Icykill_ Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Bioware, what are you doing? Tanks can overperform some dps in PvP or do just as good, while redirecting loads of damage + being 2x harder to kill. (edit: what about take that "but your dps suck" and stick it up somewhere? no, my dps is not the problem, turns out not everyone makes FORUM THREADS ONLY FOR PERSONAL GAIN). Do you want PvP to be only tank + healer (sage mostly) groups with the eventual merc/commando for net or something? The current gameplay is the epitome of boredom, we play pvp because we want action, quick thinking, quick reaction, coordination... but atm the game is like hitting parse dummies that don't even need to move, therefore people with the most boredom-resilience + best parse player/class will win matches. Some very slow, repetitive and stalemated matches that can go for hours (hypergate, denova..). The most funny matches i ever had in pvp were 4v4's KILL OR BE KILLED, DpS only, hope more people agree to this. A possible solution is a nerf guard PvP protection, which won't affect your precious PvE so it must be done ASAP. Another option is to nerf sage's, specially healing spec, but the problem can return later in a similar way because guard is very strong. Currently an obnoxious 50% of all damage. Second you must improve how shielding/absorption works for PvP, while maybe changing defense overall, http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=857264 on this thread there is a solution which makes lots of sense (imho haha xD). Beause atm only dps geared tanks are worth anything in PvP. People can come and say "but the most skilled, most godlike and pro ubber players with perfect dps kill those healers and win matches easy on my server, for i am one of them". Well, confreakingrats, the point in here is, sage healers (when properly guarded) can faceroll the keyboard while healing awesome numbers, i.e. they don't require the ammount of skill needed for a select group of dps to kill them, and it's not a small diference: That is the definition of unbalanced gameplay. For ranked solo, btw, ppl don't want to be queued with the non-sage healer*, which brings another common sense that anyone with the brains/experience knows (if they are not biased...), and that has enough threads to talk for. *Just check ranked season's average scores; conclusion - last balance patch was decent but we need more changes ASAP. Their only getting those numbers if spec'd in mostly dps gear... So your argument is invalid... A DPS Jugg will still do more damage than a tank Jugg, but will be harder to kill than a DPS Jugg and a pure tank Jugg will be harder to kill with much less DPS... It all comes down to what you prefer A. Play a traditional tank and do tank damage only (not very much) B. Play a tank in DPS gear and do more damage at the loss of defensive ability (damage still not as high as pure DPS spec. This is a hybrid build even though Bio don't want hybrids) C. Play a DPS and do great damage If you want to complain about something, then complain about Bio making it so hybrids are still able to be used in some classes, if in a round about way. Personally I don't have an issue with it. Being able to customise a little helps with the boredom of Bio not adding any new PVP features and the continued dumbing down of the game... Obviously the game is too hard... Nerf everything... Nerf EA... And make sure you always nerf Opeatives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James_Mcturney Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 (edited) The effectiveness of 4 tanks is severely diminished when you can only use 2 guards and it's difficult to swap those guards (1 has to be removed before they can guard). You also have no burst, so while you can do decent sustained damage through AoE (if they are melee heavy I guess), any healer/tank combo who can't keep up with you probably shouldn't be in ranked. Good to know that both of you never played rank, cause if you did, you would know that only similar role teams can get queued against each other. ^_^ i.e. only 1 tank+3 dps vs 1 tank +3 // or 4v4 dps // or 1 tank +1 healer +2 dps vs 1tank+1healer+2 dps.... Now for some reason, i will put this word here, i really don't know why, anyway, here it is: scrub'd. So i guess all experienced players from now on can ignore all those accusations and misinterpretations of my thread, walk in the shadows my friends. Their only getting those numbers if spec'd in mostly dps gear... So your argument is invalid... A DPS Jugg will still do more damage than a tank Jugg, but will be harder to kill than a DPS Jugg and a pure tank Jugg will be harder to kill with much less DPS... It all comes down to what you prefer A. Play a traditional tank and do tank damage only (not very much) B. Play a tank in DPS gear and do more damage at the loss of defensive ability (damage still not as high as pure DPS spec. This is a hybrid build even though Bio don't want hybrids) C. Play a DPS and do great damage If you want to complain about something, then complain about Bio making it so hybrids are still able to be used in some classes, if in a round about way. Personally I don't have an issue with it. Being able to customise a little helps with the boredom of Bio not adding any new PVP features and the continued dumbing down of the game... Obviously the game is too hard... Nerf everything... Nerf EA... And make sure you always nerf Opeatives LOL Problem is when the mix of tanking with ZERO TANK can 1- make sage healers too strong, beyond the overpower they already have 2- being much harder to kill and protecting everyone around them, while debuffing/ccing the enemy in a effective manner. 3- overperforming dps because of problems 1 and 2, which greatly increases their uptime in any given match (and by uptime i mean not having to respawn > run back into the fight), problem is obviously aggravated in ranked since they die last, but shouldn't be a problem since the team roles composition is equal. Instead we get many very slow-paced matches that end in sudden death phase, always favoring the sage healers obviously with their godbubble. In other words, it may reach a point where the least used role in pvp is DPS, which will greatly reduce the selection pool and make this game ungodly boring full of stalemate matches, if you like this kind of game, then go ahead and keep complaining and trolling this thread. Also, the ONLY nerf i'm suggesting to tanks is GUARD ABSORPTION REDUCTION. If people didn't notice, i'm even suggesting buffs to shielding/defense/absorption, which will greatly benefit tanks even if they don't use lots of tank gear. Edited December 15, 2015 by James_Mcturney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexsamma Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Good to know that both of you never played rank, cause if you did, you would know that only similar role teams can get queued against each other. ^_^ i.e. only 1 tank+3 dps vs 1 tank +3 // or 4v4 dps // or 1 tank +1 healer +2 dps vs 1tank+1healer+2 dps.... Now for some reason, i will put this word here, i really don't know why, anyway, here it is: scrub'd. So i guess all experienced players from now on can ignore all those accusations and misinterpretations of my thread, walk in the shadows my friends. There are two ranked modes, it sounds like you've never played the competitive one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenduKundalini Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Their only getting those numbers if spec'd in mostly dps gear... So your argument is invalid... A DPS Jugg will still do more damage than a tank Jugg, but will be harder to kill than a DPS Jugg and a pure tank Jugg will be harder to kill with much less DPS... It all comes down to what you prefer A. Play a traditional tank and do tank damage only (not very much) B. Play a tank in DPS gear and do more damage at the loss of defensive ability (damage still not as high as pure DPS spec. This is a hybrid build even though Bio don't want hybrids) C. Play a DPS and do great damage If you want to complain about something, then complain about Bio making it so hybrids are still able to be used in some classes, if in a round about way. Personally I don't have an issue with it. Being able to customise a little helps with the boredom of Bio not adding any new PVP features and the continued dumbing down of the game... Obviously the game is too hard... Nerf everything... Nerf EA... And make sure you always nerf Opeatives Hi there's also D which I do - dps in mostly tank gear (Vigilance Guardian/ Veng Jugg) I don't do top damage but I'm an all around PITA to the other team. Hey, post ratings? cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James_Mcturney Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 (edited) There are two ranked modes, it sounds like you've never played the competitive one. So it's like 4 tanks could beat the usual 1-1-2? lmao that would be awesome. Such balance, valve should hire everyone in here to patch dota2. Edit: also, maybe, just maybe, i only played granked with the usual 1-1-2 against the usual 1-1-2 and never noticed it could be different. Edited December 15, 2015 by James_Mcturney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Hi there's also D which I do - dps in mostly tank gear (Vigilance Guardian/ Veng Jugg) I don't do top damage but I'm an all around PITA to the other team. Hey, post ratings? cool! Please tell me you don't do that in arena? WZs I can understand, especially when there are more healers than are needed and they certainly don't need a tank... That is why a lot of us are spec'd with DPS gear instead of tank gear... Maybe try that instead of the way you are setup... You'll be even more of a pita as you'll be able to kill stuff or atleast put decent pressure on them... I have 2 sets of gear so I can switch at the start of the match, depending on team composition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James_Mcturney Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 Please tell me you don't do that in arena? WZs I can understand, especially when there are more healers than are needed and they certainly don't need a tank... That is why a lot of us are spec'd with DPS gear instead of tank gear... Maybe try that instead of the way you are setup... You'll be even more of a pita as you'll be able to kill stuff or atleast put decent pressure on them... I have 2 sets of gear so I can switch at the start of the match, depending on team composition Wait, what is this? Is this prejudice or something? if tanks can wear dps gear and overperfom, why can't dps wear tank gear and overperform? OH YES, RIGHT, dps classes are worst, specially because they can't combine with healers and become godly because of guard (which, again, is the only thing that should be nerfed while buffing tank gear/stats/ how it works). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Wait, what is this? Is this prejudice or something? if tanks can wear dps gear and overperfom, why can't dps wear tank gear and overperform? OH YES, RIGHT, dps classes are worst, specially because they can't combine with healers and become godly because of guard (which, again, is the only thing that should be nerfed while buffing tank gear/stats/ how it works). Wait, what? Do you even play ranked?... When ever you wear all gear not for your spec you lose any gear buffs... This is acceptable in WZ or even reg Arena... But you need every advantage in ranked unless you are so stonk you can face roll people naked... Of course if you really wanted to you could equip fortitude augments instead of overkill to give you extra health and you can still skank tank in DPS gear if you need to... I'm not sure why you would need to nerf guard for DPS, you may as well remove any ability for off healing or other support abilities that just about every class brings into the fold... When I suggested to the other person to try it the other way, it is because in my opinion it is better, no other reason... I'm also not saying they can't continue doing what they are doing and have fun doing it... I was saying they should just give it a go and see if they like it... Stop raging at everyone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexsamma Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 So it's like 4 tanks could beat the usual 1-1-2? lmao that would be awesome. Such balance, valve should hire everyone in here to patch dota2. Edit: also, maybe, just maybe, i only played granked with the usual 1-1-2 against the usual 1-1-2 and never noticed it could be different. I'm pointing out that in team ranked you can queue any comp and get paired against any comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James_Mcturney Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 Stop raging at everyone... Raging? Wow you guys must be very freaking calm and annoying then, because i'm very restrained if taking into consideration the ammount of offtopic posts, people not reading the main thread, ad hominem accusations, like the one in your own freaking post that i decided not to quote entirely because i simply don't care about this forums anymore. Hope = lost, swtor playerbase, you get the ****** game you deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganthen Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 i think juggs are over tuned for sure, ive felt that way for a long time. put a tank jugg in dps gear and you end up with an unstoppable killing force, that will literally take 3 or 4 minutes of 3-4 dps beating on him to kill him. as a matter of fact, I just had this happen in the last two WZ's I was just in. Juggs just running rampant tearing through everything, and being nigh unkillable. yesterday, had some WZ's where juggs ended up being the top dps. combine all of that with the amount of CC they have, and the multitude of CC breaks, it's just a little too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Raging? Wow you guys must be very freaking calm and annoying then, because i'm very restrained if taking into consideration the ammount of offtopic posts, people not reading the main thread, ad hominem accusations, like the one in your own freaking post that i decided not to quote entirely because i simply don't care about this forums anymore. Hope = lost, swtor playerbase, you get the ****** game you deserve. QQ much...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dethla-Hadyn Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Never before has the graffiti on the arena walls ever said, "jug tank dps is too strong"... I don't even... Malgus is turning over in his grave... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizoar Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Let me know when your tank in DPS gear starts doing 3k DPS and I'll care. Until then, I'm far surpassing the damage Jugg/Guardian tanks do when I run Vig/Veng. happens a lot of time.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Good to know that both of you never played rank, cause if you did, you would know that only similar role teams can get queued against each other. ^_^ i.e. only 1 tank+3 dps vs 1 tank +3 // or 4v4 dps // or 1 tank +1 healer +2 dps vs 1tank+1healer+2 dps.... Now for some reason, i will put this word here, i really don't know why, anyway, here it is: scrub'd. So i guess all experienced players from now on can ignore all those accusations and misinterpretations of my thread, walk in the shadows my friends. I assumed anyone talking about a predetermined 4 man comp would be talking about team ranked, not solo ranked where everything is made up and the points don't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 happens a lot of time.. I have never had a tank specced player do comparable damage to me in a DPS spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scinald Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 i think juggs are over tuned for sure, ive felt that way for a long time. put a tank jugg in dps gear and you end up with an unstoppable killing force, that will literally take 3 or 4 minutes of 3-4 dps beating on him to kill him. as a matter of fact, I just had this happen in the last two WZ's I was just in. Juggs just running rampant tearing through everything, and being nigh unkillable. yesterday, had some WZ's where juggs ended up being the top dps. combine all of that with the amount of CC they have, and the multitude of CC breaks, it's just a little too much. Those would be called bad DPS then. Seriously, if you have 3-4 DPS on an Immortal and they can't splat him in less than 15-20 seconds then they are not particularly proficient at their jobs (or he has all his CDs in which case wait for the next window and kill him in 15-20 seconds). There are so many scrubs out there at the moment in Regz that it makes Immortals look far better than they are. I can regularly jump into a group of 2-3 DPS and kill most or all of them. Then, once in a while, I'll jump into a group of the same size and they will slaughter me and I remember that there are actually some decent players out there who know their stuff. Also, as for tank DPS numbers in general, if your DPS are not doing 50% more damage over the course of the WZ than the tank they are doing something wrong. Basically, switching to Vengeance from Immortal usually results in that much of an overall DPS boost for me on average with significantly higher burst of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 There are so many scrubs out there at the moment in Regz that it makes Immortals look far better than they are. Faction inbalance ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterFeign Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Faction inbalance ? I think people just not knowing their class/bad rotations and bad gearing in general. I've been seeing it a lot lately. Also people hardly use interrupts any more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodrin Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) Are you looking for serious responses with this thread? If you want deaths more often, then functional defense and absorbtion stats won't help. If you think Sorc/Sage healers are just afk healing their lives away, then you've never played one. If you think anything is hard to kill, then you've never played a PT/VG. The ONLY reason healers (and the people they are healing) are hard to kill currently is because the people PvPing are garbage tier. Literally players in the hundreds for DPS and wondering why nothing will die. Shockingly, 500 DPS into a 70k health pool isn't killing anyone. Absolutely correct. I was playing my vanguard tank with a guild 4 man group this past Sunday. 4 straight matches I was 3rd on my team in damage and DPS. Only the two other DPS in my pre-made beat me for damage, and in two of those matches I was the only tank and our healer was the only healer. The fact that 4 other DPS spec players could not top my damage is the problem. No excuse for that happening. Faction inbalance ? Not really an issue in my opinion. There are plenty of bad players on both side, and as a player who primarily plays pub side on harbinger, I think it is safe to say that scrub factor is high on both factions. Edited December 16, 2015 by Vodrin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterFeign Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Like, on my own immortal jugg, there will be some games where I can tank 5 enemies and last a good long time, and then there will be other games where I get dispatched much more quickly against 2 people (with the same amount of CDs available). Though the jugg tank is quite over achieving right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenduKundalini Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Like, on my own immortal jugg, there will be some games where I can tank 5 enemies and last a good long time, and then there will be other games where I get dispatched much more quickly against 2 people (with the same amount of CDs available). Though the jugg tank is quite over achieving right now... Same on my tanky vig guardian and veng jugg. I'm barely playing the game lately, just lurking on the forums for the time being and Icykill, I could tell you I'd give it a try sometime but I freaking *hate* the single saber tank spec's rotations, they're boring as hell to me (just personal taste). Will try that on my tank assassin and shadow though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahzecklawd Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) Blah blah tanks 2 stronk blah blah. With the latest patch, tanks got a not-insignificant nerf. 4.0.3 : Jedi Guardian Defense Warding Power now additionally increases Guardian Slash’s critical chance by 20% and increases the damage dealt by Warding Strike by 30% (up from 15%). Beacon of Might now additionally increases the damage dealt by Blade Dance by 30%. #Nerf. Herp-Derp heal through DMG / Herp-Derp bubblehuehue through Acid . Guard 50% off ...makes healing even easier (#Feetplay). Can't wait for s7 ...filled with Hybrids and Sorc/Sage H. #GG P.S Thanks for your Feedback,we really appreciate it,but do not care. Edited December 17, 2015 by ahzecklawd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedusz Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) The most fun matches i ever had in pvp were 4v4's KILL OR BE KILLED, DpS only, hope more people agree to this. The most fun matches are regular wzs, all dps with maybe 1 healer for each team. It is there you have to quote you ''action, quick thinking, quick reaction, creativity, juking''. 4v4 arenas are almost always an exercise in frustration because there every single little imbalance shines. Also objectives> deathmatch when it comes to mmorpgs. Edited December 17, 2015 by Kaedusz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James_Mcturney Posted December 17, 2015 Author Share Posted December 17, 2015 Like, on my own immortal jugg, there will be some games where I can tank 5 enemies and last a good long time, and then there will be other games where I get dispatched much more quickly against 2 people (with the same amount of CDs available). Though the jugg tank is quite over achieving right now... Just coming to say cause i can't resist. I never said to nerf tank damage LMAO. I have no idea why people are arguing over this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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