4.0 Assassin

[djcetra]

Yes.

 

[Iona_Var]

All I can say with all these movement changes we better get our dps balanced accordingly. We probably won't but we should.

[truevalon]

Some more speculation. If Hatred got a 10% buff to dot damage that would equal roughly a 4% overall dps increase?

 

And oh how I wish we'd get 25% selfhealing on dots again.

[La_Frite]

I agree with you. We are a melee dps, we need a bit more sustained self-heal. For Hatred spec, i would like also a Lecching Strike with internal damage instead of weapon damage, in order to bypass the armor and defense for more self-heal when we fight heavy armor enemy like juggernaut or powertech. With Recklessness (+60% critical chance), we could have a Leeching Strike burst self-heal on demand when we are in danger. Edited September 23, 2015 by La_Frite

[La_Frite]

Some more speculation. If Hatred got a 10% buff to dot damage that would equal roughly a 4% overall dps increase?

 

And oh how I wish we'd get 25% selfhealing on dots again.

 

I agree with you. We are a melee dps, we need a bit more sustained self-heal. For Hatred spec, i would like also a Lecching Strike with internal damage instead of weapon damage, in order to bypass the armor and defense for more self-heal when we fight heavy armor enemy like juggernaut or powertech. With Recklessness (+60% critical chance), we could have a Leeching Strike burst self-heal on demand when we are in danger.

[Aelanis]

Some more speculation. If Hatred got a 10% buff to dot damage that would equal roughly a 4% overall dps increase?

Only if you did a multiplicative increase, for which there's no precedent. The only multiplicative increase we get is from a debuff applied to an enemy. It'd have to be 14% increase on Creeping Terror and 13% on Discharge and Demolish to get a 4% DPS increase due to the way additive percent increases work. Just don't quote me on which abilities need which boost, because I'm trying to do this from memory, not by looking at the tree, and I'm notoriously bad at getting things wrong when I do this. The math is correct, though.

And oh how I wish we'd get 25% selfhealing on dots again.

I agree with you. We are a melee dps, we need a bit more sustained self-heal. For Hatred spec, i would like also a Lecching Strike with internal damage instead of weapon damage, in order to bypass the armor and defense for more self-heal when we fight heavy armor enemy like juggernaut or powertech. With Recklessness (+60% critical chance), we could have a Leeching Strike burst self-heal on demand when we are in danger.

 

Honestly, more DR or more HP would be better at making us less squishy than self heals would. I don't know what it is with peoples's infatuation with self heals in this game, but they typically just end up being too strong, then get nerfed to uselessness or complete unreliability when people complain about how strong they are. To make a noticeable difference, you'd need significant self heals, which would heavy handedly alter the balance (what we have of it, anyway) of where our class stands. Also, self heals aren't worth much against spike damage, and guess what kills people most?

[La_Frite]

It's me again i whave two ideas for Darkness Assassin: two new abiliies. The numbers are for example.

 

1) "Dark Absorption": you build one charge of Dark Absorption when you use maul with Conspirator's Cloak and Blackout can be used out of the stealth mode. You can build 3 charges. The use of Blackout consumes all charges and for each you gain X% damage reduction for 3 seconds. (ex: 4% damage reduction for 1 charge, at 3 we have 12% maybe it's enough).

 

This new ability could be a counter against spiky damage but need to anticipate the hard hits. Knowing we have Conspirator's Cloak every 10 seconds, we could counter spiky damage every 30 seconds (with the 3 charges), and i think 3 seconds duration buff is enough.

 

2) "Vitalizing Volts": when you are under Dark Ward, Discharge heals you, the healing depends of your health level:

2% of your maximum health when you are above 60%.

4% of your maximum health when you are under 60%.

8% of your maximum health when you are under 30%.

 

Why this self-heal ability, because many players want a self-heal come back for Darkness. With this new ability, we could have an instant self-heal every 10 seconds but scaling with our health level, i think it's more logical to have a low self-heal when we are healthy, and a better when we are in danger.

 

PS: numbers are for example

 

Thanks for reading

[truevalon]

Only if you did a multiplicative increase, for which there's no precedent. The only multiplicative increase we get is from a debuff applied to an enemy. It'd have to be 14% increase on Creeping Terror and 13% on Discharge and Demolish to get a 4% DPS increase due to the way additive percent increases work. Just don't quote me on which abilities need which boost, because I'm trying to do this from memory, not by looking at the tree, and I'm notoriously bad at getting things wrong when I do this. The math is correct, though.

 

 

Honestly, more DR or more HP would be better at making us less squishy than self heals would. I don't know what it is with peoples's infatuation with self heals in this game, but they typically just end up being too strong, then get nerfed to uselessness or complete unreliability when people complain about how strong they are. To make a noticeable difference, you'd need significant self heals, which would heavy handedly alter the balance (what we have of it, anyway) of where our class stands. Also, self heals aren't worth much against spike damage, and guess what kills people most?

 

I do agree that more DR is better. With Hatred they have made self heals part of our survivability though. It just annoys that sorcs are allowed to keep 25% heal while ours is 10%

[Aelanis]

It's me again i whave two ideas for Darkness Assassin: two new abiliies. The numbers are for example.

 

1) "Dark Absorption": you build one charge of Dark Absorption when you use maul with Conspirator's Cloak and Blackout can be used out of the stealth mode. You can build 3 charges. The use of Blackout consumes all charges and for each you gain X% damage reduction for 3 seconds. (ex: 4% damage reduction for 1 charge, at 3 we have 12% maybe it's enough).

 

This new ability could be a counter against spiky damage but need to anticipate the hard hits. Knowing we have Conspirator's Cloak every 10 seconds, we could counter spiky damage every 30 seconds (with the 3 charges), and i think 3 seconds duration buff is enough.

 

2) "Vitalizing Volts": when you are under Dark Ward, Discharge heals you, the healing depends of your health level:

2% of your maximum health when you are above 60%.

4% of your maximum health when you are under 60%.

8% of your maximum health when you are under 30%.

 

Why this self-heal ability, because many players want a self-heal come back for Darkness. With this new ability, we could have an instant self-heal every 10 seconds but scaling with our health level, i think it's more logical to have a low self-heal when we are healthy, and a better when we are in danger.

 

PS: numbers are for example

 

Thanks for reading

 

I think reducing the Dark Absorption bit to 3.33% per stack would be sufficient. It's a neat idea that doesn't hugely impact dtps over the long run, but I'm not sure how much we need another cooldown in PvE. PvP is a different story, though.

 

As for the self heal? I'd give it a longer lockout, and make it a little stronger, also forcing you between picking the heal and the accuracy debuff. 3.33% at 70% health and above, 6.67% between 35% and 70%, and 10% below 35%. Between this new heal and Overcharge Saber, you could pump yourself from even 10% out of execute range, which is quite strong, but requires you to blow some serious resources to do it.

[LudhaninRolgge]

Aelanis, you should be in charge of Assassin/Shadow balancing ^^

 

I read a bit of the datamining about our classe and I've noticed a 5% damage increase on Force Breach/Discharge. Now I'm bad at math, but I calculated a 1% DPS increase. Am I right ? Or Did I forget to add some components in my calculation ?

[Aelanis]

Aelanis, you should be in charge of Assassin/Shadow balancing ^^

 

I read a bit of the datamining about our classe and I've noticed a 5% damage increase on Force Breach/Discharge. Now I'm bad at math, but I calculated a 1% DPS increase. Am I right ? Or Did I forget to add some components in my calculation ?

 

You don't want to go talking about that stuff here.

[Kazz_Devlin]

Don't see much of an improvement BW couldn't balance this game if it tried. Still gonna get owned by DPS jugs only now can't kite them don't see how that is balanced. If bubble still in bubble princess are still going to be a pain to kill what do you people see that make you so optimistic? Still pisses me off that most classes can solo Kingpin bounties yet deception sin is ****ed cause my main attack can't ever be used (can never get behind NPC plus can't stun.)

I see nothing that will improve this game in the near future.

[Kazz_Devlin]

Some people actually enjoy the game, and yes they have let a lot of things slide for too long. But you are not forced to play this game. If you think it's such garbage and a waste of time, don't play. Simple as that.

 

paid for the year so kinda screwed

[Kazz_Devlin]

So they're giving sorcs more mobility with phasewalk, running around invincible in bubbles etc but nerfing Assassins.

 

#Bioware logic

 

Well said

[Kazz_Devlin]

Do all inquisitors still get phasewalk though?

 

oh so does everyone get bubble now so we can all be bubble princess's:p

[djcetra]

oh so does everyone get bubble now so we can all be bubble princess's:p

 

WTB Bubble for Deception Assassin to even it balance.

[Aelanis]

WTB Bubble for Deception Assassin to even it balance.

 

WTB bubble as Assassin tank.

[mmerry]

WTB PvE balance..

[Iona_Var]

WTB proper game balance.

[Kazz_Devlin]

WTB proper game balance.

 

Really this is what most of us want at least some semblance of balance.

 

DPS jugs shouldn't be able to absorb amount of dmg they do AND put out the DPS they do. If you have high DPS then you should be a glass cannon. As is now most sins DPS output lower than Jugs and if you go toe to toe you loose. Heal when hit needs a VISABLE CUE that all can see not some BS icon that appears amid a constantly fluctuating array of icons!

 

Bubble princess's mobility +heals+bubble= darn near impossible for melee to kill just endless kiting and healing self

bubble needs to go

 

Operative stab stab stab stab stun stab stab stab roll, roll, roll needs to be addressed

 

mara has high DPS output but a sin can compete I think a slight DPS for Sin is still warranted overall our burst is still lowest

[Iona_Var]

We'll see how all these changes go at the end of October. I do like the new utilities for assassins, my main concern is our dps output compared to other classes, especially now that stealth and mobility are going to kinda be moot points since every class is getting more mobility. We should at least be able to put out the dps marauders can.

[allexj]

We'll see how all these changes go at the end of October. I do like the new utilities for assassins, my main concern is our dps output compared to other classes, especially now that stealth and mobility are going to kinda be moot points since every class is getting more mobility. We should at least be able to put out the dps marauders can.

 

Changes are out and the same thing as was reported also sage/sorcs are also now immune to stuns after useing phase walk

[Aelanis]

So now that we've seen some official changes, I'd like to point out a problem with Deception. This is under the assumption that there aren't other changes they haven't listed, which is the only assumption I can reasonably make, as terrible an assumption as it is. Anyway, on to my point:

 

 

Ask anyone who knows half a thing about playing Deception in a sustained scenario, and they'll tell you that, to conserve Force, make sure to build 2 stacks of Induction before you use Ball Lightning. This is obviously the intended way to play the class, as Ball Lightning glow when you build that second stack, and it's made fairly obvious in the skill tree that that's part of the plan for sustained damage. Said somewhat knowledgeable person will also tell you that delaying Ball Lightning is bad for your damage, and you should only do so to Discharge at 3 stacks of Static Charge.

 

I bring these two tidbits up because there is a fundamental conflict between the two ideas that isn't clearly visible: using Ball Lightning on cooldown (delaying only for Discharge) and making sure you build 2 stacks of Induction in the 3 intervening GCDs is strictly Force negative. Because of the 6 second block that turns into VS > VS > Discharge > BL, the rotation goes horribly Force negative. Now yes, you can voluntarily sacrifice one of your two goals to satisfy the other while staying closer to Force neutral, but that would suggest a fundamental design flaw (not to mention the fact that it still doesn't really work), and those are really ugly.

 

Now, an astute observer might say, "but Aelanis, isn't that how the developers tried to change the Disciplines in 3.0, to not be able to go full bore dps all the time? And the rotation is already actually Force negative, we just have Dark Embrace to fill our bar back up when we get low!" The first is a valid point, but misses the big picture. The second doesn't account for the fact that even maximizing Force regeneration via Dark Embrace that the problem doesn't go away, and gets really bad when you get to back to back Discharge. However, there are issues that, again, aren't readily apparent that make the the point meaningless.

 

First, while yes, we would have to willingly sacrifice resource management to do more damage for that 6 second block, like the developers intended, the idea is that we then give up some damage elsewhere to make it back up. Except we can't. There are no other places where we can choose to do less damage to save on Force without directly disregarding at least one of our two goals. Our rotation already sacrifices as many VS activations as it can to try to stay neutral, there are no more to give up without also giving up the second stack of Induction. Now maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe they want us to have to not perform our intended rotation to make it work.

 

So, we should now see that there's a fundamental problem. There will be a worse problem when 4.0 hits and we use back to back Discharges about twice as often. However, there is a very simple solution: have Discharge build a stack of Induction. Crazy, yes, but let me explain.

 

This kills three birds with one stone, and creates no problems in the process (that I can see):

 

1. It allows us to stay Force neutral and fulfill the two goals I listed at the start. It means we never have to delay Ball Lightning and can always have 2 stacks of Induction for it.
   
2. It fulfills the developer goal of allowing us to spend more resources to do more damage now, at the cost of doing damage later. We can still use VS multiple times in that problem block, but it's no longer necessary, and we would now knowingly have to hurt our resource management to do so.
   
3. It doesn't change what is actually a very smooth rotation at all. It therefore doesn't vastly change the damage output the Discipline has, and so balance metrics wouldn't have to significantly change. It's a minor increase in sustained damage, but considering our place so near the bottom of the totem pole, that's okay in my book.
   

 

 

So, for the tl;dr version: we have a fundamental problem by trying to both build 2 stacks of Induction and not delay Ball Lightning, in that it makes our intended sustained rotation unsustainable. Solution: make Discharge build Induction, which introduces no major issues and smooths a bunch of things out.

 

Also, I hate trying to post on my phone.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Aelanis

[Lalainnia]

So now that we've seen some official changes, I'd like to point out a problem with Deception. This is under the assumption that there aren't other changes they haven't listed, which is the only assumption I can reasonably make, as terrible an assumption as it is. Anyway, on to my point:

 

Ask anyone who knows half a thing about playing Deception in a sustained scenario, and they'll tell you that, to conserve Force, make sure to build 2 stacks of Induction before you use Ball Lightning. This is obviously the intended way to play the class, as Ball Lightning glow when you build that second stack, and it's made fairly obvious in the skill tree that that's part of the plan for sustained damage. Said somewhat knowledgeable person will also tell you that delaying Ball Lightning is bad for your damage, and you should only do so to Discharge at 3 stacks of Static Charge.

 

I bring these two tidbits up because there is a fundamental conflict between the two ideas that isn't clearly visible: using Ball Lightning on cooldown (delaying only for Discharge) and making sure you build 2 stacks of Induction in the 3 intervening GCDs is strictly Force negative. Because of the 6 second block that turns into VS > VS > Discharge > BL, the rotation goes horribly Force negative. Now yes, you can voluntarily sacrifice one of your two goals to satisfy the other while staying closer to Force neutral, but that would suggest a fundamental design flaw (not to mention the fact that it still doesn't really work), and those are really ugly.

 

Now, an astute observer might say, "but Aelanis, isn't that how the developers tried to change the Disciplines in 3.0, to not be able to go full bore dps all the time? And the rotation is already actually Force negative, we just have Dark Embrace to fill our bar back up when we get low!" The first is a valid point, but misses the big picture. The second doesn't account for the fact that even maximizing Force regeneration via Dark Embrace that the problem doesn't go away, and gets really bad when you get to back to back Discharge. However, there are issues that, again, aren't readily apparent that make the the point meaningless.

 

First, while yes, we would have to willingly sacrifice resource management to do more damage for that 6 second block, like the developers intended, the idea is that we then give up some damage elsewhere to make it back up. Except we can't. There are no other places where we can choose to do less damage to save on Force without directly disregarding at least one of our two goals. Our rotation already sacrifices as many VS activations as it can to try to stay neutral, there are no more to give up without also giving up the second stack of Induction. Now maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe they want us to have to not perform our intended rotation to make it work.

 

So, we should now see that there's a fundamental problem. There will be a worse problem when 4.0 hits and we use back to back Discharges about twice as often. However, there is a very simple solution: have Discharge build a stack of Induction. Crazy, yes, but let me explain.

 

K so I read this and my question is this really actually an issue? Assuming you're playing deception at least for tos and rav on eery single fight where would this be an actual issue? Just wondering

[Aelanis]

K so I read this and my question is this really actually an issue? Assuming you're playing deception at least for tos and rav on eery single fight where would this be an actual issue? Just wondering

 

I edited it a bit since you quoted it, but yes. It's an issue in any fight where you hit ~90 straight seconds of uptime, which is most fights, especially with 4.0 around the corner.