Please make level scaling optional in KotFE

[Shwarzchild]

Shhh now.

 

Sensible facts have no place here; people want to accuse others of being entitled.

 

 

All The Best

 

I think yours and his idea of what a game mechanic or a feature is a little misplaced. But hey. All the best.

[Khevar]

I think yours and his idea of what a game mechanic or a feature is a little misplaced. But hey. All the best.

So .... you don't think it's a feature ... that makes it an exploit or a bug?

 

HAHAH!! "Better not get achievements while overleveled, people! You can get banned for exploiting!"

 

Edited September 17, 2015 by Khevar

[Transcendent]

To your points. I understand, but it is still an entitled approach to sit there and say well I'm not hurting anyone so I should be able to do x or y or z even though that game mode isn't meant to be played that way.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, there are some things in the game that you still require a group to complete the content on (I wouldn't have got my Wings of the Architect any other way). However what I am saying, the general gist of it can be summed up as;

 

"Give players more options and not LESS options".

 

Removing options, removes content for those players. Less content as a general rule will mean bored players who have no reason to play the game or subscribe. BioWare should have learned this one from their launch of SWTOR.

 

One would hope anyway.

[Max_Killjoy]

In these threads, these "discussions" it never ceases to make me wonder about some players, how vehemently they're concerned about what other players do in the game, even when it has no effect on them.

 

"End game is for group content, if you're still doing solo content, you're doing it wrong."

"You shouldn't be going back to do lower-level content, that's not what it was intended for."

"Don't build *your* character that way, it won't work in the content that *I* like to do."

"Why would want to waste time gearing your companions?"

"Why do you want BiS mods if you're not doing NiM Ops?"

 

Etc, etc, etc.

[TUXs]

My rebuttal would be that end game is for group content/ mmo features. So in the hybrid mmo style that this game gives us the end game represents the mmo portion. For story driven players their options are to:

1) create a new character and level him through the story that's provided.

2) Dailies (Yavin has no heroics, Rishi has no heroics, Ziost has no Heroics, CZ has a heroic 2 which is you and your companion, Illum has a heroic 2 for you and your companion. A player can just ignore the heroic 4 on Section X if they wanted to or they could use that as a )

3) Do the story of Makeb Yavin and Rishi and Ziost.

4) Can do the daily solo mode shadow of revan flashpoints by picking them up from the quest givers, and when 4.0 drops as you've said previously there will be solo modes of a lot more flashpoints.

 

So there is solo content, but since the end game is more tailored towards the MMO crowd their options are limited. Being a solo player in an MMO is a hard position to put yourself in to be honest. It's literally squeezing the square into the round hole as best you can. This game does have a lot for solo players to get themselves into. The game is pretty well balanced to at least give something to everyone in some fashion.

 

I guess I don't quite understand your position on this...

 

You claimed that group content isn't meant to be solo'd and that end game content is geared towards groups, but then you add the caveat, "unless there's a solo mode for it"...those 2 ideas conflict. FPs are all being made soloable, yet you seem to take issue with players who are upset that they won't be able to solo H2 and H4's any longer? You even go so far as to call them "entitled" for wanting to continue to have the freedom to beat older content once they've over leveled it.

 

So...how exactly are players "entitled" when expressing their displeasure about some auto leveling mechanic, when even YOU acknowledge that this game is a hybrid that appeals to solo and groups of players?

 

If anything, this entire expansion is moving AWAY from group content and seems to be aimed directly at the solo player...minus Ops and auto leveling adjustments...If this whole auto scaling thing is real, I have to question whether or not Bioware has any concept of what they're actually doing, or if it's 2 different departments going in completely opposite directions. The auto scaling thing just goes against everything else 4.0 stands for, so much so that I have no doubt that somebody at Bioware is overlooking how nonsensical the whole thing is (given what 4.0 is).

[TUXs]

In these threads, these "discussions" it never ceases to make me wonder about some players, how vehemently they're concerned about what other players do in the game, even when it has no effect on them.

 

"End game is for group content, if you're still doing solo content, you're doing it wrong."

"You shouldn't be going back to do lower-level content, that's not what it was intended for."

"Don't build *your* character that way, it won't work in the content that *I* like to do."

"Why would want to waste time gearing your companions?"

"Why do you want BiS mods if you're not doing NiM Ops?"

 

Etc, etc, etc.

So freaking true Max.

 

I don't care what anyone else is doing (within the rules of course), I just want them to have fun and do whatever keeps them playing.

[Shwarzchild]

Oh don't get me wrong, there are some things in the game that you still require a group to complete the content on (I wouldn't have got my Wings of the Architect any other way). However what I am saying, the general gist of it can be summed up as;

 

"Give players more options and not LESS options".

 

Removing options, removes content for those players. Less content as a general rule will mean bored players who have no reason to play the game or subscribe. BioWare should have learned this one from their launch of SWTOR.

 

One would hope anyway.

 

I think we definitely agree on the give players more options. I think in Kotfe that's exactly what bioware is aiming to do. Increasing the amount of solo mode flashpoints available, or releasing story driven single player chapters monthly to rescaling the old operations to level giving the end game players more than 2 viable operations to play. My main point is that since this is a hybrid mmo it needs to cater to everyone. Rescaling group content to make sure that the group minded players have their relevant slice of pie is a good thing, and if a solo only player is upset about that then my suggestion is to step out of their comfort zone, and learn that section of the game. If they like it great, and if they don't oh well. At least they gave it a chance. It's definitely not like Bioware isn't catering to them in a large way with KoTFE.

[Shwarzchild]

I guess I don't quite understand your position on this...

 

You claimed that group content isn't meant to be solo'd and that end game content is geared towards groups, but then you add the caveat, "unless there's a solo mode for it"...those 2 ideas conflict. FPs are all being made soloable, yet you seem to take issue with players who are upset that they won't be able to solo H2 and H4's any longer? You even go so far as to call them "entitled" for wanting to continue to have the freedom to beat older content once they've over leveled it.

 

So...how exactly are players "entitled" when expressing their displeasure about some auto leveling mechanic, when even YOU acknowledge that this game is a hybrid that appeals to solo and groups of players?

 

If anything, this entire expansion is moving AWAY from group content and seems to be aimed directly at the solo player...minus Ops and auto leveling adjustments...If this whole auto scaling thing is real, I have to question whether or not Bioware has any concept of what they're actually doing, or if it's 2 different departments going in completely opposite directions. The auto scaling thing just goes against everything else 4.0 stands for, so much so that I have no doubt that somebody at Bioware is overlooking how nonsensical the whole thing is (given what 4.0 is).

 

I think it is an entitled attitude to have when you are soloing content intended for groups (those marked with group, h4, operations, group titled flashpoints) and then complaining that content is being rescaled so that the group aspect of it becomes viable again for group minded players. If there is a solo mode available then solo players can do that, go crazy, express as much opinion as they feel necessary. But, when they complain about group content becoming viable again for players who do group content I don't see how their opinion can come off as anything but "well I want to have my cake and eat it too" to a degree seeing as how that content isn't for specifically them. Because they found a work around i.e solo-ing by over leveling still doesn't mean that that group content shouldn't be improved for the players who want it to done via a group. If the solo player wants to continue to do that group content, they need to just step out of their comfort zone and play that content the way it was meant to be played originally. (Sorry I'm trying to type and think and all that without coffee. Harder and harder as the day goes on.)

[IanArgent]

My wife and I just "roflstomped" Taral V (for the story, basically, though I got a nifty deco out of it). I would have enjoyed it a little more with some challenge. As it was, I basically tossed Forcequake for an hour.

 

It's a pipe dream, but some support for paired play would be nice

[Heat-Wave]

If their roflstomping doesn't affect the greater game, I say leave them to it. I've enjoyed being able to run through a prior FP to 'collect' equipment I had wanted but was unable to obtain when it was level appropriate. Especially with the addition now of being able to modify your cosmetic appearance. I ran through Athis SOOOOO many times just to try to complete a set because I wanted the look.

 

If you're in a FP with me and you want something for the armor shell, rather than stats...

 

May I suggest you just speak up at the start and say, "hey, I'm here because I want some specific armor shells for the appearance and I'll be rolling need on them, I will PASS on everything else to be fair about it. If this is a problem, lets work it out now, I want to be fair.".

 

My reply to that would be, "thanks for saying something, need what you need, hope you get what you want."

 

If people talk to me, I'm amazingly accommodating to things. What upsets me is when people run off and randomly do stuff without talking at all.

 

To be honest, if I see someone "need" on what I personally consider to be "crap gear", then I raise an eyebrow. I honestly often don't think about the shell itself, since I wear exclusively CM armor on all my toons. If you remind me about the appearance factor, then I'm like, "oh right, people do that! ok, cool, thanks for saying something, go for it."

 

Note: The same applies for companion gear, if you actually need a useful drop for a companion, ask first... If we're in a HM 60 FP and 192 gear drops from the bonus boss that your companion REALLY can use, just say, "hey, my companion needs that, does anyone mind if I need it?" 99% of the time, my answer is "need away, have fun". I would only object if my toon itself directly needed that gear, otherwise it is all yours.

 

Communication!

[Heat-Wave]

The entitlement in this thread is astounding.

 

Group content isn't meant to be solo'd unless a solo version is available.

 

Are you SO sure about that?

 

Go run False Emperor solo... at one point, rather than Emperor Malgus saying, "one of you has vowed to join the new Empire", he instead says, "Facing me alone, how bold, and foolish..."

 

So there is dialog specific to doing some flashpoints solo vs in a group. So you can't say that it isn't intended.

[Shwarzchild]

So .... you don't think it's a feature ... that makes it an exploit or a bug?

 

HAHAH!! "Better not get achievements while overleveled, people! You can get banned for exploiting!"

 

 

You've totally missed the point I'm trying to make. And, since I'm not well spoken enough I doubt I can find a way to explain it appropriately.

 

It's a matter of content being tailored for different audiences in game. There's nothing wrong with it, and it's how this game is meant to be since it's a hybrid of sorts. Just because we can do certain things now doesn't mean that's how they were intended to be used originally. With Kotfe they're getting things back to the way they were intended. They're also adding more things for the solo or story driven player since they are right now at a loss when it comes to content offered. Overall though, as I've said a few times, if a player finds themselves enjoying being a solo only player, but wants to get something from a group pve mission then they just need to give that group based content a chance. Same thing with pvp, or anything really. Not all content is going to be tailored for each player, and I think it's wrong to sit back and complain about content that is tailored for a different audience.

[Shwarzchild]

Are you SO sure about that?

 

Go run False Emperor solo... at one point, rather than Emperor Malgus saying, "one of you has vowed to join the new Empire", he instead says, "Facing me alone, how bold, and foolish..."

 

So there is dialog specific to doing some flashpoints solo vs in a group. So you can't say that it isn't intended.

 

Now that's interesting. Your point is well taken.

[Heat-Wave]

If old content isn't intended to be able to be solo'd at higher levels then why is there a game mechanic that makes low level mobs miss you 99% of the time? If it wasn't intended then why did they make it so gosh darn easy to do, for the past 3.5 years? Intended or not, after 3.5 years it's a feature. I'm not seeing any good arguments for removing it either.

 

^ This...

 

After playing Lost Island Hard Mode back pre-2.0, being able to solo it today with ease is a special kind of satisfaction!

 

I don't mind a lvl 65 version of Lost Island, it might be interesting... but don't remove the lvl 50 version of it in the process...

[Heat-Wave]

H2s and H4s are optional, not required.

if all you care about it solo content, they will just reroll a new toon or quit once they've done everything. People don't play MMOs for solo content, this game being a huge exception with the story lines. Once they've absorbed all of it they want, they will most likely leave, or wait for another expansion and new solo content.

 

Not for the weekly they aren't, and dailies aren't worth running without tagging the weekly at the same time...

 

The +2 on Oricon has been nice to run from time to time since 3.0 dropped. Yes, it was doable solo during 2.0, but rough and a lot of people couldn't. Today it is pretty easy and that is a nice way to burn time while waiting for PvP to pop or waiting to form an ops group.

 

Make it hard again by raising all the dailies to 65 and not only will Oricon become deserted, but there won't be a place to burn time killing stuff while waiting for PvP or Ops to happen...

 

Note: If you're running dailies without tagging the weekly and ignore the heroic and bonus missions, you owe it to yourself to do the math on the return on time investment for that, vs. doing the whole thing. You might be surprised.

[TUXs]

Are you SO sure about that?

 

Go run False Emperor solo... at one point, rather than Emperor Malgus saying, "one of you has vowed to join the new Empire", he instead says, "Facing me alone, how bold, and foolish..."

 

So there is dialog specific to doing some flashpoints solo vs in a group. So you can't say that it isn't intended.

Whoa...very interesting!

[Heat-Wave]

Had I not put that initial sentence in there I don't think you would be able to label me entitled. To your points. I understand, but it is still an entitled approach to sit there and say well I'm not hurting anyone so I should be able to do x or y or z even though that game mode isn't meant to be played that way. A Heroic 4 is meant to be played with 4 players.

 

At the of the day, this is not a life changing or moral argument, this is a game, run by a for-profit business.

 

What is the business case for removing options that existing PAYING customers are enjoying?

[Reno_Tarshil]

Are you SO sure about that?

 

Go run False Emperor solo... at one point, rather than Emperor Malgus saying, "one of you has vowed to join the new Empire", he instead says, "Facing me alone, how bold, and foolish..."

 

So there is dialog specific to doing some flashpoints solo vs in a group. So you can't say that it isn't intended.

 

Also if you are doing FE and have HK with you there will be a bit of banter before the HK fight according to my guildie.

[Heat-Wave]

In these threads, these "discussions" it never ceases to make me wonder about some players, how vehemently they're concerned about what other players do in the game, even when it has no effect on them.

 

"End game is for group content, if you're still doing solo content, you're doing it wrong."

"You shouldn't be going back to do lower-level content, that's not what it was intended for."

"Don't build *your* character that way, it won't work in the content that *I* like to do."

"Why would want to waste time gearing your companions?"

"Why do you want BiS mods if you're not doing NiM Ops?"

 

Etc, etc, etc.

 

The whole world (the real world) is filled with people who are worried about what everyone else is doing. Where do you think most of the violence and war comes from in the world?

 

What other people do that doesn't hurt me is... wait for it... "none of my friggin business"...

[Shwarzchild]

At the of the day, this is not a life changing or moral argument, this is a game, run by a for-profit business.

 

What is the business case for removing options that existing PAYING customers are enjoying?

 

It's to keep other paying customers from leaving. Namely, their attempt at keeping their pve group crowd. With Kotfe don't forget their doing a lot for solo and story driven players. They're thinking the solo and story players will still pay since they're being taken care of. The group minded people may take their money elsewhere.

[Heat-Wave]

Also if you are doing FE and have HK with you there will be a bit of banter before the HK fight according to my guildie.

 

^ That is another good example...

 

You couldn't have HK out in a "group" for that FP, so clearly they had planned for situations where you're in something less than a full group.

 

Honestly, I'd love to see "2 player" versions of more stuff. I play with my family, it would be nice to be able to do flashpoints more often with 2 or 3 people.

 

2+2, 2 players, 2 companions, 1 goal... TOTAL VICTORY!!!

[Heat-Wave]

It's to keep other paying customers from leaving. Namely, their attempt at keeping their pve group crowd. With Kotfe don't forget their doing a lot for solo and story driven players. They're thinking the solo and story players will still pay since they're being taken care of. The group minded people may take their money elsewhere.

 

Fair enough...

 

Except that the "new story" amounts to an hour or two a month... for the sub, it isn't enough if that is the only draw...

 

---

 

In any case, let me be totally clear... I LIKE that we're going to have more options for stuff at lvl 65, this is a "good thing". When 3.0 launched, there was WAY TOO LITTLE TO DO, this was talked about endlessly on the forums. We went from having more than a dozen things to queue for to just a handful.

 

That being said, why not leave both options? Sure, have Lost Island be a lvl 65 tactical and HM FP... but why remove the lvl 50 version of it?

 

How hard would it be to put a "legacy flashpoint vendor" on the fleet with all the old content" so that people who want to see and try everything can go run them as they were?

 

Sure, the lvl 50 version will still drop the old junk, it doesn't have to reward the lvl 65 stuff that the new versions do... but it doesn't need to be removed outright.

[Transcendent]

Overall though, as I've said a few times, if a player finds themselves enjoying being a solo only player, but wants to get something from a group pve mission then they just need to give that group based content a chance.

 

This is where it falls apart though.

 

KotFE will be 4.0. We're what, nearly 4 years into the game now. The lack of content in some areas means players have adapted their playstyles to match what the game has to offer. Aside from some exceptions you can pretty much play most of the content solo once you are into the next expansion and have hit level cap and geared up (direct result of long cycles between content updates).

 

Absolutely there are some exceptions to this, such as chasing NiM operations achievements, some players can only manage this once they are 5 levels above as well as geared - content scaling will completely remove this group content from those players as they simply will not be able to manage it. Equally said, I don't expect BioWare to start "dumbing down" operations to cater for those players who can only manage those operations once they are past the level cap. So in effect BioWare with content scaling are removing content for those players.

 

It isn't always case of players not wanting to group up to do content, some of it is only manageable once at a certain stage in levelling. It's been like this for nearly 4 years.

 

KotFE with content scaling without an option to turn it off, removes content. Period.

 

I don't think I can explain it to you any more clearly than that.

[CloudCastle]

One of my favorite things to do is run old level 50 HM's solo. I'm going to miss this terribly and am having a hard time not feeling down about it. Most of them feel so epic, but even more so when you are by yourself and "taking on the world" as it were. It felt like a nice reward for outleveling the content. And I got chills the first time Malgus spoke to me personally when I did False Emperor. It was an amazing addition and I was thrilled that the devs had actually thought to code in a dialog for a solo player.

 

Part of what makes it so fun though is knowing that you are doing the original content and not a "special solo version." I liked remembering how hard Malgus was the first time I ran it in a group and marveling at how I could do the exact same quest on my own now. I like getting the decorations and knowing that the drop is 100% mine and not a random roll chance. And I like getting the occasional surprise award like one of the special speeders. Right now the solo version of the FP's (Forged Allainces) don't have these things.

 

I'm concerned about the rumors that open world planets will also be "debolstered." There is publicly available BW-sanctioned evidence that supports this possibility, so I don't think the rumors are unfounded, even if you choose to watch only official channels. We already know from announcements that:

 

1) Old side quests will be "repurposed" for something at level 65.

2) Our companions will be scattered throughout the galaxy (aka the old planets) and we will have to track them down.

3) This new "alliance" system will be like a kind of reputation grind that will be required if we want to get our old companions back.

 

So...is this their way of trying to make old content relevant and challenging again to level 65's?

 

Only thing is, I wonder if BW has forgotten that one of the prime tenets of playing an MMO is that players want to feel like they are progressing. People like seeing the "reward" of going back to old planets and kicking butt like the heroes they now are. People also don't want to be bothered with the "grind" of getting knocked off their speeder every two seconds to fight groups of mobs on their way somewhere. People enjoy being able to go back to old Heroics and solo them.

 

So there's all this effort now going towards making the game more solo-friendly and less grindly...yet if this change is true, it represents a step backward towards the exact opposite result. No more soloing heroics. No more racing through mobs while traveling across planet. It's back to grouping and grinding on the old planets again. This confuses me. I hope it's not true.

[Khevar]

You've totally missed the point I'm trying to make. And, since I'm not well spoken enough I doubt I can find a way to explain it appropriately.

 

It's a matter of content being tailored for different audiences in game. There's nothing wrong with it, and it's how this game is meant to be since it's a hybrid of sorts. Just because we can do certain things now doesn't mean that's how they were intended to be used originally. With Kotfe they're getting things back to the way they were intended. They're also adding more things for the solo or story driven player since they are right now at a loss when it comes to content offered. Overall though, as I've said a few times, if a player finds themselves enjoying being a solo only player, but wants to get something from a group pve mission then they just need to give that group based content a chance. Same thing with pvp, or anything really. Not all content is going to be tailored for each player, and I think it's wrong to sit back and complain about content that is tailored for a different audience.

For what it's worth, your post here communicates just fine -- I follow what you're saying.

 

Now me personally? I'm in the "wait and see" camp. But I do have some ideas about how I'd LIKE it to work:

 

1. Planetary scaling only in a group. Higher level players "downbolstered" to match planet level.

2. No abilities are lost -- just a % reduction of stats.

3. Such scaling would be based purely on level. Twinked toon w/endgame gear STILL overpowered.

4. H4s properly added to the group finder with auto-teleport to the destination and auto-teleport back afterword.

If THIS were the implantation of planetary scaling? It would be FREAKING AWESOME and something that should have always been in the game since day one.

 

My fear, however, is that we will instead get this:

 

a. Scaling happens because you visit a planet, no way around it.

b. Scaling will work by putting a "stat ceiling" based on whatever planet you're on. Gear doesn't matter.

c. H4s will still require shlepping to and from the location.

This implantation would be terrible, IMO.

 

Time will tell.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Khevar