BioWare: take the feedback for once and increase difficulty going forward

[LordArtemis]

Quite a few questions pressed in there, so Ill try to touch on each one to clarify my meanings.....

 

Hm? What? What do you mean "normal" players?

 

Casual players. They are the new "normal" players. Hardcore players are now the minority in almost every game on the market, generally speaking of course.

 

How do I "make" companions overpowered?

 

By boosting influence to raise their rank and receive the presence boosts.

My influence 5 companions can already beat all solo content without me even pushing a button, and that didn't take "quite a bit of work." To me that's easily overpowered.

 

To me that is the way the game has been since launch. And THAT problem is fixed in a very easy way.

 

.....solo solo content.

I think most people would think that's overpowered.... it's just most people like them being overpowered.

 

No, I think most people would think its normal AND enjoy it...especially if they had never experienced the game with more difficulty.

 

It's not that tiny. It's the minority, yes, but it's not a tiny minority, or even a small minority.

 

I completely disagree.

 

Now, there's limited data on the subject, but everything I've seen from the poll, to percentage of posters on the forum, to my own anecdotal experience in the game and among people I know, I wouldn't be surprised if it's around 20-30%. Of course it probably just looks like I'm pulling that number out of my ***, and to be fair I kind of am, but if we go with what data (limited as it may be) we have, that's roughly accurate. Definitely a minority, but not a "TINY" group of players.

 

I will not argue against your own experience, nor rattle my saber like a fool and claim you are wrong...since there is no definitive way I can do that. I will only say that it is obvious you and I do not agree on this point and leave it at that.

 

Huzzah! Options! Player choice! I would rejoice!

 

I always lean toward options. Always better than forced IMO, for almost anything.

[LordArtemis]

If I do remember correctly there is 2-3 bosses in the old stories where you had to interrupt the boss or eat a huge hit and the Makeb bosses. So you are right my statement is not 100% correct it is 99.999999% correct. You got me.

 

I think it is a bit less than 99.999999....but I will concede that a substantial portion of the game, especially after getting your companion can be played using the standard attack only.

 

A good quarter of the game though would slap you down hard if you did that. In fact, in some areas you would not survive for more than a few seconds.

 

Take on more than 5 or 6 mobs at once, all with aggro on you and see how clicking 1 fares....

 

So, it is most likely that both of us are not exactly accurate....and the truth is likely somewhere in between.

Edited November 4, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Vhaegrant]

That's fine with me most of my post if not all of them actually were not directed towards you. They were directed in general towards the people who create dozens of threads on the same topic nearly everyday while insulting like that poster above me commenting about me. However I won't dignity that insult with a response. I'm simply frustrated by the constant flood of threads about the same topic. When will it stop. How long can they spam the forum with the same topic everyday...nothing is going to change for them. Again this comment not towards Lord. But in general to the community.

 

That's forums for you

Have to admit if the current state of the forums is anything to go by with it's rapid rate of turnover there must have been a significant upsurge in subscribers with 4.0.

 

If you are getting frustrated it's probably better to take a brake. The only thing you have any control over are your own actions, expecting a forum to respond in an ordered and meaningful manner to a post is like herding cats. You have a lot of returning/new players that want to voice their opinion and not want it lost in the body of someone else's thread. Haven't you heard we're all special snowflakes (I know I am I have the title) that deserve our own threads how else can we expect to be taken seriously

[LordArtemis]

Forums can be a rough place...you have to have thick skin, certainly.

 

Especially if you are a dev.

 

But I would say that this is the general discussion area of the SWTOR forums. Good or bad, that means lots and lots of threads discussing the game. That is the nature of a game forum after all.

[RogerApple]

That's forums for you

Have to admit if the current state of the forums is anything to go by with it's rapid rate of turnover there must have been a significant upsurge in subscribers with 4.0.

 

If you are getting frustrated it's probably better to take a brake. The only thing you have any control over are your own actions, expecting a forum to respond in an ordered and meaningful manner to a post is like herding cats. You have a lot of returning/new players that want to voice their opinion and not want it lost in the body of someone else's thread. Haven't you heard we're all special snowflakes (I know I am I have the title) that deserve our own threads how else can we expect to be taken seriously

 

I do take breaks. Several a day. Often I check the forums during the day. It just frustrates me we the players are given all this cool stuff in the expansion. New companion. New chapters. Boosts to make the leveling not such a horrible grind. I remember before the boost taking hours to run on the starting planet. Having to do literally almost every quest and just barely getting to level 10. Now that's fixed.

 

Instead of the community embracing it with arms wide open. They flame it creating dozens of threads. Some have admitted their not interested in peoples response their hope is if they make enough noise and put enough pressure on the community then it will be reversed. That is trying to take advantage of the people. Instead just being grateful for what we currently have. Several of the Pro Nerf crowd insulted me directly with words. However I keep my cool and don't sink down to that level.

 

I just don't get why people want to go back to low exp boost to spend hours running around killing 15th mobs just to level once. It's been three years we finally have the experience boost many wanted a month after this game was released. I am going to take a break from posting here. Sadly when I return tomorrow I will see the same threads popping up instead of discussing future chapter quests. That will be in it's place. Well have a good night.

[ivanhedgehog]

Wut? Are you seriously trying to downplay some one when they want a challenge from a game they play? Also no, alot of people have complained about the lack of difficulty when it comes to this new expansion, stop trying to push it under the rug like it isn't an issue.

 

anyone that wants to create challenge FOR THEMSELVES can easily do it. Their problem is that they cant dictate how everyone else plays. thats why they are crying to ask bw to nerf everyone.

[_NovaBlast_]

spamming the "1" button is not normal, its not even very easy mode. Its stupid mode

 

Again your your opinion....

 

............unless you are so self absorbed you alone deem what is normal in a video game , how they should be and what the proper way and only way to have fun is........which is how you come across not unlike the op and a few other people.

Edited November 4, 2015 by _NovaBlast_

[Ottoattack]

I think it is a bit less than 99.999999....but I will concede that a substantial portion of the game, especially after getting your companion can be played using the standard attack only.

 

A good quarter of the game though would slap you down hard if you did that. In fact, in some areas you would not survive for more than a few seconds.

 

Take on more than 5 or 6 mobs at once, all with aggro on you and see how clicking 1 fares....

 

So, it is most likely that both of us are not exactly accurate....and the truth is likely somewhere in between.

 

Lets say that it is a bit less than 99.99999%. Make it 95%, which its not, but for argument sake will say so. How is that 95% of the game can be played with requiring no input good design?!

 

Now, you take the same player to venture out to lets say FPs, they have no clue what to do, which is something they should have already learned in the first 10-15 levels. SM ops? Forget it. PvP, they will get demolished and cry foul that the PvPers are elitist.

 

The planetary, daily and story content should be challenging enough to teach the player the basics and at the same time have veterans engaged in the game play. This helps:

 

1. New players understand their class so they can easily jump in to harder content.

2. Make content interesting and engaging.

3. Add replayability for veterans.

 

In order for us to get their, the content should be challenging enough to allow the player by the time they reach max level to:

 

1. Understand the game basics.

2. Understand their class basics.

3. Understand interrupts and CC and know how and when to use them.

4. Understand DCDs and know how and when to use them.

 

This is all basic stuff, easy/normal difficulty.

[ivanhedgehog]

How did you manage that?

 

People are reporting that their seven year old grandkids are going through that content by slapping one or two buttons.

 

I went through on a premade without any gear upgrades other than two or three crummy drops and played with my dog while doing it.

 

people lie a lot on the forums too. maybe "lie " is too strong....variable reality based on the point they want to make.

 

everyone doesnt play with legacy 50 all datacrons etc etc. the game is what you make of it. if you want it harder, make it harder. extremely simple.

[Vhaegrant]

I just don't get why people want to go back to low exp boost to spend hours running around killing 15th mobs just to level once.

 

Old school mentality and nostalgia.

That's how it worked in the old days on the first sort of MMOs that were so light on content they disguised it with a lot of grind based mechanics.

There's also a healthy dose of elitism and validation thrown into the mix.

It should be difficult so that some people can not do the content. How can people know they are better at something than others if everyone can do it?

 

Unfortunately the nature of the beast is that those who want the most challenge from the new content (those that have set themselves challenges before, learnt their chosen discipline, geared themselves up) are those that will get the least challenge. A difficulty curve paradox of gaming design :/

Edited November 4, 2015 by Vhaegrant

[LordArtemis]

Lets say that it is a bit less than 99.99999%. Make it 95%, which its not, but for argument sake will say so. How is that 95% of the game can be played with requiring no input good design?!

 

Now, you take the same player to venture out to lets say FPs, they have no clue what to do, which is something they should have already learned in the first 10-15 levels. SM ops? Forget it. PvP, they will get demolished and cry foul that the PvPers are elitist.

 

The planetary, daily and story content should be challenging enough to teach the player the basics and at the same time have veterans engaged in the game play. This helps:

 

1. New players understand their class so they can easily jump in to harder content.

2. Make content interesting and engaging.

3. Add replayability for veterans.

 

In order for us to get their, the content should be challenging enough to allow the player by the time they reach max level to:

 

1. Understand the game basics.

2. Understand their class basics.

3. Understand interrupts and CC and know how and when to use them.

4. Understand DCDs and know how and when to use them.

 

This is all basic stuff, easy/normal difficulty.

 

This was absolutely the case 10 years ago.

 

The market no longer exists for that kind of game. Most (but not all) modern successful MMOs generally support faceroll mode for most of the game....with a few notable exceptions.

 

One can lament the loss of difficulty in MMOs...I do as well. I actually miss the days of open PVP, permadeath and player looting. But those days are long gone.

 

Now, good design is two things IMO....the game must be easy to play in almost every aspect, and it must have alternative gameplay elements....some kind of store, housing, appearance modification, etc.

 

This is an unfortunate side effect of casual player market dominance. And THEY keep the lights on.

 

We either have to adapt to the new paradigm or move on to other more challenging games.

 

Now, all that said, I still think there is a place for some way to determine your own personal difficulty level....there should be the ability to make the game harder if you wish IMO. And there are many ways they could that...I do not think they do enough for the hardcore crowd at present, minority or not.

Edited November 4, 2015 by LordArtemis

[_NovaBlast_]

 

1. New players understand their class so they can easily jump in to harder content.

2. Make content interesting and engaging.

3. Add replayability for veterans.

 

In order for us to get their, the content should be challenging enough to allow the player by the time they reach max level to:

 

1. Understand the game basics.

2. Understand their class basics.

3. Understand interrupts and CC and know how and when to use them.

4. Understand DCDs and know how and when to use them.

 

This is all basic stuff, easy/normal difficulty.

 

Again your telling people how to should play the game ... are you really so blind to your own self absorbsion you truly can not see this ....

 

maybe a different context will help ....

 

you sound like a player on a moba forum ranting about how players should learn the meta , team comps , "bad players " should L2p Know your roles... etc etc and throw temper tantrums when they lose or team comp isn't perfect " becase the only reason to play a moba is to win"

 

When some just like to play their favorite character and have fun DURING the match and realize that it is indeed just a video game and the outcome is not the end of-the world you win some you lose some its not a big deal

 

No one is "forced" to join a random que in any moba if you do you should know y our going to get some of these players that don't take the game as seriously as you would like.

Edited November 4, 2015 by _NovaBlast_

[Swissbob]

Casual players. They are the new "normal" players. Hardcore players are now the minority in almost every game on the market, generally speaking of course.

 

 

I agree I guess that casual players are the new "normal" players, but I guess I disagree that most of them would think that companions aren't overpowered.

 

But neither of us speak for the majority of the casual player base, so discussing it is kind of pointless, I suppose.

 

By boosting influence to raise their rank and receive the presence boosts.

 

Well, yes that makes them more powerful, but if they are already overpowered at baseline influence for me than I'm not making them overpowered, they're innately overpowered.

 

To me that is the way the game has been since launch. And THAT problem is fixed in a very easy way.

 

.....solo solo content.

 

I kind of agree with you about it being too easy at launch, but that doesn't mean it *has* to be that way.

 

As for soloing solo content.... I am. But it isn't a good long term solution. Trying to find ways to artificially manufacture difficulty with no built in incentive in the game (as well as the fact that it doesn't make sense in the immersion department but that part of the game is f*cked anyway) really still puts a damper on any difficulty I'm creating for myself. I mean I could play with a blindfold or an arm tied behind my back but in these ways I'm forcing the game to present some modicum of challenge, rather than the game presenting me with natural challenge (and better yet incentivizing it in addition).

 

All of that might seem weird to you, as it is kind of a psychological thing, but if I have to go around the natural way of the game to invent difficulty for myself, psychologically it isn't satisfying because there's no sense of accomplishment because I'm just giving myself challenge that isn't there naturally. But if I go through the natural way of the game, and there's challenge, then overcoming that challenge *is* satisfying because it's actual adversity presented *to* me, as opposed to *by* me, and if I get extra rewards or incentives from completing that challenge, then that's icing on the cake.

 

EDIT: I want to be forced to use every resource at my disposal to win, not be forced to purposefully limit what resources I get to use just to force a little bit of challenge out of the game.

 

You still might not understand and get that, and that's fine (to each his own after all), but all I'm asking for is again an *option* for increased difficulty (and in the perfect world increased rewards), which shouldn't effect your gameplay at all because, after all, it's an option.

 

No, I think most people would think its normal AND enjoy it...especially if they had never experienced the game with more difficulty.

 

They would enjoy it... I'm not arguing that. And they would think it's "normal" if that's all they've ever known. But that doesn't stop them from acknowledging they're overpowered in the sense they destroy any challenge in the game.

 

I completely disagree.

 

Well.... okay.

 

I will not argue against your own experience, nor rattle my saber like a fool and claim you are wrong...since there is no definitive way I can do that. I will only say that it is obvious you and I do not agree on this point and leave it at that.

 

Neither of us knows for sure. We don't have definitive data. However we do have *some* data, incomplete as it is. Why not use that, as opposed to ignoring it completely and just inventing your own numbers?

 

My claim isn't fully backed by evidence, but it's backed partially by evidence, and that's better than not at all backed by evidence.

 

But okay sure, it doesn't look like I'm going to convince you, so we can leave it at that.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Swissbob

[Ottoattack]

Again your your opinion....

 

............unless you are so self absorbed you alone deem what is normal in a video game , how they should be and what the proper way and only way to have fun is........which is how you come across not unlike the op and a few other people.

 

I am going to keep hitting this again, not because I am picking on you, but because this is important.

 

I will use gun games, cuz I do not know why people relate to them easier. Imagine that all you have to do is hit the left click button on your mouse and the cursor automatically moves and points out on enemies head so you can do head shots. How is that remotely engaging? You as the player have no idea what you are doing and just pressing a button. It may be cool for 5 minutes, but then what?!

 

Same here in SWTOR, pressing "1" button is going to hold the player interest for how long? 5-10 minutes? Then what?

 

Game play should require input from the player that require minimal thinking, and should venture off at higher level to replayability. This is not me being "self absorbed," this is me expecting a video game from me to "play it."

[Vhaegrant]

As for soling solo content.... I am. But it isn't a good long term solution. Trying to find ways to artificially manufacture difficulty with no built in incentive in the game (as well as the fact that it doesn't make sense in the immersion department but that part of the game is f*cked anyway) really still puts a damper on any difficulty I'm creating for myself. I mean I could play with a blindfold or an arm tied behind my back but in these ways I'm forcing the game to present some modicum of challenge, rather than the game presenting me with natural challenge (and better yet incentivizing it in addition).

 

All of that might seem weird to you, as it is kind of a psychological thing, but if I have to go around the natural way of the game to invent difficulty for myself, psychologically it isn't satisfying because there's no sense of accomplishment because I'm just giving myself challenge that isn't there naturally. But if I go through the natural way of the game, and there's challenge, then overcoming that challenge *is* satisfying because it's actual adversity presented *to* me, as opposed to *by* me, and if I get extra rewards or incentives from completing that challenge, then that's icing on the cake.

 

You still might not understand and get that, and that's fine (to each his own after all), but all I'm asking for is again an *option* for increased difficulty (and in the perfect world increased rewards), which shouldn't effect your gameplay at all because, after all, it's an option.

When I play a game for a challenging experience I want the difficulty to challenge me to build the best character I can. I want to tweak every last ounce out of the gear and rotation. That isn't a mindset that sits well with game difficulty aimed at a mass market :/

The sort of challenges I find myself trying these days are speed runs. I have no desire to gimp my character and companion, but it is interesting to see how fast I can do something. It will get done (we've established there's no real difficulty) but there is a vast difference between completing a H2 in 30mins or 20 mins.

 

I think a decent challenge for solo gamers would be a new game mode that uses a 'wave' mechanic. Wave after wave of incoming mobs attack with no respite and you see how far you can survive. Seem to be plenty of themed opportunities for such gameplay from Rakghoul outbreaks, droid factories, Jedi training hall. Fight until fail, and then boast about the wave you managed to get to

[LordArtemis]

I agree I guess that casual players are the new "normal" players, but I guess I disagree that most of them would think that companions aren't overpowered.

 

Fair enough.

 

Well, yes that makes them more powerful, but if they are already overpowered at baseline influence for me than I'm not making them overpowered, they're innately overpowered.

 

...as they have been since launch. They were designed that way unfortunately (or not, depending on your perspective).

 

I kind of agree with you about it being too easy at launch, but that doesn't mean it has to be that way.

 

Ok. I can't argue against the idea that it doesn't have to be that way...but I would argue that the current market SUPPORTS it being that way.

You still might not understand and get that, and that's fine (to each his own after all), but all I'm asking for is again an *option* for increased difficulty (and in the perfect world increased rewards), which shouldn't effect your gameplay at all because, after all, it's an option.

 

You and I DO agree on this point. Options are always good, and options should exist, IMO, for hardcore players, minority or not. They are still the most loyal players.

 

They would enjoy it... I'm not arguing that. And they would think it's "normal" if that's all they've ever known. But that doesn't stop them from acknowledging they're overpowered in the sense they destroy any challenge in the game.

 

Well, frankly I contend this modern MMO market knows nothing of challenging gameplay.

 

Neither of us knows for sure. We don't have definitive data. However we do have *some* data, incomplete as it is. Why not use that, as opposed to ignoring it completely and just inventing your own numbers?

 

I am using that, and have even posted it in this very forum....at least the studies I could post without subscription. If you look at my post history you can find the game research.

 

Bioware has spoken very little about the makeup of this game, but it is likely it is similar to if not exactly like other modern MMOs, and in that respect studies suggest my conclusions....and my experiences confirm this conclusion.

 

Your experiences say otherwise of course.....and there we are.

 

My claim isn't fully backed by evidence, but it's backed partially by evidence, and that's better than not at all backed by evidence.

 

So is mine. That is why we will likely not agree on this issue. Nor do we have to...since the size of the hardcore base is not really the issue, as the market is CLEARLY casual regardless. That much is indisputable.

 

Not to mention the fact that we agree a difficulty option would likely be prudent and well received.

Edited November 4, 2015 by LordArtemis

[cagthehack]

Old school mentality and nostalgia.

That's how it worked in the old days on the first sort of MMOs that were so light on content they disguised it with a lot of grind based mechanics.

There's also a healthy dose of elitism and validation thrown into the mix.

It should be difficult so that some people can not do the content. How can people know they are better at something than others if everyone can do it?

 

Unfortunately the nature of the beast is that those who want the most challenge from the new content (those that have set themselves challenges before, learnt their chosen discipline, geared themselves up) are those that will get the least challenge. A difficulty curve paradox of gaming design :/

 

In case you haven't noticed, this is a game. Not RL. A game. You know, fun. Now personally, I wish this game , like most SP games, had a difficulty setting so everyone could stop ************. But it doesn't. And Bioware wants to pull in the solo and casual players. Cause that's where the money is. You aren't gonna do that by making this game difficult.

 

Sure, build in tiers, and add something to shoot for, make the player feel good. And keep the raids (ops) because some players want that. Reward the "raider" better gear than the casual. Most casuals won't care as long as long as they have a fighting chance.

 

But making the leveling process more difficult will do nothing except lead more players to WOW, GW2 and FF.

 

I think what BW has done now is brilliant. Finally, the game can be played by someone who has a busy life. A casual player who logs maybe a couple of times a week. Will they be wearing the best gear? No. But they will be able to progress? Yes. And that's the important part.

[Ottoattack]

Again your telling people how to should play the game ... are you really so blind to your own self absorbsion you truly can not see this ....

 

maybe a different context will help ....

 

you sound like a player on a moba forum ranting about how players should learn the meta , team comps , "bad players " should L2p Know your roles... etc etc and throw temper tantrums when they lose or team comp isn't perfect " becase the only reason to play a moba is to win"

 

When some just like to play their favorite character and have fun DURING the match and realize that it is indeed just a video game and the outcome is not the end of-the world you win some you lose some its not a big deal

 

No one is "forced" to join a random que if you do you should know y our going to get some of these players that don't take the game as seriously as you would like..

 

This is getting down right silly and you keep mention things I did not claim. Where did I say meta, comps, etc.. Where is "outcome" and all this baloney coming from?! Did I ever mention "competition?!"

 

I actually have a question for you. How is understanding the game basic mechanics is not considered "normal?!" What is normal then

[Swissbob]

I am going to keep hitting this again, not because I am picking on you, but because this is important.

 

I will use gun games, cuz I do not know why people relate to them easier. Imagine that all you have to do is hit the left click button on your mouse and the cursor automatically moves and points out on enemies head so you can do head shots. How is that remotely engaging? You as the player have no idea what you are doing and just pressing a button. It may be cool for 5 minutes, but then what?!

 

Same here in SWTOR, pressing "1" button is going to hold the player interest for how long? 5-10 minutes? Then what?

 

Game play should require input from the player that require minimal thinking, and should venture off at higher level to replayability. This is not me being "self absorbed," this is me expecting a video game from me to "play it."

 

I totally agree with everything you say here, but you're missing one crucial element.

 

People really do like things that easy. I know.... it might seem baffling (it is to me).... but they like it. Casuals are the majority.

 

People like pressing 1 and watching their characters win everything instantly. I can't explain it, but everything I've seen in-game, on the forums, in the polls.... etc. points me to the conclusion that these people are the majority.

 

People are happy the way it is. I can't explain it, but there it is.

 

Game play should require input from the player that require minimal thinking, and should venture off at higher level to replayability.

 

You'd think. But as it turns out... no. People don't want to do any thinking whatsoever.

[Megamaid]

How did you manage that?

 

People are reporting that their seven year old grandkids are going through that content by slapping one or two buttons.

 

I went through on a premade without any gear upgrades other than two or three crummy drops and played with my dog while doing it.

 

I died once but that was in a fight where you don't have your companion, the mobs bugged and i couldn't do any damage but they could damage me, i basically had to sit there until i died to restart the fight. Of course this was because of a bug. Other than that you are correct, you have to try and die right now.

[Vhaegrant]

In case you haven't noticed, this is a game. Not RL. A game. You know, fun. Now personally, I wish this game , like most SP games, had a difficulty setting so everyone could stop ************. But it doesn't. And Bioware wants to pull in the solo and casual players. Cause that's where the money is. You aren't gonna do that by making this game difficult.

 

Sure, build in tiers, and add something to shoot for, make the player feel good. And keep the raids (ops) because some players want that. Reward the "raider" better gear than the casual. Most casuals won't care as long as long as they have a fighting chance.

 

But making the leveling process more difficult will do nothing except lead more players to WOW, GW2 and FF.

 

I think what BW has done now is brilliant. Finally, the game can be played by someone who has a busy life. A casual player who logs maybe a couple of times a week. Will they be wearing the best gear? No. But they will be able to progress? Yes. And that's the important part.

Um I was responding to someone who was asking what kind of player wants Old MMO grind mechanics back.

That was my opinion of the mindset of those players from personal encounters and anecdotes.

[_NovaBlast_]

This is getting down right silly and you keep mention things I did not claim. Where did I say meta, comps, etc.. Where is "outcome" and all this baloney coming from?! Did I ever mention "competition?!"

 

I never said you claimed anything ... you are simply misinterpreting my response if you look closely i did mention i was takeing this out of context in the hopes a different comparison would help you see my point.

 

.......but that failed and went very far above your head.

 

So for this matter i am going to just say we can agree to disagree on this point.

 

I actually have a question for you. How is understanding the game basic mechanics is not considered "normal?!" What is normal then

 

Fun is subjective. How can you have "normal" on a subjective topic? Again to use a different example what is a normal pizza? Stop tryingto find "normal" based on your personal beliefs

Edited November 4, 2015 by _NovaBlast_

[ivanhedgehog]

When I play a game for a challenging experience I want the difficulty to challenge me to build the best character I can. I want to tweak every last ounce out of the gear and rotation. That isn't a mindset that sits well with game difficulty aimed at a mass market :/

The sort of challenges I find myself trying these days are speed runs. I have no desire to gimp my character and companion, but it is interesting to see how fast I can do something. It will get done (we've established there's no real difficulty) but there is a vast difference between completing a H2 in 30mins or 20 mins.

 

I think a decent challenge for solo gamers would be a new game mode that uses a 'wave' mechanic. Wave after wave of incoming mobs attack with no respite and you see how far you can survive. Seem to be plenty of themed opportunities for such gameplay from Rakghoul outbreaks, droid factories, Jedi training hall. Fight until fail, and then boast about the wave you managed to get to

 

city of heroes had tech that allowed you to set missions fro -1 of your level all the way up to +4 of your level. and spawn enemies for 1 player all the way up to 8 players. you could make it easy or you could up the difficulty in increments all the way to +4 levels x 8 players. this was done at least 6 years ago.

[Swissbob]

...as they have been since launch. They were designed that way unfortunately (or not, depending on your perspective).

 

I suppose, but this just takes it further down the rabbit hole. And while before if I had my companions out and fighting I could still die if I didn't do anything (challenge is present in the sense that I need to do *something* to win), now they can beat the game totally independent of my own action, which is just a step too far in my eyes.

 

Before there was the illusion of difficulty, even if it wasn't actually difficult. Now.... even that illusion is gone.

 

 

Ok. I can't argue against the idea that it doesn't have to be that way...but I would argue that the current market SUPPORTS it being that way.

 

Well, yeah. If it's either easy or hard, then Bioware should make it easy, as that's what the majority of the wallets want. And we're in agreement that instituting a choice between them would be good, so, moving on....

 

 

Well, frankly I contend this modern MMO market knows nothing of challenging gameplay.

 

Yeah, you're right there.

 

I am using that, and have even posted it in this very forum....at least the studies I could post without subscription. If you look at my post history you can find the game research.

 

Bioware has spoken very little about the makeup of this game, but it is likely it is similar to if not exactly like other modern MMOs, and in that respect studies suggest my conclusions....and my experiences confirm this conclusion.

 

Your experiences say otherwise of course.....and there we are.

 

Would you be willing to link me the studies/research? I'm all for data and research and thus very curious but your post history is massive and not knowing where to go to look it would take me a lot longer than you to dig it up.

 

After all, if you're right and I'm wrong, I would definitely want to know.... Cause I'd need to go to a lot of different threads and recant.

 

 

So is mine. That is why we will likely not agree on this issue. Nor do we have to...since the size of the hardcore base is not really the issue, as the market is CLEARLY casual regardless. That much is indisputable.

 

Well yes the market is casual. But the size of the hardcore base is important. If it's say, 1%, then a minority that small hardly merits Bioware devoting time money and effort to accommodate them. But if it's 35% ? That's a very substantial size of their profits, and would demand changes to accommodate them, even if they're still technically a minority.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Swissbob

[ValkyrStudios]

I'm okay with unchallenging combat, as long as the mechanics are good. What I'm not okay with is nuisance combat.

 

Case in Point: I'm going through Chapter III, and I have to run to the Emergency Lift. Every few steps, two normal-rank mobs spawn in, slowing my progress because they disengage my sprint and I have to kill them. It isn't challenging, and it's also annoying.

 

Getting to the encounter to defeat the Protocol Skytroopers. Again, not very challenging. However, there's about maybe twenty of them, and the game only activates them two or three at a time. Why? Activate them all at once. They're cleave fodder anyway and curb-stomping twenty mobs at once is at least fun for a spectacle.

 

I get why unchallenging gameplay annoys people. Because then the combat becomes a chore and infinitely more tedious. It's like fighting a Raid Boss that has no mechanics, but has no much health he takes 15 minutes to kill. It's just boring. Nuisance fights are never fun, regardless of the difficulty.