Juggernauts OP? No. Heres why: A guide to defeat juggernauts

[Qwurdilu]

You need to treat juggernauts a lot like dps sorcs. For both classes, their main defensive CD is a big amount selfheal.

Whats important to know about this, it does NOT mitigate dmg. It does heal for a set amount of life.

 

So against dmg incoming from one person, this is very efficient.

Against dmg. from multiple targets, its very inefficient.

 

Aside from selfheal, juggernaut has very little damage mitigation. So a valid tactic against juggernauts is to just burn through. This is the mainreason this class is not considered top tier for teamranked, its defensive is crap against big amounts of damage.

 

So for godsake please stop all the cry in the forums and learn to fight against this. I agree its very annoying in regs or in 1vs1 situations, but juggernauts defensive cooldowns are very lackluster for teamranked. So please stop cry about it

 

Look at teamranked. Theres solid evidence its defensives cooldown are lackluster.

[helpmewin]

So for godsake please stop all the cry in the forums and learn to fight against this. I agree its very annoying in regs or in 1vs1 situations, but juggernauts defensive cooldowns are very lackluster for teamranked. So please stop cry about it

 

Look at teamranked. Theres solid evidence its defensives cooldown are lackluster.

 

Peoples don't care about team ranked, its rare. 95%+ play regs and even didn't try solo or grp.

 

P.S.Arenas fails for many reasons. 8*8 RWZ is a way to go, but its never happens tho.

Edited January 13, 2016 by helpmewin

[Hoppinswtor]

You need to treat juggernauts a lot like dps sorcs. For both classes, their main defensive CD is a big amount selfheal.

Whats important to know about this, it does NOT mitigate dmg. It does heal for a set amount of life.

 

So against dmg incoming from one person, this is very efficient.

Against dmg. from multiple targets, its very inefficient.

 

Aside from selfheal, juggernaut has very little damage mitigation. So a valid tactic against juggernauts is to just burn through. This is the mainreason this class is not considered top tier for teamranked, its defensive is crap against big amounts of damage.

 

So for godsake please stop all the cry in the forums and learn to fight against this. I agree its very annoying in regs or in 1vs1 situations, but juggernauts defensive cooldowns are very lackluster for teamranked. So please stop cry about it

 

Look at teamranked. Theres solid evidence its defensives cooldown are lackluster.

 

Use the esc key and a GCD of aoe damage during reflect, mezz during heal to full, and be careful about unshakeable/pooled hatred. With all that said, jugs are still VERY lethal against sorcs/mercs/marauders, but as the OP said, they're not quite as ranked viable as some other classes.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Hoppinswtor

[Cretinus]

You need to treat juggernauts a lot like dps sorcs. For both classes, their main defensive CD is a big amount selfheal.

Whats important to know about this, it does NOT mitigate dmg. It does heal for a set amount of life.

 

So against dmg incoming from one person, this is very efficient.

Against dmg. from multiple targets, its very inefficient.

 

Aside from selfheal, juggernaut has very little damage mitigation. So a valid tactic against juggernauts is to just burn through. This is the mainreason this class is not considered top tier for teamranked, its defensive is crap against big amounts of damage.

 

So for godsake please stop all the cry in the forums and learn to fight against this. I agree its very annoying in regs or in 1vs1 situations, but juggernauts defensive cooldowns are very lackluster for teamranked. So please stop cry about it

 

Look at teamranked. Theres solid evidence its defensives cooldown are lackluster.

 

Without me discussing whether juggs are OP or not.

Why do people think that their class is supposed to win every 1X1, but is still balanced because it goes down when focussed by many?! Why do people tell others that they are bad because they do not group with 4 others in order to beat their class, but then find it perfectly balanced that their class gets away with not having to group with anybody?! I'm so tired of these double standards discussions!

[aristrokratie]

Without me discussing whether juggs are OP or not.

Why do people think that their class is supposed to win every 1X1, but is still balanced because it goes down when focussed by many?! Why do people tell others that they are bad because they do not group with 4 others in order to beat their class, but then find it perfectly balanced that their class gets away with not having to group with anybody?! I'm so tired of these double standards discussions!

 

simple fix: nerf their healing and give them damage mitigation instead. This would be better in 4s but balance it against fewer enemies

[Jaggannath]

simple fix: nerf their healing and give them damage mitigation instead. This would be better in 4s but balance it against fewer enemies

 

A better fix might be you getting good.

[Savej]

Juggs don't win dueling tournaments. While they aren't the worst 1v1 class I wouldn't even put them in the top 4 non-healers.

[aristrokratie]

A better fix might be you getting good.

Jugg feelin insulted. lol

[aristrokratie]

Juggs don't win dueling tournaments. While they aren't the worst 1v1 class I wouldn't even put them in the top 4 non-healers.

I'd only say ap and concealment beats them, though they're close.

[Ruhun]

Jugg feelin insulted. lol

 

I also told you to get good and I roll Maras and Sins.

 

As an OP healer you should be able to handle Juggs fine, so apply yourself my friend.

[aristrokratie]

I also told you to get good and I roll Maras and Sins.

 

As an OP healer you should be able to handle Juggs fine, so apply yourself my friend.

Either you are ignorant ore you just don't read my posts before telling me to l2p.

 

I have no problem whatsoever on my ophealer with kiting juggs. I just hate the fotmwave of never dying hardhitting spank tanks that's started on my server.

It's even worse because there's sorchealers making their butt glow purple.

Per match there are perhaps 3-4 non jugg/sorcs and they're usually pts.

Edited January 13, 2016 by aristrokratie

[Ruhun]

Either you are ignorant ore you just don't read my posts before telling me to l2p.

 

I have no problem whatsoever on my ophealer with kiting juggs. I just hate the fotmwave of never dying hardhitting spank tanks that's started on my server.

It's even worse because there's sorchealers making their butt glow purple.

Per match there are perhaps 3-4 non jugg/sorcs and they're usually pts.

 

No I've read your posts, and the only thing making them unkillable are their pocket healers.

Immortal alone can be handled.

[Jaggannath]

Jugg feelin insulted. lol

 

Jaggannath is my name. You are free to google this. it's an actual name, not a fairly uncommon one in another part of the world.

 

Like I first said bud, you need to get good and maybe do a little research before everytime you hit the post button.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Without me discussing whether juggs are OP or not.

Why do people think that their class is supposed to win every 1X1, but is still balanced because it goes down when focussed by many?! Why do people tell others that they are bad because they do not group with 4 others in order to beat their class, but then find it perfectly balanced that their class gets away with not having to group with anybody?! I'm so tired of these double standards discussions!

 

Interesting point.

[RodneyMcNeely]

I'd only say ap and concealment beats them, though they're close.

Oddly enough, I don't feel that weak against Concealment Ops on my Focus Guardian. I find Lethality MUCH harder to deal with because of the mobility; of course that's the exact same weakness we have against AP Powertechs.

 

But to the OPs original point, I really feel this spec is on an even playing field in a 1v1 situation. However, if you're being focused by more than 1 player, you're going to wither pretty quickly.

[Mordresh]

So what I learned from this guide on how to kill a juggernaut is:

 

1. Get a bunch of people.

2. Kill him.

 

Got it.

[RodneyMcNeely]

So what I learned from this guide on how to kill a juggernaut is:

 

1. Get a bunch of people.

2. Kill him.

 

Got it.

Pretty much this.

[RodneyMcNeely]

Juggs don't win dueling tournaments. While they aren't the worst 1v1 class I wouldn't even put them in the top 4 non-healers.

Way back in the day (I don't remember the patch, but it was the one that nerfed Shadow/Assassin tank self-heals, there was a Vengeance Juggernaut named Plastic-cup that pretty much never lost a 1v1.

 

I know that the meta has changed TREMENDOUSLY since then, but I'm starting to feel that Focus/Rage is in the same place that Vigilance/Vengeance was then.

 

I'm seeing a number of players that are downright SCARY with the spec, especially against stealth classes.

 

Of course, I wouldn't discount a bit of wishful thinking on my part, either, since that's what I'm playing at the moment. LOL!

 

[Qwurdilu]

Without me discussing whether juggs are OP or not.

Why do people think that their class is supposed to win every 1X1, but is still balanced because it goes down when focussed by many?! Why do people tell others that they are bad because they do not group with 4 others in order to beat their class, but then find it perfectly balanced that their class gets away with not having to group with anybody?! I'm so tired of these double standards discussions!

 

You didnt get the point where i explained the differences between damage mitigation and selfheal. While jugg is good at 1vs1 its utter crap when beeing hit by multiple targets. That is not because 2 is better than 1. Its about damagemititgation vs selfheal. Its because selfheal scales worse than mitigation the higher the numbers. From my experience in teamranked, juggs take about 30-50% more damage in teamranked than maros. The selfheal does not even close make up for it.

I`d really love to play guardian in teamranked but its not viable because of the lack of proper defense. I run marauder instead.

So the point is, just because its awesome in a 1vs1 situation and annoying as **** when trying to get a kill, does not mean it translates well into group situations.

I can assure you that everyone who has a clue about this game will rate marauders defenses multiple times better than juggs.

 

P.S.: my main is sentinel so im not defending my class here. I just want this nonsense jugg hate to stop, because this problem only exists on rock bottom skill level.

[Racter]

P.S.: my main is sentinel so im not defending my class here. I just want this nonsense jugg hate to stop, because this problem only exists on rock bottom skill level.

 

95%+ of the player base is at that rock bottom skill level these days m8. Everything is OP to them.

 

Juggernauts are not even close to OP and it's astounding that someone could honestly think so tbh

[Cretinus]

You didnt get the point where i explained the differences between damage mitigation and selfheal. While jugg is good at 1vs1 its utter crap when beeing hit by multiple targets. That is not because 2 is better than 1. Its about damagemititgation vs selfheal. Its because selfheal scales worse than mitigation the higher the numbers. From my experience in teamranked, juggs take about 30-50% more damage in teamranked than maros. The selfheal does not even close make up for it.

I`d really love to play guardian in teamranked but its not viable because of the lack of proper defense. I run marauder instead.

So the point is, just because its awesome in a 1vs1 situation and annoying as **** when trying to get a kill, does not mean it translates well into group situations.

I can assure you that everyone who has a clue about this game will rate marauders defenses multiple times better than juggs.

 

P.S.: my main is sentinel so im not defending my class here. I just want this nonsense jugg hate to stop, because this problem only exists on rock bottom skill level.

 

Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense.

Obviously, juggs go faster down against several opponents than agains one, like any other class.

But they don't go faster down against several opponents than mercs, PTs, maras, or DPS sorcs do. It doesn't matter how many theories about self heal and mitigation you present here, juggs are the second most resilient classes in this game, both in 1x1 and also against a small group.

(The most resilient class is sorc healer, but this one is completely broken.)

[Qwurdilu]

Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense

 

It does, you just fail to understand. There is a fundamental difference between damage mitigation and selfheal.

 

Assume someone throws 50k damage at jugg. 50k Selfheal will cover it, so its a 100% damage negating cooldown.

Assume someones throws 100k damage at jugg. 50k Selfheal will cover 50%, its still very effective.

Assume someone thows 250k damage at jugg. 50k selfheal cover about 20%.

Assume somones throws 750k damage at jugg. Selfheal covers for roughly 7% of it.

 

As you can see, it gets less and less effective the more damage is applied. Get it?

 

On the other hand, damage mitigiation cooldowns like cloak of pain 20% will provide the amount no matter how much damage you throw at it. its allways 20% no matter if the incoming damage is 10k or 2 million.

 

Any more questions?

[Iseko]

I dont fully agree either.

 

A juggy immortal with proper utilities:

2 defensive dmg mitigation cooldowns. One is rather good.

Enraged defense (should be the first thing you pop as it has the lowest cooldown)

Assuming a minimum of 80k base hp, with endure becomes 100+k hp. Followed by medpack = 35+k heal.

Reflect: if you see ranged burst lining up, pop it. Returned dmg is capped but burst is negated.

 

A long with the fact that they can guard friendlies, taunt like mad. Got 2 hard stuns, 1 aoe soft stun and push.

 

Plus:42% base dmg reduction from HA + soresu

 

Overal dps is about 1.5k with a nice burst possibility and a 10-12k aoe dmg attack (10-12k per person in one hit).

 

How in the hell is that considered bad? I play a sentinel also and why I must say the sentinel is great for hunting down healers and generally doing insane dmg. Their survivability is nowhere near that of an immortal jug.

 

A sorc healer with an immortal dps juggy, marauder and a AP PT is a viable combo imo.

 

The sorc heals obv. The juggy tanks, cc's and adds to dps. The mara and pt nuke the enemies.

[Qwurdilu]

I dont fully agree either.

 

A juggy immortal with proper utilities:

2 defensive dmg mitigation cooldowns. One is rather good.

Enraged defense (should be the first thing you pop as it has the lowest cooldown)

Assuming a minimum of 80k base hp, with endure becomes 100+k hp. Followed by medpack = 35+k heal.

Reflect: if you see ranged burst lining up, pop it. Returned dmg is capped but burst is negated.

 

A long with the fact that they can guard friendlies, taunt like mad. Got 2 hard stuns, 1 aoe soft stun and push.

 

Plus:42% base dmg reduction from HA + soresu

 

Overal dps is about 1.5k with a nice burst possibility and a 10-12k aoe dmg attack (10-12k per person in one hit).

 

How in the hell is that considered bad? I play a sentinel also and why I must say the sentinel is great for hunting down healers and generally doing insane dmg. Their survivability is nowhere near that of an immortal jug.

 

A sorc healer with an immortal dps juggy, marauder and a AP PT is a viable combo imo.

 

The sorc heals obv. The juggy tanks, cc's and adds to dps. The mara and pt nuke the enemies.

 

Thats obviously pugs or rock bottom ranked. Any decent team will destroy immortal juggs 100:0. Game shouldnt be balanced around bads imho.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Qwurdilu

[Cretinus]

It does, you just fail to understand. There is a fundamental difference between damage mitigation and selfheal.

 

Assume someone throws 50k damage at jugg. 50k Selfheal will cover it, so its a 100% damage negating cooldown.

Assume someones throws 100k damage at jugg. 50k Selfheal will cover 50%, its still very effective.

Assume someone thows 250k damage at jugg. 50k selfheal cover about 20%.

Assume somones throws 750k damage at jugg. Selfheal covers for roughly 7% of it.

 

As you can see, it gets less and less effective the more damage is applied. Get it?

 

On the other hand, damage mitigiation cooldowns like cloak of pain 20% will provide the amount no matter how much damage you throw at it. its allways 20% no matter if the incoming damage is 10k or 2 million.

 

Any more questions?

 

Congratulations. You've just discovered the difference between absolute and relative figures. Well done.

 

And BTW, it surely doesn't get less and less effective the more damage is applied. It simply doesn't escalate with the applied damage, which is something completely different.

 

Thats obviously pugs or rock bottom ranked. Any decent team will destroy immortal juggs 100:0. Game shouldnt be balanced around bads imho.

 

Game shouldn't be balanced around bads you say, but then you want it to be balanced around noobsters who aren't able to survive on an immortal jugg, which btw is the most resilient tank in game?! That's quite a contradiction.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Cretinus