Producer Letter Livestream Wrap-up

[Avinler]

Perfectly said . As i have pointed out some have made up their own definition of what is "requited" for a "mmo"

 

No, you are rejecting the definition of a word to fit your opinion. The Google definition of an MMO is:

 

A massively multiplayer online game (MMOG or MMO) is a video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously in the same instance (or world).

 

The story content of KotFE so far does not meet that definition. Almost the entirety of the KotFE story takes place in solo instances without any other players.

[chelbelle]

No, you are rejecting the definition of a word to fit your opinion. The Google definition of an MMO is:

 

 

 

The story content of KotFE so far does not meet that definition. Almost the entirety of the KotFE story takes place in solo instances without any other players.

 

Exactly. Single player content is not multiplayer. The two are mutually exclusive. Maybe they are wanting the game to be an ORPG now? If so, please be up front about it. Some of us actually like to do group content.

[Avinler]

really out of touch ...when they said on live stream the most they have seen requested is more story and companions [sarcasm]......yea they are really out of touch.[/sarcasm]

 

I've never seen a single shred of evidence to substantiate their claim and the next quarterly report from EA will show whether it's really true or not (hint, it won't be good).

[Avinler]

So, books have no content? movies? Story is content.

 

The difference is that you pay a one-time fee for books and movies. Story is not content that supports a subscription model, that's why Netflix has to offer thousands of movies to warrant a subscription half of SWTOR's, because no single story is worth $15 per month.

[Lunafox]

Id go on a HK level of annoying quest chain to get Marr for real...

 

So would I. That was pretty annoying that quest. Urgh.

 

 

 

Here's the thing. Most of the hardcore raiders/pvpers have been around since launch. Or at least for multiple years. People like us pay the bills at Bioware Austin. We don't unsub for months at a time and then resub when a new xpack comes out for a month. For the most part, we've stayed subbed this entire time. We buy cartel coins. Hell, I bet a lot of us even paid for the actual game way back when it still cost money.

 

With no new content for us on the horizon, most of us are leaving. And if we are leaving, it is not a good sign.

 

The devs need to stop pandering to people who, for the most part, are free to play the majority of the time. If they don't, this game won't be around much longer. At this rate, I'll be surprised to see a 5th anniversary next year. My guild is composed almost entirely of founders. After this announcement all of us are most likely moving to wow. And we aren't the only ones moving on.

 

The "hard core" players may be the minority, but we spend actual money on this game. And I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the money made from this game comes from the 10% of us that enjoy difficult content. We drive the community. We run the game's guilds. We drive the game's economy. We may be the minority, but if it wasn't for us there probably wouldn't still be a swtor. And I feel like the devs just still don't get it.

 

I have been loyal. I have had faith. I have been patient. But if after a year they still can't throw something our way, I think I am done.

 

If I am fed up. If I'm at my breaking point, you can bet your *** a hell of a lot of other people are too.

 

I'm a founder, and I've been here since before launch too. I'm a story player and I've been here solid without stop too. I too help pay the bills, by paying my sub, and buying packs and cartel market items. I've spent an obscene amount of money here. Your post suggests that people like me don't, but they do. I just wanted to clarify that. You're not the only ones who drive the economy and the game.

[Glower]

Be a subscriber continuously from January 11th through the launch of Chapter 16, and receive an entire bonus Chapter where you will play as HK-55!

 

 

Is it exclusive or just a temporary bonus?

Can not "continuously" subs receive it later?

[DarthDymond]

really out of touch ...when they said on live stream the most they have seen requested is more story and companions [sarcasm]......yea they are really out of touch.[/sarcasm]

I've never seen a single shred of evidence to substantiate their claim and the next quarterly report from EA will show whether it's really true or not (hint, it won't be good).

Well, if we're talking about EA's quarterlies:

 

When they announced KotFE, specifically emphasizing it as a story-focused expansion with nary a word about Ops or PVP, and later confirmed that there wouldn't be any of either in the expansion (after we had already gone more than 6 months without any new Ops and something like 14 months without a new WZ)... subscriptions climbed 33%.

Edited December 2, 2015 by DarthDymond

[ceciltaru]

While I can't remember exactly what I put on the feedback survey I'm pretty sure it wasn't related to HK-55. Will it be nice to get him back? Sure, but without an actual reason for it, like his memory core was actually uploaded somewhere so his personality could be saved, it seems like something shoe-horned in and a paradox for those of us who are lore-junkies.

 

The Subscriber rewards/incentives while interesting, did not give enough details for me to be super-hyped for it. I can look at FFXIV's Veteran Rewards Program and see several things I get just for subscribing for a set amount of days, ie. subscribe 90 days get this mount, this pet, and this outfit For use long time subscribers, us Founders, where is the Thank you for staying subscribed? I saw someone mention an increase to 1000 CC's per month, it might be a start.

 

To KeyboardNinja, I respect your opinion, but definitely do not agree with it. The story and how it is executed is a big reason alot of players are here, and not playing some other game. I for one consider myself casual because I do play mostly for the story. I like to run through flashpoints and operations for the story elements, but don't care one iota about progression, its not about challenges or stroking my ego.

 

That being said I am concerned with the lack of additional content.

1. What is the purpose of the alliance? Will we be able to do things like alliance missions putting the long list of companions to work? Can we get some interface tweaks for sorting companions, like by influence or alphabetically?

2. Where is a new Operation or two so that those who want that type of content can have something. Battle for Asylum OP for example? May a new flashpoint or two, such as an FP for the KotFE chapter one fight, minus Darth Marr

3. We really need some daily style content, not for grniding rep or whatever, but for cool things to do. When he's not glitched, i like the feeding Scritchy achievement thing. What about some daily content for fixing up the Gravestone? I'm not sure if Arcann's forces occupied Asylum, but how about a return there to fix things up? While doing heroics for the Alliance specialists is a clever way to recycle old content, why not some new quests on all of the old worlds, missions that deal with fighting back th Eternal Empire forces or doing something to help the local governments. Yes dealing with a huge space station over some of the planets was cool, but there has to be more here.

4. While grinding out the 20 PvP matches to get M1-4x on my Pub main, I could see why this part of the community has felt neglected. Seriously, they need a couple of new maps or match types. Give them an area to world PvP in with a bolster, thats only purpose is there for PvP and no events or other content.

5. Regarding KotFE, i have definitely seen where some choices mattered, but haven't played through all possible choices. You quickly hinted and alluded to some definite places where choices will matter in some of the upcoming chapters, so I am hoping these choices have a major impact and not minor in their visibility.

6. I would like to see the return of some individual class specific missions, at least two or 3 in each future expansion, spread throughout to give something unique for each class

7. This ties in with some of the above points, give me some places to really explore, not just the them park ride through an area. Give me something cool to do in areas that will make them feel more fleshed out. There were people, groups, and places introduced in the first nine chapters of KotFE, give me a reason to care.

 

I know ya'll are listening, thank you for that. thank you for continuing work on this great game, hope to see it around for many more years!

[Halinalle]

HK-55! I actually thought that he would be just another HK unit when I first met him during the escape but of course I was wrong. I don't think HK-51 would do what HK-55 did in later chapter for example.

 

Bonus chapter sounds cool and because it's HK-55 it should be fun too.

[tmwfte]

While I can't remember exactly what I put on the feedback survey I'm pretty sure it wasn't related to HK-55. Will it be nice to get him back? Sure, but without an actual reason for it, like his memory core was actually uploaded somewhere so his personality could be saved, it seems like something shoe-horned in and a paradox for those of us who are lore-junkies.

 

Especially considering

that specifically in-story, Lana stated that there was no back-up. That HK-55 refused to make one because he wanted his life to be more like an average mortal's.

 

 

I have my doubts the HK-55's return will actually be "in-story", but rather extraneous, much as it is currently when someone opts to get back their class companions instead of waiting for them to pop up through the chapters/alerts.

[vampirecookies]

We all knew that this game was going to down hill, come on when we saw the live stream we knew that this game was headed down a path of "story". Which is of course is a complete load of bull****, but again we all knew what was happening. Not once in their KOTOR stream did they mention operations or pvp improvements, in fact they took the lazy way out, and just leveled buffed everything. Story content doesn't keep subscribers, how do they expect to keep subscribers when you don't even have to be a sub to play story. Pvpers are leaving at how easy, and unbalanced pvp has become, the game is loosing all it's good players, that actually pay subscriptions. Pver's are leaving because old ops can only hold interest for so long, the content is extremely easy, and dumbed down. Clearly the devs have no idea what they are doing or how to even play the game. Instead of doing story they should've done cross server to actually save this game, but at this rate, RIP SWTOR. Unless they can pull some new pvp maps or operations, this game is done.

- Sto'at Omnomnomasaur <3

[_NovaBlast_]

No, you are rejecting the definition of a word to fit your opinion. The Google definition of an MMO is:

A massively multiplayer online game (MMOG or MMO) is a video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously in the same instance (or world).

 

The story content of KotFE so far does not meet that definition. Almost the entirety of the KotFE story takes place in solo instances without any other players.

 

umm buzzz wrong ... beaten by your own quote. lets analyze YOUR posted definition of a MMo

 

when you log in to a planet or the fleet ...

 

Do you see other people? Is there anyone logged into the server other than you......

 

Just because your not playing with them does not mean its "single player game" its still by definition a MMO

 

As i said earlier if you removed ALL PVP ALL ops and other group related instances out of swtor as it stands now It would still qualify as a MMO

 

becase as the Definition YOU posted all you need to have a mmo is

 

A massively multiplayer online game (MMOG or MMO) is a video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously in the same instance (or world).

 

With open worlds the fleet and even single player instances that multiple people can take part in simultaneously

 

ALL those requirements are met.

 

just for fun i looked up the

 

multiplayer games definition in google

 

A multiplayer video game is a video game in which more than one person can play in the same game environment at the same time. Video games are often single-player activities, pitting the player against preprogrammed challenges or AI-controlled opponents (which lack the flexibility of human thought).

 

this is from the oxford dictionary

 

Definition of multiplayer in English:

adjective

Denoting or relating to a video game designed for or involving several players.

 

Neither of those say that you must "play" with the other player for it to be considered a "multiplayer game"

 

the people that think the only definition of "content" is that you are playing "with other players" is factually wrong.

 

as I have just proven.

Edited December 2, 2015 by _NovaBlast_

[chelbelle]

So would I. That was pretty annoying that quest. Urgh.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a founder, and I've been here since before launch too. I'm a story player and I've been here solid without stop too. I too help pay the bills, by paying my sub, and buying packs and cartel market items. I've spent an obscene amount of money here. Your post suggests that people like me don't, but they do. I just wanted to clarify that. You're not the only ones who drive the economy and the game.

 

 

Okay, firstly while I did say that hardcore players are spending the most real money in the game, when I mentioned game economy I was referring to the in game economy. Crafting, gtn, etc. I can see how that was confusing, so just wanted to clarify.

 

Secondly, and I feel more importantly. Okay. You're a story player. Bioware is screwing you too. There are plenty of games that have far more story, for a better value. To cite a recent game, Fallout 4 has over 400 hours of story for $60.00.

 

Or take another Bioware game. Mass effect 3 had over 40 hours of game play at launch for around $50.00. However, in swtor Bioware is now expecting you to pay $150 for a whopping 13 hours of story content. 15 hours if I'm being very generous. Honestly, that's just sad. Whether or not you feel story is content, they are ripping people off if that's they only thing they produce in that time.

[DarthDymond]

Especially considering

that specifically in-story, Lana stated that there was no back-up. That HK-55 refused to make one because he wanted his life to be more like an average mortal's.

 

 

I have my doubts the HK-55's return will actually be "in-story", but rather extraneous, much as it is currently when someone opts to get back their class companions instead of waiting for them to pop up through the chapters/alerts.

Meh, backup or not, he's still an HK droid - they seem... resilient.

 

How many times has 47 been rebuilt at this point? Once in KotOR II, twice in TOR (False Emperor and ToS), and then in the Legends continuity he comes back over 3000 years later in SWG. And getting 51 in the first place was all about getting him rebuilt as well.

 

At this point, an HK droid getting rebuilt is getting as common as someone in a Star Wars movie having a bad feeling about something.

Edited December 2, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Jerba]

well i disagree rpg has nothing to do with "learning combat rotations " or things of that nature unless your one of those people that also enjoys "hard mode" & pvp type stuff.

True, optimizing rotations is not part of RPGs, my bad. I meant any kind of combat at all, be it turn-based or real-time. I don't consider the few mob groups in KotFE to be combat, they are just so easy and with good gear the fights don't last longer than a few seconds. Especially because there is no way to fail the fight.

[chelbelle]

umm buzzz wrong ... beaten by your own quote. lets analyze YOUR posted definition of a MMo

 

when you log in to a planet or the fleet ...

 

Do you see other people? Is there anyone logged into the server other than you......

 

Just because your not playing with them does not mean its "single player game" its still by definition a MMO

 

As i said earlier if you removed ALL PVP ALL ops and other group related instances out of swtor as it stands now It would still qualify as a MMO

 

becase as the Definition YOU posted all you need to have a mmo is

 

 

 

With open worlds the fleet and even single player instances that multiple people can take part in simultaneously

 

ALL those requirements are met.

 

just for fun i looked up the

 

multiplayer games definition in google

 

A multiplayer video game is a video game in which more than one person can play in the same game environment at the same time. Video games are often single-player activities, pitting the player against preprogrammed challenges or AI-controlled opponents (which lack the flexibility of human thought).

 

this is from the oxford dictionary

 

Definition of multiplayer in English:

adjective

Denoting or relating to a video game designed for or involving several players.

 

Neither of those say that you must "play" with the other player for it to be considered a "multiplayer game"

 

the people that think the only definition of "content" is that you are playing "with other players" is factually wrong.

 

as I have just proven.

 

I'm curious to hear your opinion on something. What exactly is the point of those other people being there if you aren't going to group with them? I mean, if there is no content to do with them, they may as well be NPCs right? I just don't understand how you can support a multiplayer game without multiplayer content.

[_NovaBlast_]

Okay, firstly while I did say that hardcore players are spending the most real money in the game, when I mentioned game economy I was referring to the in game economy. Crafting, gtn, etc. I can see how that was confusing, so just wanted to clarify.

 

Secondly, and I feel more importantly. Okay. You're a story player. Bioware is screwing you too. There are plenty of games that have far more story, for a better value. To cite a recent game, Fallout 4 has over 400 hours of story for $60.00.

 

Or take another Bioware game. Mass effect 3 had over 40 hours of game play at launch for around $50.00. However, in swtor Bioware is now expecting you to pay $150 for a whopping 13 hours of story content. 15 hours if I'm being very generous. Honestly, that's just sad. Whether or not you feel story is content, they are ripping people off if that's they only thing they produce in that time.

 

 

Please explain how bioware is screwing me on story. you seem to have very low number on how much replaablity there is and that story player aren't "longtime subscribers"

 

As for everything else you said about replayability..your estimations are completely wrong ..i have played entire weekends.. I have finished all planets multiple times.. etc ect.. I have even competed KOFE 2x so far...

 

not all "long term players " are Long term player becase of "group content" and if you believe that ....welll....that's part of the issue i guess.

 

SOO Question for you. If you think your estimation are correct about play time .....

 

please tell me how i got to Legacy level 50 ....without EVER doing a op or pvp ???

 

The only time i did a FP ( old stories pre 55 before solo versions ) was a few runs of drive yards on my one imperial LS BH becase I only want to do the class story due to not wanting to work with the sith as least as possible and the only reason even wanted to the bh was*** Mako.***

 

Personally If you added up the amount of hours i spent on this game and divide and sub payment ... its probably be l a better "value " than everything else you have used as an example.

Edited December 2, 2015 by _NovaBlast_

[Linyivee]

Story isn't content.

"Star Wars: The Old Republic" was built on a single-player roleplaying game. If roleplaying games did not rely upon story content, "Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic", "Jade Empire", "Neverwinter", "FallOut", "Oblivion", Skyrim", "Dragon Age" and "Elder Scrolls Online" are seriously flawed.

 

On the flip side of the argument, you cannot run an MMORPG solely on story content. "Knights of the Fallen Empire" should have brought a mixture of story, ops, flashpoints, pvp, etc... Instead of trying to balance everything, BioWare released a story, nerfed content, and removed valuable vendors.

 

Also, if you make people wait too long, between chapter releases, the people who solely play story content will become bored. I will not revisit the old stories. Leveling between one and fifty-five takes way too long.

 

Do you want to know the irony? As BioWare attempted to explain the subscription rewards, the community manager's facial expressions were priceless. BioWare knew this was a weak announcement. I heard anxiety behind the words '..but, there is more". BioWare attempted to fight off the negative feedback. As a matter of saying the statement over and over, the community manager was trying hard to convince himself.

 

...but, there is no more.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Linyivee

[AMightyKnight]

Here's the thing. Most of the hardcore raiders/pvpers have been around since launch. Or at least for multiple years. People like us pay the bills at Bioware Austin. We don't unsub for months at a time and then resub when a new xpack comes out for a month. For the most part, we've stayed subbed this entire time. We buy cartel coins. Hell, I bet a lot of us even paid for the actual game way back when it still cost money.

 

With no new content for us on the horizon, most of us are leaving. And if we are leaving, it is not a good sign.

 

The devs need to stop pandering to people who, for the most part, are free to play the majority of the time. If they don't, this game won't be around much longer. At this rate, I'll be surprised to see a 5th anniversary next year. My guild is composed almost entirely of founders. After this announcement all of us are most likely moving to wow. And we aren't the only ones moving on.

 

The "hard core" players may be the minority, but we spend actual money on this game. And I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the money made from this game comes from the 10% of us that enjoy difficult content. We drive the community. We run the game's guilds. We drive the game's economy. We may be the minority, but if it wasn't for us there probably wouldn't still be a swtor. And I feel like the devs just still don't get it.

 

I have been loyal. I have had faith. I have been patient. But if after a year they still can't throw something our way, I think I am done.

 

If I am fed up. If I'm at my breaking point, you can bet your *** a hell of a lot of other people are too.

 

+1

 

Was going to write a long rant about the... situation

But you said it better than i ever could. Thanks

[tmwfte]

True, optimizing rotations is not part of RPGs, my bad. I meant any kind of combat at all, be it turn-based or real-time. I don't consider the few mob groups in KotFE to be combat, they are just so easy and with good gear the fights don't last longer than a few seconds. Especially because there is no way to fail the fight.

 

You can have no combat whatsoever and still have a game be an RPG.

[chelbelle]

Please explain how bioware is screwing me on story. you seem to have very low number on how much replaablity there is and that story player aren't "longtime subscribers"

 

As for everything else you said about replayability..your estimations are completely wrong ..i have played entire weekends.. I have finished all planets multiple times.. etc ect.. I have even competed KOFE 2x so far...

 

not all "long term players " are Long term player becase of "group content" and if you believe that ....welll....that's part of the issue i guess.

 

SOO Question for you. If you think your estimation are correct about play time .....

 

please tell me how i got to Legacy level 50 ....without EVER doing a op or pvp ???

 

The only time i did a FP ( old stories pre 55 before solo versions ) was a few runs of drive yards on my one imperial LS BH becase I only want to do the class story due to wanting to work with the sith as least as possible and the only reason even wanted to the bh was*** Mako.***

 

Personally If you added up the amount of hours i spent on this game and divide and sub payment ... its probably be l a better "value " than everything else you have used as an example.

 

 

First of all, you don't want to go toe to toe on /played with me. Trust me.

 

Secondly, the argument that I am making is based on the hours of original content that they are offering. Many games have replay value. I am saying that they amount of original content in this expansion is not worth what they are charging for it. There are many games that offer far more story and content, for far less money. If all you are playing for is the story, then you are getting screwed.

 

Let's put it this way. If you do the math, they are charging a little over $11.50 an hour for this content (assuming you are playing story only). Would you pay $23.00 to see a movie? Would you pay $460 to play Mass Effect 3? Because that's what they are trying to do. I'm not even trying to argue that story isn't content. My point is that even if story is content, if that's the only content we see in this time span then we are being ripped off.

[_NovaBlast_]

True, optimizing rotations is not part of RPGs, my bad. I meant any kind of combat at all, be it turn-based or real-time. I don't consider the few mob groups in KotFE to be combat, they are just so easy and with good gear the fights don't last longer than a few seconds. Especially because there is no way to fail the fight.

 

that is also a matter of personal taste . I like story mode combat and "dying" breaks immersion for me .

 

I was part of early access of Kofe and I have to say that was the most fun i have had in along time playing with those companion was amazing i felt like i was this ultimate warrior and leader that no one could stop which in a sense is basically your reputation and why Lana risked everything to break you out.

[Jerba]

Just got done reading the whole thread and I was a little surprised to see all the posts asking about operations but I can understand them. PvE players can be patient but over time this adds up and players are losing patience. We are expecting a new operation in 2016 so it is only fair to get some kind of update on it. Especially since this is the Producer Letter (= the roadmap for the upcoming content), so we expect news on repeatable endgame group content, be it a new operation, a PvP map or something else.

 

I find it ironic how the producer had to go into a 5-minute explanation of why they are focusing on story. Clearly, they are aware that this is not self-evident to the players and think that they need to justify the focus on story by using terms like metrics, UX testing and consumer insights. In other games, every time devs justify a decision they give actual playstyle reasons - like "We moved away from garrisons because they felt boring" or "We reversed our decision on flying mounts because it killed exploration". Why can we not receive an explanation like this but are always told "because metrics"?

 

My understanding for why the devs think they need to focus on story, is that story is the thing that unites all the different playerbases in SWTOR - every player has a few areas of interest in addition to story. So when they do a survey on what content players want, story content will always be a popular answer. But I imagine the results will be different if they ask: "Would you still want new story content if every other content is no longer being developed?"

By focusing on the core interest, story, they are abandoning the various other areas like flashpoints, ops, PvP, GSF, GSH, RP etc. The veteran and hardcore players feel neglected because there is nothing in the roadmap for them. This leaves us with the casual players who only have time to play the story, and players joining SWTOR from other MMOs who have yet to experience all the endgame content.

 

In any case, I am interested in seeing what yellow posts we will get in the following days. I'm hoping that Musco will make good on his promise and actually respond to our concerns and have a real conversation. Extra pros when he directly responds to KBN's post which IMO is the best of this whole thread. But don't let us hanging, or post a response that was already prewritten last week. I want to see an actual conversation with a dozen yellow posts or more - please don't disappoint me again.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Jerba

[_NovaBlast_]

First of all, you don't want to go toe to toe on /played with me. Trust me.

 

Secondly, the argument that I am making is based on the hours of original content that they are offering. Many games have replay value. I am saying that they amount of original content in this expansion is not worth what they are charging for it. There are many games that offer far more story and content, for far less money. If all you are playing for is the story, then you are getting screwed.

 

Let's put it this way. If you do the math, they are charging a little over $11.50 an hour for this content (assuming you are playing story only). Would you pay $23.00 to see a movie? Would you pay $460 to play Mass Effect 3? Because that's what they are trying to do. I'm not even trying to argue that story isn't content. My point is that even if story is content, if that's the only content we see in this time span then we are being ripped off.

 

LOL I found your comment amusing ... not intimidating

 

LoL sorry you rolled a natural 1 on intimidation check

 

The rest is just your opinion and your welcome to it . It is not fact in any way shape or form.

 

I competently disagree with your evaluations...personally i feel i have gotten way more value than i have spent.

 

Ohh and you didn't answer my question ..i even made it yellow

Edited December 2, 2015 by _NovaBlast_

[chelbelle]

LOL i found your comment amusing ... not intimidating

 

LoL sorry you rolled a natural 1 on intimidation check

 

The rest is just your opinion and your welcome to it . It is not fact in any way shape or form.

 

I competently disagree with your evaluations...personally i feel i have gotten way more value than i have spent.

 

 

I mean, I'm citing actual hours of game play versus the amount that those games cost. That's not my opinion, that's fact. If you're okay with paying $11.50 / hour for game content that's fine. More power to you. I'm guessing that you're in the minority. In fact, I'm almost sure that you are based on what I've read on the forums and on reddit. Most people clearly expect more from swtor, and from Bioware. I am one of them. Only time will tell who is right.

Edited December 2, 2015 by chelbelle