An optional level sync I could live with

[xxIncubixx]

THERE ISN'T ONE. Congratulations, you've graduated to understanding the problem fully. My gameplay experience has no relation to yours. You can choose to sync if you want, I shouldn't have to. And there's no point in syncing AT ALL for those of us who would prefer not to. There's no greater rewards (to us) for doing it, and there's no reason why we should have to do something unnecessarily annoying or painful without getting some benefit of it.

 

Doing a group mission at-level gives me no more credits than I'm already getting, and no better gear than I already have. There's NOTHING in it for us. And yet, pro-sync players try to force us into it anyways.

 

thats... not going to happen ever in any game, period.

Edited October 11, 2015 by xxIncubixx

[Max_Killjoy]

It's not a 100% correct, but I suppose that because people consider 4.0 a done deal, they might think based on your comments, that you disliking SWTOR (or hating it since people like to dramatise) is not so farfetched. They are at worst about a week early.

 

Your assumption that future content will likely never come and is a fanciful hope is just you being a buzz kill, I mean killjoy. It's the old glass that's either half empty or half full discussion. It's only fanciful to someone who prefers to see the glass as half empty. Nothing more.

 

You use a lot of adjectives actually that are just assumptions. So if you feel that these assumptions can be seen as facts, one has to wonder about your objectivity.

 

See the difference:

 

Honest opinion: I feel x because of y.

Factual misrepresentation: This is x because I know it is.

 

If you don't like the changes and you have your reasons for it, that's fine. But when you are making general judgments based on feelings or opinions then it goes the wrong way.

 

So no, you don't hate the game as it is, but you do seem to hate what the game is turning into. But let's assume it's everything you fear...you will hate the game then and since what's coming is coming in just over a week...you will hate it very soon. Can you blame people for skipping over that week? It's done, we just haven't downloaded the patch yet.

 

Thank you for being civil.

[annabethchase]

Right now, I'm waiting for Oricon to load so I can get in one more solo run of the Weekly there.

 

We will still be able to easily do a solo run of the weekly there. I did it the week it was released in basic comm gear. Now, we'll have more abilities, stronger companions and stronger heroic moments to get us through it easier than it was on day 1.

[Max_Killjoy]

We will still be able to easily do a solo run of the weekly there. I did it the week it was released in basic comm gear. Now, we'll have more abilities, stronger companions and stronger heroic moments to get us through it easier than it was on day 1.

 

Including the H2+, particularly the Commanders? Reliably soloable, at level 55, in level 55 gear?

 

Also, we don't know that the companions will be stronger, since they're being de-geared and made cookie-cutter -- we have no idea what Bioware will consider "level appropriate".

Edited October 11, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[IanArgent]

Including the H2+, particularly the Commanders? Reliably soloable, at level 55?

 

Also, we don't know that the companions will be stronger, since they're being de-geared and made cookie-cutter -- we have no idea what Bioware will consider "level appropriate".

 

A Gunslinger/Sniper is going to have it tough, I think; being both fragile and lacking team heals. A Tank (or DPS who off-tanks) with a heal comp, or a DPS who off-heals and a tank comp should be able to handle it. Might need some grenades for the big mobs.

[annabethchase]

Including the H2+, particularly the Commanders? Reliably soloable, at level 55, in level 55 gear?

 

Also, we don't know that the companions will be stronger, since they're being de-geared and made cookie-cutter -- we have no idea what Bioware will consider "level appropriate".

 

Yes, reliably and easily. If it took me more than 1 death to do a weekly there I was shocked. And yes, if I have no fear of dying while wearing basic comms gear, I don't feel it's tuned correctly. Basic comms are something all players have sufficient access to now.

 

I never geared my companions up much beyond green gear unless they happened to share my main stat. Then they got "hand me downs" from my character. I expect to blow by that by the time I max affection. I could be wrong though about this part.

[curulz]

In 3.0 I was in guilds who literally had gear inspection lineups to decide who got to raid that day. Needless to say, the non-exploiters were typically not able to get in and got further and further behind until Ziost came around and gear became plentiful again. But by then, the raiding guilds were largely dying out again from boredom.

 

I pin the reason for the boredom on everyone who exploited. The gear was obtained too easily and too quickly and therefore they were done with the content too early.

 

I don't agree with this theory. If anything the newer ops were over tuned a bit. So casual raiders, mild progression guilds and pug groups were hurt by it. Getting stuck on bosses caused frustrations. I don't believe it had anything to do with getting gear from exploiting, at least in my experience

[Juromaro]

You're picking the guy who's mostly making valid points to attack? C'mon

 

 

His points always come back to one thing: Forcing people to play a certain way. All his "points" have been refuted with one simple sentence: "You can still do all that with level sync.".....But that's not the answer he wants, the answer he wants is "Yes mandatory is stupid it should be optional."

 

Besides you disagree with him and you make your "points" and he claims them invalid then calls you a fanboi/white knight. Even if you made points as to why mandatory makes sense he can't and won't ever agree, yet expects you to agree with him....just as you did.

 

Max and a few other of the non-mandatory crowd are trying to fight drowning by swimming deeper into the water. Level sync is happening, and from what I've read from them they are expecting Bioware to cave and make it optional within 6 months, and they'll scream at it until they do.

[Max_Killjoy]

Yes, reliably and easily. If it took me more than 1 death to do a weekly there I was shocked. And yes, if I have no fear of dying while wearing basic comms gear, I don't feel it's tuned correctly. Basic comms are something all players have sufficient access to now.

 

I never geared my companions up much beyond green gear unless they happened to share my main stat. Then they got "hand me downs" from my character. I expect to blow by that by the time I max affection. I could be wrong though about this part.

 

I think we're working with two different definitions of "reliably and easily". I don't consider it "reliably and easily" until the risk of PC death is negligible. That 1 death, is 1 death too many.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Max_Killjoy]

His points always come back to one thing: Forcing people to play a certain way. All his "points" have been refuted with one simple sentence: "You can still do all that with level sync.".....But that's not the answer he wants, the answer he wants is "Yes mandatory is stupid it should be optional."

 

Besides you disagree with him and you make your "points" and he claims them invalid then calls you a fanboi/white knight. Even if you made points as to why mandatory makes sense he can't and won't ever agree, yet expects you to agree with him....just as you did..

 

Sorry, when did I call Ian a "fanboi/white knight"? I know someone has called someone else that in this discussion more than once, and it's hard to keep track at this point, but... yeah.

 

The "rebuttal" of the objections I've listed on the grounds of "you can still do that with levelsync" amounts to a fundamental misunderstanding of the objections.

 

For example, when I say that levelsync will turn certain Kingpin missions into tedious slogs, it's not that the trash mobs will suddenly become impossible or any kind of challenge at all to kill that's at issue. It's that the mobs will need to be engaged and cleared at all. Right now, the trash mobs on the drive-path to and around the probe-launch points on Tatooine, DK, etc, will ignore you unless you walk right over them. With levelsync, those mobs will no longer be gray, they'll regain their agro radius, and you'll have to stop and fight them. It's not "too hard", it's not "a challenge", it's just a sloggy, tedious nuisance.

 

And yes, most of them can be evaded while on a speeder -- but having to drive in a big weaving pattern around a bunch of trash is also sloggy, tedious nuisance.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Ratajack]

1) I've actually listed changes I was in favor of a couple times, but like your fellows, you consistently ignore actual posts in favor of your chosen narrative. Included were things like opening all flight paths on original worlds automatically; unlocking most of the QT terminals on planets once you'd discovered the general area; the reduction in cooldown for QT, fleet pass, personal starship QT, etc; and Strongholds as high-utility hubs for players. And there are other things I haven't minded, or that I've actually liked, that I don't bother posting "hey this is awesome!" about, because it's just bootlicking and a waste of space.

 

 

I'm not surprised that everything you list that you supported can be boiled down to "I want to log in and have everything I want NOW. I want to play the game WITHOUT ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME."

 

 

 

I think we're working with two different definitions of "reliably and easily". I don't consider it "reliably and easily" until the risk of PC death is negligible.

 

IMO, this is just more evidence that leads me to believe that if anything requires even remotely requires any effort, it's too much for you.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Sorry, when did I call Ian a "fanboi/white knight"? I know someone has called someone else that in this discussion more than once, and it's hard to keep track at this point, but... yeah.

 

The "rebuttal" of the objections I've listed on the grounds of "you can still do that with levelsync" amounts to a fundamental misunderstanding of the objections.

 

For example, when I say that levelsync will turn certain Kingpin missions into tedious slogs, it's not that the trash mobs will suddenly become impossible or any kind of challenge at all to kill that's at issue. It's that the mobs will need to be engaged and cleared at all. Right now, the trash mobs on the drive-path to and around the probe-launch points on Tatooine, DK, etc, will ignore you unless you walk right over them. With levelsync, those mobs will no longer be gray, they'll regain their agro radius, and you'll have to stop and fight them. It's not "too hard", it's not "a challenge", it's just a sloggy, tedious nuisance.

 

Lol! You don't have to stop at all, with proper speeder driving you can zoom right past them and continue on your merry way. You don't have to fight anything you don't want to that isn't required.

[Reno_Tarshil]

I'm not surprised that everything you list that you supported can be boiled down to "I want to log in and have everything I want NOW. I want to play the game WITHOUT ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME."

 

IMO, this is just more evidence that leads me to believe that if anything requires even remotely requires any effort, it's too much for you.

 

Watch out, he's gonna ignore you for calling him lazy.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm not surprised that everything you list that you supported can be boiled down to "I want to log in and have everything I want NOW. I want to play the game WITHOUT ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME."

 

 

IMO, this is just more evidence that leads me to believe that if anything requires even remotely requires any effort, it's too much for you.

 

So... you have nothing except ad hom and non sequitur?

 

*plonk*

Edited October 12, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[IanArgent]

I think we're working with two different definitions of "reliably and easily". I don't consider it "reliably and easily" until the risk of PC death is negligible. That 1 death, is 1 death too many.

 

Soloing heroic 2+ should, IMO, fall under the rubric of "any one you walk away from." But we disagree on the validity of being able to do group-tagged content as a solo with reliability and ease.

 

That having been said, the only reason I don't think any class shouldn't be capable of soloing the Oricon H2+ under level sync is because of a very bad design decision at launch, that means that Gunslighers and Sentinels (and the Imp equivalent) cannot fill out a tactical trinity with a companion. The other 6 ACs can all at least make a go at whatever their off-role is, and with a companion check the boxes (barely, in some case, admittedly). But the sentinel and gunslinger are DPS, .DPS, and ... DPS, so they get boned. Treek papered this over, but probably no longer.

 

(I'm not going to say it's impossible, the 5 extra levels of powers and power advancement may help, but it will always be a harder row to hoe than for, say, a Guardian or Sawbones)

[IanArgent]

Followup - I can eat a death a week through blind idiocy or lag at the wrong time. For that heroic, I'll call 1 death a week to be the cost of doing business. Particularly with a bad respawn timer on the big mobs when fighting one of the elites.

[Bakakiba]

Watch out, he's gonna ignore you for calling him lazy.

 

Nailed it!

[annabethchase]

I don't agree with this theory. If anything the newer ops were over tuned a bit. So casual raiders, mild progression guilds and pug groups were hurt by it. Getting stuck on bosses caused frustrations. I don't believe it had anything to do with getting gear from exploiting, at least in my experience

 

I agree with this as well. I really do.

 

But what I'm also saying is that so many people skipped SM entirely through the exploit, that there were far less good players in the SM hunt at all. In 1.0 and 2.0, many guilds would run story mode all the time to get gear even after they were well into HM as well. But this time, those players weren't willing to run it for no reward so the average SM team was generally pretty weak.

[annabethchase]

I think we're working with two different definitions of "reliably and easily". I don't consider it "reliably and easily" until the risk of PC death is negligible. That 1 death, is 1 death too many.

 

agreed, different definition. different ideas of what's fun.

 

Oddly enough, if I die more than once in a whole SM ops I get mad. I don't mind occasional deaths in solo play because I know that it was my fault. But I can't stand the 15 minutes wasted on a typical wipe in a raid.

[Sarfux]

Sorry, when did I call Ian a "fanboi/white knight"? I know someone has called someone else that in this discussion more than once, and it's hard to keep track at this point, but... yeah.

 

The "rebuttal" of the objections I've listed on the grounds of "you can still do that with levelsync" amounts to a fundamental misunderstanding of the objections.

 

For example, when I say that levelsync will turn certain Kingpin missions into tedious slogs, it's not that the trash mobs will suddenly become impossible or any kind of challenge at all to kill that's at issue. It's that the mobs will need to be engaged and cleared at all. Right now, the trash mobs on the drive-path to and around the probe-launch points on Tatooine, DK, etc, will ignore you unless you walk right over them. With levelsync, those mobs will no longer be gray, they'll regain their agro radius, and you'll have to stop and fight them. It's not "too hard", it's not "a challenge", it's just a sloggy, tedious nuisance.

 

Hey hey now, watch it now Max. I'm the defender, white knight, fan boy. And proud of it!

[sentientomega]

We will still be able to easily do a solo run of the weekly there. I did it the week it was released in basic comm gear. Now, we'll have more abilities, stronger companions and stronger heroic moments to get us through it easier than it was on day 1.

 

Yes, reliably and easily. If it took me more than 1 death to do a weekly there I was shocked. And yes, if I have no fear of dying while wearing basic comms gear, I don't feel it's tuned correctly. Basic comms are something all players have sufficient access to now.

 

I never geared my companions up much beyond green gear unless they happened to share my main stat. Then they got "hand me downs" from my character. I expect to blow by that by the time I max affection. I could be wrong though about this part.

 

Well, bully for you.

 

But I cannot hope to EVER imagine gaining your level of tall-buildings-leapt-in-single-bounds skill, are you so utterly blind and insulated that you cannot possibly IMAGINE that anyone just might find it harder than you do?

 

I have no trouble imagining how elites feel about difficulty, so why are you so utterly closed-minded about how everyone else who has ZERO hope of reaching your skill level, does?

 

For me, soloing that heroic with FULL 186 purples, AT 60, for character AND companion, was a *********** tortuous nightmare; I shudder to think what it will be if we're crush-synced to 55.

 

I'm happy with the idea of a mandatory sync, whether I'll continue to be happy after I've seen how Oricon and other planets sync us down, remains to be seen. If i cannot do the weekly without being defeated even ONCE, it's not worth it.

 

agreed, different definition. different ideas of what's fun.

 

Oddly enough, if I die more than once in a whole SM ops I get mad. I don't mind occasional deaths in solo play because I know that it was my fault. But I can't stand the 15 minutes wasted on a typical wipe in a raid.

 

But, it feels like this, that because you're like god of the game and everything's super easy to you, any lesser being's idea of fun is irrelevant and is perfectly okay to trample on. Why should the rest of us be punished because your idea of fun should be king, why should bazillions of casuals suddenly have to unsub because the devs thought that hardcore elitism was the only way to go?

 

Anyway, we don't die, we get defeated; and that shouldn't even happen once, ideally. If it does happen, despite our having done our best, then something is wrong, and it isn't us.

Edited October 12, 2015 by sentientomega

[Max_Killjoy]

Well, bully for you.

 

But I cannot hope to EVER imagine gaining your level of tall-buildings-leapt-in-single-bounds skill, are you so utterly blind and insulated that you cannot possibly IMAGINE that anyone just might find it harder than you do?

 

I have no trouble imagining how elites feel about difficulty, so why are you so utterly closed-minded about how everyone else who has ZERO hope of reaching your skill level, does?

 

For me, soloing that heroic with FULL 186 purples, AT 60, for character AND companion, was a *********** tortuous nightmare; I shudder to think what it will be if we're crush-synced to 55.

 

I'm happy with the idea of a mandatory sync, whether I'll continue to be happy after I've seen how Oricon and other planets sync us down, remains to be seen. If i cannot do the weekly without being defeated even ONCE, it's not worth it.

 

You know, I largely agree with your position on this, but I think annabethchase was very civil and not at all snobby or elitist in this exchange. The exchange was cool, and every informative as to why some of us are talking past each other.

 

I've been very hard on people who can't back up their support for levelsync or mandatory levelsync in a civil manner -- I think we owe it to those who have been civil to return that civility in kind.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[sentientomega]

You know, I largely agree with your position on this, but I think annabethchase was very civil and not at all snobby or elitist in this exchange. The exchange was cool, and every informative as to why some of us are talking past each other.

 

I've been very hard on people who can't back up their support for levelsync or mandatory levelsync in a civil manner -- I think we owe it to those who have been civil to return that civility in kind.

 

Well, I'm sorry, it's so hard to be civil when those uber-skilled elite players refuse to see how the rest of us see things, they talk as though doing the hardest content was soooo brain-dead easy that anyone else who has an even SLIGHTLY harder time should really just die like the worthless piece of filthy casual scum they are (yes, I've been called that before). They conveniently forget that difficulty is a relative thing, because anyone less-skilled then them doesn't matter.

 

I don't mind that they breeze through things I could never DREAM of soloing, I DO mind when THEIR experiences are the standard by which all content difficulty is judged; people like me cannot get their eyes constantly burned when they do get a look-in, and people not as good as I am (and I'm honestly not that good a player, I don't think; a relative term anyway...) will get a look-in, and never sub.

 

I cannot stand to hear them pontificate on how easy everything is, and it's what they're NOT saying that's the key; by saying what they have, they manage to dismiss anyone and everyone who alludes to an even slight difficulty as not worth being heard. I worry that such people have the devs eating out of their god-like little hands, and if such has proved to be the case with the level sync, especially for Oricon, then I don't know what I'll do.

 

Annabethchase, I apologise to you if I've upset you; but you're still wrong, and your frame of reference is BY NO MEANS what BW:A should be using to judge content difficulty.

Edited October 12, 2015 by sentientomega

[robertthebard]

Well, bully for you.

 

But I cannot hope to EVER imagine gaining your level of tall-buildings-leapt-in-single-bounds skill, are you so utterly blind and insulated that you cannot possibly IMAGINE that anyone just might find it harder than you do?

 

I have no trouble imagining how elites feel about difficulty, so why are you so utterly closed-minded about how everyone else who has ZERO hope of reaching your skill level, does?

 

For me, soloing that heroic with FULL 186 purples, AT 60, for character AND companion, was a *********** tortuous nightmare; I shudder to think what it will be if we're crush-synced to 55.

 

I'm happy with the idea of a mandatory sync, whether I'll continue to be happy after I've seen how Oricon and other planets sync us down, remains to be seen. If i cannot do the weekly without being defeated even ONCE, it's not worth it.

 

 

 

But, it feels like this, that because you're like god of the game and everything's super easy to you, any lesser being's idea of fun is irrelevant and is perfectly okay to trample on. Why should the rest of us be punished because your idea of fun should be king, why should bazillions of casuals suddenly have to unsub because the devs thought that hardcore elitism was the only way to go?

 

Anyway, we don't die, we get defeated; and that shouldn't even happen once, ideally. If it does happen, despite our having done our best, then something is wrong, and it isn't us.

 

If you get defeated to lag, it's not your fault. Ideally, that heroic should take everyone apart that's trying to solo it, it's designed for group play after all, and I have yet to see anyone in a group of two fail it, even at level in the Story gear from the planet. But no, it shouldn't be "just walk through it with no chance of defeat". This should be true in any mission in the game that says Heroic, and not because I'm some elite player, but because they're designed for group play.

 

There should be content that makes you have to work to complete it, especially by yourself. We're not talking about some random field elites, we're talking specific champion mobs, and by definition, they're supposed to be hard. Grab a friend or a guildy and knock it out, that's what the content is designed for. That's why the Heroic isn't required to complete the dailies, just the weekly, it's hard, by design.

[Max_Killjoy]

Well, I'm sorry, it's so hard to be civil when those uber-skilled elite players refuse to see how the rest of us see things, they talk as though doing the hardest content was soooo brain-dead easy that anyone else who has an even SLIGHTLY harder time should really just die like the worthless piece of filthy casual scum they are.

 

I don't mind that they breeze through things I could never DREAM of soloing, I DO mind when THEIR experiences are the standard by which all content difficulty is judged; people like me cannot get their eyes constantly burned when they do get a look-in, and people not as good as I am (and I'm honestly not that good a player, I don't think; a relative term anyway...) will get a look-in, and never sub.

 

I cannot stand to hear them pontificate on how easy everything is, and it's what they're NOT saying that's the key; by saying what they have, they manage to dismiss anyone and everyone who alludes to an even slight difficulty as not worth being heard. I worry that such people have the devs eating out of their god-like little hands, and if such has proved to be the case with the level sync, especially for Oricon, then I don't know what I'll do.

 

Well, part of what I found more interesting is the divergence in what we call "easy". It's not just that maybe she's more skilled -- or whatever you want to call it to avoid conflict either way -- than some other players, it's that a far rougher fight for her still makes it over her threshold for "easy".