Cretinus Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) When it comes to PvP, tank & heal have obviously been designed with arenas in mind. In an environment with no respawns and no objectives other than to kill the other team, it might make sense to first having to kill a bullwark of a tank and a healer in order to find the way to victory. This requires a highly coordinated play by the whole team, but it only has to be done once because there are no respawns. Besides, the only goal is to kill the other team anyway. But if you translate this to 8X8s, it makes no sense at all. In 8X8s you have respawns and the tank&heal bullwark will come back over and over again. This means that it will be there at all times, just surviving and keeping everybody (in both teams) from playing objectives. Basically, the reason why we have to fight forever against these walls and bullwarks in 8X8s instead of playing tactically for the objectives is that they are probably good to have in the arenas. Edited November 15, 2015 by Cretinus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougan Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I guess I don't understand the point you're trying to make. You use the same strategy to kill a guarded healer in 8s as in arena. There are advantages and disadvantages to tank stance and guard in PvP and while I admit, it's a pain to deal with sometimes, it's part of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cretinus Posted November 15, 2015 Author Share Posted November 15, 2015 I guess I don't understand the point you're trying to make. You use the same strategy to kill a guarded healer in 8s as in arena. There are advantages and disadvantages to tank stance and guard in PvP and while I admit, it's a pain to deal with sometimes, it's part of the game. Well, the point I'm trying to make is that heal+tank are very, very strong. But since arenas are all about playing coordinated to kill the other team, it's fine to have a combined heat+tank meta that is extremely difficult to beat, it makes the arena more challenging. Moreover, there are no respawns, meaning that once you manage to kill them, the match will move on. In 8X8s, on the other hand, you're playing for objectives like deffing and attacking nodes and doors. You need to kill people to get them out of the way, but you're surely not supposed to adopt an arena death-match style with 4-8 people only in order to be able to kill a combined healer+tank meta that is absolutely uber and that will respawn 10 secs later anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runescapeisgood Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I actually think the opposite. imo guard mechanics are pretty good for 8v8s and accomplished something unique in making ranked 8's viable, but they really negatively impact arenas. in fact i think the boredom induced by this mechanic is one of the main reasons 4v4 was and still is so universally disliked, even among good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpsmash Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) There were no arenas in vanilla, so it would seem weird to believed tanks and healers were designed with arena in mind for PvP. They are not destroying 8v8. They are just making some matches unfair (when a team has no access to either) or unfun (when half a team is composed of tank/healers). Destroying? I don't know about that. Edited November 16, 2015 by lpsmash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexsamma Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) Bad players are destroying pvp, lost count of how many games I out dpsed the rest of my team combined tonight... Wish bioware could sell skill on the cartel market. Edited November 16, 2015 by alexsamma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAOMSYH Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Its a simple case of learn to play. Nothing is wrong with PvP except the people doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laoi Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Well, the point I'm trying to make is that heal+tank are very, very strong. But since arenas are all about playing coordinated to kill the other team, it's fine to have a combined heat+tank meta that is extremely difficult to beat, it makes the arena more challenging. Moreover, there are no respawns, meaning that once you manage to kill them, the match will move on. In 8X8s, on the other hand, you're playing for objectives like deffing and attacking nodes and doors. You need to kill people to get them out of the way, but you're surely not supposed to adopt an arena death-match style with 4-8 people only in order to be able to kill a combined healer+tank meta that is absolutely uber and that will respawn 10 secs later anyway. you have 8 players to deal with it. its actually easier than in an arena. all it takes is coordination. ofc thats a big issue when solo queuing and getting teamed up with complete imbeciles all the time. solution to that is to not solo queue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laoi Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) I actually think the opposite. imo guard mechanics are pretty good for 8v8s and accomplished something unique in making ranked 8's viable, but they really negatively impact arenas. in fact i think the boredom induced by this mechanic is one of the main reasons 4v4 was and still is so universally disliked, even among good players. well its not unique. they actually stole the guard mechanic from DAoC and then decided to ruin it completely by making it a dmg split with way too much range instead of a % based chance to block an entire hit for your teammate IF ur actually close to him aka standing right next to him. essentially making it only viable in premades cos u cant rely on randoms healing you which means you eventually die to other ppls idiocy unless you remove guard and therefor refuse doing your job. Edited November 16, 2015 by Laoi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scinald Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) well its not unique. they actually stole the guard mechanic from DAoC and then decided to ruin it completely by making it a dmg split with way too much range instead of a % based chance to block an entire hit for your teammate IF ur actually close to him aka standing right next to him. essentially making it only viable in premades cos u cant rely on randoms healing you which means you eventually die to other ppls idiocy unless you remove guard and therefor refuse doing your job. The origin comes from DAoC, but the existing mechanic was lifted directly from Warhammer: Age of Reckoning (all of which is not shocking since they were all developed by some of the same people). That said, 8x8s full of good players can get around the whole tank/healer thing...usually either by solid focus fire plus some AOE or by using stealth to pull a cap where the healers/tanks aren't. Actually, the biggest mistake I see is people trying to beat their heads against a tank/heal wall instead of making the enemy move....that is when you are most likely to get the tank and healer split long enough to take down one of them. Edited November 16, 2015 by Scinald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzend Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Bad players are destroying pvp, lost count of how many games I out dpsed the rest of my team combined tonight... Wish bioware could sell skill on the cartel market. This. Good DPS can tear tanks apart. Consideringing decent hps at around 5k and great hps 6-7 k (which healers don't get by healing a single tgt) all you need is 3 dps who can pull more than 2.5 in a burst windows (most burst classes can pull 5-6 k or higher in their burst window ) or sustained classes pulling 3-3.5k and that tank is done. I don't care how OP you think healing is, they can't pull 12-15k hps. Lack of dps is your issue OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazz_Devlin Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) Dude there is no balance in this game what so ever. It is all to common an occurrence to be on a team with no heals vs the other that has heals or even a few healers and it takes no mental giant to figure out the outcome said match. These guys don't care. Edited November 16, 2015 by Kazz_Devlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 What should be clarified is that SORC/SAGE heals are overperforming. Saying ALL healers with tanks are a problem is not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James_Mcturney Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 There were no arenas in vanilla, so it would seem weird to believed tanks and healers were designed with arena in mind for PvP. They are not destroying 8v8. They are just making some matches unfair (when a team has no access to either) or unfun (when half a team is composed of tank/healers). Destroying? I don't know about that. Unfair or unfun is much worst than destroying imo ;p because after something is destroyed it can be rebuilt/remade.... which is not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAOMSYH Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 What should be clarified is that SORC/SAGE heals are overperforming. Saying ALL healers with tanks are a problem is not true. Spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetideus Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Well, the point I'm trying to make is that heal+tank are very, very strong. But since arenas are all about playing coordinated to kill the other team, it's fine to have a combined heat+tank meta that is extremely difficult to beat, it makes the arena more challenging. Moreover, there are no respawns, meaning that once you manage to kill them, the match will move on. In 8X8s, on the other hand, you're playing for objectives like deffing and attacking nodes and doors. You need to kill people to get them out of the way, but you're surely not supposed to adopt an arena death-match style with 4-8 people only in order to be able to kill a combined healer+tank meta that is absolutely uber and that will respawn 10 secs later anyway. Apart from using the same strategy in 8 vs 8 as in Arenas against tank - healer, there are more specs available. - Pyro PT. #1 tank killer. If played correctly the pressure is immense. - Virulence sniper. Impossible for a tank to shut down. - Lethality Op. I/e pressure and burst. Those specs are affected by the Arena meta, but are great. Edited November 17, 2015 by Aetideus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APCrol Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 No balance - that is what destroying 8x8. Not even skil balancing but no class balance. Imagine WOT with 15 tanks agains 15 artillery, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cretinus Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) All you guys answering this one post of mine and telling us that it's all an l2p, or an l2coordinate issue, will have to answer this one question: Are you guys 8X8 players or rather arena players? Cause the very main message of this post is that one can't expect arena tactics in 8X8s; and that these tactics are not what is required in 8X8s anyway. So if you play arena and come here only to defend your meta, then pls GET LOST!! cause this post is about 8X8s and not about arenas. Edited November 17, 2015 by Cretinus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Now they will tell you that "8v8 doesn't matter", because it is not Ranked or merely "a levelling stage". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runescapeisgood Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 All you guys answering this one post of mine and telling us that it's all an l2p, or an l2coordinate issue, will have to answer this one question: Are you guys 8X8 players or rather arena players? Cause the very main message of this post is that one can't expect arena tactics in 8X8s; and that these tactics are not what is required in 8X8s anyway. So if you play arena and come here only to defend your meta, then pls GET LOST!! cause this post is about 8X8s and not about arenas. the main premise of your thread is quite absurd. asserting that the "tank/healer meta" or anything else for that matter is being balanced around arenas is ridiculous, especially when you consider that such a combination isn't really any more effective than it was back before arenas even came out. i agree that having a good tank and a good healer on one team and only one or neither on the other is unbalanced, but that doesn't necessarily mean its broken. you can argue that nobody should expect tactics in regs but people shouldn't expect a complete lack of tactics either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyn Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Tanks and heals are not ruining PvP. The biggest reason balance, tanks, and heals are causing any real issues is the lack of a balanced Que system. IMO all Ques should balance roles. IE same amount of tanks, the same amount of heals would be a huge start in relieving frustration. Other major factors are people being more concerned with damage numbers than actually winning the game; Lack of prioritizing targets and letting healers free cast; not focusing targets, not separating tanks and heals, and classes with taunts not using them. While there are some issues with balance, and as much as i truly hate to say it, the biggest issues is a lack of a balanced Que system and a L2P issue. Edited November 17, 2015 by Rhyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 The biggest reason balance, tanks, and heals are causing any real issues is the lack of a balanced Que system. IMO all Ques should balance roles. I just thought : "Maybe Bioware sacrificed balancede teams for better pop rates ?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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