Confused by the controversy over game difficulty

[The_Grand_Nagus]

As the title states, I am confused by the controversy over the game's current difficulty. The reason I am confused is because each individual player has complete control over how difficult or easy their missions are. You can choose to upgrade your gear, or continue using lower tier gear if you wish. You can choose to dismiss your companion and fight solo if you wish. Each person can make their gameplay as easy or as difficult as they choose. So why the controversy?

[Callaron]

Elitism.

The same reason some people complain that everything should be an endless grind where only those with unlimited time can get somewhere.

[Jerqa]

As the title states, I am confused by the controversy over the game's current difficulty. The reason I am confused is because each individual player has complete control over how difficult or easy their missions are. You can choose to upgrade your gear, or continue using lower tier gear if you wish. You can choose to dismiss your companion and fight solo if you wish. Each person can make their gameplay as easy or as difficult as they choose. So why the controversy?

 

I could not agree with you more.

 

Unfortunately, people will complain for the sake of complaining. Especially on a game forum

[MaximusRex]

Pretty much people who think it's too easy, mostly veterans who are probably well geared and know their characters well, think that the base difficulty should be raised to meet their expectations, with no thought given to what new players without gear, knowledge, high presence, or other legacy perks will do when everything is a giant roadblock to them. They also tend to not acknowledge the hard content that is available, like Flahspoints, Ops, PvP, and GSF.

 

That all said, it is possible that companions might be scaling a bit too well at higher Influence levels, and there are some legitimate edge cases, like the Sith Warrrior and Inquisitor chapter 3 class story final bosses being scaled down to level 12 making them extremely easy that might need some adjustment.

 

But forums being forums, there is only black and white, and no shades of grey.

[heythereqt]

As the title states, I am confused by the controversy over the game's current difficulty. The reason I am confused is because each individual player has complete control over how difficult or easy their missions are. You can choose to upgrade your gear, or continue using lower tier gear if you wish. You can choose to dismiss your companion and fight solo if you wish. Each person can make their gameplay as easy or as difficult as they choose. So why the controversy?

 

Completely agree with you, OP.

 

The funny thing is...the game is no less challenging now, compared to how it used to be. Combat is just more fast-paced, and fighting through mobs is more streamlined. If my companion is dps, I can burn through mobs a bit quicker. If my companion is a healer, I don't have to worry about taking the time to heal up after a fight. Pre-4.0 however, companions did minimal damage/healing, and you would have to take time to regen after 95% of fights. I just found that to be tedious, and I don't miss it.

 

Also, pre-4.0 I only ever ran with treek or HK as a companion, I don't miss that either.

[Swissbob]

As the title states, I am confused by the controversy over the game's current difficulty. The reason I am confused is because each individual player has complete control over how difficult or easy their missions are. You can choose to upgrade your gear, or continue using lower tier gear if you wish. You can choose to dismiss your companion and fight solo if you wish. Each person can make their gameplay as easy or as difficult as they choose. So why the controversy?

 

I'll try to explain (again) why I and others who like overcoming the game's adversity, rather than our own self imposed handicaps.

 

Before I do that though, I want to say

 

1) I'm not advocating for the removal of the current "easy" level of difficulty.

 

and

 

2) I of course recognize that not only are there people who disagree with me (who don't want innate challenge in the game), but that those people in fact seem to be the majority, and while I really don't understand how so many people can be support of everything being incredibly easy in the game, I do understand that is simply the market, as unfortunate as I find it.

 

Anyway, my explanation:

 

 

I am, as it stands right now, trying to manufacture difficulty for myself (dismissing companions, etc.). But it isn't a good long term solution. Trying to find ways to artificially manufacture difficulty with no built in incentive in the game really still puts a damper on any difficulty I'm creating for myself. I mean I could play with a blindfold or an arm tied behind my back but in these ways I'm battling arbitrary restrictions I'm imposing on myself, , rather than battling the game's natural opposition.

 

All of that might seem weird to you, as it is kind of a psychological thing, but if I have to go around the natural way of the game to invent difficulty for myself, psychologically it isn't satisfying because there's no sense of accomplishment because I'm just giving myself challenge that isn't there naturally. But if I go through the natural way of the game, and there's challenge, then overcoming that challenge *is* satisfying because it's actual adversity presented *to* me, as opposed to *by* me.

 

I want to be forced to use every resource at my disposal to win, not be forced to purposefully limit what resources I get to use just to force a little bit of challenge out of the game.

 

To use an example, let's say I want to play a game of [insert favorite team sport here]. I show up to find that the opposing team is comprised of 5 year olds who have absolutely no chance of beating me and present no challenge. Would that be fun? Not for me; I want challenge. I want a strong opposing team. Now, I could manufacture my own challenge by tying all four limbs behind my back and wearing a blindfold! That would even the playing field against the five year olds, but it wouldn't be fun, because I'm just meaninglessly manufacturing difficulty for myself, rather than having an obstacle or challenge presented to me.

 

I get satisfaction (ie entertainment) from overcoming adversity (a team of skilled players), and not from overcoming my own self-imposed handicaps. I don't want to arbitrarily limit myself just to invent a modicum of difficulty that wasn't there at all, I want my opposition's inherent challenge to require me to use all of my assets and resources to triumph.

 

TL;DR Put simply, I want the ability to make my enemies stronger, not purposefully handicap my own strength. I want to feel like I'm competing against a force dangerously equal to my own maximum ability, not lowering myself down to the level of the Kindergarten enemies.

 

 

 

Anyway, I do not wish to ruin the game for you if you find the Easy Mode fun. All I want is more player choice.. I want there to be a Hard Mode option for solo content, preferably that raises rewards (eg xp/credits/loot) like existing Hard Mode content. Hopefully that *option* wouldn't impact anyone's gameplay in a negative way, and would provide a win-win solution where everyone can have fun.

 

EDIT: Think Hard Mode / NiM FP's/Ops. Those exist because people want a genuine challenge presented to them *by the game.* If everyone was okay just purposefully limiting their gear to get a challenge, those types of content probably wouldn't exist.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Swissbob

[AlienEyeTX]

Pretty much people who think it's too easy, mostly veterans who are probably well geared and know their characters well, think that the base difficulty should be raised to meet their expectations, with no thought given to what new players without gear, knowledge, high presence, or other legacy perks will do when everything is a giant roadblock to them. They also tend to not acknowledge the hard content that is available, like Flahspoints, Ops, PvP, and GSF.

 

That all said, it is possible that companions might be scaling a bit too well at higher Influence levels, and there are some legitimate edge cases, like the Sith Warrrior and Inquisitor chapter 3 class story final bosses being scaled down to level 12 making them extremely easy that might need some adjustment.

 

But forums being forums, there is only black and white, and no shades of grey.

 

lol... yeah, people beg for legacy perks to make things easier... complain about the work it takes to get anywhere... then complain when they think the game is too easy.

[DamenX]

People like there video games to be a challenge ..... not sure how that's confusing.

[Swissbob]

Elitism.

The same reason some people complain that everything should be an endless grind where only those with unlimited time can get somewhere.

 

I disagree with all of that. I'm all for streamlining the game, even offering a "No Combat Mode" for people who want to skip combat altogether if they so wish.

 

I rarely get time to play these days too, yet when I do, I want it to be a fun, interesting and compelling challenge, not a boring and uninteresting faceroll.

 

Unfortunately, people will complain for the sake of complaining. Especially on a game forum

 

Well, I can't speak for others, but I "complain" in the naive hope that maybe if enough people do the same that a game I care about can improve.

 

Also because I enjoy discussing the game, and I like to see other people's opinions and maybe be persuaded, among other reasons.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Swissbob

[Uruare]

As the title states, I am confused by the controversy over the game's current difficulty. The reason I am confused is because each individual player has complete control over how difficult or easy their missions are. You can choose to upgrade your gear, or continue using lower tier gear if you wish. You can choose to dismiss your companion and fight solo if you wish. Each person can make their gameplay as easy or as difficult as they choose. So why the controversy?

 

In most games with a new expansion that changes a lot of stuff, there usually winds up being a bandwagon issue; at least one.

 

There's usually a kernel of reasonable concern at the heart of such things, but mostly it's just a snowball of hyperbole, over reaction and forum posters exacerbating and aggravating eachother until it looks like a much bigger issue than it ever actually was.

 

The cheese had been moved, and the usual sorts are doing the usual amount of Chicken Little'ing and doom prognosticating about it.

 

It's kind've like a circus, if you'll indulge me in the comparison. A lot of trumped up pageantry, a lot of showcased absurdity, a lot of caricaturization.

 

The self evidencing truth is that it seems like there are some flaws and definitely a few too many bugs, but nothing catastrophic had befallen, not sure catastrophe seen imminent in any way.

 

And that more than anything is likely pissing the doomsayers and sobbing Sallies off miss than anything, because a whole lot of them would feel absolutely vindicated if they were ever actually right about any of their hysterical prophecies.

 

But the Armageddon they yearn for that would feel so satisfying to them to have expected and foreseen keeps not coming.

 

Worse for them, things generally seem to be doing well, with a generally positive view on the new things and stuff batting rather easy to find wherever one might look.

 

And so the chicken littles and the doom prophets, once again left out in the cold by the realities of situations that keep refusing to conform to either their expectations or their demands, howl on with the conviction of thwarted comic book villains.

 

Just you wait! You'll rue the day! You think everything is good because it's good now, but you'll see! In four months, it'll be the end of everything! Doom! Doom and hellfire! Repent! Repent before it's too laaaaaaaaaaate!

 

But as history clearly evidences, the world just keeps on turning and the games will just keep trundling along, very likely doing reasonably well and having some noteworthy but ultimately fixable issues to address sober then later as the closest thing to catastrophe likely to come of it.

 

The chicken littles and doomsayers will eventually find a new bandwagon issue to convene upon. Soon enough, these issues will be as abandoned to silence as the sobbing and doomsaying about RotHC not continuing individual class stories has become.

 

Verily, do many things come to pass, and there'll always be some crying about it.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Uruare

[AlienEyeTX]

I disagree with all of that. I'm all for streamlining the game, even offering a "No Combat Mode" for people who want to skip combat altogether if they so wish.

 

I rarely get time to play these days too, yet when I do, I want it to be a fun, interesting and compelling challenge, not a boring and uninteresting faceroll.

 

I guess that leaves PvP and raids.

 

Not that the game was ever THAT challenging in the story parts to begin with...

[The_Grand_Nagus]

People like there video games to be a challenge ..... not sure how that's confusing.

 

You failed to comprehend the point of the OP. I'm not confused that some people enjoy challenging video games. I'm confused why there is a controversy about this game's difficulty when each individual person can control how difficult the game is for their own gameplay, through various means. It would be like complaining that the volume on the TV is too low when you are holding the remote and have the ability to turn it up any time you choose.

Edited November 6, 2015 by The_Grand_Nagus

[Swissbob]

I guess that leaves PvP and raids.

 

Not that the game was ever THAT challenging in the story parts to begin with...

 

Unfortunately I very rarely have the ability to set aside enough break-free time in a day for a whole raid, though I do enjoy PvP (even though the FPS makes it difficult sometimes).

 

As for the second part, yeah you're right... it never was that challenging. But at least there was some sliver.... just enough to keep it engaging, IMO.

[Faardor]

yeah I personally never thought the story content was hard.

 

I feel a bit conflicted, everything has been made easier (well with the exception of PVP because thats just player related) Either because mobs on planets have been nerfed (due to level sync) or because companions are more effective. Flashpoints have been made easier as well, yes even tactical flashpoints. If they werent riddled with people who have no idea how to play their class or co-ordinate on mob pulls then people wouldn't even be complaining.

 

Story mode operations have been made easier as well with certain bosses losing mechanics, reduced damaged, simplified damage, removed enrage timers, etc. HM flashpoints have been made easiers, I did notice however that certain HM flashpoints don't grant the level sync bolster for players that arent lvl 65 (noticed a tank that didnt get any stats and reported he was missing most of his attacks on a HM esseles run)

 

I guess in a nutshell you can say everything has been reduced in difficulty except for HM / NIM operations, altough they feel artificially harder than they are due to the difficulty gap bioware created between SM and HM by making SM easier.

 

I do not exactly mind that everything has been made easier, it allows me to play some of the content my friends were struggling with in 3.0 and makes groupfinder as a somewhat viable way to do operations (I pretty much ran a groupfinder operation run of Ravagers yesterday and it went really smooth, no wipes and while we suffered from the escape pod bug several times we cleared it by following mechanics)

 

But on the other hand defeating a boss you mightve been struggling with (so for 3.0 for most people that wouldve been underlurker) and beating it and then getting that euphoric feeling of victory? yeah you wont get that anymore.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Faardor

[hadoken]

Mostly they're not satisfied with it being a personal achievement (i.e. hard for just them) they want the world to know how awesome they are. Kind of the definition of elitism, really.

[heythereqt]

In most games with a new expansion that changes a lot of stuff, there usually winds up being a bandwagon issue; at least one.

 

There's usually a kernel of reasonable concern at the heart of such things, but mostly it's just a snowball of hyperbole, over reaction and forum posters exacerbating and aggravating eachother until it looks like a much bigger issue than it ever actually was.

 

The cheese had been moved, and the usual sorts are doing the usual amount of Chicken Little'ing and doom prognosticating about it.

 

It's kind've like a circus, if you'll indulge me in the comparison. A lot of trumped up pageantry, a lot of showcased absurdity, a lot of caricaturization.

 

The self evidencing truth is that it seems like there are some flaws and definitely a few too many bugs, but nothing catastrophic had befallen, not sure catastrophe seen imminent in any way.

 

And that more than anything is likely pissing the doomsayers and sobbing Sallies off miss than anything, because a whole lot of them would feel absolutely vindicated if they were ever actually right about any of their hysterical prophecies.

 

But the Armageddon they yearn for that would feel so satisfying to them to have expected and foreseen keeps not coming.

 

Worse for them, things generally seem to be doing well, with a generally positive view on the new things and stuff batting rather easy to find wherever one might look.

 

And so the chicken littles and the doom prophets, once again left out in the cold by the realities of situations that keep refusing to conform to either they're expectations or their demands, howl on with the conviction of thwarted comic book villains.

 

Just you wait! You'll rue the day! You think everything is good because it's good now, but you'll see! In four months, it'll be the end of everything! Doom! Doom and hellfire! Repent! Repent before it's too laaaaaaaaaaate!

 

But as history clearly evidences, the world just keeps on turning and the games will just keep trundling along, very likely doing reasonably well and having some noteworthy but ultimately fixable issues to address sober then later as the closest thing to catastrophe likely to come of it.

 

The chicken littles and doomsayers will eventually find a new bandwagon issue to convene upon. Soon enough, these issues will be as abandoned to silence as the sobbing and doomsaying about RotHC not continuing individual class stories has become.

 

Verily, do many things come to pass, and there'll always be some crying about it.

 

Haha I thoroughly enjoyed reading through this! I legitimately laughed out loud at the part I underlined, because of how often people have been posting garbage that is almost identical to that on the forums lately. Honestly, I think a lot of people take the game (and gaming in general) way too seriously. Dont get me wrong, I love a healthy debate...but the whole "this is swtor 2, everyone hates it now, 100% of the game has changed, my life is ruined, the devs are the worst people in the world and so is anyone who supports them, the world is ending, THE WORLD IS ENDING!" theme is just ridiculous.

[Swissbob]

Mostly they're not satisfied with it being a personal achievement (i.e. hard for just them) they want the world to know how awesome they are. Kind of the definition of elitism, really.

 

Again, I don't speak for other people so I could be wrong, but I know for me (and I think for others too) it's not that they aren't satisfied with a personal achievement, it's that they aren't capable of reaching a personal achievement if they know that what they are "achieving" was difficult only because they were just artificially reducing themselves down to a low level.

 

It should be about raising yourself up to triumph over adversity, now lowering yourself down just to feel something.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Swissbob

[JediJFR]

Pretty much people who think it's too easy, mostly veterans who are probably well geared and know their characters well, think that the base difficulty should be raised to meet their expectations, with no thought given to what new players without gear, knowledge, high presence, or other legacy perks will do when everything is a giant roadblock to them. They also tend to not acknowledge the hard content that is available, like Flahspoints, Ops, PvP, and GSF.

 

That all said, it is possible that companions might be scaling a bit too well at higher Influence levels, and there are some legitimate edge cases, like the Sith Warrrior and Inquisitor chapter 3 class story final bosses being scaled down to level 12 making them extremely easy that might need some adjustment.

 

But forums being forums, there is only black and white, and no shades of grey.

 

Interesting, but misses the point I and many others have had as founders of this game. While I didn't have to travel hrs to become a founder as I read in a post, I have been a star wars fans since I first saw the original movie back in '77. So you could say I have a boomer outlook on all of this.

 

As I remember, there are dozens of planets in which to level your toon. This is where you learn your toon and work on your gear. Yeah grinding seemed a bit endless in the beginning. Part of that is the learning curve. And improvements were made to allow one to more easily complete their class stories.

 

What I and other mean when we say it has become too easy is that they have nerfed years of work and companionship (our comps) and replaced them with brown and white generic toons that are way over powered. Thus running around with these toons is what has become too easy. You can't get killed. I ran all of the bonus missions and am running the star fortress missions just me and lana.

 

I have to laugh when I see a new roller with 1.5k health with a comp of 6k. Seriously? Did I miss the spot where I stuck a quarter in the game slot to play a game that I would always win?

 

Part of the challenge was developing your toons in different roles to help you complete various class missions. All of that is gone. So yeah, us founders have learned the game and are perplexed that some believe there should be ZERO learning curve.

 

More importantly we believe that we had our content, our toons, stolen from us and no amount of running ease of gameplay propaganda up the flagpole will ever return the years of development and enjoyment we had indulging in the art of becoming a real jedi.

 

Hang around the fleet for a while. Doesn't the sight of all those identical lana's bother you? And I still get pissed off rumaging thru my cargo bays and seeing the gear of my lost comps.

 

Too easy not? HAHA.

[Atalantia]

I don't know how many were around during closed beta.

 

They made a build that upped the difficulty ALOT

 

released it as one of OPEN BETAS

 

as an example because I remember this particular encounter

 

There is a lvl 14 Jedi double elite at Lord Grathans estate, up on a hill

 

Before that build you could go kill him at 12 solo in green gear, now this is before all the legacy perks and the ability to get anything but DK and Korriban datacrons

 

They also lowered the XP rewards for that build by about half of what it was the first Open BEta

 

So 4 of us go to kill Mr Jedi, at lvl 13 three of us die and the last one standing had about 100 HP's

 

moral of the story there was so much complaining in the Open beta response forums about the difficulty being massive vs the first Open beta that when we got the new Closed beta build it was reverted to the previous easier mode. And the slower leveling curve was also complained about. And they did try hard once.

 

So I guess BW decided easier was more cost effective as in more people will play

Edited November 6, 2015 by Atalantia

[Swissbob]

So I guess BW decided easier was more cost effective as in more people will play

 

As much as I personally would love difficulty like that.... You're right. And I can't blame them for it.

 

That said, actual toggleable difficulty options would keep even more people happy and playing. Would it be worth the work/time/money, however? I don't know.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Swissbob

[Myracarrah]

There shouldn't be much confusion. I personally want to learn in a game. I want to learn my stats, my rotations, my stances. I want to learn positioning. I want my character to die five or six times before I figure out the mechanics of a fight.

 

Right now, the game seems to have taken much of the learning out of it. All gear is now Mastery because knowing to put Cunning on your Agent was too complicated? I don't know. The quests awarded me gear with Cunning, so I sort of always assumed that's what Agents wore.

 

It seems to me personally, that Bioware has removed that 'learning' aspect from the game to compensate for people buying a level 60. So now you can know nothing about mechanics, skills, and your gear, and JUMP right into the high level content. I'm entirely alright with lower levels softening content so that people do not become frustrated while learning. However by the time you get to Nar Shadda, you should know how to control a crowd / taunt a group, how to interrupt, and how to stack your heals.

[zalanii]

This game has never really been that difficult to level, and I hardly think it should be.

 

I leveled at launch as a healer, and it was easy. Boring, but easy. But according to some people it was "challenging" or hard or something...

 

beats me

[RAVM]

This game has never really been that difficult to level, and I hardly think it should be.

 

I leveled at launch as a healer, and it was easy. Boring, but easy. But according to some people it was "challenging" or hard or something...

 

beats me

 

It was never hard, but you seriously can't see the difference between now and then?? Companions are 10X stronger than what they used to be.

[Myracarrah]

No it wasn't challenging at launch. I played a merc healer as my first char, marauder as my second. With both I ended up dismissing my companions on the starter planets just to keep from falling asleep due to the faceroll of it all.

 

However that's me. I don't expect that's everyone's experience in the game.

 

Perhaps what I was hoping for was that Heroics would scale up, and we could set their difficulty (similar to setting them for FPs) instead of everything scaling down. Heck during Shadows of Revan I was soloing the Attack on Tython set to Tactical, (Jaesa with my marauder) and using a med pack for heals as you 'required a group' to hit the healing stations.

[InabaSensei]

As the title states, I am confused by the controversy over the game's current difficulty. The reason I am confused is because each individual player has complete control over how difficult or easy their missions are. You can choose to upgrade your gear, or continue using lower tier gear if you wish. You can choose to dismiss your companion and fight solo if you wish. Each person can make their gameplay as easy or as difficult as they choose. So why the controversy?

 

I would like to address this question.

 

First, on personal victory conditions.

Personal victory conditions are fun, cool and I advocate for them. There was a game called Gemfire many years ago on 16bit consoles. Just a really cool and wonderful design, but the game was "solvable". To make ongoing replays more engaging I and many other players of the game would often set personal victory conditions. Often, during a board game if I think the game or the stated conditions are disagreeable I will carve my own path. Either taking out one specific opponent, recruiting only robots, saving five princesses or whatever. Yes, gamers should know that they can and should define their own experiences in many games and situations.

 

Second, on risk and consequences.

Some people seem to want to forget that any engaging and worthy narrative needs to posses logic and consequences. For a game to have *choices* it must also have risk. By removing consequences the dev has degraded the narrative. By removing risk the dev has removed choice from the game. I could write an essay, but either you get this or you don't. If you don't it is willful on your part, and It's not like you are going to change your mind or even claim to understand this concept.

 

Third, on monotony.

You are suggesting that it should be/can be/is the players responsibility to add risk to the game design. but in a galaxy entirely populated by small groups of annoying creeps eternally in your way what is my incentive to do that? How often have you seen players roaming around in their hover vehicles in a random roundabout zigzag just because they are *so* sick of it. The level sync has made this much worse.

I want you to understand something important here.

*I still can't die*

the real result of your suggestion would be spending even *more time* button mashing against meaningless, speed bump creeps.

 

one reason I like District 7 and that one sith warrior mission where you defend house organa against wave after wave of attackers is that they are different and somewhat difficult. Yes, I have found some ways to have fun in the game, but I do not appreciate the dev's seeming total lack of understanding of the basics of game design and narrative. Therein lies the controversy.

 

Forth, on rewards,

I have x99 frozen jerky schematics I would like to sell you. let me know where to meet.