Bring Back the Heroic 4 Missions!

[Tarkashae]

For those with this attitude, let's hear why? You only want EZ god mode when you play this game?

 

I want to just do the stupid quest, not spam general for however long trying to find 3 other people to get it done.

 

Face it, the majority cbf to help each other, why make it harder to get through the game.

[Mowermanx]

The Heroic missions are way too easy to solo, seriously. I've done several of them on various planets and there's no challenge with these uber companions. Remember when doing a Heroic 2 solo was actually a challenge? Now they're no more difficult than any mission, it just takes longer to kill the mobs.

 

I'm wearing augmented PVP gear (so not even close to the best for PVE) with a companion (tank or dps stance) at Influence rank 20 (again, not even close to maxed out) and I'm sleep walking through these.

 

I don't mind doing some things to artificially inflate the challenge, like pull multiple mob groups at a time, but I'm not going to strip naked (shouldn't feel the need to do so stupid stuff like that, especially on a PVP server).

 

To be clear, I'm not asking for all the Heroics to change, just the ones that were formerly H4s. That would still leave plenty of H2s for new players starting with green gear and no legacy bonuses. Because at some point, even those people will find these Heroics way too easy.

 

It was a big mistake to change all the H4s to H2s with this companion system. Put them back the way they were so we can have some semblance of a challenge some of the time.

 

Why use a companion? You get nothing for having them there, no points, no influence, so why use them?

Are you trying to get through them faster?

Enquiring minds would really like to know why you have to have a companion for these heroics?

[LordJestR]

We had H4 since launch. I think we all know how popular they were

[Swissbob]

[swissbob, your opinions are worthless, you're whining, no one cares, and other unpleasantries]

 

I'm going to try (and likely fail) to make this quick because you have devolved this discussion quite rapidly and I don't want to dwell too much on this as mud slinging on forums is just unproductive and uninteresting.

 

You really make it a point to drive home repeatedly how worthless and meaningless my opinions are. Okay.... sure. You have pointed out the obvious several times over in a self-superior, condescending and pointlessly antagonistic way that fails to be conducive to a mature discussion abut SWTOR (you know, the topic of these forums?). We can go around and point at every single posters opinions on the forums and say "haha they are meaningless and change nothing" but really.... what is the point in that?

 

You know what the forums are for? Discussing our opinions on the game. As much "irrelevant dust" as they may be.... that's the point. If you really think it's so meaningless... why are you here? Just to put down and dismiss everyone because ultimately their opinions don't really enact change? Because that's all you've really progressed towards with your responses.

 

You know why do I discuss my opinions on the game?

1) I care about the game.

2) I enjoy it.

3) I want to see other people's opinions (because I don't believe in an "objective should be" like you comically assert).

4) I might actually be swayed or convinced.

5) It helps me organize and further develop my own opinoins

6) It actually provides some catharsis by putting my emotions and feelings into words (you as a human might have experienced this)

 

Notice I'm not posting because I want to "dictate what the game must be" or because I think Bioware listens to my every demand and will change their game according to my every desire, so your dismissals are misguided and ineffective.

 

You say "Well what you want isn't how it is. Deal with it." Well, guess what. I enjoy expressing my opinion about the game on a forum designated for the expressing of opinions about the game. And through all of your insults, pointless mischaracterizations of my views (like really saying I believe in "objective should be's" after I advocate for OPTIONS and PLAYER CHOICE...?), posturing, sarcasm, and self-superior attitude ("you wish I didn't read it"...." back pedal harder" etc.) , you've done basically nothing to progress the discussion nor impart anything beyond the painfully obvious.

 

 

And of course I'm gonna play the game if I enjoy it or not if I don't. Thank you for imparting that particular insightful wisdom upon me so I know how to spend my time.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Swissbob

[RAVM]

Why use a companion? You get nothing for having them there, no points, no influence, so why use them?

Are you trying to get through them faster?

Enquiring minds would really like to know why you have to have a companion for these heroics?

 

I could say the same thing about gear. Or abilities. Why use them? Because they're there and I want to use what's at my disposal. I already said I don't care to gimp myself to make artificial challenges.

 

Any more stupid questions?

[MaximusRex]

For those with this attitude, let's hear why? You only want EZ god mode when you play this game?

 

There are options already existing to make it harder, and the reason it's easy too most of the whiners here is they are geared out the wazoo veteran players who know what they are doing. If they make the base game harder, then new under geared players won't be able to play it, and since MMOs are high turnover games they won't be able to keep enough players to maintain it and the game will fail.

 

There is already plenty of Hard content, HM Flashpoints and Operations, as well as PvP.

[Nihilkult]

The Heroic 4's were fun. Why? Because they presented more adversity.They required gathering of a team and team work (You know.... MULTIPLAYER... isn't this an MMO?). Whenever I completed Heroic 4, it felt like an accomplishment. Now, Heroics are the same as everything: Turn your companion to Heal and win.

May I kindly remind you that many people came here because of the kotor side of this game and not the mmo one?

If you want a pure mmo, swtor is certainly not the place to go.

 

To use an example, let's say you want to play a game of [insert your favorite teamsport here]. You show up to find there is absolutely no opposition: there's no opposing team, and thus no way to lose and no challenge. Would that be fun? No, you want challenge. You want that opposing team. Some random guy on the sideline shouts: It's okay, you can manufacture your own challenge by tying all four limbs behind your back and wearing a blindfold! That would still be pretty difficult, even though there's no team. But it wouldn't be fun, because you're just meaninglessly manufacturing difficulty for yourself, rather than having an obstacle or challenge presented to you.

No no NO.

The opposing team is there. Mobs. They're still there. They still hit. What we propose you (and what I do when I feel spicing up things a bit) is giving yourself a handicap. It's not that terrible.

[Khiriath]

I could say the same thing about gear. Or abilities. Why use them? Because they're there and I want to use what's at my disposal. I already said I don't care to gimp myself to make artificial challenges.

 

Any more stupid questions?

 

So you've asked for it to be made harder for everyone so that you are forced to have more of a challenge because you don't want to make an "artificial" challenge.

 

Even if we go with your revised point of view asking for an H2/H4 toggle, that would be an artificial challenge. It is just an illusion of developer intentionality in choice of difficulty.

 

See there are options in game to make those H2s more challenging. You could put away your comps altogether, you could use a rank 1 comp instead of a rank 50 comp. You could create an account that doesn't have all the datacrons and companion stories completed granting an additional 400 points of presence.

 

Sure as an endgame player who has completed all that stuff and gotten comp influence really high, H2s can be quite easy, especially when done with a high rank comp. However, for a new player, not even a casual, but a new player lacking the various legacy perks they are still fairly challenging.

 

Also you may want to take a peek at the gen chat on Odessen where ppl are constatly saying stuff like "OMG how I am supposed to be able to beat the boss in the H2." Even with the buffs and the supposedly OP comps more than a few are having problems.

 

Really if you want challenge I suggest you look to HM/NiM ops or PvP. That is where the challenge if found in this game.

[Uruare]

Uruare, you're so mean, I'm just trying to make a point here and you're not being nice to me!

.

 

Darn right. Your opinion might grant you a sense of catharsis, and that's dandy. If it achieves that, that's probably good - no quarrel with you on that.

 

Never the less, did you actually do heroic 4's?

 

How often?

 

The 61+ rewards for heroics as they are now are clearly intended to be farmed, and since they're bound to legacy, clearly meant to be things we can do on any ol' character of 61+ we like and farm up supplies for a character's alliance, be it one or distributed across many.

 

Does this obvious design intention escape you?

 

I can easily grasp that you want new content, and preferably of a variety that dates your desire to have to group up and try.

 

Nothing wrong with either.

 

And yet, that's still not what's going on here.

 

They didn't remove H4's by accident.

 

They're not going to put them back in like it was some whoops of an oversight that saw them all changed to H2's in the first place.

 

Look at the design. Look at how things are being made to flow now.

 

You're asking for regression. Why?

 

If you want to talk about substance, let's talk about something new that could actually jive with the new foundation they've laid out here.

 

If you want to talk about something useful, let's talk about what could yet be, not what was clearly deemed to be off the table already.

 

You want to have a discussion about things they could do that might actually have more than a doughnut's chance at fat camp, I'd be happy to participate, be useful and not even be a sarcastic bint about anything.

 

But if all you want to do is reach for the failed past, I can't stop you, but I don't have to pretend that it looks like substance or anything but wallbanging.

 

Here's an olive branch.

 

I think something that they could do that would march in perfect step with the this new direction would be, using star fortresses as an example, make tactical flashpoint versions of those heroic 2's.

 

Those are the new H4's, you must realize. All yourself what the actual differences are between a tactical and an H4.

 

Tacticals are instanced, H4's sometimes weren't.

 

Tacticals feature more sophisticated boss fights by far, but still stunt technically require four people all the time, even though it can sometimes really help.

 

They can do more in a flashpoint than in an H4 or in the world, since those exclusive instances don't have any impact on existing mayo zones or areas too.

 

Moreover, tacticals are what they're doing, not heroic 4's, which they blatantly revised and made easily farmable H2's.

 

Work with the design, not against it.

 

I'd you actually want to talk about useful things, let's talk about things that could feasibly work with the design of what is.

 

I can't join to in reaching for yesterday though. It's gone, and its not coming back. They got rid of what they got rid of on purpose.

 

Here another idea - challenge modes and speed run timers. I know WoW has such things, as well as leader boards for people to contest with eachother for places on, and I think that's a good thing.

 

Challenge isn't bad. I'm not here to champion everything being faceroll and auto win.

 

I AM here to say... The standard leveling content is fine as it is. That probably should be the easiest and most undemanding content in the game, as it's both what everyone of even the crappiest skill level has to do, but will be done by many numerous times repeatedly.

 

They have a fun little thing right on the login screen displaying progress towards Legendary Player status, after all. It's clear that they want people to play everything, and not just a little bit.

 

Work WITH that.

 

Idea galore spring to mind as possibilities for things they could do without changing a single thing that is, but just doing more of this, or expanding upon that.

 

In any event, the way forward isn't behind us.

 

Heroic 4's are dust. Glitter in the wind. Say goodbye, they're probably never coming back.

 

We're in a new place now. A place where, if you squint just a little bit, you can see the spirit of Heroic 4's shining away in tacticals.

 

It's s place where screaming about how powerful companions are is completely drowning out all thought and reason that might be applied to what could come to us that would make us NEED those allowed amped companions to be so strong.

 

I see an awful lot if people whining and crying to bring back yesterday.

 

I think they're damned fools. Isn't gonna happen. This is where we are now.

 

Want a better tomorrow?

 

Stop looking in yesterday's garbage. It isn't there.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Uruare

[Mowermanx]

I could say the same thing about gear. Or abilities. Why use them? Because they're there and I want to use what's at my disposal. I already said I don't care to gimp myself to make artificial challenges.

 

Any more stupid questions?

 

Nice slippery slope and deflection happening there, and then an attack at the end for the trifecta.

In other words, you just got owned and have no answer whatsoever to my query, other than "because they're there".

How sad.

[Sardoni]

There are heroic 4's still in game for the macro-binocular and seeker droid missions. No one volunteers to them easily.

 

I'd support making those a weekly. Be nice to give people incentive to help others get it done.

 

So if you want your challenge look no further than Nar Shadda and beg people to let you be taken along. With the downscaling I'm sure they are a real treat.

[skepticck]

nope, It's perfect as it is.

[Altheran]

There are heroic 4's still in game for the macro-binocular and seeker droid missions. No one volunteers to them easily.

Seeker Droid heroic is H4 only by name. It's harder, yes, but it didn't avoid me from completing it solo. With one other player, it is cake.

[Heromofo]

The only way to make them harder is to give them more health and more dps.

Meaning longer fights and more time in between that is not fun.

I would like to see more puzzle and traps in the game put into heriocs

But until then these are the same old heriocs we have been doing for years.

Now we need them for alliance for all characters so we are forced to farm them.

Let them stay like this and hope for trapa and puzzles later.

 

 

Swtor is more about a amazing story just enjoy it.

[Burana]

Please, no.

[Endriss]

I don't see how anyone could be against a few optional +4 outdoor areas for those of us who enjoy adventuring outdoors and being challenged. Raiding gets boring and should not have the monopoly on challenge.

[Mikahrone]

For those with this attitude, let's hear why? You only want EZ god mode when you play this game?

 

Because you can effortlessly make the game as hard as you wont. It functions very simple.

 

OTOH, H4s were removed for a reason. Along with making H2 easier. It was dead content before.

 

And H2s were never hard. H4 were (solo), but many were doable solo on level anyway.

[Mikahrone]

I don't see how anyone could be against a few optional +4 outdoor areas for those of us who enjoy adventuring outdoors and being challenged. Raiding gets boring and should not have the monopoly on challenge.

 

Because those become dead areas. Be grateful you have H2s, many other games just turned everything to solo.

 

And guess what.....you can bring 16 and faceroll everything. Outdoor areas do not scale, so it would be something like aurora cannon. Which was converted to be doable solo now heh

Edited November 6, 2015 by Mikahrone

[Artaniz]

I don't see how anyone could be against a few optional +4 outdoor areas for those of us who enjoy adventuring outdoors and being challenged. Raiding gets boring and should not have the monopoly on challenge.

 

Im against it , and ill tell you why .

 

I pug the heroic 2+ weekly every night on my various toons , you dont need to group but there are serious benefits to doing so not the least of which is the massive credits. I still sometimes cant fill a group for plowing them , even when the fleet has 200 plus people.

 

Now you want to revert some back to 4s why ? they are already a pita to get people to group for . If you want to do them with 4 people you still can , having them scale a few things so you and your friends can enjoy it at the detriment of the rest of the server is uncalled for , which is probably why this change was made in the first place.

 

So now can you see how i am against it ?

[Allamirr]

For the love of all the gods no, no and no!! I love how it is now, Both companions and Heroic2s. Getting 4 people to do Heroic4s was horrible, I still havnt gotten the Macro-binocular Heroic 4 done, no one wants to help on that and you want to bring back all the heroic 4 hells, heh can count me out! I love soloing them as it is now, no groups to worry about, just go in and knock it out for the week. If i want groups ill do Flashpoints or Ops raids, using the Group finder, something Heroics never had to begin with. Heroics should be for soloing or Duoing end of story. Edited November 6, 2015 by Allamirr

[AlrikFassbauer]

Getting 4 people to do Heroic4s was horrible, I still havnt gotten the Macro-binocular Heroic 4 done, no one wants to help on that

 

Well, that particular Heroics quest is rather an exception from the rule.

 

The problem is, I admit, that on higher-level planets it is more difficult to find people for H2 & H4,

but on lower-level planets, it's rather easy. I never had problems there - and Vanjervalis Chain is quite a small server !

 

You all do almost as if Heroics did only exist on high-level to end-level Planets ...

 

 

And again : I'm not against the difficulty levels of them - I'm against removing cutscenes & quest-givers for them !

Edited November 6, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[branmakmuffin]

The Heroic missions are way too easy to solo, seriously. I've done several of them on various planets and there's no challenge with these uber companions. Remember when doing a Heroic 2 solo was actually a challenge? Now they're no more difficult than any mission, it just takes longer to kill the mobs.

Dismiss your companion. "Problem" solved.

[Mikahrone]

I could see people shouting for hours for H2/H4 from Nar Shadda (mainly because of strongholds there)

 

So yeah, maybe on Coruscant/Dromund Kaas it wasnt SUCH a problem, but afterwards. ESPECIALLY bonus series ones (most notable on Tatooine) and on higher levels you could just ignore those quests.

 

You are aware that instanced ones scale to number of players in party? Thats why those are called H2+ (well at least they used to)

 

So yeah, you can STILL have H4, group with 4 and hit instanced one.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Mikahrone

[Falensawino]

Spot on Bevan.

 

Yeah okay guy, that's one toon, now see how many solo weekly heroics you can cram in a week with 22-40 characters.

 

Content was redesigned for players with multiple characters. The game changed, level some alts and adapt.

 

If you want challenge, play challenge type game modes like Warzone, Operations, Galactic Starfighter or Space Missions.

 

Everybody asking to nerf companions is thinking really small and not factoring in the new server limits.

 

Heroic 4 missions were terrible, it meant you had to spam /general chat with LFG or skip the heroic unless you had enough players willing to do them. Why would you ever want to go back to those days?

 

Redesigned for multiple characters eh? You mean that one story we all go through regardless of class or faction? Well at least I'm hearing lots of great things about how different multiple playthroughs can be... oh wait, scratch that one..

 

Going through the KotFE story and grinding out the alliances 20-40 times? That sounds great, have fun with that.

I wasn't even talking about KotFE story. Alliance and companion influence grind are where the hotcakes are right now. Your alts serve as Locked Supply Crate farmers who funnel them to one main character. Alliance rank 20 with for all alliance specialists isn't that hard to do. Some guy on reddit already got 20 x 4 in the first two weeks: http://i.imgur.com/GUZukoO.jpg

 

There are reports of players with more than one Influence rank 50 companion. I wish I could confirm them with picture proof, these players need to start posting images on the forum or reddit.com/r/swtor

 

Here's a list of all the weekly heroics with annotated completion length. If you're smart, you'll play the shortest heroics then log into an alt and repeat the short ones again as time allows for all your 22-40 alts. After level 61 each weekly heroic drops 1 locked supply crate, which can be opened for alliance rank and companion gifts.

www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/3r7kzd/updated_kotfe_heroics_guide/

 

I know sometimes we just want to get things done, but lately I don't care much about how fast I can burn through all the dailies and weeklies. It's not a list of household chores; it's not always about how fast you get to the finish line.

Eat your own words, because conquest is literally a list of chores for guilds to do. And the companion influence grind and companion alerts are a player's personal list of chores to do.

 

Bioware keeps adding more chores and it's beneficial to complete them in as short a time possible. Less time wasted, more rewards. Complete as fast as you can and move on to the next alt for that week's lockout, personal conquest goal, weekly heroic limit.

 

There are no leaderboards or ways to track who has the most influence rank 50 companions or completed 4x20 alliance rank but it's a silent competition and you can fall behind if you don't pick up the pace. Having more level 61+ alts gets you to the finish line faster, it is a race.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Falensawino

[branmakmuffin]

There are no leaderboards or ways to track who has the most influence rank 50 companions or completed 4x20 alliance rank but it's a silent competition and you can fall behind if you don't pick up the pace. Having more level 61+ alts gets you to the finish line faster, it is a race.

How is it a race? How many influence rank 50 companions you have or how many characters you have at influence rank 20 with the alliance "bosses" has no bearing on my game play and is of no interest to me whatsoever.

 

Unless you are being sarcastic.