ChaosMageKing Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 The quote that's the source of my rage is listed below in spoiler tags. On the subject of Vitiate/Valkorian. Outlander: "You don't know him like I do. He murdered billions. And committed atrocities too numerous to name. Koth: "Well, he was good to Zakuul. Outlander: "*disgusted silence*" Rant Engage: By Koth's logic, if I went and murdered orphans, widows, puppies, and pregnant women, as long as I was good to Zakuul, I'm a great man who can do no wrong. What was going through your mind Bioware? Why is this companion unkillable? All of my characters, even those who are darker than imagining, can't accept this. When this convo happened, every single toon I have wanted to be like "You will DIE. Now." And then force choke/lightsaber stab/blaster bolt to the head/lightning to the heart. Seriously, we're stuck with a companion who is very obviously modeled after the Nazi sympathizers? If we don't get the option to kill Koth in the next chapter, I'm going to be sooooo let down. Furthermore, why can't Koth accept the cruel calculus of war? To stop Arcann there is no cost too great. If I have to snuff out every life on Zakuul, to put an end to that man, then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwinLi Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) You missing the big part of Koth's lore being that he is like all citizens of Zakuul. For his entire life, like everyone else in the Eternal Empire, they had only know Valkorian as a benevolent rule who has done his best to make life good for his people. Our character, however, has only known him as a murderous sith emperor and never knew him as a benevolent ruler of a empire. Like most citizens of Zakuul, Koth doesn't believe the claims our character are making about Valkorian because we don't have actual physical proof that the Murderous Emperor we know is actually their Benevolent Emperor Valkorian. I can't blame him since what actual proof do we have for them other than stories about him being some "immortal ghost that feeds on life to sustain his immortality" which is quite the far fetched story unless you actually seen it for yourself. The citzens on the Eternal Empire also did not even know the Republic nor the Sith Empire existed until 5 years ago when Arcann began his campaign against the core worlds. Edited November 8, 2015 by EdwinLi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWUSS Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 You missing the big part of Koth's lore being that he is like all citizens of Zakuul. For his entire life, like everyone else in the Eternal Empire, they had only know Valkorian as a benevolent rule who has done his best to make life good for his people. Our character, however, has only known him as a murderous sith emperor and never knew him as a benevolent ruler of a empire. Like most citizens of Zakuul, Koth doesn't believe the claims our character are making about Valkorian because we don't have actual physical proof that the Murderous Emperor we know is actually their Benevolent Emperor Valkorian. I can't blame him since what actual proof do we have for them other than stories about him being some "immortal ghost that feeds on life to sustain his immortality" which is quite the far fetched story unless you actually seen it for yourself. The citzens on the Eternal Empire also did not even know the Republic nor the Sith Empire existed until 5 years ago when Arcann began his campaign against the core worlds. And the funny thing is, it wasn't that long ago when Sith Empire characters would have felt the same way that Koth feels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachimthbear Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 And the funny thing is, it wasn't that long ago when Sith Empire characters would have felt the same way that Koth feels. A very good point. Imagine if the Jedi Knight player character were to meet the Sith Warrior player character right after the Knight killed the Emperor. Would the Warrior listen for one second to anything the Knight had to say, let alone believe that the Emperor had been on the verge of devouring the whole galaxy, including his own faithful Wrath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 A very good point. Imagine if the Jedi Knight player character were to meet the Sith Warrior player character right after the Knight killed the Emperor. Would the Warrior listen for one second to anything the Knight had to say, let alone believe that the Emperor had been on the verge of devouring the whole galaxy, including his own faithful Wrath? Yep also where was he when that happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosMageKing Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 My point wasn't OOC that I disliked the character. Though, I admit that is how my original post read. My point was the lack of an option to slaughter him. OOC, I'm annoyed because there is no option that my characters would take. The majority of my characters have zero tolerance for people like Koth. And OOC I'm upset that the option doesn't exist and I have to thus, force my toons to follow a path that they wouldn't follow of their own volition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianDavion Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 so basicly it's ok if you slaughter billions because it's good for your cause, but it's wrong for anyone else to maybe support someone who did the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachimthbear Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 OOC, I'm annoyed because there is no option that my characters would take. The majority of my characters have zero tolerance for people like Koth. And OOC I'm upset that the option doesn't exist and I have to thus, force my toons to follow a path that they wouldn't follow of their own volition. Well, for the sake of argument, are your characters ok with Lana Beniko? Would they have killed her the moment she refused to condemn the Empire's record of mass murder and slavery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xilizhra Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 A very good point. Imagine if the Jedi Knight player character were to meet the Sith Warrior player character right after the Knight killed the Emperor. Would the Warrior listen for one second to anything the Knight had to say, let alone believe that the Emperor had been on the verge of devouring the whole galaxy, including his own faithful Wrath? Why? Sith are always prepared for treachery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrutchCricket Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Why? Sith are always prepared for treachery. Not the Wrath apparently. The Wrath seems to forever be the discarded tool and is none the wiser. Otherwise OP, am I to understand that you (or rather, your characters) want to slaughter everyone that disagrees with them? Because if that's the case, even my inquisitor might tell you to chill from time to time. Koth indeed misspoke in that exchange. Instead of "He was good to Zakuul" he should've said "prove it". Give me the name of a politician who's done well by your country and who's generally liked (might be harder for some). Now I'll tell you he's a monster who eats babies. Are you going to take me at my word, discarding perhaps generations of beliefs? Or will you need some proof first? The overreaction on this point is quite surprising. Even more surprising that only Koth gets flak. Senya doesn't buy your story either. Do you also wish to "slaughter" her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) The overreaction on this point is quite surprising. Even more surprising that only Koth gets flak. Senya doesn't buy your story either. Do you also wish to "slaughter" her? At least she admits she's biased because she loved the guy... I'm with the OP, he's obviously worked with Lana long enough to have heard about the Sith Emperor and his deeds plus all the information Lana has linking the Sith Emperor to Valkorion. It has to at least be nagging at him severely if the only people he knows who seem to have had contact with the Emperor (aside from his wife) are telling him Valkorion was a mass-murderer. Plus, why wouldn't you believe the man with your Emperor in his head? I mean it is kinda hard to mistake his identity at that point. One curious point: Valkorion admits he's the Sith Emperor in his conversation with Marr and the Outlander and admits to the atrocities he committed all while in front of two dozen personal guards. If we remember, Senya used to be part of those guards, and so very likely has friends there. I find it highly odd that after 5 years, rumors about Valkorion's identity as the Sith Emperor and the atrocities he committed haven't started to swirl (at least) around the Knights of Zakuul. I mean, they're not robots and the guy they're discussing is dead and was hardly important to Arcann so it isn't like it would get them in serious trouble if the rumors were kept among the Knights... Speculation as to the rumor thing, but fact is Valorion's identity is known by at least a very small number of Knights, weird that in 5 years Senya never heard anything. Edited November 9, 2015 by StarSquirrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilikaa Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) At least she admits she's biased because she loved the guy... I'm with the OP, he's obviously worked with Lana long enough to have heard about the Sith Emperor and his deeds plus all the information Lana has linking the Sith Emperor to Valkorion. It has to at least be nagging at him severely if the only people he knows who seem to have had contact with the Emperor (aside from his wife) are telling him Valkorion was a mass-murderer. Plus, why wouldn't you believe the man with your Emperor in his head? I mean it is kinda hard to mistake his identity at that point. One curious point: Valkorion admits he's the Sith Emperor in his conversation with Marr and the Outlander and admits to the atrocities he committed all while in front of two dozen personal guards. If we remember, Senya used to be part of those guards, and so very likely has friends there. I find it highly odd that after 5 years, rumors about Valkorion's identity as the Sith Emperor and the atrocities he committed haven't started to swirl (at least) around the Knights of Zakuul. I mean, they're not robots and the guy they're discussing is dead and was hardly important to Arcann so it isn't like it would get them in serious trouble if the rumors were kept among the Knights... Speculation as to the rumor thing, but fact is Valorion's identity is known by at least a very small number of Knights, weird that in 5 years Senya never heard anything. The Knights are under the direct command of Vaylin. Knowing how psychotic she is do you really think those present would be stupid enough to spread rumors about Valkorian? I know I'd be scared to speak my mind with her as my commander. That girl makes Dark Jaesa look like a nun. Edited November 9, 2015 by Kilikaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palar Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 One curious point: Valkorion admits he's the Sith Emperor in his conversation with Marr and the Outlander and admits to the atrocities he committed all while in front of two dozen personal guards. If we remember, Senya used to be part of those guards, and so very likely has friends there. I find it highly odd that after 5 years, rumors about Valkorion's identity as the Sith Emperor and the atrocities he committed haven't started to swirl (at least) around the Knights of Zakuul. I mean, they're not robots and the guy they're discussing is dead and was hardly important to Arcann so it isn't like it would get them in serious trouble if the rumors were kept among the Knights... Arcann pulls his coup five minutes later - I'm guessing that going on a purge of Valkorion's loyalists is Top 5 on his list, so maybe none of those guards were around to say anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 This assumes than Lana and Koth both talked about it, or that Koth would even believe Lana on it. Koth is with Lana and the Outlander, because he wants Arcann out. Anything bad said about Valkie is just like anything true said about anyone's favorite polician when it's negative. It's just not true. As for killing Koth because he said that, I wouldn't see how anyone could lead an Alliance with an attitude like that. But then, leading an alliance like the one presented and being kill em all DS makes no sense anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yria Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 At least she admits she's biased because she loved the guy... I'm with the OP, he's I mean, they're not robots and the guy they're discussing is dead and was hardly important to Arcann so it isn't like it would get them in serious trouble if the rumors were kept among the Knights... Actually, as far as the Knights know Arcann does care. If you tell Tanek and Novo to go arest their new Emperor for killing the old one, Tanek goes all "How dare you!" and tells you that Arcann cried his remaining eye out mourning his daddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkais Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Koth indeed misspoke in that exchange. Instead of "He was good to Zakuul" he should've said "prove it". Give me the name of a politician who's done well by your country and who's generally liked (might be harder for some). Now I'll tell you he's a monster who eats babies. Are you going to take me at my word, discarding perhaps generations of beliefs? Or will you need some proof first? You're right, and I wish Bioware would have paid a bit more attention to the dialog in this case. Koth's like of the emperor could easily be justified by him simply not knowing about what has happened outside wild space, and not necessarily believing what outlander and Lana are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazproperty Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) there is no cost too great. If I have to snuff out every life on Zakuul, to put an end to that man, then so be it. Psycho Rant Engage* Edited November 9, 2015 by Lazproperty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosMageKing Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Not the Wrath apparently. The Wrath seems to forever be the discarded tool and is none the wiser. Otherwise OP, am I to understand that you (or rather, your characters) want to slaughter everyone that disagrees with them? Because if that's the case, even my inquisitor might tell you to chill from time to time. Koth indeed misspoke in that exchange. Instead of "He was good to Zakuul" he should've said "prove it". Give me the name of a politician who's done well by your country and who's generally liked (might be harder for some). Now I'll tell you he's a monster who eats babies. Are you going to take me at my word, discarding perhaps generations of beliefs? Or will you need some proof first? The overreaction on this point is quite surprising. Even more surprising that only Koth gets flak. Senya doesn't buy your story either. Do you also wish to "slaughter" her? Senya doesn't go fully either way. I've fully explored every convo option with her and there's at least one path that will lead to her admitting she didn't know the man half as well as she wished she had, and didn't really have any idea what he might have been capable of. So she doesn't flat out say that she disbelieves you, but neither does she offer him a gold ticket pass simply because he was "nice to Zakuul." Koth on the other hand, doesn't ever take into consideration the fact that he didn't really know Valkorian. And instead blindly sings his praise. That's the part that all of my toons have issue with. An inherited trait in my legacy family is a hatred of sycophants. And that's what Koth is. A blind sycophant, unwilling to admit he barely knows anything about what he's jabbering about, and that the possibility exists that what we say is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Regarding Koth, Even when you first meet him he mentions he wants to trust you but he hasn't developed that trust with you yet. Just a few chapters in the expansion doesn't mean he's going to trust what you say. He wants to but that doesn't mean he has. I don't know about you if I didn't know about the Republic and Empire up until 5 years ago I might have trouble believing what someone says. We have no idea if Koth will see things differently in later chapters. This is new to him he never seen or even heard about what the emperor did until Lana and the outlander came along. How can he honestly trust either based on what he may have witness in Zakkul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosMageKing Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Regarding Koth, Even when you first meet him he mentions he wants to trust you but he hasn't developed that trust with you yet. Just a few chapters in the expansion doesn't mean he's going to trust what you say. He wants to but that doesn't mean he has. I don't know about you if I didn't know about the Republic and Empire up until 5 years ago I might have trouble believing what someone says. We have no idea if Koth will see things differently in later chapters. This is new to him he never seen or even heard about what the emperor did until Lana and the outlander came along. How can he honestly trust either based on what he may have witness in Zakkul. Maybe I'm looking at this too rationally. If I only knew things about someone, that they allowed me to know, but they kept the majority of the truth about themselves secret, I'd be willing to consider the fact that others who come along from outside my personal fold might know things I don't. And I wouldn't be so quick to tell them they were wrong simply because someone was nice to me, even though I didn't know half of what he was about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canareth Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 The Knights are under the direct command of Vaylin. Knowing how psychotic she is do you really think those present would be stupid enough to spread rumors about Valkorian? I know I'd be scared to speak my mind with her as my commander. That girl makes Dark Jaesa look like a nun. And she has godlike powers even the Knights have never seen before. The Knights are Force-sensitive but not particularly strong/skilled and they only view it as a tool. Vaylin can seemingly do whatever she wants and no one taught her much of this. So take that plus that she'll arbitrarily kill anyone - including Knights - and the Knights aren't going to say a dang thing or allow anyone else to say something that could have even possibly originated with them. - And Senya does believe that Valkorion wasn't who she thought he was. You can talk to her about the children and she's extremely upset by how he acted and continuously disappeared, and she is very traumatized by how Vaylin has turned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChurnChurnChurn Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 What bothers me about it is "He was good to Zakuul, derp." is such a complete non-answer to what you said, it doesn't even address it properly. It's entirely natural to think if that's the answer, then he's saying that justifies everything. If the idea is that he doesn't believe you, why can't I address his apparent belief that I'm a liar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachimthbear Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 What bothers me about it is "He was good to Zakuul, derp." is such a complete non-answer to what you said, it doesn't even address it properly. It's entirely natural to think if that's the answer, then he's saying that justifies everything. If the idea is that he doesn't believe you, why can't I address his apparent belief that I'm a liar? That's one interpretation, but not the only one. I'm pretty sure what Koth is saying is that he doesn't believe the same person who was so good to Zakuul could do the things you're saying he did. He thinks it would be out of character. And he has a point - we have the same kind of trouble believing that Valkorion could really have ruled Zakuul benevolently because we know how he treated his other Empire. There is a disconnect in Vitiate's/Valkorion's apparent behaviour and right now nobody can explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 A very good point. Imagine if the Jedi Knight player character were to meet the Sith Warrior player character right after the Knight killed the Emperor. Would the Warrior listen for one second to anything the Knight had to say, let alone believe that the Emperor had been on the verge of devouring the whole galaxy, including his own faithful Wrath? Difference is, Koth KNOWS that Valkorian is in the Outlander's head. So logically he should beleive that the outlander knows more about the guy inside his head than Koth does, especially since Koth has probably only seen Valky on TV or somthing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachimthbear Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Difference is, Koth KNOWS that Valkorian is in the Outlander's head. So logically he should beleive that the outlander knows more about the guy inside his head than Koth does, especially since Koth has probably only seen Valky on TV or somthing. But if Koth concluded that you must know Valkorion well because he's inside your head, he'd be wrong. All Valkorion has done since he became a passenger in your skull is obfuscate, misdirect and tempt. He doesn't reminisce about that great time when he ate everyone on Ziost or his past as absentee god-dictator of a brutal police state. Far from learning all about him since this whole process started, we've ended up knowing even less about Vitiate/Valkorion than we thought we knew to start with. If you were giving Koth a running update on everything Valkorion's voice in your head says, what would he have heard that would support your claim that Valkorion is secretly a planet-devouring monster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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