The good, the bad and the ugly

[ekwalizer]

There has been a great volume of discussions since the release of Knights of the Fallen Empire (KotFE) regarding the state of the game. I would like to capture many aspects of the game, not exclusive to FE, in terms of both the positive and the negative. I will attempt to structure this in to blocks containing both good and bad along with recommendations for improvement. If you choose to participate in this thread, please keep it civil. Rather than simply complaining, lets provide them with feedback that is structured in terms of positive, negative and recommendations for improvement.

 

What you (Bioware) have done is taken a AAA MMORPG that was in the top 10 earning MMORPGs in 2014 with a revenue over $100,000,000 and dramatically altered it away from what it is supposed to be at its core. This is an MMORPG, it did not make over $100M in 2014 as a SPRPG with multiplayer options. And to be clear, yes changing the game from a "traditional" MMORPG with voice acting to a SPRPG with optional grouping is a major change.

 

The first at-large recommendation I can make pertains to staffing. Hire interns. Battle.net .... Blizzard ... ya know World of Warcraft, they use interns to this day. Star Wars Galaxies (SWG) used interns for years to augment their paid development staff. As free labor it is good for you and it is good for them to gain experience in game design. With only a skeleton crew of paid staff, SWG was able to produce content every six weeks from 2007 until well into 2011; thanks to the use of interns. Specifically, I mean for bug bashing and to assist with developmental coding. Not to tinker with the economy. Also, a poster below believes that there could be a large cost associated with hiring interns, but I contend that there are many vacant seats in this game's studio so no new machines or office expansion would be required. OJT is much more cost effective than a formalized training pipeline.

 

The second at-large recommendation I will make is that you learn from the mistakes of others and try to not duplicate said mistakes - because you are currently doing exactly that. Understand, Bioware, that you are in fact fallible. Not every “good idea” is actually a good idea. The "good idea fairy" should be swatted with a hammer 99% of the time. It is not my desire to demonize anyone, I firmly believe that the entire SWTOR team wants what is best for the game. However, wanting what is best and doing what is best are often not the same thing.

 

On the lessons of New Coke, Don Keough, President Coca-Cola 1981-1993:

“I realized… that this was not a marketing issue; it was instead a deep psychological issue. A brand is not what you think it is; it is what is embedded in the mind of your user… We weren’t just playing around with a product; we were messing with an institution. And the American people let us know right away that they owned the brand.”

 

While that example has nothing to do with the gaming industry, it is arguably the most famous "big business" blunder in recorded history.

 

The next example, however, is from the gaming industry. The Star Wars Galaxies "New Game Enhancements" (NGE). Yes, I was there from day-2 until the lights went out. No one cares that you you were a pre-pub-9 Jedi. I'm sorry if 2004 was the last time you were relevant, I'm still going to reference the NGE and you are going to just have to get over it - it was 10 years ago.

 

Quite frankly, the parallels between the NGE and all the changes made with KotFE are disturbing. I'm not referring to direct A=B comparison, but rather the similarities in the decision making process and utter lack of communication. Allow me to go one step further and clarify that this is NOT SWTOR'S NGE. I am using the NGE as an example of a major studio blunder.

 

I was under the impression that this event in the game development world was not forgotten; in fact this should be taught to all game programmers under the "things never to do category". In fact, SOE executives were even involved in a game developers "rant" session at the first annual MMOG rant panel in Austin Texas, in 2005 just two months prior to the NGE's release where exactly what they did was foreshadowed as a major "no no". MMO consultant Jessica Mulligan unleashed a torrent of common sense directed at everyone in participation:

“I am so frustrated after the last 20 years of making the same mistakes over and over and over,” Mulligan said, citing examples such as coding before designing, changing a game after launch, ignoring the community of players, launching before the game and team is ready, and shoddily established billing systems. “Don’t start coding before the design is fleshed out,” she said. “Before the ship sails out from the dock, you’ve got to know where you destination is.”

 

Linda Carlson, director of global community relations at Sony Online Entertainment, had this to say about the NGE in 2013:

“It was a stunning lesson in how not to do things,” said Linda Carlson. “It was too much change. It was brought in all at once. Even after the event there was an idea that it would blow over, but it didn’t. There was so much anger. You cannot hide from these events.”

 

The three quotes above basically boil down to one theme, do not make a lot of major changes all at once, or a brand altering change ever. Much of the current hate, probably wouldn't exist if all of the changes with 4.0 had been phased in over time. Look at all the changes made between 1.0 and 3.x.

 

The third recommendation I will make is to ensure you are asking the right questions when relying on your "metrics" to provide the answers. To this I mean:

 

• Of course your metrics will indicate that players spend most of their time doing class missions when you run a six month 12x experience point boost for class missions.
  
• Of course your metrics will indicate a smaller PvP population when you have all but ignored PvP for years on end. Three new full team PvP arenas since the game went live in December 2011. That is on average one new arena every 16 months.
  
• Of course your metrics will indicate that most players do not engage in Nightmade Mode Operations. NiMs were never intended for "general consumption".
  

 

Final (general) recommendation: Never push a major update/expansion without significant beta testing by actual players. A lot of the issues presented by KotFE would have been identified through comprehensive testing.

 

A few simple requests up front:

Please stop pandering to "new and returning" players. New and returning players have not been paying your bills for the last four years. Casual players are by definition transient. Understand that with your current business model these "casual" players will unsubscribe, wait a year and then come back and binge-watch; only to unsubscribe again. They will not stick around for the long haul. If they were going to stick around, they would have already done that. KotFE pales in comparison to the original eight stories - and those weren't enough to keep them here. Returning players prove this theory by their very status of "returning".

 

Please stop making companions that do not speak Basic. If you will not do this, give us the option to mute that companion.

 

Please stop overwriting our key bindings with your key bindings. If I have a key already bound, leave it alone. There should be no possibility for multiple actions to be bound to a single key-stroke. When we (players) do that you call it macroing and we are subject to punishment. When you do it, it magically becomes acceptable. Finding out that you assigned a "default key" to an interface tab while I am in combat is the wrong answer. I do not care if you put it in the patch notes, your assignment of key mapping post-release is poor form.

 

Things that I feel are positive features that have been added recently:

Legacy Datacrons: This is a major QoL improvement. That said there is still room to make it better. As it stands there are often a republic and imperial datacron of the same type on many planets; an example of this is the old Cunning (Orange) datacrons on Tatooine or the Strength (Red) datacrons on Nar Shaddaa. Acquiring either of the two will currently complete the "slot" on the progression tab. The progression tab should be laid out as follows: Universal (meaning either faction can get these), Republic Only and Imperial Only. All available datacrons should be tracked on the progression tab.

 

Companion and Contact Quick Travel: This, also is a great feature. It does, however, lose a lot of it's value once your companion/contacts arrive at Odessen. I only need one contact at Odessen to quick travel to Odessen, everything on Odessen is less than a 30 second trip.

 

H2 Quick Travel: Thank you! This is wonderful.

 

Strongholds: This is a good QoL feature.

 

Non-AC'd toons gear rewards for H2s below level 61:

 

Characters that opt to not select an AC do not receive gear-boxes at all for the completion of sub-61 H2s. The default for these rewards should be DPS gear, all characters, regardless of AC can be DPSers.

 

 

Planetary Level Sync issues:

 

The Darth Baras fight is scaled down to level 12. This fight is now a joke. I'm sure it is the same with Thanaton and any other chapter boss fights that occur on a standard planet. The level sync needs to be looked at in its entirety, quite frankly. I was level 65 before completing Chapter 1 of the Bounty Hunter story. This is clearly not working as intended. The JK chapter 3 boss fight is on Dromund Kass, but this is a Republic only version of DK, so I imagine it is still at level 50. Recommendation: I encourage you to go through the chapter finales and instance them in "pocket planets" if need be at the appropriate level.

 

 

Some negative feedback regarding companions:

 

Post-vanilla companions have no conversations and no explorable back-story. This leads to a lack of attachment to these companions. Further, granting all roles to each companion ensures that most will never be used beyond "mandatory fun".

 

Quite frankly, there are way too many companions and contacts available. If a player is 100% complete with pre-Chapter X they have 23 available companions to choose from - assuming they have not recalled their old crew. This becomes an issue in the crew skills window, trying to locate suitable companions (read: highest influence) to run crew skills.

 

Recommendation: Implement a "sort-by" feature in the crew skills window. Options could be: Influence, Alphabetic, etc etc; I'll let you figure out the details. But, sort-by Influence is an absolute must-have.

 

You introduced us to many new companions through the Star Fortress Resistance Fighters quest arc. None of these provide us with any attachment. A far better way would have been to draw from a pool of previous companions in a way that makes sense to the planet we find them on. For example, it would have made far more sense to find Vector as our contact on Alderaan, rather than some random Ithorian Jedi ....

 

Some previous companions make no sense as members of the resistance, such as Kaylio, Skadge and the like. But Lord Scourge, Corso Riggs, Aric Jorgan, Zenith and Doc would have worked well as resistance members. Ideally, you should have chosen one companion from each story and assigned them as a contact alert for the SF prequests.

 

That brings me to another point. Agents get two story companions back almost immediately, Troopers get two companions back almost immediately, Inquisitors get two companions back almost immediately, Warriors get one companion back almost immediately, Consulars get one companion back almost immediately. Knights get a companion back almost immediately. Bounty Hunters and Smugglers get zero companions back up to this point. You have given back nine story companions and there are eight stories, yet there is a disparity on which stories get a companion back.

 

This is off-putting. Torian or Akavii would very likely be members of the resistance and could be easily added via a SF mission.

 

EDIT: Another companion related issue that I personally have, and opinions vary. I dislike that we must have an AC but our companions do not have such a requirement. I'm all for getting to choose which role every companion fills; but I think it should lock in. I do not think a companion should serve as both tank and healer with a simple button click as the only "gate".

 

An honestly how immersion breaking is that anyway? Lana Beniko can go from Immortal Juggernaut to Corruption Sorcerer in the click of a button?

 

As an aside, and this is an edit a week or so after the OP. I have gone through KotFE on one of each archtype (Aim, STR, Cun, Will) .... because I am a glutton for punishment. Nevertheless, what I have taken to is simply leveling my alts via H2s. I see no reason whatsoever to grind influence beyond one toon. This is a one and done story. Even if you go full lightside once and full darkside once .... it is the exact same story and outcome. I know at this point someone will chime in with "it isn't finished". To which I respond it is 9/16ths finished and to this point there is quite literally no difference between 100% light and 100% dark.

 

 

 

 

"Group" Content:

H2s:

While I certainly appreciate your effort to bring relevance back to optional "leveling content", quite frankly they are too easy. To prove my point I took a Mercenary to The Lanar Question and completed the H2 solo (this was originally an H4) using Mako as a healer and only using Rapid Shots to kill everything to include the Bonus Boss. I did this on a European server where I do not have hardly any Legacy perks and have low Presence and sub-par gear.

 

Recommendation: Retune H2s to actually be challenging (but doable) as a solo player. While you are at it, restore H4s (and their difficulty) and double the reward of the H2 scale for them.

 

 

The new Group Finder Tactical Flashpoints are frustrating to say the least.

The vast majority of these were designed with the "trinity" in mind. Placing kolto clickies in boss fights does not make up for player ignorance.

 

There is also the entire matter of "story" when it comes to these Flashpoints. Are there no "spoiler police" on the staff? How does it make sense to allow any imperial character under level 47 to access Battle of Ilum or False Emperor? Almost every Flashpoint below Ilum is issued by Darth Malgus. So, you have created a system whereby a "new" player can manually grab Athiss from Darth Malgus, do that FP, then jump into GF and kill Malgus in False Emporer, then go back and grab hammer Station, Mandalorian Raiders or any assortment of Malgus issued Flashpoints at fleet. You are spoiling your own stories. The betrayal of Malgus was a huge story event.

 

Recommendation: Level gate GF Flashpoints again. Allow for level 65s to participate in all of them, but if you are level 20 you would be limited to Flashpoints appropriate for your stage in the story.

 

 

Guild System:

 

Why don't we have guild mail? Why can't guild officers manage the bank? Guild officers can move flagships and invade planets. If officers could manage more of the guild's functions there would be no need for the 30 day guild leader log-in rule. As it stands right now, through the guild management window I can apply all rights to officers that I have available as the GL. But there are too many "behind the scenes" rights that I cannot delegate.

 

 

GSF:

 

Flight stick support. Seriously. SWG JTL had flight stick support in 2004. Here it is basically 2016 and SWTOR doesn't offer flightstick support for their twitch based flight simulator? I'm sure someone will say that not all players have a flightstick. Ok, but not all players have a Razer Naga, Nostromo, G-13, G-15, Steel Series Merc, or any assortment of user friendly gaming mice, keyboards and game pads - yet this game supports them all.

Recommendation: Implement flightstick support for GSF.

 

 

Broken Promises:

 

• Never again 14 month span with no new operations. The release of Chapter X will mark 14 months, again.
  
• Fix Open World PvP on Ilum. The Gree event ensured that this will never happen.
  
• Monthly content pushes in KotFE. Unless your definition of "a month" is closer to 120 days, you clearly missed this mark.
  
• Then again, maybe Bioware's calendar month is 120 days, in which case it has only been about 3 Bioware months since the last operations were released.
  

 

 

NiM Loot:

 

Look, if you do not want to continue supporting NiMs, then just say that and then remove them.

The original NiM Ops dropped Rakata gear guaranteed, when Rakata was BiS. Not only did it drop, twice as much dropped. Yes, Rakata was also a guaranteed drop in HM Ops. But with NiM you got twice as much. The idea that NiM Ops would only have a "chance" of dropping BiS gear is downright moronic. 224 gear should rain from the heavens in NiM Operations.

 

It is not our (the players) fault that there are no new Operations. It is not our fault that we know the mechanics for all current Operations.

 

These things are YOUR fault for once again breaking a promise that you made. YOU promised that we would never again see a 14 month period with no new Operations (the space between DF/DP and Rav/ToS). Yet here we are again quickly approaching 14 months between Rav/ToS and new operations.

 

We completely understand that you don't want people to "gear up and be done" but this is a time where "alt-farming" comes into play.

 

Right now, a lot of loyal customers are on the verge of being "just done" because of a litany of poor decisions in Austin. For me personally, the announcement surrounding NiM loot was the proverbial camel straw that forced me to break my recurring subscription which has been in place since December 2011.

 

 

The good: the story aspect in terms of quality has improved. Priority transport to heroic areas. Heroics replacing daily zones. Crafting is in a better place. Companions are in a better place. The interfece is in a better place, and the ability to save your key binds is great. There finally is a rewards program in place. There is a pvp map in the works finally.

 

The bad: the games difficulty is far too low. The reverse side of companions being able to still play the game for the player, and the lack of real substance to companions makes them cardboard cut outs instead of impactful pieces of your characters puzzle. The flashpoint system is not working as intended in that the level included is far too large. The rewards program yields rewards that seem too far spaced out and I hope that they aren't passed off as anything but free extras instead of actual content.

 

The ugly: the philosophical change to gearing I.e 224 gear and nightmare modes. The bugs that aren't being addressed until months down the road. Broken events. The directionless feeling for end game. the lack of development on new end game operations and flashpoints. The lack of a road map for the coming year. Negative articles like the game informed review regarding the expansion.

 

 

Bugs:

I need the community's input for bug entries. Reply with your bug and I will add it to the OP.

 

I rarely experience any bugs to be honest. But one that really sticks out to me is that for a YEAR now, my Agents hold invisible guns for no reason. Their gun is clearly rendered on their backs and they are not in combat.

 

Back-to-back broken events is a major issue.

 

So for additional long-standing bugs I will rely on the input of other players and add them to this post as they detail them below.

 

Mission indicators bug:

 

The mission indicators pointing you to the wrong place on maps and taxis and the number of friends online being wrong seems to have been a problem for as long as I've been playing the game, 2 years or so.

 

 

Warrior/Knight Jump Bug:

 

Not sure if anyone has said this, but the Knights/Warriors leap has been bugged for what seems over two years (i.e. you leap at your target only to either come up 10m short or fall through the environment like huttball walkways). the fact that this bug has been in the game this long tells me all i need to no about their competency. i would classify this as a game breaking bug because it could mean the matter of life or death not only for the knights/warriors, but for the people they are targeting. I, for one, have been saved on countless occasions thanks to this bug.

 

 

Player Healers:

While not necessarily a bug, player healers are at a distinct disadvantage in KotFE. for much of the intro to KotFE player healers are expected to DPS their way to the end, most often without a companion.

 

 

Just not equitable:

 

Hutta has 4x H2s. Korriban has 2x H2s. Ord Mantel Has 3x H2s and Tython has 1x H2. at a minimum I should be able to take my Inquisitor to do the H2s on Hutta, but I cannot. This holds true across the board. Only those who start in starter planets can participate in that planets H2s. This was never the case prior to 4.0. I know more H2s will not be added so the solution is make all faction H2s available to every member of that faction.

 

 

Bugs and other stuff we want fixed/added:

 

Original found here.

An extensive web poll recently concluded which asked the community to grade how important specific bug fixes and feature additions were to them. Each item was rated from 1 to 5: a score of 5 represents an absolute need, while a score of 1 represents non importance. Here are the results from the more than 1,100 responses, ranked top to bottom from highest priority to lowest prority.

 

TOP 10

1) 4.34 / 4.59 : Fix ability delay / abilities not firing off when pressed

2) 4.20 : On PvP servers, PvP bugs (que crashing you to char select, won matches not counting towards daily quests etc)

3) 4.16 : More rewarding endgame crafting

4) 4.11 / 4.14 : Flashpoint / Raid bugs (loot bugs, boss bugs etc)

5) 4.02 : Overall PvP bugs (que crashing you to char select, won matches not counting towards daily quests etc)

6) 4.00 : Customizable UI

7) 3.93 : Fix quest bugs (quests not updating etc)

8) 3.75 : More customization of armor/weapon graphics in game

9) 3.63 : More Warzones

10t) 3.53 : Adding a "two target system" (can heal a target and attack that targets target if using an offensive ability)

10t) 3.53 : Fix Lag & FPS

10t) 3.53 : More (rewarding and amount of) world PvP

 

THE REST

3.48 : More Raid content

3.45 : High resolution textures

3.41 : Less sharded/themepark feel in the game

3.32 : More Flashpoint content

3.30 : PvP class balance

3.20 : Combat log

3.16 : Mouseover healing

3.07 : Rated Warzones

3.03 : Biochem reusables/trinkets balance

2.92 : Dual speccing

2.83 : Macro use

2.79 : Fix faction inbalance

2.73 : More leveling content

2.63 : Addon use

2.49 : Server transfer

2.35 : Arena type of PvP

1.97 : Fix server queue times

1.64 : Switch faction

 

Huge thank you to Sorrowsongg for taking the initiative on this. Here is her original thread with all the raw results if interested: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=172162&page=21

 

Edited February 6, 2016 by ekwalizer

[LordFell]

An interesting read... some thoughts that came to my mind...

 

Regarding "new" Coke So, they come out with a new product, which becomes crazy controversial... get's a stupid amount of press... and then they revert to their old product, but with new "Classic" branding, and have generated an almost fanatical possessiveness about their product among their customers.

...yes, this was clearly a big mistake. Or... marketing genius unparalleled anytime since. Oh yeah, one of my college diplomas is for Marketing; we talked about this lots.

 

Star Wars Galaxies: New Game Experience I never did get into SWG, but I heard about NGE... because I don't live under a rock. I don't think there is as disturbing a parallel here as you are seeing. To my mind, KOTFE is really an attempt to meet player expectations. There is really nothing that KOTFE has brought to us that their metrics didn't tell them that we wanted... but, I think that there is a definite disconnect between what the metrics are telling them, and also on how things were implemented. I think there is a lot of truth to what you said about metrics for PvP being low, because there isn't a lot of support for it. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that The Old Republic is known for amazing story, because that's what SWTOR always brought to the table... and people still want that. I don't think people are really complaining about story so much...

Having said that, I do have a complaint about SWTOR story. In the glory days of SWTOR, there were 8 stories, one for each class. Post Level 50 (to 55, depending) there are only 2 stories; Imperial and Republic. Progress further to Shadow of Revan... and there's only ONE story; Imperial, Republic... it doesn't matter, you face the same foes and live the same story. Based on that sole truth, suddenly World of Warcraft is telling a better story that SWTOR is... and that's a harsh reality.

 

Heroic 2 quests Really, it's more a matter of tinkering with Level Sync, and Companion Performance. If I do an H2 with a Tanking character using a Healing Companion, I'm an unstoppable questing machine. Meanwhile, if I use my Scoundrel and a Tanking companion... I die fairly regularly. Tanking Companions are not performing well, and this needs a fix. Also, when I do a Heroic on Ord Mantel, Korriban, or Coruscant, I can usually knock it out in under 5 minutes. If I do a Heroic on Corellia or Voss... maybe 20 minutes? The reward is the same... but the effort and risk is not. This needs an overhaul as well.

 

Tactical Flashpoints This is something I find really frustrating. I'm sure this was a change designed to allow more people to get into group content... but I find that the opposite has happened; Tactical Flashpoints are frustrating to do, to a point where I just won't do them. As much as anything, I agree that the lack of the classic group Trinity is the problem. A different suggestion I saw, and liked, was to make Flashpoints for 2 players... and let players use Companions to fill the other 2 slots/roles.

 

Bugs, bugs, bugs, bugs.... SWTOR is sadly, the buggiest MMO I've played. There are some pretty basic MMO bugs that SWTOR seems to just... have. It's not even really acceptable, to be honest. For example... I've got a Vendor in my Stronghold, that ... TWO vendors, actually... that just don't work. That's CRAZY basic, and it's broken. Game's four years old, and you've got... broken vendors. It's pretty embarrassing.

 

....if I didn't mention it, it's because I don't really have anything to add, but I will say that I most likely agreed 90 to 99% verbatim.

[ekwalizer]

Star Wars Galaxies: New Game Experience I never did get into SWG, but I heard about NGE... because I don't live under a rock. I don't think there is as disturbing a parallel here as you are seeing. To my mind, KOTFE is really an attempt to meet player expectations.

 

I'm certainly not discounting or disqualifying your opinion on the matter; it is just easier to see them from my perspective. Experiencing both provides me with insight that you simply do not have. Ultimately I think it boils down to how metrics are interpreted based on the questions from which they pulled the data. SOE did not set out to torpedo their game with the NGE, they genuinely believed they were improving it ... based on their metrics. And in all fairness, once I acclimated myself to the NGE, I enjoyed it more than the Pre-NGE game. Of course there were aspects I missed from pre-NGE, but overall I enjoyed the game more in 2007-2011 than I enjoyed it in 2003-2006. But the damage had already been done, far too many players fled the game never to return.

 

Anecdotally, I can see an exodus from the game currently underway. School is out, a new movie is out and yet server density has not improved. If KotFE achieved its goal and rehooked current players, while also drawing in new and returning players there would be no need for a subscription gimmick lasting from now until August. A product in demand sells itself based on its merit. Any uptick the movie provides will be a flash in the pan.

 

There is really nothing that KOTFE has brought to us that their metrics didn't tell them that we wanted... but, I think that there is a definite disconnect between what the metrics are telling them, and also on how things were implemented. I think there is a lot of truth to what you said about metrics for PvP being low, because there isn't a lot of support for it. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that The Old Republic is known for amazing story, because that's what SWTOR always brought to the table... and people still want that. I don't think people are really complaining about story so much...

 

I fully agree, my concern is that they neglected everything for the sake of a new story, that frankly doesn't meet the standard set by any of the original eight stories. Ok, that is probably too harsh. KotFE is a better story than Consular and Trooper.

 

Having said that, I do have a complaint about SWTOR story. In the glory days of SWTOR, there were 8 stories, one for each class. Post Level 50 (to 55, depending) there are only 2 stories; Imperial and Republic. Progress further to Shadow of Revan... and there's only ONE story; Imperial, Republic... it doesn't matter, you face the same foes and live the same story. Based on that sole truth, suddenly World of Warcraft is telling a better story that SWTOR is... and that's a harsh reality.

 

This is inexcusably lazy from my point of view. SoR and KotFE might as well just be called Jedi Knight story expansions.

 

Your point raises a larger issue as well. With the streamlined leveling that came with 4.0 it takes drastically less time to witness all eight stories. The time-sink has been greatly reduced which will usher casuals away from the game that much sooner.

Edited December 25, 2015 by ekwalizer

[CrazyCT]

Got as far down as the bit about "$100 million profit", showing you clearly don't even know the difference between revenue and profit, and so I gave in. You might have made some interesting points later on, but such a bad start, I'm forced to assume the rest would be as full of errors.

 

Oh, and thank **** these forums are only electric, if they had to be printed, you'd have killed off the planet "discussing" the exact same bullplop that's on 500 posts before you. I guess joining in those discussions wouldn't have served your wonderful sense of entitlement.

 

Don't bother replying, I won't be back for this one

[Xo-Lara]

The above snide post was uncalled for.

 

I'd also like to point out, though, that casuals pay for subscriptions too, many being constant subs. So there is no reason to cut casual players out of consideration. There's room for everybody... however they choose to play the game.

 

On topic: I agree with many points the original poster made, not all of them but many.

 

I think more interns is a good idea, especially economics students who can work on regulating the economy. I think fewer changes all at once is also a good idea along with more communication. Though, I'll concede that part of the issue there is players just saying snide things and ripping ideas to shreds just for the sake of doing so.

 

Regarding companions, the sorting idea is a good idea though I suspect we'll be losing a lot of them before the story is through.

 

I like all the new travel features including the jump to alliance contacts one. With my lag it is faster to use the travel to contact than it is to walk the distance so I'd like to see those stay. I like that i have a choice between taking the scenic route if I want or getting where I am going now.

 

Regarding content difficulty. I like where it is now. I can take damage but it's not impossible. However, I would not be opposed to there being a higher difficulty setting for those that want it harder as long as it is optional.

 

I adore strongholds but floor hook need to be revisited. I really need different placements and new layouts for my Yavin stronghold.

 

As far as bugs, I can live with a lot of bugs and even the time it took to resolve the the exploit doesn't bother me in of itself. What bothered me was that in addition to deliberate choices that only lead to player frustration. It was a compound issue and it got to be too much. I really agree that the metrics can be interpreted multiple ways and that more care needs to taken with analyzing why the metrics may look a certain way over just noting that they are a certain way.

 

For instance, it would help to prevent people exploiting bugs for money if more time was taken to find out how and why people made money and to see if there would be another avenue that would serve them better. This could be worked in to the game in a way that wouldn't break it and then players would have their money. Players who have what they need mostly won't need to cheat to get it.

[Munithe]

Economics students? Regulate the economy, what?

[Xo-Lara]

Economies function under certain principles. The same applies even to virtual economies. There are people whose job it is to study and understand these principles. They have to learn those principles somewhere, therefore there are students who are study these things. I'm not sure which major specifically this will fall under but that is something that can be asked at a local university.

 

People who regulate real economies probably work on virtual economy simulators anyway, so why not let them work on game economies which are actually being used and affected by at least thousands of real people. The benefit to the game would be that they can probably come up with more solutions than just credit sinks for evening things out.

 

It stands to reason that if real life economies are tricky beasts to manage, virtual economies influenced by real people will also be tricky to manage. Therefore, use the same tools as you use on the real life version on the virtual version.

[Munithe]

I take it you don't know a lot about economics. I'll keep it brief, hiring economics interns would be detrimental to the game.

[Xo-Lara]

Disagree if you like but being snide actually doesn't make a point. Now, feel free to explain why that is the case if you actually have a point to make, or better yet, suggest a better option for fixing the economy,

[Munithe]

I'm not being snide. What makes you think the economy is broken? An economy is a beast of its own. It doesn't have 'regulators'. While there are some people in the world who think they control the economy (politicians), they have no control over it whatsoever, and all of their meddling in these affairs is meaningless in the end. The banks control economy to a certain degree. They dictate whether there will be an economic boom, or an economic recession and they also attempt to manage inflation. Beyond that, the only people who regulate economics are you and I, and everyone who spends money. Economics is not a manufactured institution, it is simply the study of trading.

 

Introducing interns to regulate the economy would be of no benefit. What would they do? Place restrictions on how many augments you're allowed to sell that week, in case you push prices down too far? Might as well remove the GTN completely and have NPC vendors for everything at a fixed price if you're going to do that. Hiring interns would be detrimental for the game because of the costs involved in hiring them. Positions need to be created, people need to be trained, offices need to be expanded. Computers, work stations and all of the rest of the costs associated with hiring and training someone... and for what? For no benefit whatsoever.

[Xo-Lara]

When inflation runs rampant, which can happen in the wake of too much money being dumped on the system, you can end up with a broken economy. Economies in games break all the time we've just gotten used to it. As to what an intern could do to help, that would be the point of inquiry. Also I assure you, the people watching and navigating financial trends are stressed out for a reason. Money systems do not simply maintain themselves in real world application. That is why things crash and people have to struggle to get it back up. Things do not magically fix themselves.

 

True, the people who deal with these things do not have magic wands to fix problems either, but there is a reason they have to study these things. Economics is its own discipline with it's own principles worth respecting. The principles are complex enough to where you don't simply learn what there is to know in a weekend and it would probably be helpful to turn to the people who are focusing on this sort of thing for help.

 

It's like needing surgery but not asking a doctor who specializes in this simply because the body can heal some things on it's own.

[Munithe]

Video game economies aren't the same as real life economies. In real life, we don't print currency endlessly like we do in video games. Also what do you mean by "When inflation runs rampant?" Inflation never runs rampant and "too much money being dumped on the system" is certainly not the cause of inflation (in real life). Inflation is a reflection of economic trends, and banks attempt to manage it by keeping it down to about 1-2%, though I'm not really sure if it's any of their business to do that. They just interfere because they can. Money systems maintain themselves. The only reason people interfere is so that those systems are maintained the way they want them.

 

Also, economics can be learned in a weekend. This is why I'm so surprised by the sheer number of people in the world who know absolutely nothing about such a simple subject, which is so easy to grasp and undertstand.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Munithe

[MickyJuulke]

I kindda liked the KotFE story. I actually play this game because of story but that is also the problem. I love fantasy books, but I'm not going to read one book 8 times in a row. And I'm certainly not enjoying the idea of running star fortress 48 times.

Bioware added a unique feature to this game with 8 class story and then abandoned the concept, for financial reasons, understandably. But without it there is not much to set it apart from other games.

[AlrikFassbauer]

A very visible design fault you can see everywhere is that they actually began with coding and designing the imperial side first - if you are sensitive enough, you can see it everywhere.

The REpublic side was made either on-the-fly during that process , or even after the imperial side was already finished.

You can very clarly see it by into which direction / faction the good ideas went. Simple examples : Jeesa, Lokin, and lots of in-game designs.

[ekwalizer]

Got as far down as the bit about "$100 million profit", showing you clearly don't even know the difference between revenue and profit, and so I gave in. You might have made some interesting points later on, but such a bad start, I'm forced to assume the rest would be as full of errors.

 

Oh, and thank **** these forums are only electric, if they had to be printed, you'd have killed off the planet "discussing" the exact same bullplop that's on 500 posts before you. I guess joining in those discussions wouldn't have served your wonderful sense of entitlement.

 

Don't bother replying, I won't be back for this one

 

I do know the difference between profit and revenue. Forgive me for using one wrong word in a post of this length. But, consider this, there was no major expansion (GSF is a mini-game, calling that an expansion is inappropriate) during the four quarters where they had that level of revenue. Do you really believe they exceeded $39M in operating expenses? I don't believe that, not for a moment. Also, the four quarters prior to that generated $177M in revenue. In the quarter prior to KotFE being released, subscriptions were up 33%. The main point was that the game was making money - not losing it. But you go right ahead and get stuck on a single, honest mistake in word choice.

 

I have been participating in nearly every other thread regarding these topics. But because of people like you, they have devolved into toxic cesspools that do not provide meaningful feedback. I have no sense of entitlement, I merely want to redirect the conversation into a format that will be more receptive to the studio. An onslaught of pure negativity will not go as far as well thought out discussion points for areas that can be improved.

 

We all know what assuming does, don't we?

Edited December 25, 2015 by ekwalizer

[jstankaroslo]

you are most spot on with group content, namely H2s. I really miss H4s

I don't get why they got downsized to H2s.

 

I seriously think that current dev team has wrong view on gameplay.

 

H4's were composed in a really nice way.

If you remember they usually had the toughest mob by the entrance to the area. So that the player got the clear message -this mob here states the difficulty of content you're accessing now. Be prepared.

After the first mob it usually got a bit easier, and then the H4's final boss was really tough.

 

This was all nicely put. And really difficult to do on level. while very much optional.

Now sadly even H2's can be mostly done by just our companions.

[jstankaroslo]

and IMO you're slighlty missing the point with your companions gripe.

The way I see it, all those SF companions are essentially just officers for your Alliance army, not companions aka friends. So I'm sort of ok with their anonymity.

As for which companions should we get (you mentioned Torian and Akaavi) I think this should be story driven -as is with Kaliyo and Chapter 10.

But the sorting by influence button is a great idea

[Eltohan]

Got as far down as the bit about "$100 million profit", showing you clearly don't even know the difference between revenue and profit, and so I gave in. You might have made some interesting points later on, but such a bad start, I'm forced to assume the rest would be as full of errors.

 

Oh, and thank **** these forums are only electric, if they had to be printed, you'd have killed off the planet "discussing" the exact same bullplop that's on 500 posts before you. I guess joining in those discussions wouldn't have served your wonderful sense of entitlement.

 

Don't bother replying, I won't be back for this one

 

Another great post from you, as always

 

I agree with 99% of what OP talked about. Frankly, I'm not sure there is any point into discussing the flaws (and merits) of this game anymore, it doesn't take a genius to see they're cutting on costs everywhere to squeeze any $$$ they can any more, the game is on life assistance mode at this point.

 

Only thing I could add, and I know 100% they won't fix it since it would be sooooo not cost efficient:

 

The Hero Engine was a terrible, terrible idea. If it weren't for this crap, Ilum (and PvP in general) would have been much more fun.

 

And since instead of having 15-25 fps during combat it could have been so much better with any other engine (probably wouldn't have been more costly or longer to develop an in house one either at that point!) they would have probably have a MUCH higher retention rate initially (and thus more subs and more ROI).

 

Sadly, no matter how powerful your CPU can be, pvp combat performance will never be as smooth as WoW's or heck even FF XIV. And that blows.

[SaibotLiu]

You can't honestly compare the NGE to the changes that have happened in SWTOR. The changes in SWTOR are par for the course as far MMO's go these days. They happen on an almost universal level to all MMO's now, including ones that came out well before KOTR did. It's the nature of our genre now. The NGE was completely different. I read your post and you seem to complain that Bioware ignores certain playstyles that are not overtly supported by the metrics, which is probably true. The NGE wasn't simply a matter of ignoring certain playstyles, it intentionally destroyed them. Not just slightly annoyed or changed the mechanics of, but as in snuffed out, eliminated, made them extinct.

 

Big difference there. As a long time SWG vet it annoys me when I see people use that as an example as what happens in their games. It doesn't, and you clearly have no idea.

[XiamaraSimi]

WhileI agree with the OP on some points, I disagree with the "REGULATE THE ECONOMY NAOW SO I CAN HAZ STUFZEZ I WANTZEZ CHEAPZEZ!!!!1111!!!!" posts from Xo-Lara (sorry, but that how they come off to me, no matter how you try to ponificate...) Edited December 26, 2015 by XiamaraSimi

[ekwalizer]

You can't honestly compare the NGE to the changes that have happened in SWTOR. The changes in SWTOR are par for the course as far MMO's go these days. They happen on an almost universal level to all MMO's now, including ones that came out well before KOTR did. It's the nature of our genre now. The NGE was completely different. I read your post and you seem to complain that Bioware ignores certain playstyles that are not overtly supported by the metrics, which is probably true. The NGE wasn't simply a matter of ignoring certain playstyles, it intentionally destroyed them. Not just slightly annoyed or changed the mechanics of, but as in snuffed out, eliminated, made them extinct.

 

Big difference there. As a long time SWG vet it annoys me when I see people use that as an example as what happens in their games. It doesn't, and you clearly have no idea.

 

I played SWG from Day-2 until the day the lights went out. I specifically pointed out that this was not meant as a direct A=B situation. My concern, as I clearly stated was with the decision making process (to radically alter a game post-launch and turn it into something that is was not).

[GeneralRhodes]

I stopped reading at 'hire interns'

 

That is class A stupidity right there. Yeah...Programming interns, with no experience, expected to work on a large scale online game

 

No one in their right mind, in any company anywhere does something like that

[ekwalizer]

I stopped reading at 'hire interns'

 

That is class A stupidity right there. Yeah...Programming interns, with no experience, expected to work on a large scale online game

 

No one in their right mind, in any company anywhere does something like that

 

Battle.net ... gosh I wonder who these "not in their right mind" guys are? https://blizzard.taleo.net/careersection/2/jobdetail.ftl?job=15000ZD&src=JB-1052

 

I really could stop right there. But, the googlebox is easy to use.

 

http://chj.tbe.taleo.net/chj01/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=GSNGAMES&cws=1&rid=647

 

https://careers.jobscore.com/jobs2/fullscreen/unscripted-development-intern/dwGcCYPq4r5Be7eMg-44q7?jpid=ad8fFMPq8r5BqMeMg-44q7&name=Indeed&sid=69

 

https://sony.taleo.net/careersection/2/jobdetail.ftl?job=216930&src=JB-10462

 

https://careers.deloitte.com/jobs/eng-US/details/j/S16ARLCI17JUNCO-T/serious-game-designer-summer-intern?src=JB-16801

[Ghisallo]

What you (Bioware) have done is taken a AAA MMORPG that was in the top 10 earning MMORPGs in 2014 with a revenue over $100,000,000 and dramatically altered it away from what it is supposed to be at its core. This is an MMORPG, it did not make over $100M in 2014 as a SPRPG with multiplayer options.

 

The question often however is not how much a game grosses, it is the net revenue and where that revenue compares in relation to ROI. If you read the earnings calls for the last two years EA was not singing the praises of this game even when it, according to the CFO, gained subs with SoR. Now whether the game's overhead is higher than most games of this size (possible because I am sure the issues with the engine make new development and QA harder than it should be) or because EA has an inflated expectation for the ROI because it is "Star Wars" I don't know, but being in the "top 10" doesn't seem to be enough.

 

The second at-large recommendation I will make is that you learn from the mistakes of others and try to not duplicate said mistakes - because you are currently doing exactly that. Understand, Bioware, that you are in fact fallible.

 

The next example, however, is from the gaming industry. The Star Wars Galaxies "New Game Enhancements" (NGE). Quite frankly, the parallels between the NGE and all the changes made with KotFE are disturbing. I'm not referring to direct A=B comparison, but rather the similarities in the decision making process and utter lack of communication. Allow me to go one step further and clarify that this is NOT SWTOR'S NGE. I am using the NGE as an example of a major studio blunder.

 

I was under the impression that this event in the game development world was not forgotten; in fact this should be taught to all game programmers under the "things never to do category". In fact, SOE executives were even involved in a game developers "rant" session at the first annual MMOG rant panel in Austin Texas, in 2005 just two months prior to the NGE's release where exactly what they did was foreshadowed as a major "no no". MMO consultant Jessica Mulligan unleashed a torrent of common sense directed at everyone in participation:

 

Because of the first issue I note, I think we have the errors you note here and the first essentially creates the next. Clearly they were under great pressure to turn things around? Heck twice, first at the Q3 2015 earnings call then at the one in October the CFO called out BW and basically demanded more growth in subscriptions on the coat tails of the release of Episode VII. Based on this BW made an expac that was all about trying to attract new and returning players. Their hope, it appears, was that in serializing the story and having subscriber rewards they would minimize the loss of existing players and thus have a net gain. This then created the next problem. They noted in one interview that they had an 18 month schedule/plan for KotFE. Once those things are started, the budget expenditures laid out etc it can be VERY difficult, if not impossible to readjust the main plan. Sure you can do tweeks (the companion power changes) but going from developing story content, to say PvE content is a lot more difficult, especially when you move your PvE development team to an entirely different project like they did here.

The third recommendation I will make is to ensure you are asking the right questions when relying on your "metrics" to provide the answers. To this I mean:

 

• Of course your metrics will indicate that players spend most of their time doing class missions when you run a six month 12x experience point boost for class missions.
  
• Of course your metrics will indicate a smaller PvP population when you have all but ignored PvP for years on end. Three new full team PvP arenas since the game went live in December 2011. That is on average one new arena every 16 months.
  
• Of course your metrics will indicate that most players do not engage in Nightmade Mode Operations. NiMs were never intended for "general consumption".
  

 

Here I think you make an error in assuming that their reporting of metrics was not without motive. I have come to the conclusion that they absolutely know all of the above and that they did what Politicians do with statistics all the time, used them a bit disingenuously to create a public justification for a decision already made. As proof I use the interview where they, uncharacteristically, went into great detail of their use of metrics. That interview was in March/April 2015. In that interview they refer to the metrics of determining what players do content wise as a very new metric. Clearly KotFE was in the planning stages LONG before this interview so it really seems that interview was all about trying to have a positive spin on the KotFE plan that did not involve saying " oh and yeah, EA said we need lots of new subs or we are in trouble so we are going to put a large portion of existing players on the back burner, sorry."

Final (general) recommendation: Never push a major update/expansion without significant beta testing by actual players. A lot of the issues presented by KotFE would have been identified through comprehensive testing.

 

I don't think they are ever really going to do that again. First they clearly want to avoid advanced critical evaluations of the game. Part of it is likely based on the insanity when some idiot decided to stalk a devs family irl over changes to Sents and Marauders, but regardless of the reason(s) they have become incredibly secretive and I simply don't see this changing anytime soon.

 

As for

A few simple requests up front:

Please stop pandering to "new and returning" players. New and returning players have not been paying your bills for the last four years. Casual players are by definition transient. Understand that with your current business model these "casual" players will unsubscribe, wait a year and then come back and binge-watch; only to unsubscribe again. They will not stick around for the long haul. If they were going to stick around, they would have already done that. KotFE pales in comparison to the original eight stories - and those weren't enough to keep them here. Returning players prove this theory by their very status of "returning".

 

And the rest I agree with all of it BUT...this above is not going to change so long as EA is unhappy with the status quo. They have been clearly told for the last two years that simply maintaining the current level of subscriptions is inadequate and are now under publically declared orders to get new subscriptions. As such they will pander to them in the hopes that they can finally have a " you guys did good" quarterly report vs a "we have hopes for the future", " you guys failed" or "you guys were... well you make a game we sell" quarterly report.

 

The bugs will never stop because their budget has been cut and staff their staff gutted. It sucks but what we see here appears to be the future.

[Ghisallo]

I stopped reading at 'hire interns'

 

That is class A stupidity right there. Yeah...Programming interns, with no experience, expected to work on a large scale online game

 

No one in their right mind, in any company anywhere does something like that

 

It actually works if you put them on the right jobs. Example... SoR you had how many different versions of say Assault on Tython? You have a dev make one, say the Hard mode for Sith side, if you plan right then the intern can almost copy/paste to make the Pub side version and the solo version etc. Now using them as programmers would be a bad idea but a lot of the game development process, after the programmers write code and the artists make those polygons look like an actual thing is simply an employee using a GUI to put those things into place.