Would you PvP if Expertise was removed?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

GSF for me is more of a control issue. trying to play GSF with a KB/Mouse is just painful so I'd rather be able to use my gamepad for GSF.

 

Isn't there a gear issue in GSF too I recall reading? Basically until you get to the point you have the best "gear" unlocked it's pointless playing and just expect to die a lot? After that it becomes functional again?

 

I remember reading this anyway, it may have changed.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Bolster was BW's solution to this. At level 65, there is really not a big difference in performance between somebody in 190 PVE gear vs somebody in full exemplar. It pretty much is skill vs skill already. BW would read this and go "isn't this what we already gave them?"

 

My only issue with bolster is that it is overly complicated and has some strange quirks that are not obvious to newer players (e.g. wear 190 pve gear, not 216). Otherwise, I'm cool with the way it is. The idea of removing expertise - that's not the problem at all. I pvp all the time in sucky gear on alts, and do plenty well enough to derive significant enjoyment. If you don't like warzones with the way they are now, you simply don't like SWTOR pvp.

 

I think that many of y'all need to actually look at the numbers that bolster is giving you and realize that maybe it's not as bad as you thought. This thread has pages of opinion based on imagination and damaged ego; not facts, not experience.

 

But I'm in pretty decent PVE gear, I can't be assed changing my gear at all. People can call it lazy all they like too but if that's a general perception by a majority of non PVP players then you have realised a barrier to growing PVP.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I'm trying to say that bolster already does this, within a few %. With 190 PVE gear, you get 1936 expertise out of a maximum of 2018. That's about 96% of the cap. So you may be disadvantaged by a few percent.

 

I may be wrong here but doesn't expertise just enhance stats? So sure that's a 4% gap but then there is a natural gap in the stats themselves between the gear sets? I.e. you might be getting ( hypothetical numbers here ) an extra 4% applied to your 2000 whilst the lower doesn't get the 4% to their 1800 ...

 

If that's the case expertise isn't the only problem as people have been trying to point out in this topic, it's any sort of gearing that seperates player A from player B stat wise.

 

The reason why BW has refused to do away with gear in pvp altogether is because they want a sense of progression. Yes, BW has specifically said this in yellow posts in the past (I don't feel like digging this up - you'll either have to go search yourself or trust me...or not, whatever). What we have now is a watered down progression. Yes, better pvp gear will give you better performance, but only slightly. It's the political solution that is palatable to everyone, yet not ideal for anyone.

 

Well BW are wrong basically. The most successful PVP games around don't use gear to reward/give a sense of progression yet this one does and this game is having issues with making PVP popular.

 

If gear wasn't a thing what effect would that on ranked when it's purely skill vs skill, progression based on getting better skill wise and thus getting better rewards etc.?

 

I find it funny that one of the complaints you don't hear about with PVP in this game very often is ping because that's the least of peoples worries when in most other PVP games it's #1.

 

One issue with just giving everybody the same exact stats is that it kills optimization. What if you want more crit than power, a little more or less alacrity? What if you think accuracy is overrated in pvp and you'd rather allocate those points towards crit / power / mainstat / endurance? What if you are a sniper who wants to play arenas, but you feel the need to load up a little bit more on endurance for survivability? Forcing everybody to the exact same stats would take this away.

 

People have been playing that way for years now and clearly it's not working to boost PVP popularity, it's drive people away if anything. Here is a topic with many people stating they don't care about any of that.

Put us on a level playing field and let our skill do the talking, not how we decide to min/max the stats the best as you allude to there.

 

Sure there is still the issue of class balance but many games suffer that fate and at least if gear isn't there it makes balancing a much easier task for Devs to work on and test through before releasing class updates.

 

"Let's get rid of expertise" is a simplistic answer to a complex problem, and it shows a lack of understanding of what bolster is currently doing

 

Thinking that changing bolster is the be all and end all solution to the PVP popularity issues is where the lack of understanding as to what those issues are it would seem.

[Tsillah]

Expertise is the MMO form of natural selection..

 

I thought that was player skill....silly me.

 

But there is a difference between natural selection and last man standing still.

 

Personally it's hilarious that PvP'ers complain that BW isn't giving much love to PvP, while at the same time PvP'ers themselves do everything possible to make sure as few people as possible play PvP in the end. The irony is there.

[teclado]

But I'm in pretty decent PVE gear, I can't be assed changing my gear at all. People can call it lazy all they like too but if that's a general perception by a majority of non PVP players then you have realised a barrier to growing PVP.

Absolutely. I'm saying that BW needs to fix the upper end of the bolster curve. Or, if the general perception of high end PVE gear bolstering poorly is actually wrong for some technical reason(s) (maybe the high amounts of mastery / power / crit / endurance does fairly compensate for a lack of expertise) - come out and prove it. The typical silence is quite maddening.

[Katahn]

While I do appreciate the desire of some people to find more optimal mixes of stats to eek out improvements in performance, and I certainly can accept that many people enjoy doing this... I do not. The impact of gear disparities and the fact that whatever the stats were they utterly overshadowed skill/teamwork is what drove me away from PvP.

 

I want good, balanced fights. Equal numbers and power on both sides. Let the win or loss be determined by the whims of the RNG and the comparative collective skill of both sides. Getting rid of expertise would help. Normalizing all power levels would be better.

 

But this is just me. Like I said before I don't mind losing a good fight where I felt like I had a chance. But put me in a situation where it is a roflstomp and it isn't fun. I don't care if I am doing the stomping or being stomped - neither is fun or enjoyable. So at this point minus a major overhaul of the PvP system in SWTOR I don't see me participating in it again minus picking up some companions I want for PvE purposes.

[Atalantia]

[quote=teclado;8587157

One issue with just giving everybody the same exact stats is that it kills optimization. What if you want more crit than power, a little more or less alacrity? What if you think accuracy is overrated in pvp and you'd rather allocate those points towards crit / power / mainstat / endurance? What if you are a sniper who wants to play arenas, but you feel the need to load up a little bit more on endurance for survivability? Forcing everybody to the exact same stats would take this away.

 

.

This is the part I wanted to respond to:

 

So what if they did like GW2 and gave you 3 different sets one with more crit less End one with More power less crit

one with more Alt less.mainstat

 

or whatever set it in an area like GW2 were you go put the gear one maybe have a pvp locker there for you to store it all the earpieces relics implants and say now have at it

 

would not that be a better solution that "ah Ok let me go get my "X" gear so I can pvp be right back"

[teclado]

I may be wrong here but doesn't expertise just enhance stats? So sure that's a 4% gap but then there is a natural gap in the stats themselves between the gear sets? I.e. you might be getting ( hypothetical numbers here ) an extra 4% applied to your 2000 whilst the lower doesn't get the 4% to their 1800 ...

Expertise grants up to a 60% pvp damage increase, 35% pvp healing increase, and 37.5% pvp damage reduction. Mastery, crit, endurance are all separate stats. So, I guess mathematically it would be like a coefficient to whatever your hit / heal / damage taken would be without any expertise. So if your base weapon damage is 2000, your base hit would be 3200 with 2018 expertise on your basic melee attack, for example - this would be on a player with zero expertise. Against a player with the 37.5% damage reduction, that hit would be right back to 2000 (2k + 2k * 0.6 = 3200; 3200 - 3200 * 0.375 = 2k). So if you have full expertise and the same mainstat, crit, power, accuracy, defense, shield, absorb as an opponent, your hits on each other would be the same (ignoring defensive cooldowns, shield chance, and crit RNG).

 

If gear wasn't a thing what effect would that on ranked when it's purely skill vs skill, progression based on getting better skill wise and thus getting better rewards etc.?

Well, ranked currently requires 2018 expertise in order to queue for it. With the massive gear cost reduction in 3.3, it's not much of a barrier to entry. I think that ranked is not very popular because a lot of people don't like arenas, some classes are not balanced with arenas in mind, and the general atmosphere in ranked is not at all casual - which most players are.

People have been playing that way for years now and clearly it's not working to boost PVP popularity, it's drive people away if anything. Here is a topic with many people stating they don't care about any of that.

Put us on a level playing field and let our skill do the talking, not how we decide to min/max the stats the best as you allude to there.

But stat optimization is skill, just a different kind. You have to spend some time learning about what all these stats mean, how certain ones are more advantageous for certain classes than others, and how to optimize your stats for your class and your playstyle in order to get your character to perform at as high of a level as you can reach.

Edited November 3, 2015 by teclado

[ScarletBlaze]

Who here thinks that the guy with the hard-working and accomplished spouse missed the hint that someone might just appreciate those 20 warzones magically be played as she is relaxing? (Sigh) My husband saw straight through my cunning plan when I said: "Dear, say what, do you want to see the KotFE content? 'Cause I have that Guardian, and it is a really good story! And you don't even need to fight really.... Won't it be it such fun for you?"

 

I don't even need to hint to my boyfriend. We always group up and play together with all the missions, even our class and planetary missions. We just had to figure out how to group in this story but thanks to some friends we figured out. The reason we play this game is to play together.

Edited November 3, 2015 by ScarletBlaze

[kifa]

Yes. Expertise ruined pvp for me, and I haven't touched it since it was introduced.

[dacentabaal]

Fully Ranked geared up and I still say yes, I would PvP to my hearts content if Expertise was removed

[Lucyfer_Infinity]

YES

I used to pvp ocasionaly (few times a day, or sometimes even whole day if i was in the mood) before pvp gear was introduced, would love to have that option back.

[cach-x]

I honestly wouldn't mind gathering and optimizing gear for PVP purposes. (Although the expertise system could use improvements, the difference it makes is way too dramatic imho)

 

As someone who spent quite some time on WoW PVP (even if I was never too good at it) back in the day, the reason I don't PVP is mostly of the "social" variety. (note that my perceptions may be completely wrong).

 

- It seems that a single guy on PVP has a lot more responsibility on his shoulders and that pressure makes it difficult to even start playing.

- There are not really big massive battlegrounds were you can just blend in with the crowd and learn stuff by observation (I miss Alterac valley, lol)

- Server populations are low, and the PVP Community seems really really small, which also make it seem like they would be hostile to newcomers that don't play so good.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Expertise grants up to a 60% pvp damage increase, 35% pvp healing increase, and 37.5% pvp damage reduction. Mastery, crit, endurance are all separate stats. So, I guess mathematically it would be like a coefficient to whatever your hit / heal / damage taken would be without any expertise. So if your base weapon damage is 2000, your base hit would be 3200 with 2018 expertise on your basic melee attack, for example - this would be on a player with zero expertise. Against a player with the 37.5% damage reduction, that hit would be right back to 2000 (2k + 2k * 0.6 = 3200; 3200 - 3200 * 0.375 = 2k). So if you have full expertise and the same mainstat, crit, power, accuracy, defense, shield, absorb as an opponent, your hits on each other would be the same (ignoring defensive cooldowns, shield chance, and crit RNG).

 

That's just it, you won't have the same "other" stats as someone else is higher tier gear and thus they are still ideally advantaged even before expertise kicks in.

 

 

Well, ranked currently requires 2018 expertise in order to queue for it. With the massive gear cost reduction in 3.3, it's not much of a barrier to entry. I think that ranked is not very popular because a lot of people don't like arenas, some classes are not balanced with arenas in mind, and the general atmosphere in ranked is not at all casual - which most players are.

 

Ranked Warzones, more to strive for in terms of progression if gear wasn't a thing.

Casuals don't need to care about ranked or progression, just keep giving out comms, achievements etc, and having decent interesting things people can buy with said comms so there is a carrot there still beyond gear.

 

 

But stat optimization is skill, just a different kind.

 

One most people it would seem aren't interested in working on with PVP

 

You have to spend some time learning about what all these stats mean, how certain ones are more advantageous for certain classes than others, and how to optimize your stats for your class and your playstyle in order to get your character to perform at as high of a level as you can reach

 

You've just outlined a main reason why many people are against PVP basically.

 

Heck compromise, introduce a new PVP mode - casual mode. Everyone of any level bolstered to the same stats ( based around class ) and have at it. People who don't like it still have ranked/unranked as we currently know them.

 

Casual mode lets people still eanr gear to go into the other 2 modes. If in ay ears time casual mode is doing well and unranked/ranked have died off even more then delete unranked as we know it, delete PVP gear and have ranked the ranked version of the previous casual mode.

 

Problem solved.

[Bachannal]

Isn't there a gear issue in GSF too I recall reading? Basically until you get to the point you have the best "gear" unlocked it's pointless playing and just expect to die a lot? After that it becomes functional again?

 

I remember reading this anyway, it may have changed.

 

 

Not at all the case. Sure, maxing out your ship gives you SOME advantage (as well it should), but it does not make up for skills on the stick. I for one prefer my KB/Mouse....been out of console playing so long that using controllers always feels weird to me.

[Max_Killjoy]

Non-PVPers don't avoid PVP because of gear issues, they avoid PVP because they're afraid. Gearing is irrelevant.

 

"Do you even PvP, bro?"

 

That attitude from a disproportionate and loud segment of the PvP players is the real reason many players avoid PvP.

 

 

I disagree. Expertise presents a hurdle to trying it and Expertise also presents a massive disadvantage if you don't have it. There's NOTHING positive for PvP, that comes from Expertise. It does nothing but turn away new players.

 

Plus the fact that just not enjoying something, and being afraid of it, are two entirely different things.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[denpic]

If expertise was removed They would have to give pvpers top tier raid gear for pvp gear Otherwise the best gear would only be available to raiders which would put people who Only play for pvp at a disadvantage.

[Aricus]

I would still pvp. But I like how GW2 did their pvp all stats are equal but players still have the option to choose their stats/gear and build. No need to grinding valor or pvp comms just to get gear in order to be competitive in pvp.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Not at all the case. Sure, maxing out your ship gives you SOME advantage (as well it should), but it does not make up for skills on the stick. I for one prefer my KB/Mouse....been out of console playing so long that using controllers always feels weird to me.

 

And ping?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

If expertise was removed They would have to give pvpers top tier raid gear for pvp gear Otherwise the best gear would only be available to raiders which would put people who Only play for pvp at a disadvantage.

 

I think the topic needs a rewrite - "Would you PVP if gear no longer matter in PVP?" - expertise is only a small portion of the problem and is also muddying the waters because current PVP players are then rightfully thinking top end PVE gear would be better for PVP ( which it would if the "fix" was ONLY removing expertise ).

[Bachannal]

And ping?

 

 

I would imagine having a crap ping would be a problem - if that is indeed what you were getting at.

[Willy_Beamish]

All PVP that you que for, players should have equal stats across the board. Make it more about skill and less about stats.

[lpsmash]

Yes, as long as I didn't have to do nightmare mode to have the best gear (i.e. everyone's stat would be egalitarian, à-la guild wars 2) Edited November 4, 2015 by lpsmash

[NeroTethras]

Only if PvP comms could be used to purchase gear with stats equal to that of PvE gear. Why should the time PvErs spend with their preferred gameplay net them rewards that help them at that gameplay, but PvPers shouldn't?

 

They cheapened the base gear, and as long as you have the right stats and augments in it you can still do well in PvP. Anyone who complains about expertise being unfair just doesn't want to invest time into PvP to get better and improve their gear.

[cagthehack]

If expertise was removed They would have to give pvpers top tier raid gear for pvp gear .

 

I don't know why games don't do this? Let PVP be an end game experience. Reward the best gear depending on rank that is on par with the same level raid gear. I mean, why add a special stat? Forcing players to wast more time to collect it. Unless that is the point - more time. Right now, getting PVP gear is just like getting raid gear - it's a damn grind.

 

Let the player choose: raiding or pvp or both. Interchangeable gear. It would bring in more raiders and more pvpers. And really, BW doesn't care what you do, as long as you pay.