Elemutation Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 If you think about it, the Grand Champion really did more than the others did during their class stories. I'm not saying that they're the most powerful, but they made the most progress, mainly against the republic. Wrath killed a bunch of Jedi, sure, but it was really all collateral from power-plays and infighting. Nox is probably next, because while it did do basically everything in the name of personal game, Nox did (inadvertently) play a pretty big part in winning at Corellia, and has one of the best naval forces in the empire, even though he just lets it either collect dust or leave it in Marr's hands. Cipher 9 did some pretty spectacular stuff to give the Empire some nice advantages, but by the time their story ends, it kinda meant diddly squat, because the Empire was still loosing. The Grand Champion, however, not only took out a Jedi as a "day on the job" activity, but also freed up the Mandalorians so they could help the Empire. They then subdued an entire crisis on Balmorra for the Empire, won over Voss, AND took out a prominent Jedi master, as well as the supreme chancellor, all while securing the batllefields on Corellia. It just seems like the one PC who is the most "Lone Wolf without a side," is the one helping the Empire more than the two most renowned Sith alive at the time, or the uber-patriotic agent who looks out for the Empire above all else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 If you think about it, the Grand Champion really did more than the others did during their class stories. I'm not saying that they're the most powerful, but they made the most progress, mainly against the republic. Wrath killed a bunch of Jedi, sure, but it was really all collateral from power-plays and infighting. Nox is probably next, because while it did do basically everything in the name of personal game, Nox did (inadvertently) play a pretty big part in winning at Corellia, and has one of the best naval forces in the empire, even though he just lets it either collect dust or leave it in Marr's hands. Cipher 9 did some pretty spectacular stuff to give the Empire some nice advantages, but by the time their story ends, it kinda meant diddly squat, because the Empire was still loosing. The Grand Champion, however, not only took out a Jedi as a "day on the job" activity, but also freed up the Mandalorians so they could help the Empire. They then subdued an entire crisis on Balmorra for the Empire, won over Voss, AND took out a prominent Jedi master, as well as the supreme chancellor, all while securing the batllefields on Corellia. It just seems like the one PC who is the most "Lone Wolf without a side," is the one helping the Empire more than the two most renowned Sith alive at the time, or the uber-patriotic agent who looks out for the Empire above all else. Yes but in the end the republic re-took Balmorra and won corellia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Can't speak to the Agent story as I haven't done it yet - but in terms of the two Sith stories I think it's important to ask: "what are this character's goals?". For most Sith, personal power is the goal, more than any patriotic duty to the Empire. "Ask not, 'what can I do for my Empire', ask instead 'what can my Empire do for me?'" A successful, victorious Empire is certainly good for the Sith characters - much more so than a defeated one - but making sure they are personally at the top of the food chain within the Empire is also important, or else what's the point? In that regard, I'd say the Sith characters wound up pretty darn 'successful' as well. And if you play more Light Side, which usually translates into Sith who are more patriotic and concerned with helping the Empire as a whole... well I'd say that those characters would see the self-serving or rigidly archaic Sith they focused on taking out as to be as much a threat to the overall well-being of the Empire as the Republic is - a rot from within, that could do just as much damage as the enemy from without. Edited October 12, 2015 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachimthbear Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Due to revelations in the Agent story, any gains that any class helped the Empire to make on Corellia are essentially meaningless. The Empire never stood a chance of winning that battle and it only served to galvanise the Republic's opposition. Getting rid of Janarus achieved nothing - now the Empire is up against a much more aggressive Chancellor with a perceived mandate to avenge an incredible series of crimes (the murder of Berooken and possibly of Janarus, the destruction of the rebuilding work on Taris, and her own past as as slave, to name a few). The Agent was the one to achieve the most by making the Empire aware of their imminent defeat and prompting a withdrawal before it was too late. Edited October 12, 2015 by Joachimthbear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Due to revelations in the Agent story, any gains that any class helped the Empire to make on Corellia are essentially meaningless. The Empire never stood a chance of winning that battle and it only served to galvanise the Republic's opposition. Getting rid of Janarus achieved nothing - now the Empire is up against a much more aggressive Chancellor with a perceived mandate to avenge an incredible series of crimes (the murder of Berooken and possibly of Janarus, the destruction of the rebuilding work on Taris, and her own past as as slave, to name a few). The Agent was the one to achieve the most by making the Empire aware of their imminent defeat and prompting a withdrawal before it was too late. Everything the Agent did was for the Empire. Bounty Hunter, did what? Played a game, then went out for revenge against the one who sought revenge for the Bounty Hunter killing people for sport. Then to redeem themselves from a bit of bad press, they took down the chancellor. I'd agree with you and say Agent did the most for the Empire and got screwed over for it at every turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimmerstil Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Are you sure that is all class story and not a mix with planetary missions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachimthbear Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Are you sure that is all class story and not a mix with planetary missions? I think it might indeed be a mix. If I remember correctly, the Bounty Hunter missions on Balmorra consist of you sabotaging the Imperial forces to make one of their colonels look bad, then murdering a highly valuable Imperial admiral. Not that helpful in keeping the planet under control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 If you think about it, the Grand Champion really did more than the others did during their class stories. I'm not saying that they're the most powerful, but they made the most progress, mainly against the republic. Wrath killed a bunch of Jedi, sure, but it was really all collateral from power-plays and infighting. Nox is probably next, because while it did do basically everything in the name of personal game, Nox did (inadvertently) play a pretty big part in winning at Corellia, and has one of the best naval forces in the empire, even though he just lets it either collect dust or leave it in Marr's hands. Cipher 9 did some pretty spectacular stuff to give the Empire some nice advantages, but by the time their story ends, it kinda meant diddly squat, because the Empire was still loosing. The Grand Champion, however, not only took out a Jedi as a "day on the job" activity, but also freed up the Mandalorians so they could help the Empire. They then subdued an entire crisis on Balmorra for the Empire, won over Voss, AND took out a prominent Jedi master, as well as the supreme chancellor, all while securing the batllefields on Corellia. It just seems like the one PC who is the most "Lone Wolf without a side," is the one helping the Empire more than the two most renowned Sith alive at the time, or the uber-patriotic agent who looks out for the Empire above all else. 1. Class-Wise, Nox aided in Corellia's destruction because the Dark council for some reason never told him/her and Thanaton to stop wasting and destroying the Imperial resources on Correlia. 2. The Wrath killed Jedi Masters, took one of their most valuable weapons (Jaesa could of done a lot of damage on the Republic side with being able to identify spies) and took out some of the republics most valued Generals. 3. The Bounty Hunter never 'freed' the Mandalorians, he just either became one or didn't 4. On Balmorra, class wise, he makes things worse. He's killing high ranking officials of the Empire, sabotauging the war effort on Balmorra and you know that Bug problem the bonus series covers? Yeah, i'm pretty sure that is the BH fault. (Though I actually can't confirm that) 5. Uh, when did the BH win over the Voss? The consular was the closest to winning them over before the whole Ilium thing. 6. The agent took down the organisation that has been manipulating this war since day one 7. ''Cipher 9 did some pretty spectacular stuff to give the Empire some nice advantages, but by the time their story ends, it kinda meant diddly squat, because the Empire was still loosing'' So that applies to the Agent, but somhow doesn't apply to the BH? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Thanaton was part of the Dark Council and relied on ancient tradition that some/most didn't care for, but enough did or were on friendly terms with Thanaton enough (the only Sith that look to be on any sort of real friend terms is Marr and the Inquisitor) to allow him his tradition, but not enough to really care after his defeat. I wouldn't put any of the blame on Nox. Nox really had no choice in the matter, and gets Moffs on her side, because they want to see stupid Sith like Thanaton setting the Empire back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tashia Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 if you played the BH light side .... they sided with the Republic in the end --- and won the battle for them -- true they were kind of blackmailed ( to get off that 10m credit bounty ) but what else do you expect a BH to do ? self serving and really not on either side --- so really, in that case, not so much help for either side; except maybe the republic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Thanaton was part of the Dark Council and relied on ancient tradition that some/most didn't care for, but enough did or were on friendly terms with Thanaton enough (the only Sith that look to be on any sort of real friend terms is Marr and the Inquisitor) to allow him his tradition, but not enough to really care after his defeat. I wouldn't put any of the blame on Nox. Nox really had no choice in the matter, and gets Moffs on her side, because they want to see stupid Sith like Thanaton setting the Empire back. Nox could of told Thanaton ''No, let's do this on a planet we're not currently at war with'' and any Sith and imperial with a brain would agree, but then again, we're talking about Darth *******-brigade Nox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Nox could of told Thanaton ''No, let's do this on a planet we're not currently at war with'' and any Sith and imperial with a brain would agree, but then again, we're talking about Darth *******-brigade Nox. Not really. Thanaton initiated the contest. He picked the spot. Imperius could have said "What about here instead." but that only works if Thanaton said okay to it, and Thanaton wanted a big public show. Not to mention, Thanaton was never listening to Imperius. You tell him you she's alive, he doesn't listen. You tell him she tried to kill you, you says, yup, Sith way of life. Imperius really had no way out of it or way to change it, and didn't even know anything about it until after it had started. What did Imperius know? If she said no to it, she was more likely to be killed than before, as more sith would be after her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimmerstil Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Nox could of told Thanaton ''No, let's do this on a planet we're not currently at war with'' and any Sith and imperial with a brain would agree, but then again, we're talking about Darth *******-brigade Nox. As challenger Thanaton picked the place, Lord Kallig (before she becam Darth Imperius) had nothing to say about it - at least I am fairly certain that option did not come up. Also, note that Lord Kallig during her stay on Correllia actually managed to establish the Empire's rule over the planet, if only for a brief time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachimthbear Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 As challenger Thanaton picked the place, Lord Kallig (before she becam Darth Imperius) had nothing to say about it - at least I am fairly certain that option did not come up. That is certainly how it's initially presented; the challenger sets the terms and the scope of the Kaggath. What strikes me as a little bizarre is that Thanaton himself is the only person on the Dark Council who takes the Kaggath seriously, and he - Thanaton, the ultra-traditionalist - shows no respect for the whole process himself when he runs away from Corellia. If only someone had explained to the Inquisitor that he/she could have just ignored the challenge, it doesn't seem like anyone would really have cared one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 That is certainly how it's initially presented; the challenger sets the terms and the scope of the Kaggath. What strikes me as a little bizarre is that Thanaton himself is the only person on the Dark Council who takes the Kaggath seriously, and he - Thanaton, the ultra-traditionalist - shows no respect for the whole process himself when he runs away from Corellia. If only someone had explained to the Inquisitor that he/she could have just ignored the challenge, it doesn't seem like anyone would really have cared one way or another. Dark Council didn't care. Not all important Sith are on the Council. Though everyone would have likely cared if Imperius backed out of it. "The contest is stupid, but you lost, so now I have to kill you." kinda of deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Not really. Thanaton initiated the contest. He picked the spot. Imperius could have said "What about here instead." but that only works if Thanaton said okay to it, and Thanaton wanted a big public show. Not to mention, Thanaton was never listening to Imperius. You tell him you she's alive, he doesn't listen. You tell him she tried to kill you, you says, yup, Sith way of life. Imperius really had no way out of it or way to change it, and didn't even know anything about it until after it had started. What did Imperius know? If she said no to it, she was more likely to be killed than before, as more sith would be after her. Hm, I guess yiou have a point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 As challenger Thanaton picked the place, Lord Kallig (before she becam Darth Imperius) had nothing to say about it - at least I am fairly certain that option did not come up. Also, note that Lord Kallig during her stay on Correllia actually managed to establish the Empire's rule over the planet, if only for a brief time. When did Lord Kallig establish the Empire's rule over the planet Class-wise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenesi Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 When did Lord Kallig establish the Empire's rule over the planet Class-wise? Class-wise it was BH doing. Both sith just run around killing other imperials, and agent is actually responsible for Empire's defeat on Corellia - forging documents about imp's numbers and making Cabal to bring in even more republic reinforcements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Class-wise it was BH doing. Both sith just run around killing other imperials, and agent is actually responsible for Empire's defeat on Corellia - forging documents about imp's numbers and making Cabal to bring in even more republic reinforcements Well, the Warrior gets options to help the war effort on the planet. And wasn't it the Star Cabal's fault for the Empire's lost, not the agent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimmerstil Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 When did Lord Kallig establish the Empire's rule over the planet Class-wise? I wasn't restricting anything to class story, merely stating that they had time to take Corellia while chasing Thanaton in order to refute the idea that Kallig's presence on Corellia would have hindered the Empire's efforts. If you want to isolate class missions, that's fine, but then Kallig's actions had no effect on Corellia at all. Anyway, it was Thanaton who choose Correllia, not Kallig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I wasn't restricting anything to class story, merely stating that they had time to take Corellia while chasing Thanaton in order to refute the idea that Kallig's presence on Corellia would have hindered the Empire's efforts. If you want to isolate class missions, that's fine, but then Kallig's actions had no effect on Corellia at all. Anyway, it was Thanaton who choose Correllia, not Kallig. We should blame it on the dark council who did nothin to prevent it. I mean, yo'd think that Decimus would at least be a little ticked off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrutchCricket Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) agent is actually responsible for Empire's defeat on Corellia - forging documents about imp's numbers and making Cabal to bring in even more republic reinforcements Err... no. The Star Cabal arranged for both Republic and Empire forces to be equal and thus wipe each other out. They fudged the numbers so the Imperials thought they had the advantage when they clearly didn't. Moff Zamar was sent by the Dark Council to independently assess the situation and his report told the truth- that the Empire was in a terrible position and about to suffer massive losses. The agent can ensure that Zamar safely delivers the report (and I'm not sure if Keeper forwards the copy you receive regardless). Then the agent bluffs (under torture) that the Empire will send reinforcements, prompting the Star Cabal into action which exposes their base, allowing the agent and the remnant of Intelligence to neutralize them once and for all. Without the agent the Empire's (and the Republic's, really) losses would've been catastrophic. So really, the agent did the most for the war, despite Sith idiocy and the larger conspiracy at play. Edited October 15, 2015 by CrutchCricket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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