Forever a sith?

[nuclearmind]

No one ever seems to point out exactly what makes the Jedi as bad as the Sith other than "*whine* They don't let you love"

 

Seriously, that seems to be it. Sith may kill on a whim, but they let you be who you want to be. They just forget that means they'll kill you for being a nice sith unless you happen to be to powerful, but you still need a ruthless side.

 

Jedi talk a big game about no attachments, but they all get sad when they lose friends. Obi Wan was hurt when Anakin fell. Yoda was saddened when the Republic fell.

 

People don't like groups with ideals that are harder to live up. Sith on the other hand are easy to live up to. "Do as you please. Gain power or die trying." is pretty easy to live up to...plus they get to love, except, not really. It's not love when it's "I'll love you unless I need to sacrifice you for myself or for a bigger powerbase, in which case, I might miss you."

On a phone or I would go piece by piece. Bad things of the Jedi: (including both EU and Non. I will mark EU)

1. Conscripted Children to fight a war. Example: Battle of Ruusan (EU).

2. Fail to ensure emotional stability or protection for their magic little trainees (Canon).

3. Upheld and Protected a corrupt Government, and furthered said Government: Outbound Flight, various negotiations, opposed various rebellions on Monarchial Worlds in the Repiblic (Canon).

4. Attempted to overthrow an elected official. Regardless if he was a Sith, he was elected. If the courts were corrupt, create a new court. But a coup de tat and execution of a public official is wrong (Canon).

5. Violate basic human rights via mind control (Canon). Obi and the Stormfrooper, attempt on Watto, etc.

6. Abduction of Children (Canon)

7. Attempt to exterminate all Dark Jedi (EU).

8. Genocide of the Sith Species (Attempt) (EU).

 

I could go on but am on a phone. I am not saying Sith are good, I truly believe Gray is good. But the Jedi are a lot worse than just "anti marriage."

[Audoucet]

I prefer to think of myself as "right from a certain point of view".

 

We are not talking about interpretation, but about Canon. There is an author, who is the truth of his own universe. If I tell you that in my own 50 shades of Grey fanfic Lana Beniko is a werewolf stripper, you can disagree as much as you want and pretend it's a vampire working for the Vassals of the Morning Star, it's my fanfic, so I'm right.

 

I have no care what Lucas says. My opinion is that the Sith are not good, but the Jedi no better. What Lucas said doesn't matter- he is an advisor now but lost all creative control when he sold to Disney. He doesn't even have control over Episodes 1-6 now. If Disney released a remastered version where the Jedi slaughtered little kids, that would be Canon. And Jedi would be evil. Because, as I am trying to say- Lucas no longer controls Canon and never will again. The EU (somewhat sadly, somewhat thankfully) was thrown out. All that matters is what DISNEY says and even then it's open to interpretation.

 

No, everything isn't open to interpretation. You can interpret values. You can indeed think that Jedis are no better than Sith. I would find that preposterous, but it is a moral judgement. So I can't just tell you "you are absolutely axiomatically wrong". BUT, you cannot think that Tatooine has only one sun. You cannot pretend that Darth Vader didn't wear a mask in the 4th movie. And you cannot say that the Dark Side doesn't corrupt and make people go crazy. That's a fact, not a judgement of value.

 

And yes, Disney picture can now change everything, maybe they will, maybe they will not, and I will accept the change in the official continuity. Just like I accepted the official change from the Living Force, to the Trinity doctrine, even though I hate it. The Dark Side as a cancer to the Living Force, and the absence of the Light Side, was in my opinion infinitely better, and I find the father-daughter-son shenanigans utterly stupid, but whatever, I don't care about my opinion, only about the official Canon.

[SithKoriandr]

On a phone or I would go piece by piece. Bad things of the Jedi: (including both EU and Non. I will mark EU)

1. Conscripted Children to fight a war. Example: Battle of Ruusan (EU).

2. Fail to ensure emotional stability or protection for their magic little trainees (Canon).

3. Upheld and Protected a corrupt Government, and furthered said Government: Outbound Flight, various negotiations, opposed various rebellions on Monarchial Worlds in the Repiblic (Canon).

4. Attempted to overthrow an elected official. Regardless if he was a Sith, he was elected. If the courts were corrupt, create a new court. But a coup de tat and execution of a public official is wrong (Canon).

5. Violate basic human rights via mind control (Canon). Obi and the Stormfrooper, attempt on Watto, etc.

6. Abduction of Children (Canon)

7. Attempt to exterminate all Dark Jedi (EU).

8. Genocide of the Sith Species (Attempt) (EU).

 

I could go on but am on a phone. I am not saying Sith are good, I truly believe Gray is good. But the Jedi are a lot worse than just "anti marriage."

 

What abduction of children? I have never read anywhere that they just abducted children. Sith do that, not Jedi. Qui Gon didn't abducte Anakin, the mother let him go and the son wanted to go. Where is this abduction?

 

Children to fight in the war? You mean those children trained in the martial arts at a very young age and basically trained to be warriors pretty early? In a galaxy far far away where this is normal. Not our galaxy (well the US anyways, plenty of countries think children can be made into warriors).

 

Upheld the best choice of a government. They can only expose the corrupt, they can't help it if people are dumb enough to vote for them and then allow them to stay in.

 

Love how you went from upholding a corrupt government then int he same comment said stopped the elected official (who got elected only through backhanded treachery). And sorry, I don't think you're going to find many okay with the idea of "Oh yeah! I totally support the idea of a all time emperor and enslaver to rule over me forever, able to kill me on a whim, because hey, he was voted to the position"

 

It's not called Mind Control, it's called Force Persuasion. You know, that thing people always try to do to others. Persuade them to elect their corrupt selves for instance

 

As for the killing of Dark Jedi/Sith, haven't read anything on that, except it sounds like the Sith and Dark Jedi tended to have done some evil and really bad stuff, and then thought they were in the right and can get away with it. Dark Jedi "I killed these people and it's okay, because I'm not bound to your rules." Sith "We decided to do lots of evil stuff, but it's okay because we went off to create our own government that allows it."

[nimmerstil]

No one ever seems to point out exactly what makes the Jedi as bad as the Sith ...

They're not infallibly good, that's what wrong with them. Somewhere we believed, lead to believe, that they were supposed to be, you know, good. Then they turn out to be like everyone else and make mistakes. Tears, hate.

[nuclearmind]

We are not talking about interpretation, but about Canon. There is an author, who is the truth of his own universe. If I tell you that in my own 50 shades of Grey fanfic Lana Beniko is a werewolf stripper, you can disagree as much as you want and pretend it's a vampire working for the Vassals of the Morning Star, it's my fanfic, so I'm right.

 

 

 

No, everything isn't open to interpretation. You can interpret values. You can indeed think that Jedis are no better than Sith. I would find that preposterous, but it is a moral judgement. So I can't just tell you "you are absolutely axiomatically wrong". BUT, you cannot think that Tatooine has only one sun. You cannot pretend that Darth Vader didn't wear a mask in the 4th movie. And you cannot say that the Dark Side doesn't corrupt and make people go crazy. That's a fact, not a judgement of value.

 

And yes, Disney picture can now change everything, maybe they will, maybe they will not, and I will accept the change in the official continuity. Just like I accepted the official change from the Living Force, to the Trinity doctrine, even though I hate it. The Dark Side as a cancer to the Living Force, and the absence of the Light Side, was in my opinion infinitely better, and I find the father-daughter-son shenanigans utterly stupid, but whatever, I don't care about my opinion, only about the official Canon.

 

Oh absolutely there are facts. My point was the relative morality of organizations, and the events themselves, are open to interpretation. Tarkin fired on Alderaan. That is a fact. Leia lying about the base being on Dantoinne is a fact. An opinion/interpretation is that is that Leia is wrong/did wrong- she would see a planet of innocents- no different than Alderaan- be destroyed solely to protect her Rebel Alliance which were armed combatants and ensure HER people didn't die. If she said "They are on Yavin." She would have had no (possible) innocent blood on her hands.

But that is my interpretation of the scene.

[Audoucet]

1. Conscripted Children to fight a war. Example: Battle of Ruusan (EU).

 

Non canon

 

2. Fail to ensure emotional stability or protection for their magic little trainees (Canon).

 

Failure doesn't make you evil, especially when you didn't want to do it in the first place because you knew you would fail.

 

3. Upheld and Protected a corrupt Government, and furthered said Government: Outbound Flight, various negotiations, opposed various rebellions on Monarchial Worlds in the Repiblic (Canon).

 

1st : Corrupted by a Sith. 2nd : They didn't enter the fight before the Sith Doku ordered their death, when they were in a defensive position. Take the Sith out, no Jedi.

 

4. Attempted to overthrow an elected official. Regardless if he was a Sith, he was elected. If the courts were corrupt, create a new court. But a coup de tat and execution of a public official is wrong (Canon).

 

Well he was the head of the separatists too. And killed people. And kept attacking with Force shock. I guess you can call it treason.

 

5. Violate basic human rights via mind control (Canon). Obi and the Stormfrooper, attempt on Watto, etc.

 

Jedis didn't exist in one case, and the other case, the Jedi didn't give a damn about the council.

 

6. Abduction of Children (Canon)

 

When ?

 

7. Attempt to exterminate all Dark Jedi (EU).

 

Non canon

8. Genocide of the Sith Species (Attempt) (EU).

 

Non canon

Edited November 12, 2015 by Audoucet

[Audoucet]

They're not infallibly good, that's what wrong with them. Somewhere we believed, lead to believe, that they were supposed to be, you know, good. Then they turn out to be like everyone else and make mistakes. Tears, hate.

 

Which is why I hate the changes about the living Force. Jedis were not supposed to be good, they were "state of nature". Acceptance. Which is why they don't attack slavers. Which is why there wasn't any "light side", only the Force.

[nuclearmind]

What abduction of children? I have never read anywhere that they just abducted children. Sith do that, not Jedi. Qui Gon didn't abducte Anakin, the mother let him go and the son wanted to go. Where is this abduction?

 

Children to fight in the war? You mean those children trained in the martial arts at a very young age and basically trained to be warriors pretty early? In a galaxy far far away where this is normal. Not our galaxy (well the US anyways, plenty of countries think children can be made into warriors).

 

Upheld the best choice of a government. They can only expose the corrupt, they can't help it if people are dumb enough to vote for them and then allow them to stay in.

 

Love how you went from upholding a corrupt government then int he same comment said stopped the elected official (who got elected only through backhanded treachery). And sorry, I don't think you're going to find many okay with the idea of "Oh yeah! I totally support the idea of a all time emperor and enslaver to rule over me forever, able to kill me on a whim, because hey, he was voted to the position"

 

It's not called Mind Control, it's called Force Persuasion. You know, that thing people always try to do to others. Persuade them to elect their corrupt selves for instance

 

As for the killing of Dark Jedi/Sith, haven't read anything on that, except it sounds like the Sith and Dark Jedi tended to have done some evil and really bad stuff, and then thought they were in the right and can get away with it. Dark Jedi "I killed these people and it's okay, because I'm not bound to your rules." Sith "We decided to do lots of evil stuff, but it's okay because we went off to create our own government that allows it."

 

In Star Wars child soldiers are considered wrong- even Obi was uncomfortable sending in 10 year old clones. There is a reason so many defected.

 

Oh I agree on te corrupt government- but they either support it or they fight it- no wishy washy. Palpatine used no force persuasion per Lucas and Wookieepedia- he was just very politically adept. And sent a single guy to a slave camp.

 

Force Persuasion is mind control of the weak. That soldier had no control over his mental faculties- but it's okay because a JEDI did it.

 

The Dark Jedi were a sect of Jedi. The Jedi said "Turn back to the light or be destroyed." The Dark Jesi rebelled and were defeated. They were sent on a ship with no Nav computer (the Jedi wanted them to die, but didn't want to directly kill them.) into the Inknown Regions. They hit Korriban, fought, and interbred. Created an empire, lost to the Jedi again, and the Jedi organized a Genocide of all pure blood Sith.

 

It's less what you said and more "If Sith kill it's evil, if we kill it's for the Greater Good."

 

Again on a phone. I wish to answer better but my laptop is undergoing repairs. I am really enjoying this debate, wish there were more people like y'all around where I live.

[nimmerstil]

There is an author, who is the truth of his own universe.

And if in their universe Tatooine has two moons in one story and three moons in another, they're not to be taken seriously as narrators.

[Audoucet]

And if in their universe Tatooine has two moons in one story and three moons in another, they're not to be taken seriously as narrators.

 

Yes, and ? I don't take my government seriously, but I still have to pay 900 euros to make a garden shed.

[nimmerstil]

Yes, and ?

I ignore the litter they produce.

[squirtai]

1. Conscripted Children to fight a war. Example: Battle of Ruusan (EU).

 

Non canon

 

2. Fail to ensure emotional stability or protection for their magic little trainees (Canon).

 

Failure doesn't make you evil, especially when you didn't want to do it in the first place because you knew you would fail.

 

3. Upheld and Protected a corrupt Government, and furthered said Government: Outbound Flight, various negotiations, opposed various rebellions on Monarchial Worlds in the Repiblic (Canon).

 

1st : Corrupted by a Sith. 2nd : They didn't enter the fight before the Sith Doku ordered their death, when they were in a defensive position. Take the Sith out, no Jedi.

 

4. Attempted to overthrow an elected official. Regardless if he was a Sith, he was elected. If the courts were corrupt, create a new court. But a coup de tat and execution of a public official is wrong (Canon).

 

Well he was the head of the separatists too. And killed people. And kept attacking with Force shock. I guess you can call it treason.

 

5. Violate basic human rights via mind control (Canon). Obi and the Stormfrooper, attempt on Watto, etc.

 

Jedis didn't exist in one case, and the other case, the Jedi didn't give a damn about the council.

 

6. Abduction of Children (Canon)

 

When ?

 

7. Attempt to exterminate all Dark Jedi (EU).

 

Non canon

8. Genocide of the Sith Species (Attempt) (EU).

 

Non canon

 

We are on a swtor forum, talking about a swtor character, and you're writing off the EU examples as non canon? The old EU is the exact same level of canon that the old republic was part of. So if anything, the EU examples are more relevant when talking about Jedi/the force in the context of swtor setting.

 

On the topic of mind control... there was that brilliant thing the Jedi council did with Revan in kotor 1...

[Audoucet]

We are on a swtor forum, talking about a swtor character, and you're writing off the EU examples as non canon? The old EU is the exact same level of canon that the old republic was part of. So if anything, the EU examples are more relevant when talking about Jedi/the force in the context of swtor setting.

 

On the topic of mind control... there was that brilliant thing the Jedi council did with Revan in kotor 1...

 

You are right. I should make a difference between TOR, and Star Wars, since there isn't a lot of thing in common beside light sabres. Obviously Bioware just ignore everything they don't like.

[SithKoriandr]

That still leaves no example of when Jedi abduct children. So an example is needed or is the poster just spouting things off?

[nuclearmind]

That still leaves no example of when Jedi abduct children. So an example is needed or is the poster just spouting things off?

 

Apologies I was hoping to get my PC. Still in the shop so still on a phone. I remember reading about it in one of the Epiosde I, II, III era books. I want to say the Zonoma Sekot one. Really the books there were bad, and I was only reading them because my goal is to read EVERY SINGLE SW book. It said something along the lines of "All babies in the Republic were tested for Midochloriaans, and those with them were taken by Jedi regardless of parental wishes." Otherwise they could grow up to be Sith or Dark Side. As I have nothing direct I will retract that point.

[SithKoriandr]

Apologies I was hoping to get my PC. Still in the shop so still on a phone. I remember reading about it in one of the Epiosde I, II, III era books. I want to say the Zonoma Sekot one. Really the books there were bad, and I was only reading them because my goal is to read EVERY SINGLE SW book. It said something along the lines of "All babies in the Republic were tested for Midochloriaans, and those with them were taken by Jedi regardless of parental wishes." Otherwise they could grow up to be Sith or Dark Side. As I have nothing direct I will retract that point.

 

Stealing them, and then not accepting them if found at a later date, would just contradict each other. Also, there's a matter of time periods. In TOR, the Jedi are more than willing to take in older recruits. Only in the Prequal Trilogy, did they seem to have a problem with taking in older trainees.

 

It's also flawed in that if left without training, they fair they'd go dark side and sith, then the same fear would be there for those who are older. Plenty of evidence of self taught force users.

[nuclearmind]

Stealing them, and then not accepting them if found at a later date, would just contradict each other. Also, there's a matter of time periods. In TOR, the Jedi are more than willing to take in older recruits. Only in the Prequal Trilogy, did they seem to have a problem with taking in older trainees.

 

It's also flawed in that if left without training, they fair they'd go dark side and sith, then the same fear would be there for those who are older. Plenty of evidence of self taught force users.

 

Indeed which is why I believe they went for universal chlorinated testing. But again I can't say for sure it was that book, so I will retract that point. The idea of leaving a bunch of force users to do as they please is flawed, but so is forcing every one into the order. The Jedi are always in a tough pickle in this regards, and no matter what they do they will face consequences.

[nimmerstil]

... The idea of leaving a bunch of force users to do as they please is flawed, but so is forcing every one into the order. The Jedi are always in a tough pickle in this regards, and no matter what they do they will face consequences.

 

Whole worlds existed and flourished with force users before the Jedi even existed to "guide them to the light" ...

 

Anyway, there's ocean's of options between abducting - or otherwise forcing - force-sensitive toddlers into the Jedi Order and leaving them to their own devices.

[nuclearmind]

Whole worlds existed and flourished with force users before the Jedi even existed to "guide them to the light" ...

 

Anyway, there's ocean's of options between abducting - or otherwise forcing - force-sensitive toddlers into the Jedi Order and leaving them to their own devices.

 

My knowledge of pre Jedi-Sith is admittedly sparse. I know a lot of the Rakata and Celestials (though info on both is pretty sparse, I know what there is to know.) I know little of the Three- my sole source being the FotJ Vestara-Ben-Luke 9 book series. Never watched TCW or the new show. And my knowledge of the Jedaii is next to non existent.

 

That being said, I view EU Jedi as morally grey as best, same for the Sith. But I view the Cultists, such as Palladius, which would spring up in the absence of a greater Force Power, as worse.

 

Personally I view Darth Caedus, Lana Beniko, Darth Marr, and, from what I have seen, the current Shan, as the "Best" their orders can offer. Not blood thirsty, pragmatic, and advancing the ideals of their side without needless blood shed.

 

 

A point that often amuses me, off topic, is that in the OT the Skywalker with the highest intended innocent victims/"collateral" was... Wait for it... Leia. She tried to get Dantoinne blown up which was as innocent as Alderaan instead of the solely military base of Yavin IV.

[Audoucet]

Apologies I was hoping to get my PC. Still in the shop so still on a phone. I remember reading about it in one of the Epiosde I, II, III era books. I want to say the Zonoma Sekot one. Really the books there were bad, and I was only reading them because my goal is to read EVERY SINGLE SW book. It said something along the lines of "All babies in the Republic were tested for Midochloriaans, and those with them were taken by Jedi regardless of parental wishes." Otherwise they could grow up to be Sith or Dark Side. As I have nothing direct I will retract that point.

 

There is official Canon stating otherwise. Clone Wars S02E01. And, well, Episode I. Qui'Gon can't take Anakin to his owner.

[nuclearmind]

There is official Canon stating otherwise. Clone Wars S02E01. And, well, Episode I. Qui'Gon can't take Anakin to his owner.

I'm guessing you mean from? If so I stand corrected. The closest to abductions would be the conscriptions for the Battle of Ruusan and the like. And honestly, those really back fired with so many of the kiddos defecting.

[Audoucet]

I'm guessing you mean from?

 

Yeah sorry, french mistake.

[nuclearmind]

Yeah sorry, french mistake.

 

Hey no problem! You do a lot better on an English forum than I would on a French Forum! Been watching the news since about 8 over here. Hope you are doing okay.

[SithKoriandr]

My knowledge of pre Jedi-Sith is admittedly sparse. I know a lot of the Rakata and Celestials (though info on both is pretty sparse, I know what there is to know.) I know little of the Three- my sole source being the FotJ Vestara-Ben-Luke 9 book series. Never watched TCW or the new show. And my knowledge of the Jedaii is next to non existent.

 

That being said, I view EU Jedi as morally grey as best, same for the Sith. But I view the Cultists, such as Palladius, which would spring up in the absence of a greater Force Power, as worse.

 

Personally I view Darth Caedus, Lana Beniko, Darth Marr, and, from what I have seen, the current Shan, as the "Best" their orders can offer. Not blood thirsty, pragmatic, and advancing the ideals of their side without needless blood shed.

 

 

A point that often amuses me, off topic, is that in the OT the Skywalker with the highest intended innocent victims/"collateral" was... Wait for it... Leia. She tried to get Dantoinne blown up which was as innocent as Alderaan instead of the solely military base of Yavin IV.

 

That body count is not on Leia. She did not blow up Alderaan. The Empire did.

 

One can say she was willing to sacrifice Dantooine over Alderaan, but I'm not sure if that is any better. I would guess it was bery likely empty or just a Alliance base, so chance of them getting out of dodge.

[nuclearmind]

That body count is not on Leia. She did not blow up Alderaan. The Empire did.

 

One can say she was willing to sacrifice Dantooine over Alderaan, but I'm not sure if that is any better. I would guess it was bery likely empty or just a Alliance base, so chance of them getting out of dodge.

 

No Alderaan is on Tarkin. IF they used the DS as they threatened them the fact that they targeted Dantoinne would be on Leia, and the fact that they fired would be on Tarkin.