details but is happy she has a home on his freighter being part of his crew. Of course Ericiswarsolo's questions to her and answers she gives are all part of the active lore in the storyarcs. 3) Most of the Storyarcs concern the aftermath of the Old Republic cleaning up the Empire's messes in the Galaxy. Akaavi Spar herself is another unique companion, her friends and family being killed by an foolish bumbling "General" at an Imperial Base as the General signed "Death Warrents" when Resistance Freedom Fighters of Zakbrakians were captured. Ericiswarsolo in the storyarc when he and Akaavi Spar catches up with the General allows her to kill the General honoriably extracting her avengement for the genocide the man created. Though as Akaavi Spar and Ericiswarsolo finds out the man is not neither a Imperial General nor the monster that all feared he was but a snivilling buffoon caught up in the war between the Old Republic and the Imperial Seperatist Empire.

 

In a way he was an monster, probably the worst kind of monster....for wealth he would sign death warrents and executions for protection from those whom family and friends died and was protected by the Imperial Military, when Ericiswarsolo catches up with him, all of the fakery falls away revealing the bloated tall figure that is scared of the shadows and wants to live the highlife that he seems to reach for but has bloated hunger that he finds impossible to achieve all of his goals.

[Eric_Skynwalker]

This is more of a philosophical question than anything else. As fans, many of us really enjoy the detailed lore of a fictional universe. And when multiple writers get involved (such as SW) you have "lore" being created or modified by different writers.

 

Sometimes this results in anger/disagreement with the writer, sometimes it results in rather involved rationalizations of how this fits into the lore of the universe. Sometimes the rationalization becomes ratified (e.g. Kessel Run)

 

There is a fascinating forum post by Douglas Adams in response to a fan's question about Arthur Dent. The implication I get from his response is that he thinks an author shouldn't spend time thinking about lore, but should spend time writing a story.

 

So here's my questions:

 

Is it better to try and tell a good story without worrying too much about lore?

Is maintaining good lore important enough that an author needs to worry about it?

 

Khevar, my answer is 1) Strike a good balance between telling a good story and faithfulness to the era and Universre it was written about. 2) If the author is familiar with the lore of a particular Universe then they must pay attention to the lore ie folktales and atleast write phrases that the characters they create are aware of the folktales they understand that have been told to them.

[BrianDavion]

the Douglas Adams article is irrelevent. why? because he's not writing Star Wars, he's writing in his stand alone book series etc. paying attention to the setting becomes more important in a collaborative story writing effort,

[Khevar]

Khevar, my answer is 1) Strike a good balance between telling a good story and faithfulness to the era and Universre it was written about. 2) If the author is familiar with the lore of a particular Universe then they must pay attention to the lore ie folktales and atleast write phrases that the characters they create are aware of the folktales they understand that have been told to them.

I can agree with that.

 

As a fan, I appreciate when I recognize something from an earlier work. It tells me that the author is likely to be a fan as well, or at least has enough familiarity with the subject material that they "think about it" it when writing.

the Douglas Adams article is irrelevent. why? because he's not writing Star Wars, he's writing in his stand alone book series etc. paying attention to the setting becomes more important in a collaborative story writing effort,

Are you saying that for a single author that writes multiple books in the same universe, paying attention to the setting is less important?

 

Why should a single author (as opposed to a collaborative story writing effort) get a free pass?

[Analyst]

Are you saying that for a single author that writes multiple books in the same universe, paying attention to the setting is less important?

 

Why should a single author (as opposed to a collaborative story writing effort) get a free pass?

I presume, the idea here is the following: a single author is literally the master of his/her universe. That is why the author can use any details that suit the story, and is able to change or retcon anything whenever the author likes. After all, no one knows the setting better than its creator. The success of it is another question.

Multiple authors, on the contrary, should and must take into account writings of each other, and take care of the plots for not to contradict each other. That is often unsuccessful, as Star Wars setting itself has pretty many retcons, and some of the mistakes were not addressed at all (like Ziost forests). That is why in the "shared universe" attention to the existing and changing lore is a necessary thing.

Though I must state that I disagree that a single author does not need so much attention to the lore, as the team. I always thought that any author should think the setting through and gather lots of details about it - no matter if they will be used or not.

[Temeluchus]

Lore adds depth and strengthens the story. Lore isn't necessary but it is incredibly helpful if the writer is worldbuilding or writing more than simply one book set in that universe.

[JennyFlynn]

I think the relevance of lore depends on the genre really. If you're writing science fiction, fantasy and the likes then I think lore really strengthens the story. Gives it a background that like, draws someone in even if it's not the kind of story they'd typically go for. If you're writing a modern day romance novel about 2 people in New York meeting and falling in love and stuff then well lore's not really a biggie.

 

That said if you're going to write for an established story with it's own rich lore then you ought to either honor that lore or when you don't, find an acceptable in-story excuse as to why something was changed. Something plausible that works.

 

Not if you're speaking about fan fiction though. Those can be.. well whatever you want them to be that's kind of the point isn't it? Push the extremes, give it your own flavor. I enjoy seeing what people come up with and lore isn't a massive factor for me there. Not unless they're going to officially publish their story as a part of the brand.

[Renitorius]

it depends what you mean by lore. I don't think there is necessarily a requirement for a detailed history and cultural narrative for the fictional universe.

 

However there is a need for a loose timeline of events in order to make a consistent history without contradiction.

 

Some inconsistencies can of course be explained as "many truths ... depend greatly on our own point of view."

 

For example from what we have seen Luke destroy's the Death Star in Ep IV. For all we know some bumbling moron inside might cause a catastrophic reactor failure and Luke's effort is merely coincidence.

 

However I don't know how you can explain that Leia remembers her mother and Luke doesn't given Padme dies immediately.

[alricka]

However I don't know how you can explain that Leia remembers her mother and Luke doesn't given Padme dies immediately.

Maybe she remembers her adoptive mother rather than Padme? Besides, there is no way that a newborn can remember what its mother looked like when she dies literally a few minutes after the birth.

[Evasmi]

Maybe she remembers her adoptive mother rather than Padme? Besides, there is no way that a newborn can remember what its mother looked like when she dies literally a few minutes after the birth.

I think I read somewhere on Wookiepedia or something that Leia's memory of Nata...I mean Padme was explained by some force vision/dream she had regarding her mother. Keep in mind that Leia only seems to remember that her mother was very beautiful.

[Eric_Skynwalker]

I think I read somewhere on Wookiepedia or something that Leia's memory of Nata...I mean Padme was explained by some force vision/dream she had regarding her mother. Keep in mind that Leia only seems to remember that her mother was very beautiful.

 

Very true, Evasmi; Leia told Luke what she remembers both as a very young child and living in the Alderaan Organa Household. Bail Organa's wife had sisters Leia Organa's aunts, if I recall right she had told Luke that there were 2 more sisters. Her Foster Mother contrary to Leia having a very happy life on Alderaan as a child; had a fairly sad and troubled one, since if SWs: TOR is realistic enough then her fostermother and even Padme' Amidala herself as a teenager and as a young adult would have been saddled by the duties of an Royal Organa Household. Most people both on the Thul side and Organa side note that both Thul and the Organas are equally ruthless and destructive to each other for the Seccession of the Crown Of Alderaan. It is their facts of life that after a time when Leia becomes a teenager and young adult that she too is saddled with duty to both her Clan and Royal Household Of Organa.