Why aren`t women Siths referred as "lady"?

[Aeneas_Falco]

You can marry into one of the noble families on alderaan if your female? That's interesting.

 

If you've played through the Bounty Hunter class story, it is at the conclusion of the Kingmaker for a Day quest. At the end of it the Bounty Hunter is asked to choose who should rule to the noble house you're working for, in the wake of the previous Baron's death. There are two male candidates, one the old Baron's son and the other his brother I believe, and one female, who is the old Baron's daughter. The son will try to bribe a female Bounty Hunter to vote for his ascension by proposing marriage if she chooses him. Agreeing and marrying him gets the Baroness title. If the Bounty Hunter agrees to vote for him as Baron, but not to marrying him, she'll get the Knight of Alderaan title. (whether or not she sleeps with him)

[Nefla]

I definitely would have preferred being called "my lady," or "ma'am" to "my lord" and "sir."

[SelinaH]

I'm torn. On the one hand, "Lord" clearly has a history of gendered usage in our world, so it may be seen as non-inclusive by some segments of the player population.

 

On the other, having separate, gender-differentiated titles only serves to highlight and reinforce the values of a culture or society which takes for granted that men and women should be -- and are -- treated differently.

 

My personal preference is for in-game titles to apply equally to all genders. I feel that even a questionably neutral term such as "Lord" or "You guys" is still better than dividing up and labeling people by ports and dongles and what-have-you (not even going to get into the issue of non-binary genders or cis/trans here).

To the Sith in the game Lord is just as neutral as Darth - it's not a reference to gender but status and power.

 

We react to Sir/Mam and Lord/Lady because our language and culture cares about these distinctions, but not every language and culture cares. The ancient egyptians saw no reason to call a female ruler anything else than Pharaoh - she had royal blood and was an aspect of a male god just the same as a man would have been.

If both genders are truly equal, there is little reason to draw distinction between them in a situation where they fulfill the exact same roles and duties.

What they said, more or less.

[Cordarn]

If you've played through the Bounty Hunter class story, it is at the conclusion of the Kingmaker for a Day quest. At the end of it the Bounty Hunter is asked to choose who should rule to the noble house you're working for, in the wake of the previous Baron's death. There are two male candidates, one the old Baron's son and the other his brother I believe, and one female, who is the old Baron's daughter. The son will try to bribe a female Bounty Hunter to vote for his ascension by proposing marriage if she chooses him. Agreeing and marrying him gets the Baroness title. If the Bounty Hunter agrees to vote for him as Baron, but not to marrying him, she'll get the Knight of Alderaan title. (whether or not she sleeps with him)

 

Thanks for clearing that up; I played through the bounty hunter story as male so I missed that part.

[SteveTheCynic]

A good way I think they could have avoided it with the Sith is by giving them some noble honorific in the Sith Empire. For example having non-Sith address Sith as, "Your Grace," or "Your Worship," ect.

In the French localisation, they do exactly this. You arrive on DK (nobody on Korriban calls the SW anything but "acolyte" or maybe "apprenti" (apprentice), and ffs the SI is usually called "esclave" (slave) in French, especially by Harkun - man that made me tense going back later to speak to him) for the first time, and the dude outside the spaceport, the one who gives you the quest about the predators eating the antennas, addresses you as "Excellence", approximately "(Your) Excellency". And this happens all over the place. On the other hand, people refer to Zash as "Le Seigneur Zash" because the "Le" (normally for masculine terms) modifies "Seigneur" (Lord) and not "Zash".

 

For real fun, though, take your trooper back to Coruscant to pick up the heroics. Mine has the end-of-SOR title, but she is still referred to as "Lieutenant". Heck, even Elara sometimes does that.

[PallyHk]

In the current use of English, Lady is the female equivalent of Gentleman most of the time.

Since there is no more nobility, the title "lord" have lost all its usefullness in most English speaking countries.

You only hear it in a historical or a fictional context. Even the president is a sir, not "Lord Obama" or "Lord Bush" .

 

Sith are called Lord because it refers to the rank of the person, not the gender of the rank's holder. If female Sith were called Lady, than male Sith would be called Gentleman. Even non native speakers are familiar with the title "Lord Vader" .

 

In the same vein, lady Jedi are called Master and Knight. Its not Knightess or Grand Mistress Satele. With the alternate interpretations on the word "mistress", that is just as well I think.

 

The trooper rank is more up for debate, as "ma'am" is used in modern speech a lot. But sir is not that exclusively male title like "Mr" so its not a big deal.

 

If you are not a native English speaker like me, than most likely you won't get this whole big gender and pronoun thing. It is one of those crazy US things that the rest of the world doesn't get (or care about) .

My culture does not even have the concept of gender and has a pronoun for people and one for non living objects. The only grey area are animals which can be called either.

 

They refer to female characters as her/she all the time, which requires extra lines. This is just a case of "no one but a feminist gives a ****"

 

Maybe I'm just a little sore after they tried changing the Canadian national anthem to be more politically correct (gag)...

 

That's a Social Justice Warrior or SJW problem. Blame blue bears with fedoras. South park deals with them. PC Principal BROOOO!

 

Ironically enough, I would think a true feminist would insist on being called Sir, specifically BECAUSE it's what a man in her position would be referred to as.

 

If both genders are truly equal, there is little reason to draw distinction between them in a situation where they fulfill the exact same roles and duties.

 

(Think of Captain Gates on Castle. She insisted on being referred to as Sir.)

 

Yes, this sounds more like what an old school feminist would want.

But x-ists/activists can never agree on one thing, so its usually a "can't please them all" situation, and BW just went cheap to spare the VO work.

 

As for Lumya , I think when she was invented, she was the only female Sith Lord, so she called herself THE Lady of the Sith to stand out, similar like the Wrath or the Sword of the Jedi titles.

In KOTOR era, female and male Sith are both very common.

[SithKoriandr]

Whoa whoa whoa...US isn't the only english speaking country Just saying, it's not a US only thing.

[Aeneas_Falco]

Whoa whoa whoa...US isn't the only english speaking country Just saying, it's not a US only thing.

 

It also doesn't originate with the U.S.

 

There is a reason why the English language is called English, and not American. Europeans are often quite humorous in the things they bash America for. I'm half convinced that there could be snowfall resulting in road closures somewhere in Europe, and someone will blame America for it.

[SithKoriandr]

It also doesn't originate with the U.S.

 

There is a reason why the English language is called English, and not American. Europeans are often quite humorous in the things they bash America for. I'm half convinced that there could be snowfall resulting in road closures somewhere in Europe, and someone will blame America for it.

 

Russia did blame us for a meteor. *nod nod*

[Sangiban]

Jedi are called Master and Knight. Its not Knightess or Grand Mistress Satele. With the alternate interpretations on the word "mistress", that is just as well I think.

This is a pretty good point. For me, being called Grand Mistress would be serious for probably the first few times. Then it would just lead to snickering.

If you are not a native English speaker like me, than most likely you won't get this whole big gender and pronoun thing. It is one of those crazy US things that the rest of the world doesn't get (or care about) .

From what I remember of the one semester I took of German 1 in high school, I can assure you there are quite a few million non-English speakers who would have a big concern over this too; because of how gender is tied to the grammar. French is the same way (in terms of having grammatical gender; which English generally doesn't have). I recall someone earlier in the thread who played (plays?) the French version and the example they gave was how Lord Zash was translated as le seigneur Zash (apologies for the spelling).

 

My culture does not even have the concept of gender and has a pronoun for people and one for non living objects. The only grey area are animals which can be called either.

As someone who gets interested by linguistics, this honestly sounds really cool .

[Palar]

From what I remember of the one semester I took of German 1 in high school, I can assure you there are quite a few million non-English speakers who would have a big concern over this too; because of how gender is tied to the grammar. French is the same way (in terms of having grammatical gender; which English generally doesn't have). I recall someone earlier in the thread who played (plays?) the French version and the example they gave was how Lord Zash was translated as le seigneur Zash (apologies for the spelling).

 

Thai's another good example; even greetings are different by gender. Not just formal ones, but the equivalent of "good morning".

[CrutchCricket]

In the current use of English, Lady is the female equivalent of Gentleman most of the time.

Since there is no more nobility, the title "lord" have lost all its usefullness in most English speaking countries.

You only hear it in a historical or a fictional context. Even the president is a sir, not "Lord Obama" or "Lord Bush" .

 

Sith are called Lord because it refers to the rank of the person, not the gender of the rank's holder. If female Sith were called Lady, than male Sith would be called Gentleman. Even non native speakers are familiar with the title "Lord Vader" .

Pretty much. "Lady" isn't really an equivalent to "Lord" historically, it's just a civil term of respect, a default way to refer to nobility. Historically if you have Lord and Lady Whatever, Lady Whatever was by no means equal in status to Lord Whatever. Lord Whatever was the lord of whereever and the lady was just his wife. A knight's wife would get the same honorific. Hell, "lord" is itself the most generic ruling title ever, anyone that rules you is pretty much your lord from the knight in charge of an area to God himself. Though like you pointed out, it's not really used in modern times anymore.

 

In terms of Star Wars, Vader held the rank of Darth but was often referred to as Lord Vader. And in this Sith Empire if you're a Sith, you rule, Hence you're a lord. Even apprentices get called "my lord" by non-Sith. There's an expectation that "lord" and "lady" are equivalent and go together but that's not technically true. A "Lady of the Sith" may well be just a consort to some Darth, if we take a direct equivalency from our world.

 

As far as EU justification goes, I can only think of two cases of "Lady" being used as a female equivalent of Lord for Sith. Lumiya, who was just doing her own thing and Olaris Rhea of the Lost Tribe from the Fate of the Jedi series of books.The Lost Tribe uses a lot of their own ranks (Sith Saber for example) and is heavily influenced by Keshiri culture (the planet they were stranded on). This marks them as an outlier I think and therefore an exception to how Sith operate, more than a rule.

 

The military use of sir only is a little more jarring, I'll admit. But since I've encountered it primarily on the Empire side I've just chalked it up to a cultural thing, Imperials being obviously influenced by the Sith.

[irished]

They don't have a gender distinction when your called a sith , to call someone a lady is a distinction that makes gender inequalities.

[hansumlazurwolf]

First off, I'm gonna be that *sshole. *pushes up glasses* "Um, actually..."

It'd be Dame, not Knightess. Also the Sith hierarchy goes acolyte -> apprentice -> lord -> darth [ -> dark lord?].

 

----------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I suffer from that thing were one feels compelled to correct things. Not insultingly, mind you, just needing to ensure that the information is as accurate as possible.

Okay, now that that's out of the way, on to the actual topic.

 

If gender distinction is unimportant, and the language lacks a neutral gender, the form used tends to default to the grammatical masculine, which, grammatically, often serves as the sort of base-form of the word, with other forms arising as needed.

 

Additionally if, as some people suggested, we take the Tolkienian approach and think of this in terms of Basic not being English (or French or whatever language you speak), the word translated as "lord" may not have gendered forms. If this was the case, we would use lord as the nearest possible translation of [one who is of the noble class, in a position of authority], or whatever the exact definition would be. Again, for lack of a "neutral" form, we generally treat the masculine form as the default.

 

If the Alderaanians distinguish between male and female nobility, then it makes sense we would translate their titles accordingly. But if the Sith don't make any such distinction (and from everything I've seen, they don't) there would be no need to use different words. Hell, it's even possible that the word translated as "lord" in the connotation of the Sith is a different word than other "lords" in the galaxy, just having the same nearest equivalent.

[SithKoriandr]

Exactly. It's just the word we got the title. Darth (last I knew) was another language (not English) for Dark.

 

they could have gone and made up words...

 

Anabi

Rogerbi

Wilkobi

Haneybi

 

for Acolyte, Apprentice, Lord and Darth. Would people then be complaining about how silly they are over the fact that there isn't gender specific rankings? Should we change Lieutenant to Lieutenantette for females?

[SteveTheCynic]

Should we change Lieutenant to Lieutenantette for females?

No. It comes from French, and can be broken down into two words, "lieu" (place or position) and "tenant" (present participle of tenir, to hold), so is approximately "someone who is holding a position".

 

And if there was a female equivalent distinguished by spelling, it would be lieutenante.

[SteveTheCynic]

Pretty much. "Lady" isn't really an equivalent to "Lord" historically, it's just a civil term of respect, a default way to refer to nobility. Historically if you have Lord and Lady Whatever, Lady Whatever was by no means equal in status to Lord Whatever. Lord Whatever was the lord of whereever and the lady was just his wife. A knight's wife would get the same honorific. Hell, "lord" is itself the most generic ruling title ever, anyone that rules you is pretty much your lord from the knight in charge of an area to God himself. Though like you pointed out, it's not really used in modern times anymore.

Depends very much where you are. And during the English feudal period (whose coffin received its final nail in about 1290(1), although the corpse continued knocking on the inside for a while after), the "lord" - it wasn't a title as such, just a word for whoever was in charge - could be the abbot of the local monastery, or a baron (ranking above mere knights), or a duke (ranking higher still) or even the king (uncommon at best).

 

(1) On the promulgation of the law commonly known as "Quia Emptores" which outlawed subinfeudation (granting of lands on a feudal basis). This law is still in force, at least in part, 725 years later.

 

Even apprentices get called "my lord" by non-Sith.

In the French localisation, my Jedi are consistently called "Maître" (Master) by non-Jedi from the moment they leave Tython, even though the JC doesn't get that rank until the end of Chapter One, if I recall correctly.

 

The military use of sir only is a little more jarring, I'll admit. But since I've encountered it primarily on the Empire side I've just chalked it up to a cultural thing, Imperials being obviously influenced by the Sith.

In the French localisation, my she-Trooper is erratically called "Monsieur" or "Madame", although Elara is at least consistent in calling her "Madame" even if she can't get my rank right. (Running round Corellia, stray click on her, and she mutters something about this not being a good time to talk, Lieutenant.)

[SithKoriandr]

No. It comes from French, and can be broken down into two words, "lieu" (place or position) and "tenant" (present participle of tenir, to hold), so is approximately "someone who is holding a position".

 

And if there was a female equivalent distinguished by spelling, it would be lieutenante.

 

Either you missed the point or you're joking. I'm not sure of which

[CrutchCricket]

Depends very much where you are. And during the English feudal period (whose coffin received its final nail in about 1290(1), although the corpse continued knocking on the inside for a while after), the "lord" - it wasn't a title as such, just a word for whoever was in charge - could be the abbot of the local monastery, or a baron (ranking above mere knights), or a duke (ranking higher still) or even the king (uncommon at best).

Precisely my point. I hesitated to type the phrase you bolded because I'm aware the title is still kicking around in British politics (i.e. House of Lords) and perhaps other places but it's not really what we mean by "lord" here, i.e. people that directly rule others.

 

In the French localisation, my Jedi are consistently called "Maître" (Master) by non-Jedi from the moment they leave Tython, even though the JC doesn't get that rank until the end of Chapter One, if I recall correctly.

 

 

In the French localisation, my she-Trooper is erratically called "Monsieur" or "Madame", although Elara is at least consistent in calling her "Madame" even if she can't get my rank right. (Running round Corellia, stray click on her, and she mutters something about this not being a good time to talk, Lieutenant.)

I've heard "master" being used as a generic appellation in fiction before, even in English- "master Jedi, master Baggins" etc. though it always used a name or another identifier after the "master". I'm guessing there's some European precedent for using that word as a basic greeting. Honestly though, Jedi and Sith being referenced by someone whose not deferential is probably the worst because they just get called "Jedi" and "Sith". Sounds so awkward.

 

As for your trooper, sounds like the French VA didn't account for your promotions in the generic companion dialog, like when you click them without conversations being unlocked. I can't remember if English is the same way, I'm not on my trooper much these days.

[Diviciacus]

I've heard "master" being used as a generic appellation in fiction before, even in English- "master Jedi, master Baggins" etc. though it always used a name or another identifier after the "master". I'm guessing there's some European precedent for using that word as a basic greeting. Honestly though, Jedi and Sith being referenced by someone whose not deferential is probably the worst because they just get called "Jedi" and "Sith". Sounds so awkward.

 

"Master" in the sense used by Tolkien is actually a specific honorific denoting a young man, especially one who is unmarried. Which is to say, exactly Frodo Baggins.

[VanorDM]

This comes in Star Trek lore discussions as well.

 

The problem is, that in Star Wars like Star Trek there are races with between 1 and X genders, as opposed to our two. So the very concept of a two words for each gender is extremely humancentric. It's something that would not exist in a galactic wide society. So they'd pick or make up a word that is gender neutral and use that in every case.

[Spetulhu]

"Master" in the sense used by Tolkien is actually a specific honorific denoting a young man, especially one who is unmarried. Which is to say, exactly Frodo Baggins.

 

Aye. It's been used in a lot of real-world places too, though if there's still craftsman guilds it's only the higher ranking members who are masters. We call one of the owners of my small workplace "the master" right now not because he's the guy who signs the papers but because he's the guy who makes noise. ;-)

[Nefla]

I wonder if a game had it reversed and just called "ma'am" and "my lady" the default, "non-gendered" titles if guys would be perfectly fine being called ma'am and lady all the time...

[SithKoriandr]

I wonder if a game had it reversed and just called "ma'am" and "my lady" the default, "non-gendered" titles if guys would be perfectly fine being called ma'am and lady all the time...

 

That's easy to answer. You have females who go with it and those who don't, even when it's shown to be a rank and not a gender bias title. Shown it's only gender biased because people want it to be, likely because of Lord & Lady.

 

So it's a pretty good bet that some males would accept it and some wouldn't.

[Nefla]

That's easy to answer. You have females who go with it and those who don't, even when it's shown to be a rank and not a gender bias title. Shown it's only gender biased because people want it to be, likely because of Lord & Lady.

 

So it's a pretty good bet that some males would accept it and some wouldn't.

 

Women are used to the male version of something being the default version and are used to going with it. I feel like there would be a *****torm if it were the other way around. How many women flipped out when the Asari in Mass Effect hit on their female Shepards? None that I can recall. Now how many men flipped out when Anders made a flirtatious comment to their male Hawke?