Please make level scaling optional in KotFE

[DarthSpuds]

If I want "a challenge" I'll go to an area or whatever that offers it.

 

If I'm going to a level 20 place with my level 60 character, it's not for "a challenge".

 

^ This.

 

Most level 60's heading to lower level zones are looking to complete achievements.

 

All The Best

[MisterBlackJack]

If I want "a challenge" I'll go to an area or whatever that offers it.

 

If I'm going to a level 20 place with my level 60 character, it's not for "a challenge".

 

It's not just about the challenge, it's also about the fact that it appears they want to add NEW content on old planets without having to scale everything up to max level only to be made irrelevant again 6 months later

[Transcendent]

I can tell you what's more enjoying. Fighting through a huge mob of enemies, using all the powers of the force, or your skills with a blaster, to take them all down and ultimately come out on top. That's a far better for me than just one hitting everything. It keeps me engaged and on my toes.

 

Which is fine for new content while you are levelling. Going back to a planet you've already done every single quest on and having to fight, when all you've gone there for is to finish some achievements off that you couldn't while at level? Yeah, that isn't progression.

 

I play an MMO, and level my character for progression. Not to have stuff taken away from me that I've earned, enabling me to do things I couldn't previously.

 

The only, and this is the only thing I don't mind scaling to level on a planet is a world boss. If you have to group up to kill a world boss, then bolster the low level players to the max level player in the group - this isn't rocket science. You don't take things away that have been earned. All that shiny new gear you've just grinded weeks for? Yeah it's worthless if you go back to that planet now. All that time you spent levelling up? Yeah that's also worthless if you go back to the planet now?

 

Who would want that? Oh that's right, the players who only ever play when the servers are not quiet - try it when there are only 10 people on a planet and see how far you get. Heck, even if I go back to a planet now I don't go help randoms all the time - I'm there for a specific reason. Equally if I was going back there and scaled down? You know what? I'm still not going to go help the randoms all the time - I'm there for a specific reason.

 

So the point of scaling on a planet is, pretty pointless. All it achieves is to piss off the players that have had something taken away from them. It doesn't automatically mean you're going to get that group, because players are not always going to be interested in helping randoms.

 

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but so is everyone else that really dislikes the thought of being downscaled, be it in a flashpoint / operation or on a planet. I certainly can see the benefits of having flashpoints scaled for queue times - but I want the option to continue soloing them with the very same rewards - otherwise it's taking something away from the players again.

 

Removing content is beyond stupid game design.

[Rhyltran]

I guess what I am trying to say is that it appears Bioware no longer share that philosophy, instead want to adapt a concept where all group content will be made relevant regardless of level. It's not like I hear the arguments you and others are making, I just also am looking at the devs perspective and their ultimate endgame with this change, which I believe is to make more group content relevant but also make it easier to create new content without the worry of having it go out of date in 6 months. The pros with this decision (for the many) out way the cons (the one) in my opinion. I hope it's implemented. There will be an adjustment period, I know that. Nevertheless, after thinking about it throughout this weekend, I believe this is the best decision for the game in the long run.

 

Which makes sense from the flashpoint perspective. It doesn't make sense from the planetary perspective. It doesn't make sense for it not to be optional. Let me make it clear like many in this thread have and we're not alone. Do you really think with the downscaling any of us are actually going to go back to these planets now to do them? Do you think we're going to somehow go back to korriban and go "Crap. I just went down to level 17. Let me find a group."?

 

The only time people went to lower level areas was to farm easy achievements because they could steam roll it. As a "Well, I got nothing better to do my guild isn't on to run ops." so they go to an area to slaughter things for the achievement. Now let's assume for a moment they still want those achievements. Let's assume even with the down level they feel it's worth it. Do you think they're going to ask for a group? No. They won't especially since they're still strong enough to do it solo (it'll take longer) and most people in the area aren't people doing the same thing. Most are actually in it to level up.

 

So then comes the question what's the point? The very occasional boss run? Look, even when the game first came out and the lower level areas were crawling with hundreds of people trying to level up only a fraction of those even bothered to group. Now that most people in those areas are leveling their 4th to 5th character do you think they're even more likely to group? I've played enough mmo's to know how people generally think. This isn't going to increase group content at lower levels. In fact it's going to make it LESS likely for those who are higher levels from coming back.

 

I'm not going to quit over this but you won't see me running back to Dromund Kaas after this. I have literally no point now. The achievements now take too long to be worth it and the areas I might want to explore is too tedious to even be worth the bother. Sure that's just me but do you really think the majority of higher level people are going to think along the lines of "Cool! I downscale!? Awesome! I'm going back to do this with other people!" No they won't. Why would they? Most high levels sit in fleet. They will still be sitting in fleet and as someone else mentioned if you see high levels in lower level areas it isn't for a challenge.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Tahra]

When you have a drastic difference like this case, the easier path WILL ALWAYS be taken.

 

Yes because it's the better choice. The other option is bad.

 

I can accept that there's people who WOULD make that choice, but that doesn't mean I have to be punished for that and forced into that choice.

 

There's always solutions to the problem you described. Scaled down people could be put into a seperate instance of that planet. Changing the option would move you to another instance (and you would be unable to join that instance if you had a different option selected). Problem solved.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Tahra

[Aricus]

I think this is the right move.

 

With players being down leveled to the level of content, you will no longer see bots or players solo farming elites in heroic mission areas. That'll be a nerf to inflation. Not to mention when I level an alt I won't have to compete with players who are solely there to farm money.

 

Also old content will see be a lot easier, but just won't be trivial as it is now.

[Rhyltran]

Yes because it's the better choice. The other option is bad.

 

I can accept that there's people who WOULD make that choice, but that doesn't mean I have to be punished for that and forced into that choice.

 

There's always solutions to the problem you described. Scaled down people could be put into a seperate instance of that planet. Changing the option would move you to another instance (and you would be unable to join that instance if you had a different option selected). Problem solved.

 

This is very well said. I missed that part of his post. Yeah, the easier path is always taken because it's the better choice. If you suddenly remove that easy path and give only the old path as an option most people don't applaud the company for making it the only option. They just won't do it at all.

 

I think this is the right move.

 

With players being down leveled to the level of content, you will no longer see bots or players solo farming elites in heroic mission areas. That'll be a nerf to inflation. Not to mention when I level an alt I won't have to compete with players who are solely there to farm money.

 

Also old content will see be a lot easier, but just won't be trivial as it is now.

 

I don't think you've been around on many mmo's. Bots get more sophisticated when they have to. You can set up a computer to multibox and these botters will do just that. You'll have bots invite each other to groups and work in unison to down the content. Repeatedly. This will just create more bots roaming the area, not less. I've seen it.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Aricus]

Yes because it's the better choice. The other option is bad.

 

I can accept that there's people who WOULD make that choice, but that doesn't mean I have to be punished for that and forced into that choice.

 

There's always solutions to the problem you described. Scaled down people could be put into a seperate instance of that planet. Changing the option would move you to another instance (and you would be unable to join that instance if you had a different option selected). Problem solved.

 

You're not being punished. There is no punishment in this. Just because you're not happy with the changes doesn't mean you're being punished, no one is causing you harm and this has nothing to do with moral ethics. So please stop using the phrase "being punished".

 

Also this cannot be OPTIONAL. Simply put, if this was optional bots and players would simply ignore the scale down and solo farm heroic missions or world bosses, causing players who are trying to level not be able to do the content and progress because they cannot compete with the higher levels killing all their mobs. I've had this happened to me many times on my alts.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Aricus

[branmakmuffin]

We don't want to skip "some" of them. We want to skip all of them and not using work around. We earned that right.

Rights? You have no "rights" in a computer game. You can (and can't) do what the makers of the game allow in the way they allow.

 

And all this "hair on fire" rhetoric is based on rumor, speculation and "leaks?" How about we just wait and see what happens? It's too late to change it now.

Edited September 20, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[Rhyltran]

You're not being punished. There is no punishment in this. Just because you're not happy with the changes doesn't mean you're being punished, no one is causing you harm and this has nothing to do with moral ethics. So please stop using the phrase "being punished".

 

Also this cannot be OPTIONAL. Simply put, if this was optional bots and players would simply ignore the scale down and solo farm heroic missions or world bosses, causing players who are trying to level not be able to do play the content and progress because they cannot compete with the higher levels killing all their mobs.

 

You can compete. I've done it. Higher level doesn't make them faster at tagging. If something spawns and you react first it's yours. As mentioned previously.. you won't get the bots to go away from this. I'm sorry but you won't. These people make their livings off botting. They will NOT go away.

 

Rights? You have no "rights" in a computer game. You can (and can't) do what the makers of the game allow in the way they allow.

 

And all this "hair on fire" rhetoric is based on rumor, speculation and "leaks?" How about we just wait and see what happens? It's too late to change it now.

 

Incorrect. People do have rights. They can choose not to participate or to leave. Again, I'm not saying I'm going to quit or the game is going to die but there has been changes made in other mmo's that have resulted in said mmo's demise. Up until it's death people claimed the same things many of the defenders do here. The forum may not always represent the majority but if we do make up the majority it ends up being very bad for the game's business if we're not there's no risk but why rock the boat on something this controversial? Very few people here are defending it. I'm pretty doubtful that the majority in game would appraise it. So I question you, do you really think the majority would praise the idea? Be neutral towards it? Or hate it? If you pick the second or third question there's no point for it.

 

If enough people voice displeasure things certainly can be changed. Bioware has a few times removed certain things from their betas based on feedback or at the very least altered them. This is exactly the place to voice concerns or displeasure.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Transcendent]

Also this cannot be OPTIONAL.

 

As someone said, it CAN be optional.

 

Planet instance 1 - Scaled.

Planet instance 2 - Not scaled - unable to transfer to scaled planet with option to scale turned off.

 

Job done. Best of both worlds, the ones who like scaling get scaled, the ones who don't want to see it, don't.

[Aricus]

I don't think you've been around on many mmo's. Bots get more sophisticated when they have to. You can set up a computer to multibox and these botters will do just that. You'll have bots invite each other to groups and work in unison to down the content. Repeatedly. This will just create more bots roaming the area, not less. I've seen it.

 

Oh I've been around in MMOs since the dawn of MMOs starting with Ultima Online, so your thoughts are wrong. And while you maybe right, but you fail to see the result.

 

Even in your case, BOTS AND HIGHER LEVEL PLAYERS still lose. They won't be able to kill mobs quickly (as in one or two hits), they have to pay more attention and be much more careful. If mob density is fairly high, I am not sure if they'll be able to bot the area.

 

But nonetheless, they'll be on the same playing field as everyone else, such as other players who are trying to level and since they're bots, they're going to be less efficient than the players. Higher level well they're just be on a more equal terms of performance.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Aricus

[branmakmuffin]

You can compete. I've done it. Higher level doesn't make them faster at tagging. If something spawns and you react first it's yours.

High levels farming bad guys (for whatever reason) kill lots and lots of them at a faster pace than low levels, thus more quickly depleting the supply and requiring the lower levels to wait for respawns. Happens all the time in every MMO I've ever played (except DDO where everything is instanced). You are clearly are not considering that.

Edited September 20, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[Aricus]

As someone said, it CAN be optional.

 

Planet instance 1 - Scaled.

Planet instance 2 - Not scaled - unable to transfer to scaled planet with option to scale turned off.

 

Job done. Best of both worlds, the ones who like scaling get scaled, the ones who don't want to see it, don't.

 

You didn't read everything I said. If you did, then you must not understand what I said. I am not sure which is the case, but I hope it's my first guess.

[Rhyltran]

Oh I've been around in MMOs since the dawn of MMOs starting with Ultima Online, so your thoughts are wrong. And while you maybe right, but you fail to see the result.

 

Even in your case, BOTS still lose. They won't be able to kill mobs quickly (as in one or two hits), they have to pay more attention and be much more careful. If mob density is fairly high, I am not sure if they'll be able to bot the area. But nonetheless, they'll be on the same playing field as everyone else, such as other players who are trying to level and since they're bots, they're going to be less efficient than the players.

 

I have trouble believing that you come from various mmos when you're claiming bots will fail if something requires more effort when they're capable of quite complex rotations. That back in Diablo 3 Inferno there were bots farming it when most players even couldn't. You vastly underestimate what bots are capable of. Bots are also able to navigate and complete high density areas as well. You miss the point. If they can't solo as quickly do you know what the creators do? They use more bots. You'll see more bots in the area not less.

 

You also forget about inflation. Everyone will be farming slower. Everyone will be making less credits. So even if the bots are making less credits it still amounts to the same in real life dollar value. SWTOR is F2P. They can create as many counts as needed and the companies can run 20+ bots to one machine with the right programs.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Rhyltran

[MisterBlackJack]

You're not being punished. There is no punishment in this. Just because you're not happy with the changes doesn't mean you're being punished, no one is causing you harm and this has nothing to do with moral ethics. So please stop using the phrase "being punished".

 

Also this cannot be OPTIONAL. Simply put, if this was optional bots and players would simply ignore the scale down and solo farm heroic missions or world bosses, causing players who are trying to level not be able to do the content and progress because they cannot compete with the higher levels killing all their mobs. I've had this happened to me many times on my alts.

 

Pretty much agree with this 1000x more. There is no way an optional version for this will work simply because of player mindsets. Just because it's not the easiest way doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Clearly there's too many sith in this thread !

[Rhyltran]

Pretty much agree with this 1000x more. There is no way an optional version for this will work simply because of player mindsets. Just because it's not the easiest way doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Clearly there's too many sith in this thread !

 

You realize the people who wouldn't use the feature (People like me) won't be going back to those areas so the fact that it's not optional is irrelevant because I won't be using it anyway? If you're worried about people farming heroics there's a simpler solution. Increase quest rewards for those doing it their first time and decrease the loot dropped in turn. That's a far simpler solution. Increasing the effort it takes to kill the mods doesn't matter if doing so is still the most profitable means of acquiring credits. That solves nothing. You need to make it not worth farming compared to other areas to remove the farmers.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Rhyltran

[MisterBlackJack]

You can compete. I've done it. Higher level doesn't make them faster at tagging. If something spawns and you react first it's yours. As mentioned previously.. you won't get the bots to go away from this. I'm sorry but you won't. These people make their livings off botting. They will NOT go away.

 

 

 

Incorrect. People do have rights. They can choose not to participate or to leave. Again, I'm not saying I'm going to quit or the game is going to die but there has been changes made in other mmo's that have resulted in said mmo's demise. Up until it's death people claimed the same things many of the defenders do here. The forum may not always represent the majority but if we do make up the majority it ends up being very bad for the game's business if we're not there's no risk but why rock the boat on something this controversial? Very few people here are defending it. I'm pretty doubtful that the majority in game would appraise it. So I question you, do you really think the majority would praise the idea? Be neutral towards it? Or hate it? If you pick the second or third question there's no point for it.

 

If enough people voice displeasure things certainly can be changed. Bioware has a few times removed certain things from their betas based on feedback or at the very least altered them. This is exactly the place to voice concerns or displeasure.

 

Only time will tell if people will like it or not. I believe people will acutally appreciate it over time. Even if it comes out and people rage at it, It doesn't hurt them for trying something to make Everything relevant and keep the game interesting. You don't change mindsets by just doing the norm, that's what I believe had them loose subs in the first place instead of trying to do something more creative. I want to see this go through first, especially since there is no Ops coming in 4.0 (It seems there's new heroics though), so why not

 

EDIT: Also those that voiced there cons towards certain things is the reason why Light side and dark side alignments mean nothing, why you couldn't kill off companions.

 

Yet this is changing now with 4.0 Bioware is saying "you know what, let's just do us, lets make a game we enjoy making where consequences matter, because that is what we are good at" I have no problem with them sticking to their guns on this because I believe they compitulated to much before launch, now we are getting those back.

Edited September 20, 2015 by MisterBlackJack

[Aricus]

I have trouble believing that you come from various mmos when you're claiming bots will fail if something requires more effort when they're capable of quite complex rotations. That back in Diablo 3 Inferno there were bots farming it when most players even couldn't. You vastly underestimate what bots are capable of. Bots are also able to navigate and complete high density areas as well. You miss the point. If they can't solo as quickly do you know what the creators do? They use more bots. You'll see more bots in the area not less.

 

You also forget about inflation. Everyone will be farming slower. Everyone will be making less credits. So even if the bots are making less credits it still amounts to the same in real life dollar value.

 

Lol. You still don't get it. So they use more bots? It still means less for them and more resources required to gain the same amount of previous productivity. WHICH STILL RESULTS IN A NERF FOR THEM.

 

Also Bots generally farm MOBS (not talking about materials otherwise your argument is true) but if they're farming mobs they farm lower level mobs they never farm levels of equal level UNLESS the mob of equal level has a chance of dropping an item of significant value or popular demand.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Aricus

[Rhyltran]

Only time will tell if people will like it or not. I believe people will acutally appreciate it over time. Even if it comes out and people rage at it, It doesn't hurt them for trying something to make Everything relevant and keep the game interesting. You don't change mindsets by just doing the norm, that's what I believe had them loose subs in the first place instead of trying to do something more creative. I want to see this go through first, especially since there is no Ops coming in 4.0 (It seems there's new heroics though), so why not

 

No. Those of us who don't like it won't like it even years from now. I've played guild wars. I've seen the system. In guild wars I never went back to areas I've completed. I won't do it here either. You don't get it. This isn't something bioware has invented. It's something some of us have already experienced. Something some of us have already tried. Something some of us already don't care for. I'm not going to use it. Most in this thread won't either. You also said it yourself about the path of least resistance. What's easier? Using your gear and still completing things at a slower pace or shouting in group chat over and over in hopes to find a group? Most are just going to kill things slower rather than group up.

 

Lol. You still don't get it. So they use more bots? It still means less for them and more resources required to gain the same amount of previously. WHICH STILL RESULTS IN A NERF FOR THEM.

 

Also Bots generally farm MOBS (not talking about materials otherwise your argument is true) but if they're farming mobs they farm lower level mobs they never farm levels of equal level UNLESS the mob of equal level has a chance of dropping an item of significant value or popular demand.

 

Let me ask you this, in this game which area(s) are likely to have bots farming mobs? Coreilla or Zoist?

 

I've seen bots in both. You'll have companies who will use bots in different areas to avoid competition. Using more bots is only a "Nerf" in the short term especially since gear scales. They don't need to invest in good gear. Why do they need more? It's not like they have to keep supporting the characters when they have the gear for the content and it's not like it's harder to level up more bots especially since bots can run things day and night. Honestly there's very few bots that farm heroics period. Even in low level areas. I barely run into them. Have I? Yes but there's really not that many. So it's weird that you're using this as the crux to your justification of the system. Not to mention as I stated there's easier ways to remove certain areas as farming areas.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Rhyltran

[MisterBlackJack]

You realize the people who wouldn't use the feature (People like me) won't be going back to those areas so the fact that it's not optional is irrelevant because I won't be using it anyway? If you're worried about people farming heroics there's a simpler solution. Increase quest rewards for those doing it their first time and decrease the loot dropped in turn. That's a far simpler solution. Increasing the effort it takes to kill the mods doesn't matter if doing so is still the most profitable means of acquiring credits. That solves nothing. You need to make it not worth farming compared to other areas to remove the farmers.

 

Unless the story entails you to return to these older planets

 

Again it's not about farming but more of the fact of doing things with other people. What happen to the concept of completing a boss or a difficult mission with friends in MMO? Again you are thinking of the issue as an individual instead of the collective, which is what bioware, myself and others are looking at. This change makes the greater better rather than the individual.

[Aricus]

No. Those of us who don't like it won't like it even years from now. I've played guild wars. I've seen the system. In guild wars I never went back to areas I've completed. I won't do it here either. You don't get it. This isn't something bioware has invented. It's something some of us have already experienced. Something some of us have already tried. Something some of us already don't care for. I'm not going to use it. Most in this thread won't either. You also said it yourself about the path of least resistance. What's easier? Using your gear and still completing things at a slower pace or shouting in group chat over and over in hopes to find a group? Most are just going to kill things slower rather than group up.

 

This is directed towards your comment in red. If you won't come back to areas you completed, then....Oh please mista... please tell me why are you complaining about the changes?

Edited September 20, 2015 by Aricus

[Transcendent]

You didn't read everything I said. If you did, then you must not understand what I said. I am not sure which is the case, but I hope it's my first guess.

 

Oh I read everything you said from this post onwards. I disagreed with it, using the flimsy excuse of bots as a reason for it to be implemented is pretty unfounded. As pointed out to you, all the botters will do is multi-bot. As for the players farming elites? You do know this game has anti-farm code to stop specific elites / champions being farmed, as for the other ones that simply drop credits? If a player wants to earn credits the hard way, why stop them doing that if that's what they enjoy?

 

Hence, I disagreed with your post, hence why I posted what I did, perhaps you didn't understand the point I was making that it could be optional.

 

I think this is the right move.

 

With players being down leveled to the level of content, you will no longer see bots or players solo farming elites in heroic mission areas. That'll be a nerf to inflation. Not to mention when I level an alt I won't have to compete with players who are solely there to farm money.

 

Also old content will see be a lot easier, but just won't be trivial as it is now.

[Rhyltran]

Unless the story entails you to return to these older planets

 

Again it's not about farming but more of the fact of doing things with other people. What happen to the concept of completing a boss or a difficult mission with friends in MMO? Again you are thinking of the issue as an individual instead of the collective, which is what bioware, myself and others are looking at. This change makes the greater better rather than the individual.

 

If the story brings me back to those older planets then I need to be there for the story. I won't be grouping up on my way to the story quest. I also asked you some questions about the average mmo player that you have neglected to answer. Been to the planets on day 1 of release? You do realize most people barely grouped then. People are more experienced now and even less likely to run old content. How is this going to suddenly bring in renewed interest in these areas? Why is it going to make some people care when people barely did it in the first place?

[EnkiduNineEight]

Rights? You have no "rights" in a computer game. You can (and can't) do what the makers of the game allow in the way they allow.

 

And all this "hair on fire" rhetoric is based on rumor, speculation and "leaks?" How about we just wait and see what happens? It's too late to change it now.

 

This is why they didn't want leaks. Because rather than having to deal honestly with a playerbase and its wants and expectations they can force a load of horse-pucky on us and say, 'Well... too late to change it now!'

 

Except a significant number of people will say, yup... too late to save my sub now.

 

This was an ill advised system.

 

The BEST they could do to 'recover' it would be to make the scaling ONLY affect people who have crossed the gate to the new KOTFE content and make different instances of the old planets that are scaled. Allow the global chats to wrok between these instances AND allow someone in a scaled instance to invite someone who is not in KOTFA to join their group allowing them to switch the planetary instance to the scaled instance so that they can play with the gated characters.

 

This allows them the ability to make 'old planets' harder without having to make entirely new versions of the old planets, which allows them to use the old planets to build up their new alliance system crap, but _does not_ force everyone to deal with level scaling which is quite unattractive to the majority of people I talk to. There is a reason why Guild Wars just never takes off like they thought it would and a big part of that reason is scaling.

 

The 'gains' of scaling are not significant enough to wipe out the perceptual fun/gains of a lack of scaling for most players. Players, overall, do not like feeling like they are being made 'weaker' by changes in the game.

 

If this is implemented across all the planets and no matter what your level and KOTFA state, they've just removed every reason to level up at all, you're 'always' at the correct level, your equipment doesn't matter, nothing matters at all. It makes any sort of time involvement pointless.

 

If they are trying to move this game to cell phones and compete with Farmville.. maybe, but for a MMO.. No thanks.

 

I am significantly disinclined to sub for this.