Elitism and Operations

[Corran]

I read this far. I understand there is more but I wanted to respond specifically to this since it is the meat and potatoes of the issue.

 

I am what YOU would consider an elitist. That doesn't mean I am one but you would consider me one. No not THAT person that was in your group. I wouldn't curse at you for needing mechanics explained but I can see where the frustration is on both sides of the argument. You explained your side now let me explain mine as "The Elitist"

 

When you talk about us being a community and supporting each other I get where you are coming from. Asking for help from the community you play the game with is a strength not a weakness. However, we are talking about group finder story mode here. There are guides in text online in numerous places which will explain boss fights in excruciating fashion, and there are COUNTLESS videos on youtube which do the same. Those too are part of this community you can get info from but are not using.

 

People like me who do group finder story mode content are not there to teach people how to do the OP in the majority . We are there for gear/commendations, and we want to get it done as fast as possible. You said and I quote "I shouldn't have to run with my guild to learn all the mechs"...why are you part of a guild then? This at its core are what guilds are designed for. If you want boots on the ground "in OP" training then that is what a guild is designed for. If your guild is not willing to do that then maybe it is time for a new guild.

 

In closing I do not agree with how the person handled the situation. I however understand where they are coming from. This is old content. There are resources online for you to get familiar with mechanics and tactics. You REFUSE to take advantage of those resources. In my personal opinion you should learn mechanics of an OP BEFORE joining group finder. Have the common courtesy to not be a drag on your team of randoms who are there to do it quickly.

 

as a 20+ year raiding mud/mmorpg veteran, I don't agree. not with the current raiding landscape.

 

current SM raiding is obscenely easy. so much so that if the entire thing wipes usually the tank and a healer will just finish the encounter.

 

I went into sm dread..thing. whatever that raid is. I haven't raided in this game since January 2012 .I was on a dps vanguard. the raid leader gave a quick breakdown of each fight which took all of less than a minute, and we one shot each boss. only two of the 8 in the group had ever been in the instance.

 

there is no excuse for not being patient with other players. you do yourself a disservice - that random anonymous player may be an incredible pro, who with a simple explanation makes your best guilds dps look the fool and in less gear. you deprive yourself the chance of meeting and possibly recruiting that individual into your ranks and possibly making a years-long friend in the process.

 

for SM raiding - queue and have fun. for harder, yes research the fights.

[Lirtoo]

So I don't expect a PUG to know the higher level mechanics, but I do expect them to know the SM ones.

 

Why is it expected that people know mechanics before they enter an ops? There is nowhere written in the rules of this game that people need to know tactics before they enter an ops. This is non sense from impatient elitist who are there to grind drops with one of their many alts. Also, like I said, it's a SPOILER having to read how to do the ops beforehand. Solving problems is a big part of the gameplay. One could tell new people to join a progression team in a guild for the fun of figuring out mechanics. But one could also say the same to elitist that they should raid with their guild team instead for a smooth run.

[thewitchdoctor]

Why is it expected that people know mechanics before they enter an ops? There is nowhere written in the rules of this game that people need to know tactics before they enter an ops. This is non sense from impatient elitist who are there to grind drops with one of their many alts. Also, like I said, it's a SPOILER having to read how to do the ops beforehand. Solving problems is a big part of the gameplay. One could tell new people to join a progression team in a guild for the fun of figuring out mechanics. But one could also say the same to elitist that they should raid with their guild team instead for a smooth run.

 

Huh?

 

So it is 'elitist' to expect people who join a GF op to take 10 minutes and look over a guide in order to not waste 7 other people's time and money, but it is completely logical to expect 7 strangers to be willing to help you experience the op fresh and 'solve the problem?'

[Lirtoo]

So it is 'elitist' to expect people who join a GF op to take 10 minutes and look over a guide in order to not waste 7 other people's time and money, but it is completely logical to expect 7 strangers to be willing to help you experience the op fresh and 'solve the problem?'

 

Yes it is "elitism" to expect new players to follow your personal standards of how to play the game. The elites too often see themselves as gods gift to the raid and impose their ocd on other players -- chocking the gameplay. Anyway, why do you play if it feels like you're wasting time and money?

[thewitchdoctor]

Yes it is "elitism" to expect new players to follow your personal standards of how to play the game. The elites too often see themselves as gods gift to the raid and impose their ocd on other players -- chocking the gameplay. Anyway, why do you play if it feels like you're wasting time and money?

 

Just a few points:

 

1. Those aren't my 'personal standards.' They are those imposed by the developers. For example, if the fight requires someone to use their interrupt skill, well, that isn't me telling you how to play, that is Bioware telling you how to play. As a specific, first boss in Cademinu: the mining droid. If I am the tank and you are the healer and I tell you, 'cleanse me when this debuff hits 5 stacks' - I am not being an elitist telling you how to play. That is a mechanic of the game. Same goes true for any encounter in an op. KP: when Sorno leaps to the rafters and the carbonising droids appear. You have to kill them or they keep the tanks stun locked. Again ... I am not telling you how to play. Bioware is. So, yeah, if you want to go do a PUG KP as a DPS and you are told, 'DPS have to kill carbonising droids,' that isn't elitist ... that's someone telling you the mechanic.

 

2. Perhaps I was a bit too vague. Obviously, I thought by 'money,' it was clear I meant 'in game credits.'

 

3. Your final question is silly. My reasons for playing are irrelevant. As are yours. I am simply pointing out the double standard that you have. Specifically, it is OK for you to waste 7 other peoples' time; but it is elitist for those 7 to expect you to take 10 minutes and get a gist of the op before hand. Again, those 7 aren't telling you how to play - they are expecting you to have a clue of how Bioware expects you to play.

Edited November 20, 2015 by thewitchdoctor

[DawnAskham]

Why is it expected that people know mechanics before they enter an ops? There is nowhere written in the rules of this game that people need to know tactics before they enter an ops. This is non sense from impatient elitist who are there to grind drops with one of their many alts. Also, like I said, it's a SPOILER having to read how to do the ops beforehand. Solving problems is a big part of the gameplay. One could tell new people to join a progression team in a guild for the fun of figuring out mechanics. But one could also say the same to elitist that they should raid with their guild team instead for a smooth run.

 

I am more than happy to provide a basic explanation of a fight, as I don't expect every single player to have detailed knowledge of every fight, though I assume players will listen and follow instructions as well as already know how to play their class and fill their role.

 

If however, someone refuses to follow basic instructions, and or exhibits a level of incompetence with playing their character and / or filling their role that hinders the groups' progress, I might remove them from the group.

 

And while there are no written rules requiring players to know an encounter before joining a group, there are also no written rules that require those of us who have put in the time and effort to know how to play our characters and fill our roles to waste our time wiping while you learn how to play.

 

Come prepared in knowing how to play your class, be willing to listen and follow instructions, and most groups won't mind for stuff like SM operations that you don't have detailed knowledge of every encounter.

 

Come unable to play your character or fill your role at a basic level of competency, refuse to listen to basic instructions, and tell the group to deal with wipes because you are 'problem solving', expect to get kicked.

Edited November 20, 2015 by DawnAskham

[AlrikFassbauer]

as a 20+ year raiding mud/mmorpg veteran, I don't agree. not with the current raiding landscape.

 

current SM raiding is obscenely easy.

 

Current SM can ONLY be "obscenely easy" for someone who has a 20+ year raid experience !

Never seen this before ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge

Edited November 20, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[Ruskaeth]

<MUDs mentioned> You are all casuals! </MUDs mentioned> Edited November 20, 2015 by Ruskaeth

[Ottoattack]

I did not read the op post in detail, but running an SM pug, you should expect that a good percentage of the players not to know the mechanics and might be a bit under geared. People are not expected to "study" the content before they run on SM.. nor have achievements.. Most SM mechanics are so easy anyway, and explaining them wont take more than a minute or two. If this HM/NiM that is a different story.

 

I have never ran into someone with an elitist mentality who successfully runs HM or NiM mode ops.

[LordTurin]

You don't need to know the mechanics to join a sm operation GF group (unless they specify you need to know fights to join), but you should at least have the courtesy to let people know you are new to the op. That being said, you shouldn't expect anymore explanation than "don't stand in stupid, stand behind boss, pew pew target a to 20%, then target b". If you wan't to know more of the fight, like why you need to attack target a then target b, or what the "stupid" is in this particular fight, that's on you to look up on your own time, or ask a guildy to explain to you. A person new to an operation deserves just enough explanation to allow them to stay alive and avoid wiping the group, but if they want to become good enough to lead their own raids someday, or progress through more operations, they should spend some time doing research.

[SilencerSeven]

there are some people out there who enjoy getting mad about things and just obviously look for any excuse to do so; those people (ex: the 'elitist' in the OP) can safely be ignored

 

that being said, most of these issues arise due to lack of communication; I couldn't tell you how many times I've been in a group, had everyone say they knew what was up and click ready, only to wipe due to obvious lack of knowledge. Nothing in this game is complicated enough that it can't be explained in a couple lines of text; if you don't know how a fight works, just say so and spare everybody the grief.

 

I was in a pub SM TFB the other day where one tank obviously didn't know what was going on. The first boss was easy since the adds don't really need to be tanked anyway, and we were able to kinda fumble through the second boss by battle res-ing the competent tank after he died with like 30 debuff stacks.

 

So on the way to operator we were trying to confirm with this guy that he knew what to do, or even get him to respond in chat. He was tanking the trash (well, sort of) but just not responding, despite chat requests, emotes, etc. Finally we concluded that we'd just have to replace him, and as someone was leaving to spam fleet general for a replacement the guy just dropped the group. He'd apparently been reading the whole time, but saying 'hey guys can you explain the fights' was a bridge too far.

 

Being new is fine; not knowing something is fine. Being actively ignorant is not fine.

 

ed: I mean, I join pug HM groups sometimes, and if I haven't already cleared on HM (and so don't have the achievement) I'll just say hey, I'll heal but I've only done 2/5 (or whatever) on HM. Almost always the group winds up deciding to invite me, and 10 seconds of explanation beforehand is enough to prevent obvious wipes. You have to be real determined to be incompetent to screw up story modes.

Edited November 20, 2015 by SilencerSeven

[psikofunkster]

there are some people out there who enjoy getting mad about things and just obviously look for any excuse to do so; .

 

 

Tons of people like that lately specially during tacticals, for me is a pretty good sign when a game is on crysis only the bad players remain....i'm not saying ALL are but you get my point.

Edited November 20, 2015 by psikofunkster

[Stealag]

I don't put up with Elitism. I was running a 55 NiM *before 4.0* and the guy swore up and down he ran SM and HM and NiM. I checked his achievements, he had never run any op EVER. "What ops have you run" I ask guy replies "Esseles, Red Reaper, Maelstrom Prison, and False Emperor." I'm just standing there like "Are you serious....." I don't like when people miscalculate and say "OH I KNOW I WAS RIGHT! I'M ALWAYS RIGHT! EVERYONE IS ALWAYS WRONG! I AM THE BEST, I DON'T NEED IMPROVEMENT!" That seriously makes me mad. When I encounter people like that, I'm like "Thank you Ignore Button......"

[SeCKSEgai]

There's a reason they call it standing in "stupid".

 

As a player participating in an operation, one is expected to have the basic competency of not standing in a marked color area. I can think of only two instances that are an exception - blue circles during coratanni fight and cross for UL.

 

Never having done it before you're naturally going to be less comfortable. But that player you refer to as elitist literally broke down the basics aside from wailing on master when he's around.

 

While said player's attitude is excessive, consider it from their point of view. People are generally investing an hour or more doing something for just a POTENTIAL gear drop. Players are depending on each other to be capable. The ops really haven't changed in a long while other than scaling, so the majority of players have been doing the SAME thing for a long while now. When a player fails to show BASIC competency, its bound to infuriate someone.

 

But I do have to emphasize basic competency. The tanks generally have a harder job as far as mechanics go. As damage, your responsibility is to run through a solid and efficient rotation applying damage while not standing in stupid. Heals are mostly in the same boat except with healing. With them, their job gets more difficult the less competent everyone else is at doing theirs. Tanks have to not only run an efficient rotation and maintain threat, but also have to be aware of other mechanics that dps/heals class may never notice, like against Torque.

 

When I finally started running ops, the hardest thing to get into was ToS because most people expect a UL cheevo. My guild didn't run ops, so I relied on pugging to learn everything. The first ToS I got into, the lead wasn't all that great or patient. I clarified myself as being a first-timer and got some flack for it, despite being in 192 everything with 186s augs. First wipe I received blame despite having nothing to do with it. Ultimately the lead realized that me, the new person who had never done it before understood it better than some of these people who had already finished it.

 

We didn't pass, but less than a week later I happened to find another group that didn't require the achievement and I got it then. After countless runs, you find there are people that can get through everything without a single death, and there are also people who manage to die consistently. I understood why people had requirements and expectations - not out of elitism, but because they knew that not every player had the capacity to play at even the sm level.

 

But I do get wanting to see a fight for the first time with your own eyes before looking it all up. I myself learned it that way, not looking up a single fight until after I had done it so I could perform better knowing all the nuances. But when there are at least 7 other people affected, don't be surprised to get flak if you under-perform. No one should have to hold your hand if you're unwilling to take a few minutes to do the research, especially when the info is so readily available.

[NikSunrider]

As a player participating in an operation, one is expected to have the basic competency of not standing in a marked color area. I can think of only two instances that are an exception - blue circles during coratanni fight and cross for UL.

 

Also Operator IX, Dread Guard Captains, thingamabob in the instanced WB for Ziost, and I am pretty sure there was one other time in DP.

[Nic__]

Also Operator IX, Dread Guard Captains, thingamabob in the instanced WB for Ziost, and I am pretty sure there was one other time in DP.

 

Technically it's not on the floor in DP (assuming your thinking of caly's portals only other thing I could think is maybe simplification on tyrans) more of a floating in the air.

[adbe_]

Whist I do not agree with hostile attitudes in PUGs, I must say people assumes that everyone is competent and have some basic knowledge about the Op.

 

I started playing Ops about year and a half ago, back in 2.x everyone run 16m Ops, and with most people overgeared (back then ult comm gets you 180 gear which is a loooooot higher than the entry level of 156) it is easy to carry newbies and it was quite common for leader to spend a few minutes to explain the mechanics.

 

These days it is much harder to carry someone, especially in 8m Ops where 1 baddie is a notable portion of the group, and especially in PUGs where most people are mediocre, there is very little room to carry people through Ops. M&B in particular is harder to carry coz they put out so much damage that tanks and healers need to do their job properly and there's also a relevant enrage timer that you cannot afford having a dead dps.

 

Also people joining PUGs want to get it done rather than join to educate the others, Imaging playing football with friends, if you tell you don't know what to do they might spend a bit of time telling you what to do. If you go to a public football pitch where anyone joins and have some fun, and you turn up and tell them you don't know how to play.... yeah you get a whole lot more insults and yellings than in SWTOR.

[Reyze]

See this is why I don't do raid's/operation's when you have to "research" something or be considered selfish it's not worth it this is a GAME not a job or school project. Now I want a decent challenge not something hard just for hard's sake,and not something I can beat without trying something in between now that's not the reason I don't do raids/operations....its idiot's that treat it as a job IE you have to research them or are considered selfish those that think and act that way are idiot elitist's who I won't waste my time dealing with. And I'm not missing anything well maybe one missing the annoyance and aggravation of dealing with those snobs.

[thewitchdoctor]

See this is why I don't do raid's/operation's when you have to "research" something or be considered selfish it's not worth it this is a GAME not a job or school project. Now I want a decent challenge not something hard just for hard's sake,and not something I can beat without trying something in between now that's not the reason I don't do raids/operations....its idiot's that treat it as a job IE you have to research them or are considered selfish those that think and act that way are idiot elitist's who I won't waste my time dealing with. And I'm not missing anything well maybe one missing the annoyance and aggravation of dealing with those snobs.

 

You realise it is all about 10 minutes of 'research' that's 'required,' right?

 

Step 1: think to yourself, 'huh, I'd like to do an op today.'

 

Step 2: verify what op is the GF op of the day.

 

Step 3: determine whether you have done that op before. If yes, skip ahead to 5. If no, proceed to 4.

 

Step 4: go to Dulfy.net and read the guide on the GF op of the day.

 

Step 5: join that PUG forming for the op of the day.

 

Step 6: yeah! you had fun!!!

 

This really isn't hard, complex or in any way 'work.' Its really just a little bit of common sense to think of the other 7 people in the group.

 

Yes, some people you meet in a PUG are a**hats. So are some people you meet on the street. You don't stop going outside so why let a few mouthbreathers ruin your fun in a game?

[Brittaany_Banks]

as a 20+ year raiding mud/mmorpg veteran, I don't agree. not with the current raiding landscape.

 

current SM raiding is obscenely easy. so much so that if the entire thing wipes usually the tank and a healer will just finish the encounter.

 

I went into sm dread..thing. whatever that raid is. I haven't raided in this game since January 2012 .I was on a dps vanguard. the raid leader gave a quick breakdown of each fight which took all of less than a minute, and we one shot each boss. only two of the 8 in the group had ever been in the instance.

 

there is no excuse for not being patient with other players. you do yourself a disservice - that random anonymous player may be an incredible pro, who with a simple explanation makes your best guilds dps look the fool and in less gear. you deprive yourself the chance of meeting and possibly recruiting that individual into your ranks and possibly making a years-long friend in the process.

 

for SM raiding - queue and have fun. for harder, yes research the fights.

 

It takes that ONE individual MAYBE 2 minutes to learn the mechanics of a particular fight BEFORE joining GF vs 5 minutes of explanation initially and an additional 20 minutes PER boss of wiping till they get it down.

 

They watch a video on youtube and that rolls down to MAYBE 20 seconds of fight specific instructions and possibly 1 wipe. Your way takes longer, my way goes shorter and reduces the chance of high skilled players (like me) dropping group because our play time is limited and don't have 2-3 hours to get a bunch of noobs up to speed.

 

Use the out of game resources available to you.

[TralyanSavo]

In the time you took to write that post, you could have read the Ravagers operations guide.

 

People shouldn't be jerks, but part of not being a jerk is preparing for group content in advance. SM Ops are so easy that you can let one or two people die and finish the fight, so there's no reason to spend time explaining a fight to someone if the mechanics are easy. For Master/Blaster, there's no way one person derping is going to wipe you, so its your repair bill. Why should you waste the time of 7 people for someone to type out something you should have read in advance?

 

Like it or not, every operation is at least 1 year old. For those of us who have been doing these forever, there's not a lot of reason to explain it to you beyond the simple stuff ("Don't stand in stupid") and if you are in an operation, you should know the basics already (stand behind boss, move out of the mobs, stack on group for AOE heals when appropriate, etc). When most veterans were new, it was courtesy to research an operation in advance so you knew what your responsibilities were. You should do the same.

[Scinald]

I love you all. You are so awesome for making my point that PvP is not the only game mode filled with demanding people who yell at folks for learning by playing. Every PvE player that is afraid of going into a PvP WZ should read this thread and know that the abuse you get in PvP is no worse than you get in PvE and oftentimes less.

 

Thanks everyone!

[DarthScruffy]

I love you all. You are so awesome for making my point that PvP is not the only game mode filled with demanding people who yell at folks for learning by playing. Every PvE player that is afraid of going into a PvP WZ should read this thread and know that the abuse you get in PvP is no worse than you get in PvE and oftentimes less.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

And PVP criticism is also less consequential as there is no "ignore option", unlike PvE. Sometimes if behavior is especially bad, I like pulling the wings off of those butterflies.

[Albertwang]

I enjoy doing ops but the Ebon Hawk ops culture is fairly negative and elitist. No sense of humor. And they are too stiff and lack a sense of satire.

 

On the other hand, Shadowlands is very nice for raids.

 

I really don't like the raiding culture much. They aren't social and most of them are over-analytical. I do raid a little on pubside on Ebon Hawk but I may switch to doing raids on impside because the folks there are less elitist.

[kirorx]

I enjoy doing ops but the Ebon Hawk ops culture is fairly negative and elitist. No sense of humor. And they are too stiff and lack a sense of satire.

 

On the other hand, Shadowlands is very nice for raids.

 

I really don't like the raiding culture much. They aren't social and most of them are over-analytical. I do raid a little on pubside on Ebon Hawk but I may switch to doing raids on impside because the folks there are less elitist.

 

I see the negative attitudes in flashpoints more than raids IMO. Alot of dps that get so used to being carried and doing things the same way over and over with their guild, that when they PUGS and they are unkind to newer players and quick to boot people.

 

I raid on Ebon Hawk and i dont have too many issues, typically people seem cool and are willing to go over mechs.

Not so much in flash points, lol.

I am always willing to help though