For those who criticize Bioware for focusing on story/solo play......

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It wasn't catastrophic either but it was clearly rushed and felt incomplete. The story itself hinted at promising ideas that sadly weren't exploited (The Sixth Line was a brilliant idea but kinda wasted). And the VA's performances were very good.

I understand not liking Ziost but I felt it was a fitting epilogue to SoR (And in general, I just liked it better than Makeb which was horribly bland on both sides).

 

I agree here and especially the rushed part. However whether or not it's complete to me depends on what is in KoTFE to see if it adequately explains the missing gaps that seemed to be a "to be continued..." but from what we have heard so far isn't being continued ( unless you believe some of the rumours, we'll see in due time I guess ).

[TravelersWay]

The problem is that too many gamers always have and always will think they are somehow a special little snow flake, they are the "real" reason the game is a success, not the player who enjoys the content they have NO interest in. So they cling to isolated statements that give validation to their particular view point. I WISH this was about those of us playing now. If it was I would not be as nervous due to the gamble BW is clearly taking, but it is what it is.

 

Unless, of course, one is a Raider or PvPer, right? In that case, it seems, those people consider themselves the real reason a game is a success or failure, as much as any other group of gamers. Make no mistake, if the new expansion was nothing but a bunch of new FPs, Ops, and PvP maps, you can bet your bottom dollar that the people complaining about the metrics now would be hailing them as the next set of Commandments.

 

The real problem is that gamers think the first sentence in your statement I quoted here applies to everyone else except for themselves.

 

What is conveniently overlooked is that 1) PvP has been the most ignored feature of the game since the Illum debacle and 2) a lot of time and effort was put forth to rework the FPs and Ops systems to make them more viable for future content. Endgame has far from been ignored with the KotFE expansion.

Edited August 20, 2015 by TravelersWay

[Jeweledleah]

Pillars of Eternity ( barely started but finishing Witcher 3 first before I continue with it but it very much has the old school hardcore feel ) and Torment: Tides of Numenera.

 

First one is out already, 2nd one is in development.

 

Edit: N/M I missed the MMO bit of MMORPG - out of curiosity then exactly what is a hardcore MMORPG from the past? Because none of the games references to the point of your post were either MMO's or if they were weren't what I would call hardcore?

 

wildstar tried the hardcore MMO shtick. it predictably didn't work, because the market for hardcore MMO's is even more niche then market for online subscription story games. moreover. it is impossible to recreate a pen and paper experience of an rpg in a video game format. why becasue you cannot program every possibility into a game given variety of human responses possible. not while having any sort of manageable budget/development time. you see the beauty of pen and paper is that DM can adjust and change the story on the fly, depending on where the players end up taking the campaign. moreover - pen and paper usually involves only couple of people playing.

 

this is why I'm not expecting much from KoFTE. because not only its impossible to program every potential player response - but they also cannot do it becasue they need to have a cohesive overall narrative going, given their plans for ongoing chapter per month story. expecting anything more than minor difference is well... unrealistic would be a kinder word I would use.

 

anyways, what does hardcore means? if one were to look at old school MMO's? apparently it means major time investment and forced grouping for pretty much everything. vast majority of players have no time for that! including those of us actualy asking for more, new group content.

 

there's nothing wrong with solo friendliness, casual friendliness. on the contrary. it a good thing, especially when it comes to IP like Star wars - an IP that cannot afford to be niche becasue its an epitome of mainstream. (that and licensing fees are a pain) but making a solo subscription game is also making it a little too niche. group content is not the enemy. group content, optional group content is something that very much enhances and gives life to an MMO. MMO's kinda need group content in addition to solo content in order to keep continuously subscribing population large enough to be profitable.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

 

What is conveniently overlooked is that 1) PvP has been the most ignored feature of the game since the Illum debacle and 2) a lot of time and effort was put forth to rework the FPs and Ops systems to make them more viable for future content. Endgame has far from been ignored with the KotFE expansion.

 

I agree with this especially the point about the PVP community.

Whilst I believe they are the smallest minority of the known groups we've discussed in this thread ( PVE/PVE/Story we can class them I guess ) they really have been given very little love in such a long time so if they were complaining of being ignored I would have to agree and I don't even PVP.

It's a shame because that last overhaul was a really opportunity to really make PVP more accessible to noobie players but I think, although they were on the right track, they really missed a large opportunity ( that's to remove all gearing bonuses etc. from the casual non ranked pvp so everyone is basically statistically even ).

[MeNaCe-NZ]

there's nothing wrong with solo friendliness, casual friendliness. on the contrary. it a good thing, especially when it comes to IP like Star wars - an IP that cannot afford to be niche becasue its an epitome of mainstream. (that and licensing fees are a pain) but making a solo subscription game is also making it a little too niche. group content is not the enemy. group content, optional group content is something that very much enhances and gives life to an MMO. MMO's kinda need group content in addition to solo content in order to keep continuously subscribing population large enough to be profitable.

 

I've asked this a few times of various people making similar points - where does it say any group content is being removed? Where does it say no more will be added?

 

That's what I don't get with a lot of the more MMO centric community members arguments - all of this stuff is coming but right now that team who would usually be part of making that new content is busy fixing up the mess that is the current OP/FP system ( to make it MUCH more accessible to people not used to doing that sort of content thus growing the player base doing it ).

 

All this talk of SWToR becoming some sort of solo subscription game is just nonsense really and comes across as little bit of spilled milk whilst development resources are temporarily put elsewhere for the benefit of the game as a whole.

[Jeweledleah]

I've asked this a few times of various people making similar points - where does it say any group content is being removed? Where does it say no more will be added?

 

That's what I don't get with a lot of the more MMO centric community members arguments - all of this stuff is coming but right now that team who would usually be part of making that new content is busy fixing up the mess that is the current OP/FP system ( to make it MUCH more accessible to people not used to doing that sort of content thus growing the player base doing it ).

 

All this talk of SWToR becoming some sort of solo subscription game is just nonsense really and comes across as little bit of spilled milk whilst development resources are temporarily put elsewhere for the benefit of the game as a whole.

 

you are coming across as much of a black and white poster as what you accuse us of being.

 

we are not saying that group content is being removed. we are saying that its going to be over a year between group content updates - even best case scenario. and when I say update, I mean NEW content. not scaling up content some of which was in game since launch.

 

main updates to group content are to scale them up to lvl 65 and... make them soloable. and last update? we had 2 relatively short ops, 2 flashpoints and 2 world bosses, one of which is our basic loot pinata. pvp hasn't been getting updates for even longer. GSF is pretty much abandoned.

 

that's it. enough newer content to finish in an evening, maybe two. for over a year, even best case scenario, because we are absolutely positively getting nothing new until some time in 2016. in fact they are not even starting work on anything new until after release of the expansion.

 

and expansion is a single story. with minor variations, but it still a single story regardless of the faction or class. a story that you are actively discouraged from grouping for.

 

and the irony is... scaling up old ops? will make them LESS accessible to people then they are right now. becasue right now, I can grab couple of friends that normally don't do group content much and we can have fun rolling though them in a smaller group, so that they can see them without any of the pressure of 8 or 16 man group. scaled up ops? have to do them with at least 8 people. as far as I know? only flashpoints are getting solo modes.

 

you claim that resources are being used for the benefit of the game as a whole. and I ask. are they? are they really?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

you are coming across as much of a black and white poster as what you accuse us of being.

 

we are not saying that group content is being removed. we are saying that its going to be over a year between group content updates - even best case scenario. and when I say update, I mean NEW content. not scaling up content some of which was in game since launch.

 

main updates to group content are to scale them up to lvl 65 and... make them soloable. and last update? we had 2 relatively short ops, 2 flashpoints and 2 world bosses, one of which is our basic loot pinata. pvp hasn't been getting updates for even longer. GSF is pretty much abandoned.

 

that's it. enough newer content to finish in an evening, maybe two. for over a year, even best case scenario, because we are absolutely positively getting nothing new until some time in 2016. in fact they are not even starting work on anything new until after release of the expansion.

 

and expansion is a single story. with minor variations, but it still a single story regardless of the faction or class. a story that you are actively discouraged from grouping for.

 

and the irony is... scaling up old ops? will make them LESS accessible to people then they are right now. becasue right now, I can grab couple of friends that normally don't do group content much and we can have fun rolling though them in a smaller group, so that they can see them without any of the pressure of 8 or 16 man group. scaled up ops? have to do them with at least 8 people. as far as I know? only flashpoints are getting solo modes.

 

you claim that resources are being used for the benefit of the game as a whole. and I ask. are they? are they really?

 

Us being who? The people who try to imply there is going to be content removed or a lack of new content added?

 

We who? You are the one posting here, why are you talking about this we business? How you come across and how someone else comes across and what they post can be completelely different so it might pay to not lump yourself in with a group of people that may not want you as their spokes person and you may not want them as yours.

 

To your point at hand. Yes you are right, no new group content for a year and then hopefully more group content, may there be a plethora.

Your previous post however in implying this game would be heading to a "solo subscription game" implies there would be no new group content, it implies there isn't any group content for people to do now.

 

It is my opinion that far more people have not done operations than what have done operations so if the changes make this more accessible to people to do this group content then great, for that majority there is a ton of fresh group content to do.

Either way it's still in the game and it still makes the comment of this game becoming solo subscription quite misleading. At no point has Bioware indicated that that is the direction they wish to take the game, the opposite in fact as they clearly said they aren't forgetting the MMO aspects but for right now it's the story content and cleaning up the way group content is presented.

 

Sure you could do the operations as they exist now with a couple of friends but then you're not really doing them as intended are you? Infact can they even really be called operations at that point? Are they an attraction or more something on the side for people with nothing better to do? I think you are REALLY speaking of a niche group of people when you start looking at people who do operations in this manner and would actually miss them greatly in comparison to the new system.

Also you're certainly not introducing your friends to the stresses of proper 8/16 person operations either in the way of team work, though I guess at least they get a taste of the mechanics.

 

Let's not forget ops aren't only being scaled up they are also being scaled down. Level 50 and want to give ToS a crack because you think you've got the mechanics sorted, go ahead - gear won't be an issue.

I think based on all that and with extra carrots on sticks like new vanity rewards plus comms and also gear drops catering specifically to your character it will make grouping for them much more popular.

 

Basically it can't get any worse as I see it, I've never seen the pug/GF scene of operations/fps quite so dead as I have this year so anything they can do to get it back to how I remember when I first started playing ( HM FP pops with a DPS within 15 minutes and there were only 4 HM FP @ 55 then - constant people looking for pug groups in fleet and all this in a pretty dead timeslot for west usa server ) the better.

The last few times I've tried I've literally managed to get nothing at all going to the point I went and PVP'd instead ( I never really PVP so wasn't too sure what I was doing but figured it out and it was fun enough though the gear factor is annoying ) at that point I've not even really bothered going back to GF or pugs out of the waste of time factor.

 

It would be safe to say BW agree with me and it's not all in my head either otherwise there would be no need for the overhaul we are getting.

 

So yes I do think all this is to the benefit of the game as a whole but that's my opinion based around limited information so far. It won't be until we all get in there and give it all a go that we can truly make educated statements.

[Jeweledleah]

I think you are confusing cause and effect.

 

yes, fewer and fewer people are pugging flashpoints and ops. why? becasue we've been pugging the same flashpoints and ops for years now. people who are interested in running them properly at level? are tired of them. making them current... yet again? is not going to fix that. after all.. this is why pugging scene is dying in a first place. becasue we keep running the same old ops. again. and again. how long have we been running TFB now? people were already sick and tired opf DF/DP by the time expansion dropped... and we found out that guess what? its on the list of weekly ops to run for ultimate commendations. still!

 

I'm posting becasue someone has to before it gets even worse. other people are just leaving for other games.

 

there are people who might like to experience ops, but find them too much at level and THOSE people might benefit from overleveling aforementioned ops. they may also have trouble getting 8 people together. and then.. there are people who would like to progress. those people don't really benefit from scaled up ops either - why? becasue stuff you've been running for years - is not really progression.

 

newer players will likely benefit becasue they haven't had a chance to experience these for years. so.. the gamble is... getting enough new players to replace old players that are leaving? is that it? that's the benefit of the game as a whole that we are talking about? and again, is it worth losing existing already paying customers for?

 

and no, I'm not making it sound like no new content ever. I'm making it sound like foreseeable focus is on adding solo content. and by the time they get back to group content... how many long time players are they going to have left? is it worth it?

 

and the worst part is...given the precedent... I highly doubt that solo story is going to hold enough people either. I have a very strong feeling that people are going to be as excited as they were before SoR was released with its class quests... and then play through the actual story and go... that's it? I was done in 10 hours. that's it bioware? that's all you got?

Edited August 21, 2015 by Jeweledleah

[Fireswraith]

Can any of us really expect anything less? I mean story is 90% of the game, end-game PVE is 9%, and PVP is 1% (these of course being my highly reputable numbers based on my proven scientific method of pulling numbers out of my butt). Story is what BioWare does best and for the most part it's always been a solo thing (exceptions like Makeb of course where you could go through it in a group). Hell the game is practically marketed as being about the 4th pillar (a story driven mmo) so kind of silly for them to not focus on story/solo. Besides no need to worry, their focus on this is just for the release of KotFE. They'll be bringing on the group stuff later.

[DarthMaulUK]

They'll be bringing on the group stuff later.

 

The problem is, there will be hardly any players left to group with by the time it arrives and IF it arrives. It will be interesting to see how may people do pay £9 a month for a single player cut scene driven 'story'.

[Fireswraith]

The problem is, there will be hardly any players left to group with by the time it arrives and IF it arrives. It will be interesting to see how may people do pay £9 a month for a single player cut scene driven 'story'.

 

Apparently a lot based on their metrics.

[ivanhedgehog]

Can any of us really expect anything less? I mean story is 90% of the game, end-game PVE is 9%, and PVP is 1% (these of course being my highly reputable numbers based on my proven scientific method of pulling numbers out of my butt). Story is what BioWare does best and for the most part it's always been a solo thing (exceptions like Makeb of course where you could go through it in a group). Hell the game is practically marketed as being about the 4th pillar (a story driven mmo) so kind of silly for them to not focus on story/solo. Besides no need to worry, their focus on this is just for the release of KotFE. They'll be bringing on the group stuff later.

 

bioware canada does story best..bioware austin is not the same people..maybe they will prove worthy....find out in a few months

[Kurkina]

The problem is that too many gamers always have and always will think they are somehow a special little snow flake, they are the "real" reason the game is a success, not the player who enjoys the content they have NO interest in. So they cling to isolated statements that give validation to their particular view point. I WISH this was about those of us playing now. If it was I would not be as nervous due to the gamble BW is clearly taking, but it is what it is.

 

This describes many of the vocal story-supporters to a tee. They think KotFE is "for them", but it is not. I agree wholeheartedly with Gisallo's analysis, KotFE is about bringing in new players, just as Pandaria did, and the chief mechanism to do this is to streamline and simplify the game.

 

"Bioware doesn't know how to read their own metrics. I know better, because I don't have access to these metrics,...

 

Khryn, this is sophomoric and shows that you have no ability to analyze or read between the lines of BW's hype. But thanks for your contribution.

 

Define "a few". Also where does it say the only development for the foreseeable future is single-player story? They've blatantly stated they will be working on operations in the future ( thus foreseeable ) as well as all toher types of MMO content. They've not once stated they won't be developing any more MMO content so stop talking trash that has no basis in reality.

 

A "few" is for example 12 hours over 3 months of subscription time. You know, compared to the 40-60 hours that you get from a full-fledged single-player RPG. As for their blatant statements, I think BW has a long way to go towards credibility for their blatant statements. If you believe them, that is your prerogative, but you should examine the source of your motivations for being so trusting when all of this KotFE business is just a sick money-grab.

 

I get it YOU aren't happy, so just quit already.

 

Just for the sake of order, I am quitting, as I have stated elsewhere. I am still playing because I bought a six month sub just before the KotFE announcement.

 

Stop trying to pretend like everyone else is somehow soo intellectually inferior they have no idea what they are paying for and the wool is completely pulled over their eyes.

 

I'm not of the opinion that anyone in these threads is intellectually superior or inferior. We're just talking. Maybe you should examine the source of this emotive outburst. BUT ... Yes, I do believe that BW is pulling the wool over people's eyes. The reason that those people cannot see that is because they've had the wool pulled over their eyes.

 

and the irony is... scaling up old ops? will make them LESS accessible to people then they are right now.

 

Bang on right. First of all, I have great fears that BW will not get the scaling right, I fear that there will be bugs and balance issues all over the place. Secondly, scaling them up just means that they are putting an entry-barrier on ALL ops, not just potential new ones.

 

Story is what BioWare does best

 

In that case, we are doomed. From Forged Alliances through SoR to Ziost, the story has been a disjointed, alibistic mess with no real narrative or ending. Also, telling the story through cutscenes as opposed to the players actions does not inspire my confidence in BW being able to create a story where "choices matter" in KotFE.

 

---------------------------

 

To lighten the mood a little, let us remind ourselves of

astute satirical analysis that came out not long ago. I can't wait to see what the Spanish Lauging Man comes up with for KotFE! Edited August 21, 2015 by Kurkina

[TravelersWay]

I think you are confusing cause and effect.

 

yes, fewer and fewer people are pugging flashpoints and ops. why? becasue we've been pugging the same flashpoints and ops for years now. people who are interested in running them properly at level? are tired of them. making them current... yet again? is not going to fix that. after all.. this is why pugging scene is dying in a first place. becasue we keep running the same old ops. again. and again. how long have we been running TFB now? people were already sick and tired opf DF/DP by the time expansion dropped... and we found out that guess what? its on the list of weekly ops to run for ultimate commendations. still!

 

But you see the problem is that adding new FPs and Ops won't solve that problem either. It just makes the older content even less relevant than before, and therefore even harder to find a group to do. What BioWare has done is ensure that all that content remains relevant and rewarding to do, regardless of how much new content is added to it in the future. Now the actual mechanics of how the scaling systems will work can be a debate worthy topic, especially after we are given more details about it, but as someone is has been a long-term supporter and participant of end game in MMOs, I for one am glad for what BW has done here, and recognize the need for it, and realize that the implementation of it necessitated putting off new content for a bit longer. I have absolutely no problem with that.

 

Let's not forget that PvP and PvE Space have been the two most neglected features in this game. To act like raids are, or have gotten, the short end of the stick here are asinine and, quite frankly, make me embarrassed to be an Endgamer.

[Draqsko]

Bang on right. First of all, I have great fears that BW will not get the scaling right, I fear that there will be bugs and balance issues all over the place.

 

I don't think anyone expects it to be bug free at launch, none of the other ops ever were they all had little bugs if not game breaking ones. The issue is how fast do they fix it, that was the problem with SoR was how long it went before those bugs got fixed and one should have been defined as a critical bug with all hands on deck fix. They'll lose people if it is not fixed quickly, simply because there is no lower tier ops to run like 50/55 when people had issues clearing Rav/ToS.

[ivanhedgehog]

Unless, of course, one is a Raider or PvPer, right? In that case, it seems, those people consider themselves the real reason a game is a success or failure, as much as any other group of gamers. Make no mistake, if the new expansion was nothing but a bunch of new FPs, Ops, and PvP maps, you can bet your bottom dollar that the people complaining about the metrics now would be hailing them as the next set of Commandments.

 

The real problem is that gamers think the first sentence in your statement I quoted here applies to everyone else except for themselves.

 

What is conveniently overlooked is that 1) PvP has been the most ignored feature of the game since the Illum debacle and 2) a lot of time and effort was put forth to rework the FPs and Ops systems to make them more viable for future content. Endgame has far from been ignored with the KotFE expansion.

 

What it comes down to is that the devs made a decision long ago in a conference room far away(in austin) to go with story. They used "metrics" to tell us why they did it, but that could mean anything and doesnt really matter at this point. There is absolutely no chance they could change it even if they wanted too. I wish they would start talking about it instead of acting like they are victims of a zombie invasion, but that is a whole nother topic. They took a gamble on what would succeed and we will see in about 6 months if it worked. arguing about unkown metrix will get us nowhere.

[Kurkina]

The issue is how fast do they fix it, that was the problem with SoR was how long it went before those bugs got fixed and one should have been defined as a critical bug with all hands on deck fix.

 

Exactly. If many encounters in Rav/ToS were bugged for so long, how long will it take to fix bugs in not only 2 but 9 Ops?

 

They took a gamble on what would succeed and we will see in about 6 months if it worked. arguing about unkown metrix will get us nowhere.

 

You know what would be interesting? If they released those metrics that they used, in their entirety. You know why they won't? Not because of some coorporate secret, but because then the statistically inclined among us could take those numbers and make them verifiably show whatever we wanted, just like they did.

[TUXs]

I think you are confusing cause and effect.

 

yes, fewer and fewer people are pugging flashpoints and ops. why? becasue we've been pugging the same flashpoints and ops for years now. people who are interested in running them properly at level? are tired of them. making them current... yet again? is not going to fix that. after all.. this is why pugging scene is dying in a first place. becasue we keep running the same old ops. again. and again. how long have we been running TFB now? people were already sick and tired opf DF/DP by the time expansion dropped... and we found out that guess what? its on the list of weekly ops to run for ultimate commendations. still!

 

I'm posting becasue someone has to before it gets even worse. other people are just leaving for other games.

 

there are people who might like to experience ops, but find them too much at level and THOSE people might benefit from overleveling aforementioned ops. they may also have trouble getting 8 people together. and then.. there are people who would like to progress. those people don't really benefit from scaled up ops either - why? becasue stuff you've been running for years - is not really progression.

 

newer players will likely benefit becasue they haven't had a chance to experience these for years. so.. the gamble is... getting enough new players to replace old players that are leaving? is that it? that's the benefit of the game as a whole that we are talking about? and again, is it worth losing existing already paying customers for?

 

and no, I'm not making it sound like no new content ever. I'm making it sound like foreseeable focus is on adding solo content. and by the time they get back to group content... how many long time players are they going to have left? is it worth it?

 

and the worst part is...given the precedent... I highly doubt that solo story is going to hold enough people either. I have a very strong feeling that people are going to be as excited as they were before SoR was released with its class quests... and then play through the actual story and go... that's it? I was done in 10 hours. that's it bioware? that's all you got?

Fantastic post!!! Absolutely summarizes my feelings as well.

[TUXs]

You know what would be interesting? If they released those metrics that they used, in their entirety. You know why they won't? Not because of some coorporate secret, but because then the statistically inclined among us could take those numbers and make them verifiably show whatever we wanted, just like they did.

So true. Numbers are just numbers...they don't tell the story behind them.

[Pagy]

how does one classify a player?

one who is a sub? f2p?

one that logs in at least once a month? a week? a year?

while i dont think that end-game raiders or end-game pvpers make up a sizeable portion of a game's playerbase, they make up a sizeable portion of the game's "very active" playerbase. these are people that log a lot of hours.

for an mmo to survive, it requires a healthy, consistent population.

if you look at number and types of players, you can't automatically put more value on the greater segments; they are players that play only a couple hours a month.

how does one weigh the value of the minority that log A LOT of hours that compose a larger portion of the population in fleet, instances at any given time?

 

EAware giving us more solo story? ok, i'm sure it will be fun. it will be shorter than I think they want us to believe, but it will be fun. but providing no pvp content and no ops content is completely unacceptable, esp given the mmo options out there. they are repeating mistakes of the past. without endgame content, people leave.

their lack of information lends credence to the whole "this is a marketing ploy to keep players subbed as long as possible before the patch lands" viewpoint.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Pagy

[Ghisallo]

I'm late to this party, but that first page is pure comedy gold.

 

Paraphrased:

 

"Bioware doesn't know how to read their own metrics. I know better, because I don't have access to these metrics, but my sample size of myself, plus a guildie, and 3 people from general chat agreed with me when I whined about X, so it must mean that EVERYONE else has the same opinion and likes/dislikes as me, so therefore Bioware must be reading their metrics wrong."

 

I am sure they know how to read them but here is the issue...ALL companies twist metrics for marketing purposes. If you look at all of the other stuff BW has said and is doing on this issue, they contradict the metric comment.

 

How do you tell when anyone is being 100% truthful? You look at all of their other statements and actions then see if they are consistent. If they are not you then look at them and say " okay what motive would be consistent? Hence my conclusion, which is different than both sides tbh.

[Ghisallo]

Unless, of course, one is a Raider or PvPer, right? In that case, it seems, those people consider themselves the real reason a game is a success or failure, as much as any other group of gamers. Make no mistake, if the new expansion was nothing but a bunch of new FPs, Ops, and PvP maps, you can bet your bottom dollar that the people complaining about the metrics now would be hailing them as the next set of Commandments.

 

The real problem is that gamers think the first sentence in your statement I quoted here applies to everyone else except for themselves.

 

What is conveniently overlooked is that 1) PvP has been the most ignored feature of the game since the Illum debacle and 2) a lot of time and effort was put forth to rework the FPs and Ops systems to make them more viable for future content. Endgame has far from been ignored with the KotFE expansion.

 

Please don't put words in my mouth in some twisted attempt to make me seem something I am not. Players who identify as "end game raider" do the exact same thing. if you would actually read a DAMN thing I write you would see I say over and over and over again exactly what you say in the last paragraph. I use this as proof, that those who feel that this expac is for the "story fan" and that this is SWTOR going forward, are wrong.

 

All I am saying is "this is not about any current player, story or end game fan. So do not expect this to become a Single Player RPG because they are going to make new end.game content. This expac is about attracting and maintaining new player BUT there is a risk that in focus on this they annoy enough current players to do some damage"

 

This includes story fans. I know a lot of em that are pissed they may lose their favorite companions and that the story is again going to be a shared story. Others who think this is a full on paradigm change will complain the minute they start working on the new OPs they promised.

 

I don't know if you are English second language, just can't imagine that someone would identify not as a "story player" or and "end game raider", or simply see anyone who does not agree with you as against you with zero sense of nuance. I am one of those people who likes it all (except PvP here).

 

If I was all about the OPs I would be saying how this means DOOM!!!!!! How they are screwing their players. I say nothing of the sort. I simply call this expac for what it is... That it is about getting new players in the door while trying to minimize the angst to existing players.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Ghisallo

[AlrikFassbauer]

So do not expect this to become a Single Player RPG

 

Translation : "This is not Armageddon coming over us !"

 

Okay, I'm in an MMO forum here -

 

- but Offline Single Player RPGs look as if they are treated like an illness, or a plague, or a curse here ...

 

*shakes head*

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I think you are confusing cause and effect.

 

yes, fewer and fewer people are pugging flashpoints and ops. why? becasue we've been pugging the same flashpoints and ops for years now. people who are interested in running them properly at level? are tired of them. making them current... yet again? is not going to fix that. after all.. this is why pugging scene is dying in a first place. becasue we keep running the same old ops. again. and again. how long have we been running TFB now? people were already sick and tired opf DF/DP by the time expansion dropped... and we found out that guess what? its on the list of weekly ops to run for ultimate commendations. still!

 

We who? We the minority? If they cater to a majority and get them doing ops and things like that they've never done before and GROWS the PVE community then it's beneficial not negative.

I get it, it doesn't cater to YOU, cut this we crap.

 

ToS/RAV came out and I expected a big surge in pugging but it never happened, it actually made things more dead because the ops that were active weren't gear relevant anymore. People were scared to try pug rav/tos because everyone was saying it was just too hard. When I finally did get around to trying them they weren't anywhere near as hard as the community had made out. Someone made it clear a few buggy bits to avoid and other special features of boss fights etc. to be aware of ( you know, the same thing pug groups have been doing FOREVER in this game ) and no major issues getting through at all. All that fear being spread around about these ops was quite literally over hyped, even today it continues and it's easy to see why raiding is in the state it is.

 

Going back to my point on gear though, it was dropping relevant ops to irrelevant levels that made pugging so dead imo. Having only 2 ops that were supposedly "soo hard to pug" just turned everyone away from ops.

Bringing them ALL back to relevant levels with relevant gear can only but help - sure you might be bored, but WE aren't ( see what I did there, used your own "we" point , neat eh? ).

 

Next bit of your you are repeating yourself for the most part without addressing what I posted at all so nothing really new to add in that case.

 

and no, I'm not making it sound like no new content ever. I'm making it sound like foreseeable focus is on adding solo content. and by the time they get back to group content... how many long time players are they going to have left? is it worth it?

 

The usual doom n gloom we always hear about when something new happens, how many will still be here? Plenty because here you are playing now when "new" content is at an all time low yet supposedly when they do add new content in KoTFE then THAT is what is going to make people quit heh.

 

You forget for all the doom n gloom people preach they are still subbed to do it meaning they are playing now when there are no new ops or kotfe ... if they were ever going to unsub one would think it would have been in recent months but nope, still here preaching the doom n gloom. Funny stuff.

 

and the worst part is...given the precedent... I highly doubt that solo story is going to hold enough people either. I have a very strong feeling that people are going to be as excited as they were before SoR was released with its class quests... and then play through the actual story and go... that's it? I was done in 10 hours. that's it bioware? that's all you got?

 

Time will tell, I haven't any knowledge other than "at least 1 hour of cutscenes" basically for each chapter to base how long the content will be. I must say, whilst not directed at you, I find it super funny when people try to purposely rush through content in one sitting spacebaring it all then try justify there argument with "is that it?". Thosep eople make me laugh too.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

A "few" is for example 12 hours over 3 months of subscription time. You know, compared to the 40-60 hours that you get from a full-fledged single-player RPG. As for their blatant statements, I think BW has a long way to go towards credibility for their blatant statements. If you believe them, that is your prerogative, but you should examine the source of your motivations for being so trusting when all of this KotFE business is just a sick money-grab.

 

And if it's 40 hours? 80 hours? Stop making assumptions just to scare monger people towards your point of view.

The source of my motivations? I play the game. Simple.

I stop and look at EVERYTHING I get for my sub fee, it's HUGE.

 

You don't agree, you feel you aren't getting value for money, sweet as, done.

 

Still I find it funny you bought 6 months sub when there was less "new" content around and decide to quit when they announce more new content. When you bought that sub were they promising you any new end game content? Probably not, you just assumed it would be coming?

As with the above assumption your assumptions you make about Bioware's motivations and what KoTFE and what will happen to the future of the game etc. will be like will most likely turn out to be wrong.

 

 

I'm not of the opinion that anyone in these threads is intellectually superior or inferior. We're just talking. Maybe you should examine the source of this emotive outburst. BUT ... Yes, I do believe that BW is pulling the wool over people's eyes. The reason that those people cannot see that is because they've had the wool pulled over their eyes.

 

Maybe read what you just wrote and you'll see exactly how you come across as trying to put yourself as somehow intellectually superior "You all have the wool pulled over yours eyes but I don't, I see the truth!" although in reality it comes across as just another conspiracy theorist.