Why scaling should not be optional

[branmakmuffin]

All these discussions could be prevented if BW would FINALLY (yes, I'm yelling at them) give us the information that they have been promising for months.

 

It's beyond ridiculous by now that they are still keeping it all a secret.

What information regarding scaling have they been "promising for months?" This entire discussion is based on leaks and data-mining and has nothing to do with BWEA's "promises."

Edited September 24, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[Transcendent]

You are ignoring two of the three reasons people solo old flashpoints. So no, the reasons people like to solo outleveled content isn't gone. Only one reason to do so is addressed: that of seeing the story at your leisure.

 

1. Decorations, mounts, pets & armor. Solo mode flashpoints don't drop those, or drop them so rarely you have better chances of winning the lottery.

 

2. Solo challenge. Currently the only challenging solo content is soloing group content. Solo mode flashpoints are mind-numbingly easy.

 

To keep it fair and balanced they should offer hard mode solo versions that drop the same loot 25% of the time.

 

You missed one, achievements. The plus side is that you get to keep decos / gear for purely yourself if your rng is pretty terrible when grouped up. I don't mind a solo mode option being available for newer players, I don't mind tactical versions being added.

 

What I do mind is BioWare removing the chance for me to run that content as it is now, while I'm over-levelled, purely to plod along doing achievements (while collecting loot ). Considering there isn't any other end-game content I'm interested in doing.

 

So by removing that option, they remove my motivation to bother playing the game once I've done the new story bit. Completely pointless continuing to subscribe if that happens.

[Upirlikhyi]

What information regarding scaling have they been "promising for months?" This entire discussion is based on leaks and data-mining and has nothing to do with BWEA's "promises."

 

These Solo Mode Flashpoints use a new level sync system that lowers your character’s level and power to the level of the Flashpoint, ensuring that you’re experiencing the content at the difficulty level intended ...

 

not data mined but a quote from bioware themselves on 7-9...this is where the debate stems from and why people want information

[Frenesi]

Coming with GW2 experience, level downscale isn't something terrible. And character with high level passives/skills remains that more powerful than lower level char.

[Upirlikhyi]

Coming with GW2 experience, level downscale isn't something terrible. And character with high level passives/skills remains that more powerful than lower level char.

 

i don't think it will be as bad as people think...i just wish we had more info to base our thoughts on

[well]

Hmm how things are versus how they should be can be a contradiction. I'm not sure what you mean. Regardless, if all of this comes to fruition, things are going to change for the better IMO. The game could be much livelier as result, so players will adjust or not, but bending over backwards to please all is never possible.

 

So I welcome the change. I am also looking forward to new players that will never know the difference and well as the old vets who can take advantage of knowing the in and outs. Optional scaling is not needed to please a faction of players.

 

There is nothing wrong with optional scaling. It is rare that I do fps. Maybe BT and Esses once in awhile for old times sake. That and those that go with SORs. Having the option doesn't hurt. If you don't want it you don't have to use it. It is pretty simple.

[TUXs]

There is nothing wrong with optional scaling. It is rare that I do fps. Maybe BT and Esses once in awhile for old times sake. That and those that go with SORs. Having the option doesn't hurt. If you don't want it you don't have to use it. It is pretty simple.

Precisely!!! Optional is the best way to go.

[branmakmuffin]

These Solo Mode Flashpoints use a new level sync system that lowers your character’s level and power to the level of the Flashpoint, ensuring that you’re experiencing the content at the difficulty level intended .

Yes. flashpoints. People are not getting their knickers in a twist about flashpoints.

[Urantia]

It's already been stated by the devs that if you buy a lvl 60, it'll be locked out from pre KotFE class missions.

 

I can't see them making a change as moronic as "forced planetary scaling". If I'm just going back to the dark temple grounds to just use the matrix shards I found, I don't want to have to fight my way thru a bunch of lvl 15 peons with my lvl 40 juggernaut. I don't have that kinda time to waste. Now if I'm grouping to help a lower lvl player...sure...scale me back down. If I w wanna group for a lower lvl fp....sure....scale me back. But if I'm just doing my own thing, like using my lvl 60 to gather Mats on Taris. Leave me and my lvl alone.

 

Cool thank you...as lame as it may seem, players like you and this site are all I have to go on hehe. I admit I may not dig as deep as I should...but was unsure how the instant 60 thing was going to work. Part of me hoped they would be locked...but was not sure. Were they not, then I could see the scaling being a way to keep it in hand a little bit.

 

On the rest we concur.

[Khiriath]

Let me give you one class story reason why enforced level synching isn't going to happen.

 

 

Your dreaded Sith assassin has just kicked the snot out of a lvl 50 Darth Thanaton. He jets off to Korriban to meet with the Dark Council, you pursue...

 

 

What happens when you get there is this:

 

 

Option 1: BW does its normal bang up job of checking for bugs and your lvl synched toon walks in and gets pwned by Thanaton again and again and again and again(repeating of course). Now because BW is taking a vaca from launch until Feb, there is 8 weeks in which this broken mechanic will not be fixed.

 

Option 2: You walk in and find yourself now fighting a lvl synched Thanaton, and while wondering *** you leveled all the way to 49-50 just to come back at level 16 to fight a lvl 16 mob. However, you don't worry about that for long because as you soon realize, half your abilities no longer work(you're lvl synched remember), and your carefully laid out keybinds fail you and, after achieveing 49-50 lvls you get pwned on the first go round with a lvl 16 toon.

 

 

Simple logic will tell you that anything other than an optional level synch so that you can help your friend, is simply not going to happen.

[TUXs]

Let me give you one class story reason why enforced level synching isn't going to happen.

 

 

Your dreaded Sith assassin has just kicked the snot out of a lvl 50 Darth Thanaton. He jets off to Korriban to meet with the Dark Council, you pursue...

 

 

What happens when you get there is this:

 

 

Option 1: BW does its normal bang up job of checking for bugs and your lvl synched toon walks in and gets pwned by Thanaton again and again and again and again(repeating of course). Now because BW is taking a vaca from launch until Feb, there is 8 weeks in which this broken mechanic will not be fixed.

 

Option 2: You walk in and find yourself now fighting a lvl synched Thanaton, and while wondering *** you leveled all the way to 49-50 just to come back at level 16 to fight a lvl 16 mob. However, you don't worry about that for long because as you soon realize, half your abilities no longer work(you're lvl synched remember), and your carefully laid out keybinds fail you and, after achieveing 49-50 lvls you get pwned on the first go round with a lvl 16 toon.

 

 

Simple logic will tell you that anything other than an optional level synch so that you can help your friend, is simply not going to happen.

 

Great points...but you assume logic and Bioware go together...they've made far too many major gaffs for me to ever believe they're "logical" about anything.

[Urantia]

Great points...but you assume logic and Bioware go together...they've made far too many major gaffs for me to ever believe they're "logical" about anything.

 

Very true. On one hand they make some decent stories that provoke certain emotions like a real life situation. Then on the other hand completely forget human nature and how players will really play their game. In general they have such a huge lack of foresight it is beyond belief. People can argue they have limited time to do stuff, but that is no excuse in my book. Way too may issues, glitches, and unintended side effects to count. What they need on staff there is a criminologist, a human behavior specialist, and a psychologist {maybe a psychiatrist to prescribe them the right meds lol}to round it out lol.

[Zakua]

So, in other words, functionally the same as making it mandatory, since coming back once you've levelled/geared enough to run Flashpoints solo in order to get the cool cosmetic doo-dads without having to deal with other players throwing their own crap at the walls is one of the main reasons people bother to do it.

 

I genuinely don't get why some people are so eager to police everyone else's fun; if you want to run every FP at-level and in a group, do it, nobody has ever been stopping you and nobody is proposing to stop you in future. For me, I've been playing MMOs for over a decade, the novelty of grouping has well & truly worn off, all it means to me now is delays & waiting followed by inevitable frustration, punctuated by occasional frothing lunatic rage if you move even one iota outside the mandated roles & actions some mini-dictator manchild has decided your class/AC/spec must adhere to. Is every group a cesspit? Of course not, but I only have so much free time, I don't see why I should have to gamble on whether or not my evening of fun will actually be fun just to get a damn mount or wall decoration made of pixels for my online dollhouse.

 

You should post all the time, everywhere. I love you haha!

[Shipwright]

They will simply really irritate lots of people if this goes live with no option/no choice.

 

Doesn't really upset me, but if there is no choice in the matter, they will really turn off a lot of people. It's a pretty radical change to make to a game that has been around this long.

 

The option would, to me, be great. Rift has it, and I used it often when i still played ( the game has some things i like but overall does not hold my interest).

 

Can't see lack of choice as a good thing. This won't change anyone's mind of course.

[Upirlikhyi]

Decorations from the less frequently run FPs (e.g., Lost Island, Directive 7) sell for decent creds on the GTN.

 

so kinda a dumb question but as i have never gone back to solo a fp or a hm please enlighten me on how i tell the difference just walking in

[Jeweledleah]

so kinda a dumb question but as i have never gone back to solo a fp or a hm please enlighten me on how i tell the difference just walking in

 

you cannot just walk in. you need to pick up the quest at a nearby quest giver, its usualy super short intro and THEN you get to select the mode. if you have done Rishi storyline = its kinda like picking up flashpoint intro there. so you just select the difficulty (so that it sets it) and THEN walk in.

 

its different with ops, which you set the difficulty for from the group dropdown menu on your portrait (only group leader can do that)

 

and decoration are pretty much a primary reason I solo those nowadays. I don't farm them to sell, but rather for personal use, but in part - I farm them BECAUSE they sell for quite a bit on GTN (I'd rather farm them via flashpoints than try to farm credits to buy them, soloing flashpoints I find to be more fun) and because winning a roll in a group is always a crapshoot (and I almost never win)

 

solo mods? existing ones drop pretty much nothing. I consider myself lucky if I get those relic thingies to drop off the last boss (from Korriban and Tython - out of over a dozen characters? happened once)

 

its highly unlikely that they will change drops for solo modes. its more likely that all the new solo modes will work the same as existing solo modes work nowadays. which is great for seeing the story. not so great if you want something out of a flashpoint. the only way I could more or less deal with mandatory down-scaling if each killed boss drops some sort of currency for every person (along with commendations/pardon - crystals in expansion) that can then be exchanged for rewards at the vendors (with those vendors selling rng flashpoint drops) - reducing some of that rng nonsense at least somewhat. still not ideal, but at least workable.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Jeweledleah

[Upirlikhyi]

you cannot just walk in. you need to pick up the quest at a nearby quest giver, its usualy super short intro and THEN you get to select the mode. if you have done Rishi storyline = its kinda like picking up flashpoint intro there. so you just select the difficulty (so that it sets it) and THEN walk in.

 

its different with ops, which you set the difficulty for from the group dropdown menu on your portrait (only group leader can do that)

 

and decoration are pretty much a primary reason I solo those nowadays. I don't farm them to sell, but rather for personal use, but in part - I farm them BECAUSE they sell for quite a bit on GTN (I'd rather farm them via flashpoints than try to farm credits to buy them, soloing flashpoints I find to be more fun) and because winning a roll in a group is always a crapshoot (and I almost never win)

 

solo mods? existing ones drop pretty much nothing. I consider myself lucky if I get those relic thingies to drop off the last boss (from Korriban and Tython - out of over a dozen characters? happened once)

 

i did the quest selected start hard mode and the mobs seem the same as normal was wondering if there was something on the map that would show it

 

but ty

[Jeweledleah]

i did the quest selected start hard mode and the mobs seem the same as normal was wondering if there was something on the map that would show it

 

but ty

 

on a map? not really. I mean... for flashpoints that are low level in storymode, you will see the difference in mob level. like... Foundry will have mid 30ties in normal mode, lvl 50ties in hardmode.

 

you CAN see which difficulty you have selected based on a symbol on instance portal. normal mode is just transparent purple barrier. hardmode is the same symbol as elite mobs in a while. nightmare mode (for ops only) has the skull. I... think ops might have a symbol on a side of the minimap? not sure if flashpoints do

 

just tried to do a quick search if someone maybe screenshotted it, but couldn't find it and would have to log into the game to screenshot it myself. which can take a few

[Upirlikhyi]

on a map? not really. I mean... for flashpoints that are low level in storymode, you will see the difference in mob level. like... Foundry will have mid 30ties in normal mode, lvl 50ties in hardmode.

 

you CAN see which difficulty you have selected based on a symbol on instance portal. normal mode is just transparent purple barrier. hardmode is the same symbol as elite mobs in a while. nightmare mode (for ops only) has the skull. I... think ops might have a symbol on a side of the minimap? not sure if flashpoints do

 

just tried to do a quick search if someone maybe screenshotted it, but couldn't find it and would have to log into the game to screenshot it myself. which can take a few

 

tyvm...there was a icon on the barrier and got to a boss and downed it and it is hard mode.....

 

again thank you

[Jeweledleah]

tyvm...there was a icon on the barrier and got to a boss and downed it and it is hard mode.....

 

again thank you

 

no problem at all! oh and just hopped in and the only way I can see for sure is to check your quest log. when you pick up a quest - it will say in your log whether its hard or normal

[MeNaCe-NZ]

So, in other words, functionally the same as making it mandatory, since coming back once you've levelled/geared enough to run Flashpoints solo in order to get the cool cosmetic doo-dads without having to deal with other players throwing their own crap at the walls is one of the main reasons people bother to do it.

 

I genuinely don't get why some people are so eager to police everyone else's fun; if you want to run every FP at-level and in a group, do it, nobody has ever been stopping you and nobody is proposing to stop you in future. For me, I've been playing MMOs for over a decade, the novelty of grouping has well & truly worn off, all it means to me now is delays & waiting followed by inevitable frustration, punctuated by occasional frothing lunatic rage if you move even one iota outside the mandated roles & actions some mini-dictator manchild has decided your class/AC/spec must adhere to. Is every group a cesspit? Of course not, but I only have so much free time, I don't see why I should have to gamble on whether or not my evening of fun will actually be fun just to get a damn mount or wall decoration made of pixels for my online dollhouse.

 

Right so these rewards that were given based on a CHALLENGE should just be given to you because you chose or couldn't do it when it was actually challenging? ********.

 

If you want to run the content over leveled to see what it's all about then sweet, you can do that with an optional setting. Just don't be expected to be rewarded for effectively doing nothing challenging what so ever.

[Max_Killjoy]

Exactly. And then people wonder why they are bored. lol.

 

I'll be MORE bored if forced downscaling goes live.

[MandFlurry]

Great points...but you assume logic and Bioware go together...they've made far too many major gaffs for me to ever believe they're "logical" about anything.

 

Yeah if EAWare ever went on Logic, this game would be a lot better. Not just Story-wise, but also Class-wise also.

[Jeweledleah]

Right so these rewards that were given based on a CHALLENGE should just be given to you because you chose or couldn't do it when it was actually challenging? ********.

 

If you want to run the content over leveled to see what it's all about then sweet, you can do that with an optional setting. Just don't be expected to be rewarded for effectively doing nothing challenging what so ever.

 

the reward for doing content when its relevant? is achievements and titles. as well as acess to other rewards long before people who are not "up to the challenge" many a progression guild made plenty of credits for their vaults by selling hard to get rewards while they are still super rare.

 

however. eventually.. things become less relevant and everyone else can catch up. kinda like.... oh I don't know expansions that early adopters paid $30 (or 40 in case you bought hutt cartel without subscribing) for, will be free for all subscribers on October 27 (or 20th if you are in early acess) not to mention - Rise of the Hutt Cartel is ALREADY free to subscribers

 

so why, all of a sudden are we going to remove this option to get something much later then everyone else, but with more ease from people.. exactly? becasue you said so? becasue you just cannot bear it for someone else to get what you have, ever without having to go through the same exact difficulties, no matter how long content was out?

 

what is this petty reasoning?

 

do you think we should just rewind back the progress? becasue that's what it sounds like.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

the reward for doing content when its relevant? is achievements and titles. as well as acess to other rewards long before people who are not "up to the challenge"

many a progression guild made plenty of credits for their vaults by selling hard to get rewards while they are still super rare.

 

You said relevant? I said challenging. You can be an indestructible over leveled force and it can still be relevant to you if you want to go and see the story or experience the content. Doesn't mean you have to be rewarded for doing it does it?

 

Why do you also need to muddy the waters by adding a "time" factor to it? It doesn't matter if it's new or old content - you pass a challenge you get rewarded for it.

Note that the concept of having the scaling in place also changes the rewards to be relevant to your current level. Or so goes the more or less confirmed rumours that push these topics through.

 

As for guilds ... so what? They did challenging content many others couldn't so yes they got rewarded for that.

 

How is anything you are saying a logical argument for "please let me have these free rewards because none of the trash/bosses can actually damage me now".

 

however. eventually.. things become less relevant and everyone else can catch up. kinda like.... oh I don't know expansions that early adopters paid $30 (or 40 in case you bought hutt cartel without subscribing) for, will be free for all subscribers on October 27 (or 20th if you are in early acess) not to mention - Rise of the Hutt Cartel is ALREADY free to subscribers

 

Huh? What does that have to do with level sync?

 

so why, all of a sudden are we going to remove this option to get something much later then everyone else, but with more ease from people.. exactly? becasue you said so? becasue you just cannot bear it for someone else to get what you have, ever without having to go through the same exact difficulties, no matter how long content was out?

 

Easy - hard ... you're still getting it later than everyone else if you choose to do it 2 years later ... level sync doesn't change. You're really not seeming to make much sense to the context of the argument I am making especially when you start talking about giving the expansions to subs for free ... that has nothing to do with level sync.

 

Are you asking me why shouldn't people be able to cakewalk challenging content to basically get free rewards? Well because they are basically getting free rewards. If you didn't EARN it then what entitlement do you have to just be given it? Because someone else already has it? Boo hoo.

 

what is this petty reasoning?

 

Petty reasoning is thinking you should be entitled to getting a reward that someone else has without putting in any effort solely because someone else already has it and you think it's unfair that they have it and you don't.

 

Nothing is of course stopping you getting the rewards by turning on level sync, if you actually just want to experience the content you turn off level sync and get no rewards.

 

do you think we should just rewind back the progress? becasue that's what it sounds like.

 

What progress? The progress of you running a heroic on Korriban and ignoring all challenge and/or mechaincs if they apply entirely so you can get a reward you've done nothing to earn?

 

Or do you mean because you're the big bad sith now it should be easy? Well you see since those planets are effectively a moment in time you are travelling back to then likewise should your strength be more or less dialed back to that time if you want to look at it that way.

 

Either way - you want rewards you do a challenge and face it synced to that level. If you want to just experience it then feel free to cake walk it, no one is stopping you but I don't see where it was written you would have to be rewarded for it.

 

It's also worth noting again to anyone following that the rewards you get from level sync aren't the same that you would get now running content, they would be level appropriate.

What this means for decorations etc. *shrug* probably nothing, it's mostly the drops from the heroics and the planets themselves we are talking here.