lavatsunami Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I really don't feel like it, but I'll test this right now. Lol, ok. I wasn't implying that you should drop everything and test it right now. I can certainly do it when I get home. Thanks though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 Just tested it right now, on stream, main stat relic does NOT affect surge. I'll post a highlight shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavatsunami Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Just tested it right now, on stream, main stat relic does NOT affect surge. I'll post a highlight shortly. Huh, that's so weird. So your crit goes up, but surge just sits there? Wonder if that's a bug. The reason I say this is because with more mastery, your crit goes up and so does your surge. I noticed that swapping gear pieces out. So for a relic that increases mastery not doing the same, that's kind of strange. Edited October 29, 2015 by lavatsunami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 http://www.twitch.tv/kreea/v/23053334 When mainstat relic procs, I gain 1.3% crit chance, thats it. I gain 0 surge. Main stat crit chance is NOT affected by critical rating DR. Hopefully that settles this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diachi Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) But I am sure that 880 mastery gives 7% crit rate whereas 505 crit only gives 5% crit rate, and without the increase in attack damage that you get from the Mastery relic along with the crit. That's the math I used to come to my conclusion that the Mastery relic beats the crit relic. Your math is kinda wrong. here is a simple curve for mastery v. crit chance You would only be right if the relics proc 3002 mastery, sure*. But they do not. 880 Mastery could maximally* give 2.37% crit chance Mastery (mainstat) only affects your crit chance, not your crit rating. Therefore, it does not apply to surge. *Note: All of this doesn't imply that you already have Mastery (which you do) so therefore the crit increases are going to be marginally smaller. EDIT: If you do want to factor in Mastery, lets assume you have 4382 Mastery (what I have on my Operative in non ranked PvP gear). It comes out to 9.335% crit chance from Mastery. Now lets add in the relic proc which is to you 880 Mastery with a ~20% uptime. You crit chance is now 10.6%. A difference of 1.265%. No where near the 7% you suggested. To achieve the 7% increase you suggested (16.335% [or 16.34% rounded] from the base 9.335%). You would need 11,827 Mastery. A relic proc of 7445 Mastery (which they don't exist yet [soon™]). I hope I at least put some more insight into how these calculations work. To leave it in your own words: I encourage you to visit the nearest targetting dummy to confirm. -Te'fia Edited October 29, 2015 by Diachi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Your math is kinda wrong. here is a simple curve for mastery v. crit chance You would only be right if the relics proc 3002 mastery, sure*. But they do not. 880 Mastery could maximally* give 2.37% crit chance Mastery (mainstat) only affects your crit chance, not your crit rating. Therefore, it does not apply to surge. *Note: All of this doesn't imply that you already have Mastery (which you do) so therefore the crit increases are going to be marginally smaller. EDIT: If you do want to factor in Mastery, lets assume you have 4382 Mastery (what I have on my Operative in non ranked PvP gear). It comes out to 9.335% crit chance from Mastery. Now lets add in the relic proc which is to you 880 Mastery with a ~20% uptime. You crit chance is now 10.6%. A difference of 1.265%. No where near the 7% you suggested. To achieve the 7% increase you suggested (16.335% [or 16.34% rounded] from the base 9.335%). You would need 11,827 Mastery. A relic proc of 7445 Mastery (which they don't exist yet [soon™]). I hope I at least put some more insight into how these calculations work. To leave it in your own words: -Te'fia No math allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaredLoch Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Has anyone done any testing for a Vig Guard? I know this isn't a burst spec but I would like some input from some highly knowledgable players. I think after reading all this that mastery and power relics and full Crit augs would be best for a Focus Guard. But it seems like there's more complexity involved in a Vig Guard like actually having alacrity or accuracy etc.. I'm not very familiar with the Advance Classes people are naming since they're all Imp classes. But like I said any help on a Vig Guard would be highly appreciated. I've been doing some testing too, just not legitimate mainly just trial and error in wariness :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaredLoch Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Warzones*** not wariness lol stupid autocorrect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Apparently the right answer is "power augments" but I'm going to tell you, the DPS differential is so small that it comes down to: Do you want to do 1% more damage and dps, or.. Do you want to crit 7% more of the time. It's personal preference really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diachi Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 No math allowed. Suanshu jiushi nan. XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Suanshu jiushi nan. XD I agree, nerf Destroyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakisback Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Oh, I thought he was asking whether or not the crit chance increase from mastery contributed to the surge increase for autocrits. I haven't seen or tested whether or not it's just your crit rating % that gets added, or your whole crit chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavatsunami Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Oh, I thought he was asking whether or not the crit chance increase from mastery contributed to the surge increase for autocrits. I haven't seen or tested whether or not it's just your crit rating % that gets added, or your whole crit chance. yes, that's what I was asking. I was asking if the crit chance increase from mastery affects surge as well. Several people have now pointed out that only crit rating increases surge, so the answer is no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakisback Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 yes, that's what I was asking. I was asking if the crit chance increase from mastery affects surge as well. Several people have now pointed out that only crit rating increases surge, so the answer is no. You're not getting it. I'm talking specifically about autocrits, for which it was thought that your entire crit chance (including base, companion buff, smuggler/agent buff, crit from mastery, crit from crit, and crit % increases from spec) would be added to your surge %. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 You're not getting it. I'm talking specifically about autocrits, for which it was thought that your entire crit chance (including base, companion buff, smuggler/agent buff, crit from mastery, crit from crit, and crit % increases from spec) would be added to your surge %. Mastery crit chance is applied to surge during an auto crit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 You're not getting it. I'm talking specifically about autocrits, for which it was thought that your entire crit chance (including base, companion buff, smuggler/agent buff, crit from mastery, crit from crit, and crit % increases from spec) would be added to your surge %. Actually, it's any modified critical chance that exceeds 100% will have the excess above 100% added to surge. Auto crits just add 100% to crit chance so therefore shift the entire base crit chance to surge. So for example if you run 40% crit chance, have a proc or procs that give 75% crit chance buff, then 15% will be added to surge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakisback Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Actually, it's any modified critical chance that exceeds 100% will have the excess above 100% added to surge. Auto crits just add 100% to crit chance so therefore shift the entire base crit chance to surge. So for example if you run 40% crit chance, have a proc or procs that give 75% crit chance buff, then 15% will be added to surge. Ok, but what proc does that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakisback Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Mastery crit chance is applied to surge during an auto crit Cool, you know this for a fact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakisback Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) Ok so I went pretty tryhard for this one. I precisely worked out all the numbers for both concentrated slice/furious strike, and focused/raging burst. I assumed power augs, full crit for your tertiary stat slots, and your power relic procced. The numbers shown reflect the average ability damage (there's always variance of course). Concentration/Fury- Concentrated Slice/Furious Strike: (3.00(1.05)(3038+0.2(1.05)(882 mastery?))+750)(1.51+.10+2(.30(1-(1-(0.01/0.3))^(((1370+(554 crit?))/65)/0.8)))+.11+.20(1-(1-(0.01/0.2))^(((4622+1.05(882 mastery?))/60)/5.5))) = mastery proc: 23877, crit proc: 23233 Concentration/Fury- Focused/Raging Burst: (2.29(1.05)(2600+0.2(1.05)(882 mastery?))+1028)(1.51+.10+.15+2(.30(1-(1-(0.01/0.3))^(((1370+(554 crit?))/65)/0.8)))+.11+.20(1-(1-(0.01/0.2))^(((4622+1.05(882 mastery?))/60)/5.5))) = mastery proc: 18076, crit proc: 17481 If you were to gear for crit augments instead, bonus damage would become more valuable and surge % would become less valuable, so the outcome of mastery relic > crit relic would be the same. This outcome is also the same if the other relic (power) is not procced, as this condition lowers the bonus damage, thus valuing additions to that factor of the damage formula more. This is both a weapon damage and a force/tech damage ability giving this result. I doubt that the outcome would be different for autocrits on different classes. Now that I know with certainty that power + mastery relic will always be best no matter what, I will now check if swapping out any/all of your power augs with crit augs will yield a more potent autocrit. Edited after finding a few mistakes. The numbers now reflect an even wider gap between the two relics. Edited November 1, 2015 by Kakisback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diachi Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Cool, you know this for a fact? Critical Chance = Crit Rating % + Mastery % Auto Crit = Critical Chance (%) + Surge (%) As for the whole relic situation I did more equation solving and here's the results (I'm lazy, so here's a picture): Crit + Mastery Power It concludes that for relics: Mastery > Power > Crit for Autocrit every 1 min Power > Mastery > Crit for standard crits Then doing 100 abilities with 100% uptime it comes out to: [Crit Chance*(Damage*(1+surge))] + [(100-Crit chance)*(Damage)] Crit: (35*8570)+(65*5000)=624950 Mastery: (33*8682)+(67*5177)=633365 Power: (32*8756)+(68*5203)=633036 The variation between Master and Power being .5% difference. This concludes that for relics, you want Power and Mastery. -Te'fia NOTE: If there are any mistakes, please point them out. I did this at 7am in the morning and I woke up at 9am the previous day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veronyka Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Ok, for all you mercs out there, this by no means scientific, but, while sporting mastery augs, I was regularly putting out 900k damage in regs. Since changing to power augs I am regularly putting out 1m plus. Yet to change all of my enhancements to power, but power/crit seems the way to go. I know other variables are involved such as quality of opponents etc, but they were just as good/bad before on the whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 Ok, for all you mercs out there, this by no means scientific, but, while sporting mastery augs, I was regularly putting out 900k damage in regs. Since changing to power augs I am regularly putting out 1m plus. Yet to change all of my enhancements to power, but power/crit seems the way to go. I know other variables are involved such as quality of opponents etc, but they were just as good/bad before on the whole. All enhancements have power, unless you were running with tank enhancements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 Critical Chance = Crit Rating % + Mastery % Auto Crit = Critical Chance (%) + Surge (%) As for the whole relic situation I did more equation solving and here's the results (I'm lazy, so here's a picture): Crit + Mastery Power It concludes that for relics: Mastery > Power > Crit for Autocrit every 1 min Power > Mastery > Crit for standard crits Then doing 100 abilities with 100% uptime it comes out to: [Crit Chance*(Damage*(1+surge))] + [(100-Crit chance)*(Damage)] Crit: (35*8570)+(65*5000)=624950 Mastery: (33*8682)+(67*5177)=633365 Power: (32*8756)+(68*5203)=633036 The variation between Master and Power being .5% difference. This concludes that for relics, you want Power and Mastery. -Te'fia NOTE: If there are any mistakes, please point them out. I did this at 7am in the morning and I woke up at 9am the previous day. Ok so I went pretty tryhard for this one. I precisely worked out all the numbers for both concentrated slice/furious strike, and focused/raging burst. I assumed power augs, full crit for your tertiary stat slots, and your power relic procced. The numbers shown reflect the average ability damage (there's always variance of course). Concentration/Fury- Concentrated Slice/Furious Strike: (3.00(1.05)(3038+0.2(882 mastery?))+750)(1.51+.10+2(.30(1-(1-(0.01/0.3))^(((1370+(554 crit?))/65)/0.8)))+.11+.20(1-(1-(0.01/0.2))^(((4844+1.05(882 mastery?))/60)/5.5))) = mastery proc: 23848, crit proc: 23267 Concentration/Fury- Focused/Raging Burst: (2.29(1.05)(2600+0.2(882 mastery?))+1028)(1.51+.10+.15+2(.30(1-(1-(0.01/0.3))^(((1370+(554 crit?))/65)/0.8)))+.11+.20(1-(1-(0.01/0.2))^(((4844+1.05(882 mastery?))/60)/5.5))) = mastery proc: 18049, crit proc: 17505 If you were to gear for crit augments instead, bonus damage would become more valuable and surge % would become less valuable, so the outcome of mastery relic > crit relic would be the same. This outcome is also the same if the other relic (power) is not procced, as this condition lowers the bonus damage, thus valuing additions to that factor of the damage formula more. This is both a weapon damage and a force/tech damage ability giving this result. I doubt that the outcome would be different for autocrits on different classes. Now that I know with certainty that power + mastery relic will always be best no matter what, I will now check if swapping out any/all of your power augs with crit augs will yield a more potent autocrit. Thanks for the math behind your conclusions. Going to amend the OP with this, if you all don't mind, of course. Lastly, as far as seeing how many power/critical augments you should have, please do test this haha. Someone in the sin/shadow sub forum asked me to do this and I simply do not have that much time on my hands, to calculate for 14 different augments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lalainnia Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Does alacrity affect all the relics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 Does alacrity affect all the relics? Alacrity does affect the internal cooldown of Relic procs, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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