Non Force-Users Viable in KotFE Story? [SPOILER]

[i--robot]

SPOILER WARNING: Some class stories.

 

Ok, two things:

1. I have seen similar threads but hopefully this will add something new.

2. This thread pertains strictly to RP/story only.

 

My first character was a BH and I loved the class story until he came up against the dread masters - six immensely powerful Sith lords. As much as I tried, I couldn't buy into them extending him an offer to join them. He wasn't even force-sensitive! It just didn't work for me. But hey ho.

 

Now with KotFE we are told that Valkorian says to our character "You do not have to stand against me. Instead, I will share all of this with you if you will only kneel."

 

So the all-powerful emperor obviously respects us as a formidable foe/ally and he's offering (or at least pretending to offer) to share his empire with our character. Now with my SI I can quite believe it: he is a Dark Council member, has had his own cult, he is especially gifted and powerful with the force and has commanded fleets into battle. Yep, I can't wait for that showdown.

 

But can I really see Valkorian making the same offer to my wisecracking smuggler? To share his empire? A smuggler?

 

It just seems to me that the force-using (Dark Council/Jedi Council members) and non force-using class stories have irreversibly diverged at level 50 and despite the fact that none of us know what BW has in store for us with the KotFE story, that single line of dialogue kind of emphasizes this split.

 

As much as I'm excited to play the Outlander with my force-using characters leading up to this showdown, I am already sceptical about even starting KotFE with my non force-users for fear of reaching a similar situation as with the dreads. Don't get me wrong, it's really not a big deal but being immersed in a story and not is quite a difference.

 

I dare say I'll probably level all my characters up through KotFE eventually so that I get them to max level again but as far as the story goes, I just can't see it working for the non-force users. Of course I really hope it does.

 

Yes, I know it's kind of been like this from the start (non-force users defeating force-using foes) but at least that was in the context of their own class stories. Now that SWTOR seems to be going heavily into a single story where the Outlander is an exceptional individual even in the eyes of the emperor it just seems to me that the future is for force-using characters only.

 

Does anyone else feel the same?

 

tl;dr? Would Valkorian really make that same offer to a non force-user?

[Leklor]

Non Force-using PCs are still incredibly talented fighters, often capable of defeating force-users themselves.

It all comes down to how you rp your character.

Also, we have no idea if Valkorion's offer is honest. If it isn't, then why would he care if the person in front of him is a Jedi or a ship captain? He'll be planning to betray them soon after.

[Curbhunter]

Well Jedi/sith are not gods they can be killed. And the non force user in the stories that we play are not your everyday citizens. The non force user have very special training and do have weaponry and armor to help compensate for their lack of the use of the force.

 

And just because they are not using the force (non force user) it does not mean that a Jedi/sith can't see how the force is guiding or helping the non force user.

 

The above is just my 2 credits worth

Edited September 6, 2015 by Curbhunter

[SithKoriandr]

Non Force-using PCs are still incredibly talented fighters, often capable of defeating force-users themselves.

It all comes down to how you rp your character.

Also, we have no idea if Valkorion's offer is honest. If it isn't, then why would he care if the person in front of him is a Jedi or a ship captain? He'll be planning to betray them soon after.

 

It doesn't come down to how you RP your character, it comes down to how the class story played out. In the end, no matter the choices, they don't verge off THAT much.

 

Even when choosing dialogue options like "I'm the best" on the smuggler has the smuggler and everyone else pretty much going "well...not in the same league as those force users...RUN"

 

And going around plowing through the enemies not in the instances isn't saying much towards the characters powers at all. They're an "everyone can do this!" which doesn't line up with the class stories.

 

Even the Agent storyline has the NPCs telling you straight out "You can't beat a powerful force user" and it doesn't even let you beat him out right.

 

Now, okay, if they give the smuggler or agent a chance to talk him down and succeed, well then, they are good talkers

[Leklor]

It doesn't come down to how you RP your character, it comes down to how the class story played out. In the end, no matter the choices, they don't verge off THAT much.

 

Even when choosing dialogue options like "I'm the best" on the smuggler has the smuggler and everyone else pretty much going "well...not in the same league as those force users...RUN"

 

And going around plowing through the enemies not in the instances isn't saying much towards the characters powers at all. They're an "everyone can do this!" which doesn't line up with the class stories.

 

Even the Agent storyline has the NPCs telling you straight out "You can't beat a powerful force user" and it doesn't even let you beat him out right.

 

Now, okay, if they give the smuggler or agent a chance to talk him down and succeed, well then, they are good talkers

 

I chalk it up to gameplay and story separation. You are given such warnings in cutscenes more than once, sure, but often, you completely pounds them into the ground any way.

And one could argue that force-users also often get told "He's too powerful even for you" before tearing them apart without breaking a sweat.

[shadowrouge]

Well I don't know about most of that but with my smuggler story. I have an entire fleet of pirate ships at my command. I control most of the underworld, at least the choices I made I did. So why is it so hard to believe that someone in power would want someone in such a position to get things done behind the scenes. Harass a system and not have it tied back to you.

 

If I was looking to take over the galaxy I wouldn't mind having someone with those kinds of connections working with/for me.

[Rhyltran]

SPOILER WARNING: Some class stories.

 

Ok, two things:

1. I have seen similar threads but hopefully this will add something new.

2. This thread pertains strictly to RP/story only.

 

My first character was a BH and I loved the class story until he came up against the dread masters - six immensely powerful Sith lords. As much as I tried, I couldn't buy into them extending him an offer to join them. He wasn't even force-sensitive! It just didn't work for me. But hey ho.

 

Now with KotFE we are told that Valkorian says to our character "You do not have to stand against me. Instead, I will share all of this with you if you will only kneel."

 

So the all-powerful emperor obviously respects us as a formidable foe/ally and he's offering (or at least pretending to offer) to share his empire with our character. Now with my SI I can quite believe it: he is a Dark Council member, has had his own cult, he is especially gifted and powerful with the force and has commanded fleets into battle. Yep, I can't wait for that showdown.

 

But can I really see Valkorian making the same offer to my wisecracking smuggler? To share his empire? A smuggler?

 

It just seems to me that the force-using (Dark Council/Jedi Council members) and non force-using class stories have irreversibly diverged at level 50 and despite the fact that none of us know what BW has in store for us with the KotFE story, that single line of dialogue kind of emphasizes this split.

 

As much as I'm excited to play the Outlander with my force-using characters leading up to this showdown, I am already sceptical about even starting KotFE with my non force-users for fear of reaching a similar situation as with the dreads. Don't get me wrong, it's really not a big deal but being immersed in a story and not is quite a difference.

 

I dare say I'll probably level all my characters up through KotFE eventually so that I get them to max level again but as far as the story goes, I just can't see it working for the non-force users. Of course I really hope it does.

 

Yes, I know it's kind of been like this from the start (non-force users defeating force-using foes) but at least that was in the context of their own class stories. Now that SWTOR seems to be going heavily into a single story where the Outlander is an exceptional individual even in the eyes of the emperor it just seems to me that the future is for force-using characters only.

 

Does anyone else feel the same?

 

tl;dr? Would Valkorian really make that same offer to a non force-user?

 

In the expansion you'll have Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and other powerful companions. You can easily roleplay it that you do what you can to assist/hold them off while they pull the weight.

[eartharioch]

The game itself focuses on our characters' combat skills, which at high levels doesn't seem to make sense in the tech v. force arena -- well, actually, end game combat in almost any game doesn't make any sense if you look too closely.

 

However, in our class stories all of our characters (not just the force users) are major galactic players and directly engaging in combat is probably the least valuable use of their abilities.

 

The Smuggler:

 

controls (or at least has access to) a large part of the Underworld. In the prehistory of swtor, the Underworld played a major part in preventing the Empire from defeating the Republic. Kill the Smuggler, and the Underworld disperses, making it harder to sweep them up. Get the Smuggler's cooperation, and enough of them fall in line to leave them to clean up any stragglers.

 

 

The Trooper:

 

runs the *the best* spec forces team in the Republic. Kill the Troooper, and his Lt takes over and Havoc will cause significant havoc with any of Valkorian's plans (he would have just guaranteed that the Republic's best asymmetric warfare team is against him). Get the Trooper's cooperation, and Havoc uses those skills against Valkorian's enemies -- assuming this is after Valkorian has broken the Republic and Empire, he probably only has really tough holdouts left.

 

 

The Agent:

 

has (or controls) access to the most sensitive secrets in the galaxy. Kill the Agent, and access to that information goes away (or gets given to the enemy by the survivors of the Agent's team). Get the Agent's cooperation, and Valkorian (presumably from outside the known galaxy) now has a better spy network than any of his enemies.

 

 

The Hunter:

 

is (or is perceived as) commanding respect from the Mandalorian clans, who are/were allied with the Empire before Valkorian arrived. Kill the Hunter, kill one of the few people capable of uniting the clans (much like the Smuggler with the Underworld). Gain the Hunter's cooperation, get the best chance at getting the most clans to come over.

 

 

Anyway, just a few quick reasons I think the non-force-users would still matter to Valkorian even if he should be able to defeat them in combat.

Edited September 6, 2015 by eartharioch

[Magnanimator]

I think you're really selling the non-force-using Player Characters short, OP.

 

The Hunter alone is responsible for

killing the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, various other powerful Jedi and force-users, and potentially Darth Tormen.

That resume would put her among the top handful of most dangerous people in the galaxy.

 

If the other non-force-using characters are on par with the Hunter, I don't see the issue.

 

The Agent's issues with Jadus are an anomaly, considering we're told that Jadus is second most powerful force-user in the galaxy short of the Emperor himself, who is effectively godlike. Jadus does things no other force-user can do.

 

I have no issue with considering the non-force-using PCs on par with a jedi or sith.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Magnanimator

[eartharioch]

I think you're really selling the non-force-using Player Characters short, OP.

 

The Hunter alone is responsible for

killing the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, various other powerful Jedi and force-users, and potentially Darth Tormen.

That resume would put her among the top handful of most dangerous people in the galaxy.

 

If the other non-force-using characters are on par with the Hunter, I don't see the issue.

 

The Agent's issues with Jadus are an anomaly, considering we're told that Jadus is second most powerful force-user in the galaxy short of the Emperor himself, who is effectively godlike. Jadus does things no other force-user can do.

 

I have no issue with considering the non-force-using PCs on par with a jedi or sith.

 

That happened in-game, in the combat engine, and as I said, I'm not discussing those mechanics. OFC we beat the bad guys, but that's because the combat system is designed to let tech users be equal to force users because it's a game and if you played to the end of your class story and got one-shotted with a message saying "Wrong Class, Sucka!" the game wouldn't sell as well.

 

That doesn't mean that what happened fits in with the Lore, which is what the OP was discussing. My point was that direct combat isn't the only lore/story measure of a character's/class's worth.

[Warrgames]

Really another thread about how worthless non-force users are?

[Hurleyredcross]

I think you're really selling the non-force-using Player Characters short, OP.

 

The Hunter alone is responsible for

killing the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, various other powerful Jedi and force-users, and potentially Darth Tormen.

That resume would put her among the top handful of most dangerous people in the galaxy.

 

If the other non-force-using characters are on par with the Hunter, I don't see the issue.

 

The Agent's issues with Jadus are an anomaly, considering we're told that Jadus is second most powerful force-user in the galaxy short of the Emperor himself, who is effectively godlike. Jadus does things no other force-user can do.

 

I have no issue with considering the non-force-using PCs on par with a jedi or sith.

 

 

Wait.... you can kill Tormen?

[Azareya]

The BH is fully viable

the others are a stretch

Especially the smuggler haha!

[Draocnkang]

the none force users here are beyond just the normal dudes if they are not force sensitive (though I roleplay that my bounty hunter may be but just chocks it down to luck/skill) and it has also been shown in other material that none force users can take on force users if they are clever or use tricks that force users do not expect. Fire is considered exceptionally powerful against them as it makes lightsabers useless, another is vibroblades hell grievous is a none force user and killed plenty of jedi even exceptional ones in the comics he had to use his mechanical shell to compete and constantly trained against a sith but the fact remains he still accomplished it.

[i--robot]

Really another thread about how worthless non-force users are?

 

Not at all. The thing that got me thinking in the first place was that I was really looking forward to playing KotFE with my Sorc and I was wondering if we would not only get the chance of refusing the offer and defeating Valkorian but whether there would be the possibility for our character to actually take over as Emperor. I mean, my Sorc is already a member of the Dark Council so usurping Valkorian and taking over is only a step away. How awesome would that be.

 

And then I thought that if this was a possibility in the story to come then that would be equally awesome to play something like that with a Jedi character. Ultra LS finally being turned to the DS by the lure of ultimate power?

 

Obviously I don't know if this is where the story will take us but the possibility had me eager to play.

 

But when I thought about the possibilities for my non-force characters the difference kind of jumped out at me. But I do take the points that some of you made about the importance of non-force users in an empire. It just seems that the potential endpoints are so different.

[Padabiene]

Wait....

you can kill Tormen?

 

 

Gleefully. I hated that guy.

 

[Heromofo]

Guys cmon lol i have one person to mention here to end this.

 

Cad Bane

 

Nuff said

 

"Master Cad Bane, I presume. I've heard much about you. Who hasn't? The greatest hunter since Jango lost his head…"

―Davtokk[src]

Edited September 7, 2015 by Heromofo

[Kiesu]

I feel like such an underdog now. I wonder how my Gunslinger will fare out, I never took any underworld responsibilities and in the end just grabbed the criminal lords credits and shooed them off. I'm still that lone smuggler drifting in space with little else than his crew and quite a few credits in his pockets. I kinda doubt those credits alone will make anyone share their empire with me.

 

Same with Operative really. I gave away the secrets and left to live silently.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Kiesu

[Aries_cz]

Even the Agent storyline has the NPCs telling you straight out "You can't beat a powerful force user" and it doesn't even let you beat him out right.

 

 

Jadus is said to be second in power to the Emperor (meaning the most powerful Sith of the Council at the time).

 

 

However, that happened in the first year of Agent storyline. In the following 3 years 9before getting frozen), they have surely picked up a lot of skills on dealing with Force users.

[Aries_cz]

That happened in-game, in the combat engine, and as I said, I'm not discussing those mechanics. OFC we beat the bad guys, but that's because the combat system is designed to let tech users be equal to force users because it's a game and if you played to the end of your class story and got one-shotted with a message saying "Wrong Class, Sucka!" the game wouldn't sell as well.

 

That doesn't mean that what happened fits in with the Lore, which is what the OP was discussing. My point was that direct combat isn't the only lore/story measure of a character's/class's worth.

 

Hunter spoilers

 

 

Actually, you do beat the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order even story-wise, and shortly after that, a very powerful Sith, if you choose to.

 

 

If it wouldn't be possible, then why is it in the story at all, if tech classes are supposed to be inferior?

 

Mandalorians were going after Force users forever, and had successes against them (with beskar being resistant to lightsabers, etc)

[SithKoriandr]

Hunter spoilers

 

 

Actually, you do beat the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order even story-wise, and shortly after that, a very powerful Sith, if you choose to.

 

 

If it wouldn't be possible, then why is it in the story at all, if tech classes are supposed to be inferior?

 

Mandalorians were going after Force users forever, and had successes against them (with beskar being resistant to lightsabers, etc)

 

Because it's uneven storytelling.

 

Look at Hunter "Oh hey, just stand there and be force choked...you know after all this time of being the great hunt champion"

 

No, force user doesn't tend to mean automatic win, it doesn't mean oh hey, they're as awesome with the force as the PC and some named NPCs are, however, the storylines do have the non force using PCs being pushed around quite a bit by the force users, having them going "Oh great, this will be a problem" until it's time to actually have you fight one, then have the force user forget all their abilities so you stand a chance

 

Hunter couldn't resist being force choked by a darth, you think they become better in a one on one situation with other more powerful ones, like the Emperor?

[Newyankalt]

I think most can be viable however there's some questionable things... Like would the Smuggler really be able to kill Darth Decimus or Darth Arho?? Probably not...

[RavenscarX]

You can be Force sensitive and never even know it.

You can be Force resistant.

You can even be IMMUNE to it...

 

People tend to forget that the Force exists in ALL things... BH/Trooper/Agent/Smuggler being the ones that have it at levels undetectable by Sith/Jedi as it is so low...Possibly....

Or maybe its just their close proximity to SO MANY Force users has given them the ability to fight it...We ARE surrounded by them CONSTANTLY....and in DROVES...

 

Either way,my BH,Trooper,and Agent are going to have some fun wrecking that there Zakuul...and Valky...and everything/one that gets in the way....as always.

[SithKoriandr]

The force is in everything! Yet we go about taking it all out in Episode 3-6

[Aries_cz]

People tend to forget that the Force exists in ALL things... BH/Trooper/Agent/Smuggler being the ones that have it at levels undetectable by Sith/Jedi as it is so low...Possibly....

 

I would not say undetectable, but their connection is not strong enough to actually project it into outside world

 

I am pretty certain that all classes are at least on some levels, Force sensitives, just like many people speculate Han Solo is, just not on a "Jedi" level