Are most new players just plain stupid?

[Haooll]

Must admit, when it comes to skipping trash or not I usually go with the flow of what the group wants to. The only time I don't is on Manaan just before the two terminal/consoles you need to disable before getting to Ortuno ... I always clear the trash that you can skip if you're quick enough ... because if Ortuno kills someone with flow/lghtning and they can't stelath past it then they can't res and run back in time to help ... and /or keep the fight going while others run back after dying ...

 

can be done have done it myself several times ... however with that mob in the way you're screwed.

[rantboi]

Must admit, when it comes to skipping trash or not I usually go with the flow of what the group wants to. The only time I don't is on Manaan just before the two terminal/consoles you need to disable before getting to Ortuno ... I always clear the trash that you can skip if you're quick enough ... because if Ortuno kills someone with flow/lghtning and they can't stelath past it then they can't res and run back in time to help ... and /or keep the fight going while others run back after dying ...

 

can be done have done it myself several times ... however with that mob in the way you're screwed.

 

They got rid of the door that closes when you start the Ortuno fight?

[Haooll]

They got rid of the door that closes when you start the Ortuno fight?

 

as far as i know there never was one but then I've only been doing that lvl fp for a few months ... usually if mob isn't cleared someone dies, runs back and we have Ortuno and mob to kill kindof amusing at times

[rantboi]

as far as i know there never was one but then I've only been doing that lvl fp for a few months ... usually if mob isn't cleared someone dies, runs back and we have Ortuno and mob to kill kindof amusing at times

 

yeah, nevemind, apparently it only has it in hm

[aerockyul]

They got rid of the door that closes when you start the Ortuno fight?

 

What happened to my group didn't have anything to do with the door during the fight: we all die to Ortuno. One of the people doesn't go back to the area start but waits for us to come rez him in Ortuno's room. However, we had skipped that group with the two big droids that you can run past. They don't keep walking like they do when you first get to that place, they stop and block anyone from going further, and the two sentries can detect stealth. So our group of three who went back to the area start had to get the fourth guy to finally come back as well so we could clear this mob that we could have just cleared at first and saved ourselves the wait altogether. (yes yes, if we don't die at Ortuno it doesn't matter, but this was just an illustration of how skipping mobs does not "save time")

[Liddyanna]

They need to develop a sort of 'Proving grounds' whereby you cannot progress to higher group content without passing trials based on your role.

These could be infinitely repeatable instanced trials with an NPC 'adviser' that picks up on scripted errors.

This could be:

DPS: Failure to achieve a minimum dps based on your average gear rating or killing the mobs in a time limit?

TANK: Failure to gain threat from all mobs (would need NPC dps)?

HEAL: Failure to heal everyone satisfactorily.

General: Failure to use a CC ability when required.

 

Changing a discipline to another role would require running the proving ground again for that role.

 

Too much work?

[LudhaninRolgge]

They need to develop a sort of 'Proving grounds' whereby you cannot progress to higher group content without passing trials based on your role.

These could be infinitely repeatable instanced trials with an NPC 'adviser' that picks up on scripted errors.

This could be:

DPS: Failure to achieve a minimum dps based on your average gear rating or killing the mobs in a time limit?

TANK: Failure to gain threat from all mobs (would need NPC dps)?

HEAL: Failure to heal everyone satisfactorily.

General: Failure to use a CC ability when required.

 

Changing a discipline to another role would require running the proving ground again for that role.

 

Too much work?

 

As I've stated numerous time, I'm all for this idea. But it should be more than DPS and threat farming. Something that require actual knowledge of your role like kill order for DPS, DPS pulling aggro or before the tank or threat reset for example for example, prioritizing heals and cleans for healers, and so on. But there should have various test you need to pass not just one. And gear should be totally irrelevant so you can't just overgear it.

[Torvai]

As I've stated numerous time, I'm all for this idea. But it should be more than DPS and threat farming. Something that require actual knowledge of your role like kill order for DPS, DPS pulling aggro or before the tank or threat reset for example for example, prioritizing heals and cleans for healers, and so on. But there should have various test you need to pass not just one. And gear should be totally irrelevant so you can't just overgear it.

 

You mean like it is in WoW?

[PLynkes]

They need to develop a sort of 'Proving grounds' whereby you cannot progress to higher group content without passing trials based on your role.

These could be infinitely repeatable instanced trials with an NPC 'adviser' that picks up on scripted errors.

This could be:

DPS: Failure to achieve a minimum dps based on your average gear rating or killing the mobs in a time limit?

TANK: Failure to gain threat from all mobs (would need NPC dps)?

HEAL: Failure to heal everyone satisfactorily.

General: Failure to use a CC ability when required.

 

Changing a discipline to another role would require running the proving ground again for that role.

 

Too much work?

 

I don't trust this crew to be able to make such a thing and have it work as intended. It would bugged for months and perfectly capable players would end up locked out of content they can easily do. That's just how the SWTOR devs roll.

[Kibegami]

Answer: affirmative.

 

Some dudes wanted to to DPHM last night.

I joined them a as a H. Thought if they do DPHM they must be above average at least.

From the other 7 only 1 had any clue about the op and sufficient gear for it.

 

Tanks didnt know how to actually arrive to the op (except walking all the way). Then 1 started to pull to clear mobs.

While I stunned an interrogator, the other H shoot mob instead of using a stun.

A sent was tanking the mobs (which I appreciated and healed him). Worked fine until another shadow dmg pulled the 2 creatures that must be tanked separately or they over-buff.

 

I exited group after that.

 

Are you on TRE, I think i joined the same fail group on my dps guard

[LudhaninRolgge]

You mean like it is in WoW?

 

Yes. I've never played WoW, but from what I've heard it seems a good idea.

[Torvai]

Yes. I've never played WoW, but from what I've heard it seems a good idea.

 

It is. You're in an Arena and have three proving grounds(for dps, heal and tanks) each with three difficulties, bronze, silver and gold. You have to do bronze to do silver and you have to complete silver to be able to queue up for heroic dungeons(which would be HM FP's). Gold is simply for e-peen measurement

As a tank, you get a friendly npc that heals you and deals damage. Then you have different waves of different enemies you have to tank away from him, use your dcd's so his heals are enough to keep you up, interrupt some mobs, move out of aoe/position yourself in a way that the enemy mobs are standing in it, since it damages them as well. Theres some mob that has a frequent aggrodrop you need to taunt back. If you die(you don't die, but instead get healed back to full the moment you would) because you didn't manage your active mitigation properly you failed.

A Healer gets a full party of npc's, basically a tank and 3 dps, that fight waves of enemys and you need to keep them all up, dispelling now and then, again moving out of aoes(which your npc group mates won't do ). Obviously, if your group dies, you've failed.

A dps simply fights waves of enemies that won't do damage, but you need to position yourself properly, since there are mobs that have a shield in front of them(you can only attack them from behind) and when they finish channeling the shield they turn in a random direction and channel it again. Theres one kind of mob that fires orbs at you that stun you. But if you position yourself in a way that it hits the mobs they actually get stunned to and take more damage. Then there are healers you need to cc/interrupt in order to kill them and you need to move out of aoe that reduces your damage(in the form of bananas on the ground. Blizzard has some sense of humor:D ). If any mobs are alive when the next wave arrives(they are based on a timer) you've failed.

 

So it teaches the basics of groupplay(positioning/moving out of stupid, using interrupts, how to tank and heal halfway properly) and you can't outgear it, because your stats get scaled up or down, depending on your gear. Thing about that is though, that your setbonuses and trinkets still work. And these things are way more important to performance than they are here in swtor(for example my pala tanks set resets one of my hardest hitting abilitys cooldown when I use it with a 50% chance, which is huge). So these make it alot easier, but you only get them out of raids.

 

There's even an achievement named "Somebody doesn't understand the game" (translated freely from how it's named in german) that you get if you finish a silver proving ground(the one you need to be able to queue for hc) in a spec not suited for it, so going in a dps challenge specced as tank for example.

 

I was kind of hoping that Bio was going to adapt this concept with the "Eternal Championship" when I first read about it. But it's just another stupid grind:(

 

And in case anyone wonders, this isn't supposed to be a "WoW is so much better" post. The only reason I actually play wow atm is that there's actualy content that I didn't farm for the last 4 years. There are enough things that constantly annoy me about wow that are better in swtor. And of course the other way around. Both games have their flaws.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Torvai

[LudhaninRolgge]

Snip

 

That sounds great ! I don't like WoW because the Warcraft universe doesn't appeal to me, but it has some great idea. I mean, I understand that Bioware wants to catch as manny new player as they can and that failing repeatedly can scare a lot of people away, but bad PuG experience are scaring more advanced player too. I know I don't PuG as much as I use to be because of a lot of bad experience. And if there's noone left to PuG, then servers are gonna empty because people can't find people to raid with, guild can't find PuG to complete their group, etc.

[Liddyanna]

I don't trust this crew to be able to make such a thing and have it work as intended. It would bugged for months and perfectly capable players would end up locked out of content they can easily do. That's just how the SWTOR devs roll.

 

You made a very, VERY good point.

Forget what I said.

[AlphaResolve]

I had a terrible time in my first mmo. I tanked as a Warrior in FF14 and took awhile to find a vid on youtube of someone going through proper tanking techniques like marking. After that I was set, even so I still have trouble time to time, especially in event's I haven't done before but I've been fortunate enough to have experience people who were constructive.

I find that the real ignorant players are the experience players who stay quiet or dish out insults on someone new about fighting mechanics. Sure there are things you can't teach like this one dps we had who only used his auto fire the entire tactic flashpoint or someone who constantly dies in the same AOE, and they're excluded but if you don't at least try to be constructive and walk a newb through, if necessary, then you're just as guilty for the party losing.

[rawtravel]

I agree that a lot of it is ignorance. Not just for SWTOR, but perhaps for MMO's in general.

 

For me, SWTOR was the first MMO I had ever played. So I was reeeeaaallllly ignorant. I did not know any of the terms such as LOS, AOE, DPS, etc. The concept of tank/damage/heals working together was also brand new to me.

 

I found that the game itself give almost no information on "how to play" beyond the tool tips. Heck even the guides on Dulfy pretty much assume that you understand the lingo. Sure it's elementary for anyone who has played any MMO before, but being my first I felt completely in the dark.

 

It took me forever to level up my first toon (toon" what's a toon?), because I had to lose almost every fight a few times before I figured out what I was doing wrong. I can remember when I hit lvl 10 with my first toon, a Sorcerer. I defeated Kem Val, after about a dozen wipes. The feeling of elation I had when I finally beat him, and then gained him as my awesome companion, was unforgettable. I was whooping and jumping up and down in my home office. It was past Midnight and I woke my wife and daughter. They were like "are you okay?!"

 

Because I was so new, I avoided FPs for a very long time. I just did every mission I could find on every planet, and I think I was at or near max lvl before I did my first GF queue. I was so scared that I would be awful and ruin it for everyone, but It went fine and no one even called me out for being a noob, which I most certainly was. I'm sure that if I had been more courageous and tried the GF before spending about a year learning how to MMO and specifically how to play my Sorcerer, that I would have been yelled at big time..."L2P NOOB", (both terms I had to Google, btw.), etc.

 

Thankfully, during the first few FPs I actually did meet some vets who were happy to offer advice, which I followed of course, and I started picking it up pretty quickly after that. So I suppose some folks might actually be "stupid", but I think a far greater percentage are just ignorant, and maybe even scared to admit it.

 

So be kind to the "less good" among us and offer a helping hand. It makes the game, and the MMO community a better place to play.

[Jerba]

snip

Totally reminds me of my experience leveling my first character. I wouldn't say that I was ignorant at the start because I was always willing to learn and looked up terms that I didn't understand, but I did some stupid things back then. Interestingly enough, people call SWTOR a casual MMO but I found it hard to get into because many things are not explained in-game.

 

Like the whole need/greed window was confusing, I thought greed would give me dark side points so I always needed until someone finally explained it to me. They could have just included better tooltips; instead of just saying "Need" it could say "Need: This item is better than what you currently have and you can immediately use it" or something similar.

Or the main stats (before they were called Mastery). The Strength tooltip said it was for melee attacks, and Aim was for range attacks. I didn't realize that as a Smuggler I'd have to use Cunning. They should have done something foolproof like saying "This stat is Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors only, it is useless to other classes."

 

The only group content I ever really did was carrying new players through Esseles for the 100th time because the server died out and you couldn't players for anything else at low level.

 

My point is that everyone started out as a noob, and guides can only get you so far. Even players wanting to learn will either not find a guide (because SWTOR is badly documented) or it will be an outdated one from 2012 (crafting guides anyone?). The best guides are the players.

Specifically, I try to be much more friendly in flashpoints now. Previously, I always insisted on a fast run, giving the triple dot whenever someone pulled a group that could be skipped but I realized that there's no point in a fast run. The rewards are meaningless anyway so if I wanted credits or comms, there are better ways to get them. Instead, when I now queue for group finder, the first thing I say is "pls tell me if you are new to the flashpoint, I can explain" because we can no longer expect that players will say this on their own. And you reach those players much better than in the middle of the flashpoint or after a wipe; they then just want to get it over with and don't listen to advice.

Obivously, this is also somewhat egoistic because I still want to find players for flashpoints and operations in half a year from now. My hope is that if enough players do the same, the PvE endgame will not die out and the new generation of players will get over the steep learning curve and learn to love group content.

Over time, I'm sure those players will realize that it's better to skip trash groups to make it go faster, but this will take a while. And from time to time, I do get an experienced group that can finish the flashpoint in half the time that an inexperienced group needs, and this remains a lot of fun for me.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Jerba

[AlrikFassbauer]

I found that the game itself give almost no information on "how to play" beyond the tool tips. Heck even the guides on Dulfy pretty much assume that you understand the lingo. Sure it's elementary for anyone who has played any MMO before, but being my first I felt completely in the dark.

 

This is an far too ngood example of Curse Of Knowledge - everyone knows the game far too well to even be able to understand the problems of fresh Newbies.

 

I have found this as well.

 

And I have never seen attempts to explain things at an level so much basic that fresh Newbies ( DDO lingo : "first lifers" ) would be able to understand it.

 

Everyone just writes "L2P" instead.

[WarCan]

I've played since Launch, but only recently learned:

 

Righ-click on the BUFF icon over you picture removes it.

 

This is good on those GSI Droids you DON'T want during a SOLO mode. Or those Snowball after-effects we've seen from the recent holiday. And plenty more.

[ludoviccb]

This is an far too ngood example of Curse Of Knowledge - everyone knows the game far too well to even be able to understand the problems of fresh Newbies.

 

I have found this as well.

 

And I have never seen attempts to explain things at an level so much basic that fresh Newbies ( DDO lingo : "first lifers" ) would be able to understand it.

 

Everyone just writes "L2P" instead.

 

The problem is that some people start really really far that explaining it would take more time than running the entire thing. One case that I had, was a commando, using tank gear, in healer discipline while queued as dps in a HM FP was using only 2 abilities to kill things. Sticky Grenade at the start of the fight and for the rest it was Hammer Shot until the thing was dead.

 

I've teached people how to gear themselves, I've teached rotation and abilities to others, I've teached how to heal, dps or tank to others and I've teached how to pick their spec/discipline. But when you get at level 65 some case like that in GF and you wipe due to boss enrage because of that guy, do you really want to spend the next few hours trying to teach him, and that is if he is ready to learn (that guy in my exemple wrote **** You when I whispered him about what he should do). Odds are, people with kick him with a L2P comment and put him on ignore.

 

The game should have teached him, at least the basic of gearing, choosing his discipline and which role in a group that disciple is, some basic concept of rotation to dps/heal/tank and a basing understanding of his role.

[PorsaLindahl]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's mostly ignorance. Stupid can come from anyone, old or new, experienced or inexperienced.

 

Ignorance: Not interrupting that one shot channel from a boss the first time you encounter it.

Stupid: Not interrupting that one shot from that same boss on future encounters.

 

Ignorance: Getting a ground target under you that moves with you and staying close to your group members instead of taking if off to the side so they don't take damage from it.

Stupidity: Getting a ground target under you that moves with you and staying close to your group members instead of taking it off to the side, repeatedly causing your group to take unnecessary damage.

 

Ignorance: Not knowing a flashpoint or operation.

Stupid: Not speaking up and saying "Hey, it's my first time here."

 

Ignorance: Not knowing your role.

Stupid: Failure to take friendly advice on how to improve in your role. And failure on the vet's part to give advice in a friendly manner and not a smug, or superior sounding way.

 

Also wanted to point out that as awesome as dulfy's is, it's not a bible. Some information is outdated and some is just incorrect.

[Khevar]

And I have never seen attempts to explain things at an level so much basic that fresh Newbies ( DDO lingo : "first lifers" ) would be able to understand it.

I've seen plenty of people do that here in the forums. I've seen people break down things for people new to RPGs in general, let alone new to MMORPGs. I've seen posts explaining terminology. I've seen posts explaining game dynamics. I've seen posts giving tips for things people may have missed.

 

Have you honestly never seen this yourself?

[ButeoRegalis]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's mostly ignorance. Stupid can come from anyone, old or new, experienced or inexperienced.

 

Ignorance: Not interrupting that one shot channel from a boss the first time you encounter it.

Stupid: Not interrupting that one shot from that same boss on future encounters.

 

Ignorance: Getting a ground target under you that moves with you and staying close to your group members instead of taking if off to the side so they don't take damage from it.

Stupidity: Getting a ground target under you that moves with you and staying close to your group members instead of taking it off to the side, repeatedly causing your group to take unnecessary damage.

 

Ignorance: Not knowing a flashpoint or operation.

Stupid: Not speaking up and saying "Hey, it's my first time here."

 

Ignorance: Not knowing your role.

Stupid: Failure to take friendly advice on how to improve in your role. And failure on the vet's part to give advice in a friendly manner and not a smug, or superior sounding way.

 

Also wanted to point out that as awesome as dulfy's is, it's not a bible. Some information is outdated and some is just incorrect.

 

I agree, by and large, though I'd add a qualifier for the "stupid" sections: "after it's been pointed out to the player". Not everything that is obvious to you is obvious to other people.

 

If someone doesn't interrupt that one-shot channel from the boss, do tell them, that's what needs to happen. Don't expect them to be able to read your mind. If they still screw up, after being told what to do, then yea, the needle is moving towards "stupid" on the scale.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Have you honestly never seen this yourself?

 

In the Newbies forum, yes, but outside of that ?

 

Most people here don't even remember anymore how lost they had felt when entering their very first MMO ... I guess that most people posting here are already MMO veterans who already know the basics ...

[LudhaninRolgge]

I agree, by and large, though I'd add a qualifier for the "stupid" sections: "after it's been pointed out to the player". Not everything that is obvious to you is obvious to other people.

 

If someone doesn't interrupt that one-shot channel from the boss, do tell them, that's what needs to happen. Don't expect them to be able to read your mind. If they still screw up, after being told what to do, then yea, the needle is moving towards "stupid" on the scale.

 

If people took the time to read the tooltip, nobody should have to explain to interrupt. You'd still have to explain what to interrupt, but that's all.