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Quarterly Producer Letter for Q2 2024 ×

Why Level Sync needs to be Mandatory!


GrandLordMenace

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Here's irrefutable reasons why level sync should be mandatory for Bioware.

 

There's a lot of player complaining that Level Sync introduced, and I'm shocked at how painfully obvious it is that many players are missing the point.

 

Not having Level Sync doesn't make Lore Sense

 

In the original Star Wars trilogy, Stormtroopers were the cannon fodder of the movies, in this game right now, the imperial soldiers are also the cannon fodder of this game. The logical lorebreaking standpoint is that the Snowtrooper enemies at level 40 on say Hoth as it stands on live, are SEVERAL MAGNITUDES weaker than the snowtrooper enemies on say, Ilum. This doesn't make any sense. There's no reason for a flesh raider to suddenly become more powerful when I fight him in the Tython and Korriban Flashpoints in comparison to the ones on Tython.

 

Therefore, Level Sync makes sense from a lore standpoint, a Sith Acolyte on Republic Taris will be just as strong as the equivalent on say, Alderaan. It makes no sense that I can totally barrel through say, a Jedi Master on Dromund Kass, but a Republic Soldier takes comparatively more effort to defeat on Corellia.

 

But doesn't this mean that when I go back to Tython, and I'm a lowly Padawan again?

 

Except... you're not? The ONLY thing scaling down appears to be Stats. You preserve your skills and any abilities you have attained. On Tython as a Jedi Knight and a lowly padawan, how many defensive cooldowns do you have? 1. Saber Ward. As a Vigilance Guardian going back to Tython at level 60, the Jedi Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, you have:

 

Focused Defense, Enure, Saber Ward, and Saber Reflect.

 

Your damage is also significantly higher too. What abilities do you have on a Jedi Knight at level 10, or even a Jedi Guardian? In the case of Vigilance, Plasma Brand, Master Strike, Blade Storm, Strike, Slash, Sundering Strike, and force sweep. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE HEROIC MOMENT.

 

At 60, you have Plasma Brand, Master Strike (And the reset proc), Overhead Slash, Blade Storm, Dispatch (With procs too!) Strike, Slash, Vigilant Thrust, Unremitting off of Force Leap, and SO MUCH MORE.

 

Tell me how logically these two even are on the same playing field. Look at it backwards. If you have a Level 60 Jedi Guardian, remove all the abilities you've gotten since Level 10. Tell me with a straight face those two are equivalent.

 

The BENEFITS of Level Sync?

 

Bioware can do a lot more with Level Sync.

 

Here's why:

 

Imagine in 5.0. Whatever story content comes in 4.0 has passed and besides adding a new planet, Bioware goes,

 

"What if we could have a new questline on older planets that lays the seeds for the main expansion???"

 

In the current system on Live, this would be impossible. You'd run into logistical issues because you'd have random level 65 whatever NPCs attacking random lowbies who don't know what they are doing and stumble upon something they should not stumble upon. We run into a similar problem in 2.0, where the Dreadseed Quests had level 55 enemies that people accidentally stumbled on. We had a similar problem in the Bounty Broker's Event where running by a level 60 fighting a bounty and accidentally whacking it would get you killed.

 

Level Sync eliminates a lot of barriers. Any player can help any other player as long as they both are synced or naturally on level for the planet. You could team up with your Level 15 friend and do his Coruscant Bounty. Say there's a new alien artifact on Alderaan and you need to get it? Before, they'd have to make a new area and make an unintuitive partition. Now, they can just build the area, make it generally fit in with the planet (Or just make it where you can hide certain things while not on pace for the quest), and WHABAM. No random lowbies getting killed.

 

Finally, you can do heroics with friends, kill conquest commanders together (assuming they are downleveled which they probably should be), OW PVP and fight battles against enemies and still be moderately useful, the list goes on and on.

 

Why it should be mandatory

 

"WHY CAN'T I JUST BE OP AND CRUSH EVERYONE ELSE"

-schmuckface

 

Here's why:

 

Number one: If I went to Alderaan and went to a heroic area and was 65, and I wasn't, I could run around trolling everyone by killing the mobs before they kill it. I could kill a World Boss while an 8man ops group was preparing to fight it.

 

A less nefarious use, but still wrong, would be doing a quest at 65, getting to the turn in, turning level sync on, then turning in the quest, then turning level sync back off. You'd literally eliminate any difficulty to leveling on older planets.

 

"Then why can't I just be OP when I'm not doing quests or not doing world bosses or not doing, well, anything?"

 

Why should you be? YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING AT THAT POINT. LITERALLY NOTHING. Also, you're still under the assumption you're actually on level for the content and have the same abilities that you do on level, which, you don't. See point 2.

 

But I'm a Solo Player!

 

If you leveled to 60 alone, you can do it again, except this time you have abilities that literally make you overpowered for the leveling planets. How is this harder? How is this more annoying?

Edited by GrandLordMenace
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None of what you have written precludes making level syncing mandatory, not even the problems you listed at the bottom because there are actually better ways to solve those problems than with mandatory level syncing.

 

Why would you NOT want level sync? I haven't seen a single valid reason why level sync should be removed, because all of those are counterable.

 

Maybe try reading and responding with a point for point analysis and we can have a rational discussion :rak_03:

 

Not to troll, but I haven't seen any valid reasoning. IF you'd be willing to provide it I'd be willing to have the conversation

Edited by GrandLordMenace
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Why would you NOT want level sync? I haven't seen a single valid reason why level sync should be removed, because all of those are counterable.

 

Maybe try reading and responding

 

Ironic that you'd tell people to "try reading", when it's obvious you haven't. Most of us in opposition are not saying "remove level syncing", we're saying "make level syncing optional instead of mandatory".

 

But at the end of the day, we don't want mandatory level sync because we don't want our levels synced -- and that's all the reason we actually need.

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Responses in Underline

 

In all reality, what is this system going to solve if it is mandatory?

 

People have already brought up some good points, like ganking and WBs. But those are issues that are actually better solved through other methods other than level syncing, especially in the form that we witnessed on the livestream. Capping nodes? Not really going to change. Adding challenge? Again, doesn't look to do it to any significant extant. Encourage grouping? Not really.

Again, making it optional or in certain areas would necessitate it to be ESSENTIALLY everywhere. The goal is to get all SOLO content also to be on level regardless of true player level. Almost every NPC in the game relates to some bonus, some side quest, or some class story quest. Only a few NPCs like the random champions on Corellia are quest agnostic.

Here would be the full list of things you'd need to make it sync to maintain the current benefits:

 

World Boss Areas

 

Every Heroic Area

 

Every Single Area where a NPC is present that relates to a side quest.

 

Every single event area.

 

Every Republic and Imperial Base

 

Name another one and I will provide a point why it should be mandatory to preserve current benefits. I can't think of any others. TLDR name a place where Level Sync shouldn't be mandatory.[/0U]

 

Looking at this from the practical perspective, a lot of the game has been, and looks to continue to be, made more solo friendly than just about any MMO out there. Therefore, people are not looking to group up aren't going to suddenly be inspired to group because they suddenly hit that brick wall in a piece of content where they are forced to find a group because they can't solo that content, and the option to vastly over-level it is removed. They'll just end up not doing that content.

 

Except this change is also going to help guilds be more social and help each other out. It incentivizes guild activities such as conquests and not neglecting your lower level guildies.

 

From all appearances at this point in time, and pretty much straight from Eric's mouth, those scaled Heroics can still be soloed. Therefore, where is the incentive to group for them? There is none. People who are naturally inclined to group will still do so. Those who aren't, well we already said that they won't. One can say that with high levels coming back to do the scaled versions for the new rewards will add to the potential grouping pool, but again - if they can be soloed, why would someone group for them if they don't have to? Of course, the higher the level of the content, the more a group may be necessary, but since level syncing will be less and less of a disparity the higher the level the player, syncing will not help finding groups for any of the high level/end game content outside of the Ops and tacticals. So in the end, the forced level syncing in the open world will do very little at best to encourage grouping.

 

The incentive to group for them would be to kill them faster. Have you ever tried to solo a heroic on level? Unless you have a ton of AOE having another person makes it much easier and faster.

 

Let's also not forget the fact that we have the forced accelerated leveling pace to go along with the forced grouping, so we will now have players blazing through content, and more than likely skipping a lot of the side content (like Heroics) on their way to max level. So those who are taking their time and desiring to enjoy the content at a normal pace will find fewer and fewer people to play with along the way and also find themselves vastly overleveled for the content they are playing, necessitating them to purposely gimp themselves to maintain the level of challenge they are looking for (i.e. not gaining skills and not using any new equipment they get - unless of course they use it for purely cosmetic purposes - oh yes, that's right - they can use CC to buy appearance tabs. Hmmmm, quite interesting that). In all reality, BW might just as well not even bothered with the forced level acceleration and syncing and just maintained 12x as a permanent feature and kept the White Acute Module as the opt out. It would have saved them a lot of time and trouble.

 

Except the benefits are NOT just quicker leveling and NOT just to maintain challenge, but to give them the opportunity to add NEW content to old planets and maintain the level balance for lowbies on that planet.

 

Now what about those problems others have mentioned. I have already proposed solutions to those that don't require level scaling at all, let alone forced level scaling - http://www.swtor.com/community/showp...postcount=1502

Let me also add another possible solution for the Heroic/WB issue that can make use of scaling - simply have scaling kick in only when the character enters the appropriate Heroic area. We already have the automatic trigger for the PvP flag in PvP designated areas, so it shouldn't be much of an issue to toggle the scaling on when characters enter any Heroic area. Not my ideal solution because that still causes it to be a forced system in those areas, but nonetheless a much better solution than the carte blanche forced system we have on its way.

 

Can't see your link, doesn't work.

Edited by GrandLordMenace
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Ironic that you'd tell people to "try reading", when it's obvious you haven't. Most of us in opposition are not saying "remove level syncing", we're saying "make level syncing optional instead of mandatory".

 

But at the end of the day, we don't want mandatory level sync because we don't want our levels synced -- and that's all the reason we actually need.

 

When reasoning is just "I DUN WANNA"

 

It's not enough.

 

There are drawbacks to level sync? Sure, there are drawbacks to everything. There's even a drawback to an MMO on society because it makes people concentrate on a virtual world instead of a real one, yet plenty of people still play MMOs.

 

Unless the negatives outweigh the positives, there isn't a good reason to remove Level Sync. See main thread for litany of positives.

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When reasoning is just "I DUN WANNA"

 

It's not enough.

 

There are drawbacks to level sync? Sure, there are drawbacks to everything. There's even a drawback to an MMO on society because it makes people concentrate on a virtual world instead of a real one, yet plenty of people still play MMOs.

 

Unless the negatives outweigh the positives, there isn't a good reason to remove Level Sync. See main thread for litany of positives.

 

Wow, I even explained it right there in the post you're replying to, and you still can't be bothered to actually address the actual position actually being presented. Actually.

 

95% of us in the "opposition" aren't asking for level-syncing to be removed -- we're asking for it to be optional.

 

We tried giving our long lists of detailed reasons why, and yet 99% of the posts made by those in favor of it being mandatory either ignore the reasons in favor of half-witted trolling about "Hurrr, y u mad, no more faceroll grays lol?", or just blow them off as "invalid" without ever stopping to consider them.

 

And if our reasons for not wanting to partake in levelsyncing don't matter to you, why should any of your reasons in favor of levelsyncing matter to us?

 

The best solution remains, make it optional -- that way, we don't have to worry about how you play the game, and you don't have to worry about how we play the game.

Edited by Max_Killjoy
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Wow, I even explained it right there in the post you're replying to, and you still can't be bothered to actually address the actual position actually being made. Actually.

 

95% of us in the "opposition" aren't asking for level-syncing to be removed -- we're asking for it to be optional.

 

We tried giving our long lists of detailed reasons why, and 99% of the posts made either ignore the reasons in favor of half-witted trolling about "Hurrr, y u mad, no more faceroll grays lol?", or just blow them off as "invalid" without ever stopping to consider them,

 

What are the NEGATIVES though, the only one I can see is that well, you can't farm old mobs for achievements as fast, you can't faceroll old quests, but the objective of Level Sync is to make that content more relevant, not less. The ideas for tuning down or making level sync optional are directly in contrast to the presumed goals of Level Sync.

 

Also if you could toggle level sync, people would abuse it by turning in a quest while synced and completing it while not synced.

 

There is no solution that would preserve the current functionality of Level Synch without removing functionality, or the potential to be exploited.

Edited by GrandLordMenace
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What are the NEGATIVES though, the only one I can see is that well, you can't farm old mobs for achievements as fast, you can't faceroll old quests, but the objective of Level Sync is to make that content more relevant, not less. The ideas for tuning down or making level sync optional are directly in contrast to the presumed goals of Level Sync.

 

Maybe it makes that content "more relevant" for you.

 

Maybe it makes that content "less relevant" for someone else.

 

Why not let both people get as much enjoyment out of the game as possible?

 

As for the "goals" of LevelSync, to be blunt... I don't care what they are. I guarantee it won't get me to group less... but it will get me to never go back to those lower-level planets for any reason, ever again.

 

 

Also if you could toggle level sync, people would abuse it by turning in a quest while synced and completing it while not synced.

 

So make toggling the sync reset the progress of any quest you're on, on that planet.

 

There is no solution that would preserve the current functionality of Level Synch without removing functionality, or the potential to be exploited.

 

The only "functionality" that a toggle would remove is Bioware's actual intention of increasing the tedium and slogginess of older content.

Edited by Max_Killjoy
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Maybe it makes that content "more relevant" for you.

 

Maybe it makes that content "less relevant" for someone else.

 

Why not let both people get as much enjoyment out of the game as possible?

 

except then people would exploit the system. Exploitation should not be doable by the system.

 

You haven't said anything to counter my example, which is people will do a quest while not synched, finish the quest, go to turn in, turn synch on, then turn in the quest.

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except then people would exploit the system. Exploitation should not be doable by the system.

 

You haven't said anything to counter my example, which is people will do a quest while not synched, finish the quest, go to turn in, turn synch on, then turn in the quest.

The only quests affected by the level syncing are the Heroics, and the solutions have already been presented - make the area for the quest a mandatory on area, or simply make the toggle for the area based on the quest being in the log.

 

If the goal is to make all content "relevant" to someone other than the individual player, then the mandatory accelerated leveling pace needs to be removed so players do not out-level the content.

 

Again, making it optional or in certain areas would necessitate it to be ESSENTIALLY everywhere.

No it would not. It does not make it any more mandatory than having the PvP flag active on PvE servers outside of the designated zones.

 

The goal is to get all SOLO content also to be on level regardless of true player level. Almost every NPC in the game relates to some bonus, some side quest, or some class story quest. Only a few NPCs like the random champions on Corellia are quest agnostic.

Again, nothing necessitates making it mandatory. There are people who enjoy playing in various states of level as compared to the content they are playing. How they play is not in any way wrong because it is how they get enjoyment out of the game. The one's who want an semblance of challenge can turn the scaling off. Those who want to have less of a challenge can turn it off.

 

As I, and many others have already mentioned, the issues of ganking, WBs, and heroics are more easily, and better solved via other methods than carte blanche level syncing.

 

Except this change is also going to help guilds be more social and help each other out. It incentivizes guild activities such as conquests and not neglecting your lower level guildies.

None of which would be compromised by making the level syncing optional. Guilds who want to be incentivized for group content and socializing can still do so by toggling the system on. Those that don't care aren't going to be made to care with a forced system.

 

 

The incentive to group for them would be to kill them faster. Have you ever tried to solo a heroic on level? Unless you have a ton of AOE having another person makes it much easier and faster.

Again, nothing compromising here with an optional system. Those that want to group and do it faster will group and do it faster, regardless of level syncing. Those that do not will still do it solo - either with the toggle on if they want challenge, or off if they do not.

 

Except the benefits are NOT just quicker leveling and NOT just to maintain challenge, but to give them the opportunity to add NEW content to old planets and maintain the level balance for lowbies on that planet.

*Sigh*, and again, nothing compromising here with an optional system. Adding new content is not precluded with an optional system. We already have examples of areas on low level planets designed for higher level characters. Never been a problem with that. Aside from the fact that any new content added to certain planets would have to be done in new zones, which then could be instanced off if necessary, because of that good old lore perspective following the invasion of the Zakuul.

 

Can't see your link, doesn't work.[/u]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8476602&postcount=1502

Edited by TravelersWay
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OP, stop making sense. You're hurting the children's developing brains.

 

So many threads about how this is the death of SWTOR and blah blah blah. Did anyone even watch the damn stream where Musco (who was only using 3 abilities) absolutely destroyed an elite droid with 3 attacks when he went to that Heroic on DK? Let me see any player in this game kill an elite with 3 attacks at level 18 on DK. From what I saw, we will all be EXTREMELY OP with level sync on. Musco even stated that he doesn't see any capable player having any problem soloing heroics.

 

I don't know. To me, it seems like a lot of people are freaking out about nothing. The level sync feature not having a toggle is a minuscule problem, if it even is a problem, compared to other things that we've heard about with this xpac. I say we should give it a try, and if it sucks in practice then you complain to your hearts content until they change it to a toggle... after release. I really do not see any problem at all with level sync as-is, though.

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except then people would exploit the system. Exploitation should not be doable by the system.

 

You haven't said anything to counter my example, which is people will do a quest while not synched, finish the quest, go to turn in, turn synch on, then turn in the quest.

 

Actually, I did, if you'd slow down and let me reply to your *********** spaz-edits.

 

One possible solution to this "terrible exploit" you keep bringing up -- make toggling the sync reset the progress of any quest you're on, on that planet.

Edited by Max_Killjoy
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I guess you didn't read the rest of my post. And I'm the kid... sheesh. Let go of your anger, old man.

 

Every point I've needed to make is in the OP. If players don't want to read and don't want to think of the benefits and want to unsubscribe before launch, it's their loss :)

 

I'm sure in 4.0 it'll become evident exactly how important Level Sync is to the game, considering we don't know anything besides the base story, nor of any of the side activities available, or even how we'll recruit our companions back cause I'm betting that would be a spoiler.

Edited by GrandLordMenace
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Every point I've needed to make is in the OP. If players don't want to read and don't want to think of the benefits and want to unsubscribe before launch, it's their loss :)

 

None of your points seem discuss any way in which LevelSync would make the game better for me.

 

For me, LevelSync is all negatives, no positives. It's all loss, no gain. It does nothing for me. It is going to make the game less fun, and push more content into the "why bother?" pile.

 

 

I'm sure in 4.0 it'll become evident exactly how important Level Sync is to the game, considering we don't know anything besides the base story, nor of any of the side activities available, or even how we'll recruit our companions back cause I'm betting that would be a spoiler.

 

And none of that means anything to me. I'm not doing KotFE. I have no interest in a rehash of the plot conceit from ME2, nor in yet another hack-written example of the "You cannot comprehend my power or my plans within plans... for the fourth time!" cliche.

 

I was going to stick around, level by doing the existing high-level dailies, run Bounty Week when it came up, level some more alts, etc. Unfortunately, LevelSync is going to make all of those things LESS enjoyable for me, while doing NOTHING to make the game BETTER for me.

 

That entire situation could be avoided by making the LevelSync optional, and it wouldn't hurt anyone else's enjoyment of the game at all.

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Why would you NOT want level sync? I haven't seen a single valid reason why level sync should be removed, because all of those are counterable.

 

Maybe try reading and responding with a point for point analysis and we can have a rational discussion :rak_03:

 

Not to troll, but I haven't seen any valid reasoning. IF you'd be willing to provide it I'd be willing to have the conversation

 

1. the fact thatyou resorted to insults in your original post already makes your arguments very much refutable.

2. just becasue you don't wish to accept reasons people have been given, doesn't make them invalid.

 

none of the counters you provided are actual counters, there are merely your opinions.

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You probably really did ignore me - because people that don't agree with you are trolls - but I will reply to this anyway.

 

None of your points seem discuss any way in which LevelSync would make the game better for me.

 

Can you tell us how the game will be worse for you with mandatory level sync? You will be effectively just as powerful as you are fighting mobs on Dromund Kaas as you are on Ziost. With that in mind, you mentioned a few things that I didn't quote to keep this relatively short.

 

1. You're not playing KoTFE. Okay, so your gameplay will be directly affected by level sync, but how is this negative? You will be just as strong as you are now, on every single planet. I won't question how you choose to play the game because I don't care how you spend your $15/month.

 

2. Level by doing existing high-level dailies. You will be, for all intents and purposes, unaffected by level sync... because these quests will be pretty much at your level.

 

3. Bounty hunter week. When you do bounty hunter week, bounties are scaled to your level currently. What's the difference when there's level sync? Nothing... not even something you can kind of call a difference. Now you just get to choose at what level you want to kill a bounty.

 

4. Leveling alts. Unaffected by level sync.

 

5. Level sync optional. I won't argue this because I have not experienced level sync for myself, but your arguments are not doing anything at all to turn me against mandatory level sync.

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Level Sync is the best thing Bioware could have done for SWTOR.

 

As a solo player it will revitalize the game for me.

 

For those that only see the negatives and will not be happy with the changes, I wish for something they enjoy be found to fill the void.

 

I played GW years ago as an archer, but i didnt want to just be a support ranged type character. There was a skill that allowed me be charge into a mob and do a great amount of damage. This skill was not just nerfed it was changed completely not allowing me to play the game the way I wanted to and was able to until the change. So I feel your pain about the coming change to your play style.

 

I did find other things in GW that I enjoyed doing so continued to play. This is my hope for you, that you will find something else in SWTOR that you enjoy and continue to play.

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Actually, I did, if you'd slow down and let me reply to your *********** spaz-edits.

 

One possible solution to this "terrible exploit" you keep bringing up -- make toggling the sync reset the progress of any quest you're on, on that planet.

 

That does nothing to stop exploiting using other methods.

 

One example:

 

Player A and his buddy player B go back to lower level planets to run heroics for exp and rewards. They do not group up.

 

Player A is level sync'd and picks up heroic quest. Player A tags mobs for quest and his buddy player B then kills them. Player A then turns in quest, gets the "reward" for completing quest while level sync'd, although player B who was not level sync'd did all the "work".

 

Then player A "opts out" of level sync and player "opts in" and reverse the process for player B's heroic.

 

 

That is only one example. There are likely more possibilities for exploitation of an "optional" level sync.

 

Making level sync mandatory puts everyone on as close to equal footing as possible and makes finding a way to exploit the system much more difficult to do.

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Level SYNC is stupid and only created to drag out content. Period.

 

I have no desire to visit planets that I'm going to be down sync'd and will not motivate me in any fashion now.

 

WHY will this suck for me as a crafter? I'll agro every freakin MOB just doing a typical round of mat's gathering. I don't care about the weekly that drops crap blue crates (Which I'll likely be BIS day one anyways). I have no desire to do bounty hunter quests now with Level Sync nor dealing with RAKGHOUL's or mobs getting to them.

 

I'm annoyed this is not optional. All those fan boys are like "PROVE ME WRONG" why it's bad. Well how about you prove why its needed instead? We don't have it today and it's not a problem, why change that? I can give a crap less how you want to play - until you pay my monthly sub you can kiss my backside on my opinion and why I don't agree with your approach. Just because you want to PVP or want to RP doesn't mean everyone else does.

 

Don't care about LORE... next point...

Oh goodie I've some abilities... so what... next point

Benefits you list can be done OPTIONAL... next point

Face roll - Yea cause I like doing that - what about all those kill 1000 xyz (Way harder at level w/o lots days)

Solo Play - again CHOICE - you go RP walk you own toon around, but others don't.

 

Top it off I'm sure in some fashion this will be exploited like the iLUM bolster buff as well the PVP Bolster. I've very little faith that BW will actually have it working correctly day one.

 

And the final insult is conquest is already being kicked in the nuts and I refuse to go planet side to try and kill those conquest quests "IF" they scale properly even. Nobody knows what ORICON is going to scale to either (DK was a slightly difference).

Edited by dscount
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