Please keep the taint that is episode 7 away from the the old republic *spoiler*

[maxetius]

I think Kylo is more the squishy wizard type than a scrapper like Rey. Very good at magic like freezing blaster bolts and mind-reading, but years out of practice when it comes to hit anything but consoles with his glowing stick. Add to that the open wound, that stabbing dad likely wasn't as liberating and satifying as he had hoped, which messed with his concentration, and that he didn't what to kill Rey, but followed the good old dark-side tradition of 'Take your place at my side...', and his performance becomes plausible.

 

Why a squishy wizard would opt to go into a melee with scrappers instead of force-pushing them around a while, and why he thought doing the dark-side shtick before his opponents are properly subdued, is one of those mysteries.

 

His power level had nothing to do with the fight. The whole thing was light vs. dark, and light won. Which also instills doubt in his character as he was convinced the dark was stronger, sacrificed his father for it, yet here's an untrained noob defeating him toe to toe which shouldn't be happening.

 

That Rey was untrained yet somehow won was the whole point of the fight. Amazed how this goes right over everyone's head, but then people are analyzing these characters like they're video game characters and the force is purely space magic when it's actually much much more.

Edited January 1, 2016 by maxetius

[drakensang]

That would be a bit anvilicious, I think.

[Fyurii]

Yes, this was my biggest issue with the film and left me with a bad taste in my mouth, along with the film being SW 2.0 except lame... The villain was super lame as it was but at least give him his due as being a better master with the saber as it was then 2 people that have never used one before

 

 

Well, here's the first post after the one you quoted

 

Kylo Ren is no master. He created a shoddy lightsaber with exposed wires and never finished luke's training before he killed the other students. He's pretty raw himself. His lightsabers blade is fluctuating wildly and requires exhaust ports to even function. In Legends Luke, after 3 years of training, was able to take on Vader who was more powerful than he was than Anakin. In a few years after that he was capable of defeating Vader. Vader has over 40 years on Luke. There are some problems with the new movies but this isn't one of them. Kylo Ren was a glorified inquisitor at most in terms of knowledge and expertise.

 

To add to Rhyltran's post, as has been remembered by others pointing out the obvious, Ren's training in the Dark Side is not complete. Snoke literally says so when he tells Colonel "Hitler Youth" to get Ren so Snoke can complete his training.

 

Disney and JJ Abrams = fail

 

Sneaking suspicion that the combination of Disney and JJ Abrams already put a downer on any potential for enjoying the film you might have had with it being a new Star Wars film.

At least you won't have to worry about him directing the next movie though.

[Frenesi]

This all started with "full trained dark jedi" Kylo Ren, and people arguing that he is not properly trained yet.

 

So riddle me this. In russian version he is called "Magister of knights" of some order. While there is possibility that it's translation misfire, I still suspect that he is called something similar in original as well.

 

How the **** magister of knights manages to not obliterate some random black guy with no saber training?

Edited January 2, 2016 by Frenesi

[ConVallian]

This all started with "full trained dark jedi" Kylo Ren, and people arguing that he is not properly trained yet.

 

So riddle me this. In russian version he is called "Magister of knights" of some order. While there is possibility that it's translation misfire, I still suspect that he is called something similar in original as well.

 

How the **** magister of knights manages to not obliterate some random black guy with no saber training?

But Kylo did beat finn, pretty easily too...

[Zharik]

This all started with "full trained dark jedi" Kylo Ren, and people arguing that he is not properly trained yet.

 

So riddle me this. In russian version he is called "Magister of knights" of some order. While there is possibility that it's translation misfire, I still suspect that he is called something similar in original as well.

 

How the **** magister of knights manages to not obliterate some random black guy with no saber training?

 

Why do you feel the need to point out that he's a black guy??

 

And he *does* obliterate him, after the guy scores a lucky hit he went from taking his time (to enjoy it presumably) to "oh HELL no" open the can of whoopass.

 

Magistar of Knights could be a title or rank, which does NOT necessarily equate fighting ability. (If you think a four star general is better in a fight than a sergeant, then you are playing too many video games)

[Fyurii]

This all started with "full trained dark jedi" Kylo Ren, and people arguing that he is not properly trained yet.

 

He's not a fully trained Dark Jedi.

He's a partially trained Knight of Ren, an order of Dark Siders lead by Supreme Leader Snoke, who is also the leader of The First Order, the successor to the Galactic Empire.

Snoke made Ren the "Master" of the Knights of Ren, despite having not finished his training as either a Jedi or whatever training he's received whilst in service to Snoke.

 

So riddle me this. In russian version he is called "Magister of knights" of some order. While there is possibility that it's translation misfire, I still suspect that he is called something similar in original as well.

 

Master of the Knights of Ren, appointed by Supreme Leader Snoke.

Compared to all but

 

 

A lightsaber is a melee weapon. Finn obviously had melee weapon training during his training (basically his life before becoming an actively serving Stormtrooper, what with being raised from birth to serve the First Order), and therefore is capable of wielding a melee weapon.

He does it twice in the movie, and doesn't exactly show himself to be much more than basic in proficiency in close quarters fighting.

Fighting Ren, at no point does he have the upper hand, and only gets in a lucky hit against Ren who was basically toying with him, before being soundly dispatched.

 

Riddle me this, why raise Jon Boyega's skin colour at all????

(See, I can ask silly questions without thinking more than 5 seconds ahead when composing a question too!)

[Frenesi]

Why do you feel the need to point out that he's a black guy??

 

And he *does* obliterate him, after the guy scores a lucky hit he went from taking his time (to enjoy it presumably) to "oh HELL no" open the can of whoopass.

 

Magistar of Knights could be a title or rank, which does NOT necessarily equate fighting ability. (If you think a four star general is better in a fight than a sergeant, then you are playing too many video games)

 

Becouse he is black, he is guy, and I'm too lazy to remember his name. Same way I refer to 'white girl" protagonist. No racism

 

Kylo doesn't obliterate him. They actually duel for some time, too long for somebody with a training vs somebody without. And the fact that Kylo manages to get wounded in that fight is beyond pathetic.

 

And we aren't talking about real life here. Getting promoted to upper ranks in any kind of knight orders in SW (jedi, sith, imperial guard etc) does imply either superior fighting skill or extencive training (usually both). So how the **** Kylo, who is clearly terrible in melee fighting, ended up so high? Got "promoted" by Snoke? That doesn't help his already pathetic image

[Frenesi]

He's not a fully trained Dark Jedi.

He's a partially trained Knight of Ren, an order of Dark Siders lead by Supreme Leader Snoke, who is also the leader of The First Order, the successor to the Galactic Empire.

Snoke made Ren the "Master" of the Knights of Ren, despite having not finished his training as either a Jedi or whatever training he's received whilst in service to Snoke.

 

 

 

Master of the Knights of Ren, appointed by Supreme Leader Snoke.

Compared to all but

 

 

 

A lightsaber is a melee weapon. Finn obviously had melee weapon training during his training (basically his life before becoming an actively serving Stormtrooper, what with being raised from birth to serve the First Order), and therefore is capable of wielding a melee weapon.

He does it twice in the movie, and doesn't exactly show himself to be much more than basic in proficiency in close quarters fighting.

Fighting Ren, at no point does he have the upper hand, and only gets in a lucky hit against Ren who was basically toying with him, before being soundly dispatched.

 

Riddle me this, why raise Jon Boyega's skin colour at all????

(See, I can ask silly questions without thinking more than 5 seconds ahead when composing a question too!)

 

Ok, that somewhat clears it out. But you are wrong about one thing - lightsaber isn't regular melee weapon. It has completely ****ed up balance, due to blade being composed of light and all the weight concentrated in the hilt. That's exactly why wielding saber requires extra training, no matter how good with standart melee weapons you are (not to even mention how easy it is to kill yourself with it).

 

Yea, that's EU, but you can't get past some basic phisics.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Frenesi

[Zharik]

Becouse he is black, he is guy, and I'm too lazy to remember his name. Same way I refer to 'white girl" protagonist. No racism

 

Kylo doesn't obliterate him. They actually duel for some time, too long for somebody with a training vs somebody without. And the fact that Kylo manages to get wounded in that fight is beyond pathetic.

 

And we aren't talking about real life here. Getting promoted to upper ranks in any kind of knight orders in SW (jedi, sith, imperial guard etc) does imply either superior fighting skill or extencive training (usually both). So how the **** Kylo, who is clearly terrible in melee fighting, ended up so high? Got "promoted" by Snoke? That doesn't help his already pathetic image

 

Kylo takes him out as soon as he scores a hit, period. Up to that point he was toying with him... watch it again.

 

Real life melee ******es get a lot worse (possibly even terrible) when shot in the side my something that should be a mortal wound, period.

[Zharik]

Ok, that somewhat clears it out. But you are wrong about one thing - lightsaber isn't regular melee weapon. It has completely ****ed up balance, due to blade being composed of light and all the weight concentrated in the hilt. That's exactly why wielding saber requires extra training, no matter how good with standart melee weapons you are (not to even mention how easy it is to kill yourself with it).

 

Yea, that's EU, but you can't get past some basic phisics.

 

Pick up a flashlight (mag-lite, 3 or 4 D Cell batteries feels about right)... there.. now how hard is it to "hit" someone with the beam of light (use the narrowest beam the light will go to), easy right? Well YEAH because the blade is made of "light" (I actually think it is plasma contained in a very narrow cone-shaped force field) it is *easier* to "swing". Now the actors portraying this are actually swinging something with mass (they have blades that shed light, youtube it) that's why it looks like a more normal sword swing.

 

Please cite your (official) source that a lightsaber requires extra training because of weight balance issues...

[adormitul]

Pick up a flashlight (mag-lite, 3 or 4 D Cell batteries feels about right)... there.. now how hard is it to "hit" someone with the beam of light (use the narrowest beam the light will go to), easy right? Well YEAH because the blade is made of "light" (I actually think it is plasma contained in a very narrow cone-shaped force field) it is *easier* to "swing". Now the actors portraying this are actually swinging something with mass (they have blades that shed light, youtube it) that's why it looks like a more normal sword swing.

 

Please cite your (official) source that a lightsaber requires extra training because of weight balance issues...

 

If I remember correctly in the first movies they used wood for the lighsaber meaning it was made from wood and was quite fragile their really tried not to use a lot of force in their attacks because it will break. Later they used metal so that will not be a problem but it made it heavier. I guess now you swing a plasma weapon that has little weight so why would that be hard to do and need to learn how to. If you know how to use heavier weapons this is even easier.

[drakensang]

Depending on the width of the contained plasma beam it could have a bit of air resistance. If the beams are as thick as they seem this could be considerable with the high speed swings a la Yoda. Edited January 3, 2016 by drakensang

[Aeristash]

Pick up a flashlight (mag-lite, 3 or 4 D Cell batteries feels about right)... there.. now how hard is it to "hit" someone with the beam of light (use the narrowest beam the light will go to), easy right? Well YEAH because the blade is made of "light" (I actually think it is plasma contained in a very narrow cone-shaped force field) it is *easier* to "swing". Now the actors portraying this are actually swinging something with mass (they have blades that shed light, youtube it) that's why it looks like a more normal sword swing.

 

Please cite your (official) source that a lightsaber requires extra training because of weight balance issues...

 

Source

 

There ya go, straight from the official star wars website.

[Fyurii]

Source

 

There ya go, straight from the official star wars website.

 

Use this up-to-date source instead of archived material from 2014.

The differences alone make your "source" no longer valid.

[Aeristash]

Use this up-to-date source instead of archived material from 2014.

The differences alone make your "source" no longer valid.

 

They updated the art on the page and slapped on a disney logo. And still, nothing stated negates or contradicts what was stated before. How does that make it invalid?

[Zharik]

They updated the art on the page and slapped on a disney logo. And still, nothing stated negates or contradicts what was stated before. How does that make it invalid?

 

Your source:

 

The lightsaber is the weapon of a Jedi, an elegant weapon of a more civilized age. In comparison, blasters are crude, inaccurate and loud affairs. To carry a lightsaber is an example of incredible skill and confidence, dexterity and attunement to the Force. In the hands of a Jedi, a lightsaber is almost unstoppable. It can be used to cut through blast doors or enemies alike. Using the Force, a Jedi can predict and deflect incoming blaster bolts, and reflect them back at the firer.

 

Although use of the lightsaber is the mark of a Jedi -- the only ones capable of handling the difficult weapon -- it is also used by their sworn enemies, the Sith.

 

 

The current page:

 

The lightsaber is the weapon of a Jedi, an elegant weapon of a more civilized age. It can be used to cut through blast doors or enemies alike. Using the Force, a Jedi can predict and deflect incoming blaster bolts, and reflect them.

 

 

Oh and for the record, I was hoping for a canonical source (line from a movie, book TV show, etc).

[Aeristash]

Your source:

 

The lightsaber is the weapon of a Jedi, an elegant weapon of a more civilized age. In comparison, blasters are crude, inaccurate and loud affairs. To carry a lightsaber is an example of incredible skill and confidence, dexterity and attunement to the Force. In the hands of a Jedi, a lightsaber is almost unstoppable. It can be used to cut through blast doors or enemies alike. Using the Force, a Jedi can predict and deflect incoming blaster bolts, and reflect them back at the firer.

 

Although use of the lightsaber is the mark of a Jedi -- the only ones capable of handling the difficult weapon -- it is also used by their sworn enemies, the Sith.

 

 

The current page:

 

The lightsaber is the weapon of a Jedi, an elegant weapon of a more civilized age. It can be used to cut through blast doors or enemies alike. Using the Force, a Jedi can predict and deflect incoming blaster bolts, and reflect them.

 

 

Oh and for the record, I was hoping for a canonical source (line from a movie, book TV show, etc).

 

How much more canonical can you get than the official website maintained by the intellectual properties owners? And like I said, nothing there negates nor contradicts what was stated before. Oh and when we look at the crystal, it reinforces that point. One needs the force to feel the blade and use the weapon for combat.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Aeristash

[Fyurii]

How much more canonical can you get than the official website maintained by the intellectual properties owners? And like I said, nothing there negates nor contradicts what was stated before. Oh and when we look at the crystal, it reinforces that point. One needs the force to feel the blade and use the weapon for combat.

 

You stated that your "source" was straight from the official Star Wars website, which is only half right at best.

Your "source" was what the official Star Wars website used to say, compared to what it says now, which shows that you went to all the extra trouble of using outdated information as your source. On purpose.

It also does negate your original issue of the "weight issue" preventing Finn using a lightsaber.

 

Oh, and here's the copy/pasted text of the link you used above too. Actually read it.

 

Kyber Crystal (Lightsaber Crystal)

 

At the heart of every Jedi lightsaber is a kyber crystal found on several planets, most notably the icebound caves of Ilum. This crystal is attuned to the Force, and connected to a Jedi Knight on a deeply personal level. In this way, a lightsaber is an extension of a Jedi's Force awareness. Because Jedi let the Force guide their selection of the crystal, the vibration that the crystal creates in the lightsaber blade helps Jedi center themselves and find balance in the Force. In this way, a Jedi can center his or her attention beyond the distractions of combat. A lightsaber crystal is colorless until first attuned and connected to a Jedi -- at which times it glows either blue or green, or in some rare instances, another shade. From that point on, it retains that hue.

 

Nothing in there states, or implies that only a Force Sensitive can use a lightsaber, or states that you

Especially when such a statement would contradict many instances outside of TFA where non-Jedi/non-Sith/non-Force Sensitives use a lightsaber.

The two most famous examples prior to TFA being Han Solo and General Greivous.

[Aeristash]

You stated that your "source" was straight from the official Star Wars website, which is only half right at best.

Your "source" was what the official Star Wars website used to say, compared to what it says now, which shows that you went to all the extra trouble of using outdated information as your source. On purpose.

It also does negate your original issue of the "weight issue" preventing Finn using a lightsaber.

 

Oh, and here's the copy/pasted text of the link you used above too. Actually read it.

 

Kyber Crystal (Lightsaber Crystal)

 

At the heart of every Jedi lightsaber is a kyber crystal found on several planets, most notably the icebound caves of Ilum. This crystal is attuned to the Force, and connected to a Jedi Knight on a deeply personal level. In this way, a lightsaber is an extension of a Jedi's Force awareness. Because Jedi let the Force guide their selection of the crystal, the vibration that the crystal creates in the lightsaber blade helps Jedi center themselves and find balance in the Force. In this way, a Jedi can center his or her attention beyond the distractions of combat. A lightsaber crystal is colorless until first attuned and connected to a Jedi -- at which times it glows either blue or green, or in some rare instances, another shade. From that point on, it retains that hue.

 

Nothing in there states, or implies that only a Force Sensitive can use a lightsaber, or states that you

Especially when such a statement would contradict many instances outside of TFA where non-Jedi/non-Sith/non-Force Sensitives use a lightsaber.

The two most famous examples prior to TFA being Han Solo and General Greivous.

 

I provided what was requested, an official citation stating lightsabers required force sensitive training. Only afterwards did you warp it into a legends or current semantics debate. And even so, the current page shows that it is a weapon of the Jedi & Sith and requires the force to attune to it. You seem to be taking the fact that they cut 'Although use of the lightsaber is the mark of a Jedi -- the only ones capable of handling the difficult weapon -- it is also used by their sworn enemies, the Sith.' as proof that anyone can use it in battle, rather than a reiteration that any force sensitive or force sensitive organization, such as the knights of ren, can use it. The red highlighted portion further enforces that the canon is still up for debate as to whether it is legend. The legend canon stated that the only way Jedi can control the blade in combat is by using the vibrations in the force to feel the blade so they didn't accidentally lop off an appendage while swinging it all over the place. Their current page states that the force vibrations still make up the weight of the blade. If force vibrations make up the weight of the blade, then only a force sensitive can 'feel' the blade. If only force sensitives can feel the blade, then it stands that it requires some form of training.

 

As for Han solo & grievous use of the lightsaber... lol. Han solo merely pointed the beam downwards and cut the tauntauns belly open, and general grievous just kept twirling the lightsabers with his cyborg arms while advancing on kenobi. If those rudimentary instances are your examples, then you seem to be arguing whether anyone other than a force sensitive is capable of igniting a lightsaber, rather than being able to use it with any sort of martial skill.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Aeristash

[Fyurii]

I provided what was requested, an official citation stating lightsabers required force sensitive training. Only afterwards did you warp it

 

I didn't warp anything.

You deliberately used an archived webpage from 2014, instead of the logical choice of linking directly to the current page.

 

As for Han solo & grievous use of the lightsaber... lol. Han solo merely pointed the beam downwards and cut the tauntauns belly open,

 

So a non-Force User can actually use a lightsaber?

Your argument was that they couldn't.

 

and general grievous just kept twirling the lightsabers with his cyborg arms while advancing on kenobi.

Your example for Greivous is one short section of their fight, and even then is only from the film.

 

You are cherry picking what you like to support your stance, and going as far as deliberately using outdated sources.

Your arguments are therefore invalid and cannot be taken seriously.

[Aeristash]

I didn't warp anything.

You deliberately used an archived webpage from 2014, instead of the logical choice of linking directly to the current page.

 

As for Han solo & grievous use of the lightsaber... lol. Han solo merely pointed the beam downwards and cut the tauntauns belly open,

 

So a non-Force User can actually use a lightsaber?

Your argument was that they couldn't.

 

No, it wasn't. I never had my own initial argument, I simply joined the one in progress that asked for proof that a lightsaber needed extra training to be adequately wielded for combat purposes. This was never about whether anyone could activate a lightsaber, it was about whether they could adequately wield it in battle due to the weight issue. Han solo is a horrific example of this. He just pointed the laser towards the already dead tauntauns belly and cut. That is in no way evidence at any level of prowess. It is a crude rudimentary display of tool adaption. I can whack a melon with a katana, but that doesn't prove I have any prowess in using it for its designated purpose.

 

 

Your example for Greivous is one short section of their fight, and even then is only from the film.

 

You are cherry picking what you like to support your stance, and going as far as deliberately using outdated sources.

Your arguments are therefore invalid and cannot be taken seriously.

 

Of course it was short, he kept getting those spinning arms cut off. But go on, I won't stop you from running away.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Aeristash

[ConVallian]

Anyone with melee training can use a lightsaber, however only force users can master the art of lightsaber combat, and even then the only thing that sets them apart from other swordsman is the force.

The lightsaber is a weapon it isnt a wand that only magicians can use.

On a side note i even heard people complain about Han using a lightsaber in the SW comic when his blaster was disabled, i mean they can argue he shouldnt have been able to use a lightsaber to cut open the tauntaun because he isnt a jedi and he used the sword? My main point is it's just a weapon

 

and un-related, anyone else think it was hypocritical of Ren calling Finn a traitor ? lol

[adormitul]

Anyone with melee training can use a lightsaber, however only force users can master the art of lightsaber combat, and even then the only thing that sets them apart from other swordsman is the force.

The lightsaber is a weapon it isnt a wand that only magicians can use.

On a side note i even heard people complain about Han using a lightsaber in the SW comic when his blaster was disabled, i mean they can argue he shouldnt have been able to use a lightsaber to cut open the tauntaun because he isnt a jedi and he used the sword? My main point is it's just a weapon

 

and un-related, anyone else think it was hypocritical of Ren calling Finn a traitor ? lol

 

Well you know what they say there is no bigger saint then a hypocrite.

[Zharik]

<snip for brevity>As for Han solo & grievous use of the lightsaber... lol. Han solo merely pointed the beam downwards and cut the tauntauns belly open, and general grievous just kept twirling the lightsabers with his cyborg arms while advancing on kenobi. If those rudimentary instances are your examples, then you seem to be arguing whether anyone other than a force sensitive is capable of igniting a lightsaber, rather than being able to use it with any sort of martial skill.

 

The person you have a problem with was a foot-soldier (AKA ground-pounder/grunt). These people get training with melee weapons! We see the fight where he squares off with someone he probably knew before who was using some 'electro stick' (I have no clue what it is canonically called). They used melee weapons against each other and Finn was actually losing probably because he wasn't specifically trained with a lightsaber but maybe something similar (but maybe, just MAYBE gets a little insight that he applies later against Kylo Ren) and then the fight gets interfered with. We never see Finn blocking blaster bolts (should require use of the force, never see Rey do it either btw as it probably needs some practice and/or instruction) or throwing it while controlling it with the Force, etc. because he only knows how to act while holding something sword-like, which a lightsaber is!

 

Oh and like it was pointed out before, Grevious (all completely CANON, btw) was known for hunting jedi and taking their light sabers as trophies. So... 'splain that, Lucy!